Nothing of what you just wrote has any base in reality. You must realize that if we could extract iron more efficiently than we already are with the technology we have... we would. Unless there's no need for the extra iron, of course. Capitalism self regulates itself here, which is one of the best things about the system overall (the self regulating nature).
In any case, the problem you still have before you is to explain how this all would come to be. How would you suddenly transform current standard of living to something magnitudes better for everyone? You haven't answered this and it doesn't look like you ever will. Sweeping statements wont do, you need to explain the entire system. (Everyone already knows how capitalism works, so at least you don't have to explain that to us aswell) And what the fuck is the "yearly replenishment rate"? The planet has finite resources, unless you bring in more from the universe somewhere.
Also, if you don't already know what shapes human behaviour how can you claim to have a model that accomodates everyone? Concidering you would replace democracy you need to be damn sure that you know what you're doing, because democracy is the fusion of different ideas (and to some extent world views). If your system only includes one world view and you don't get everyone to accept it then you will have conflict eventually. I concede that this (possibly) could be avoided if your fantasy about insane living standards could come to life, but it can't at our current stage of societal and technological development.
How would you suddenly transform current standard of living to something magnitudes better for everyone?
I thought it was obvious? By removing money. its in the video you know.
I suggest watching the zeitgeist movies + the clip of free world charter they already explain alot of things being asked here im more intrested in knowing what you think about what you have seen and specifcly break it down.
and if you wanna know more about what shapes human behaviour, Its also getting tiring of plugging the same stuff because people dont watch it. If you dont wanna take in the information given to you then dont waste your time continue writing in this thread.
Xeo1 also have excellents plugs on the first page watch them then come back and add something besides communist russia and base less truths.
Except that people throughout this thread have been telling you that money isn't the problem and it never has been. Things will have worth even if you remove money. You'll just value it in other terms, be it gold, sugar, spices or something else. It's a redicolous notion that money would be the root of all evil, and that's why noone is taking you or this charter seriously.
On May 10 2012 04:52 HellRoxYa wrote: Except that people throughout this thread have been telling you that money isn't the problem and it never has been. Things will have worth even if you remove money. You'll just value it in other terms, be it gold, sugar, spices or something else. It's a redicolous notion that money would be the root of all evil, and that's why noone is taking you or this charter seriously.
Your lack of understand is constricting you watch some stuff and read some stuff. Consume some of this stuff and come back i promise you even if you dont belive non of the stuff you will at least have better questions godday.
On May 10 2012 04:52 HellRoxYa wrote: Except that people throughout this thread have been telling you that money isn't the problem and it never has been. Things will have worth even if you remove money. You'll just value it in other terms, be it gold, sugar, spices or something else. It's a redicolous notion that money would be the root of all evil, and that's why noone is taking you or this charter seriously.
Your lack of understand is constricting you watch some stuff and read some stuff. Consume some of this stuff and come back i promise you even if you dont belive non of the stuff you will at least have better questions godday.
Just answer the question in your own words. If you can't articulate a point on your own, then you do not understand the concept enough to debate it.
is it so hard to understand that EVERYTHING is about profit? the dentist will xray your whole head every 6 months to claim insurance money, automakers deliberately make cars with low mpg to work together with oil companies, products such as razors are made of short-lasting materials in order to maintain cyclical consumption.
only when we remove the money system and the value system that it reinforces can we create a sustainable, efficient, and fair social system.
I think I got dumber watching that video...None of these ideas are truly new. Most of the first half of the video is just recycling Marx's early ideas on freedom and working. It's an interesting concept that works for some people, but does not for others.
The other problem I have is how do we move on from this point now? If we get rid of money, how do we advance further with technology to better ourselves? Sure, getting rid of money means I may have to do less work, and could have more enjoyment now, but what other opportunities are we as a species passing up if we do this?
The answer is: We don't move on. Sure, we may have a discovery here or there, but this would kill our technology boom that we have going on right now.
Here's some easy equations for a simple collective ownership model:
Total Value In >= Total Value Out.
Meaning all the work we put in will at maximum create as much stuff as that work was worth. There are some inefficiencies, for example if you create a computer in China it's still the same computer in America, but you need to deliver it to America so extra value needs to be put into the computer to deliver it without increasing its actual material value, or sometimes mistakes are made and some resources are wasted, and etc.
Total Value In = SUM(individual values in)
Total value of the work/resources we put in is the sum of all the work/resources used by all the individuals.
Total Value Out = SUM(individual values out)
Total value of the material posessions we get as a result of our work is the sum of the values of all the material posessions everyone has.
Now we know that the best case scenario:
Total Value In = Total Value Out
is impossible, so it's really:
Total Value In > Total Value Out
So for at least 1 person
Value In > Value Out is true, so why would he buy into this system?
Now why don't you give me an example of this "deceptively simple" (quoting your video) algorithm which will accomodate for the redistribution of resources "fairly" given these constraints.
On May 10 2012 15:05 Kiarip wrote: Here's some easy equations for a simple collective ownership model:
Total Value In >= Total Value Out.
Meaning all the work we put in will at maximum create as much stuff as that work was worth. There are some inefficiencies, for example if you create a computer in China it's still the same computer in America, but you need to deliver it to America so extra value needs to be put into the computer to deliver it without increasing its actual material value, or sometimes mistakes are made and some resources are wasted, and etc.
Total Value In = SUM(individual values in)
Total value of the work/resources we put in is the sum of all the work/resources used by all the individuals.
