• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 08:53
CET 14:53
KST 22:53
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners7Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival13TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting12[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11
Community News
Starcraft, SC2, HoTS, WC3, returning to Blizzcon!29$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship5[BSL21] RO32 Group Stage4Weekly Cups (Oct 26-Nov 2): Liquid, Clem, Solar win; LAN in Philly2Weekly