Total Value Out = SUM(individual values out)
Total value of the material posessions we get as a result of our work is the sum of the values of all the material posessions everyone has.
Now we know that the best case scenario:
Total Value In = Total Value Out
is impossible, so it's really:
Total Value In > Total Value Out
So for at least 1 person
Value In > Value Out is true, so why would he buy into this system?
Now why don't you give me an example of this "deceptively simple" (quoting your video) algorithm which will accomodate for the redistribution of resources "fairly" given these constraints.
That's a pretty good post right there, probably ingested too much alcohol to discuss the finer points though. I gather capitalism is an efficient production model, and self regulates, supply/demand etc. Inefficiencies do exist though right, I mean market forces do a good job of calibrating things, but we live in a world of information asymmetry so it cannot always be 100% in this regard? If I'm an idiot on this I do apologise.
Pretty annoyed I didn't get to study economics actually as I feel so illiterate on the subject, are there any writers on the subject that you'd recommend to the lay person?
How would you suddenly transform current standard of living to something magnitudes better for everyone?
I thought it was obvious? By removing money. its in the video you know.
I suggest watching the zeitgeist movies + the clip of free world charter they already explain alot of things being asked here im more intrested in knowing what you think about what you have seen and specifcly break it down.
and if you wanna know more about what shapes human behaviour, Its also getting tiring of plugging the same stuff because people dont watch it. If you dont wanna take in the information given to you then dont waste your time continue writing in this thread.
Xeo1 also have excellents plugs on the first page watch them then come back and add something besides communist russia and base less truths. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb_bTUJp39o
I'm afraid I cannot watch the video because I am away from my computer right now.
I'd like to know what the video shows about how the removal of money would drastically increase the standard of living for everyone, and reasons that you believe the proposed change would work, supported by peer-reviewed journals.
The market system sure regulates it makes sure we never achieve abundance or effiency because that would be unsubstainable to the market but great for human beings.
The market system sure regulates it makes sure we never achieve abundance or effiency because that would be unsubstainable to the market but great for human beings.
Exactly! That's why life in the US and Europe is soooo crappy compared to the rest of the world.
We'll never get what we want as long as we hold onto outdated ideas like producing until marginal revenue = marginal cost. It's just outdated for this day and age.
The market system sure regulates it makes sure we never achieve abundance or effiency because that would be unsubstainable to the market but great for human beings.
Exactly! That's why life in the US and Europe is soooo crappy compared to the rest of the world.
We'll never get what we want as long as we hold onto outdated ideas like producing until marginal revenue = marginal cost. It's just outdated for this day and age.
Like how you would transform society over to this new model?
It is a transition from our current system to a RBE it happends mainly through social reforms such as Free health care,dependant wellfare system and free education.
a value shift needs to hit the status quo where people wanna do what they have intrests in rather then what will pay the best(Which is becoming largely accepted already)
How this new model explains away resource dependancy (we are still bound by the resources we can extract from the earth)?
I never claimed it would but we would use our resources more effiecntly coupled with new technology to maximise the yield we can extract more iron then people could 1000 years ago. The goal is to not exceed the planets yearly replinisment rate of resources and find substitiues for those we have to mine no matter what.
this proposal would count as an ideology, and people who oppose it may or may not cooperate and may or may not feel so strongly against it that they'll take up arms against it.
There is no poltical left or right way to build an airplane we will use the scientific method to decide what works and what does not. That involves finding out what shapes human behaviour aswel as constructing an infrastructure that is easy to change,maintain and recycle as needed.
Nobody will take up arms against a system that offers them a chance to participate in real change aswel as being feed,housed and offered freedoms no human could imagine today. Your standard of living in this system will be so extremly high you can even fathom it today and if you could odds are you would be out right knocking door to door like a jehovas witness.
People don't like change. Plain and simple. That right there is enough to get some people up in arms over things. In order to change the structure of society and business on the fundamental level, you are going to have to deal with an immense amount of resistance. Nothing short of a World War would be enough to move in a direction that changes our world in such a huge way.
The market system sure regulates it makes sure we never achieve abundance or effiency because that would be unsubstainable to the market but great for human beings.
Exactly! That's why life in the US and Europe is soooo crappy compared to the rest of the world.
We'll never get what we want as long as we hold onto outdated ideas like producing until marginal revenue = marginal cost. It's just outdated for this day and age.
Once everything is free marginal revenue and marginal cost will always = 0 so you can produce anywhere between 0 and infinity of whatever you want. You will be unconstrained.
People don't like change. Plain and simple. That right there is enough to get some people up in arms over things. In order to change the structure of society and business on the fundamental level, you are going to have to deal with an immense amount of resistance. Nothing short of a World War would be enough to move in a direction that changes our world in such a huge way.
There things are commen sense and self evident more and more people are reaching this level of understanding,But It is scary tho since it is the biggest shift in conciousness since ever its the end of our predatory(Competetive phase) and the start of civilization(Co-operative).
And if your reading this and deciding to troll away which ive seen alot in this tread remember this one day this will be commen sense to you and then you will be ashamed of how indoctrinated you were, so please save yourself from that emotion.
"Money can and does motivate people to work, yet large performance-related bonuses can reduce our personal interest in tasks and potentially undermine performance."
Good argument for paying managers less so that more can stay where it belongs - with the shareholders.
EPT![[image loading]](http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/468144_412036315496487_212514318782022_1286934_2021700133_o.jpg)
it makes sure we never achieve abundance or effiency because that would be unsubstainable to the market but great for human beings. 
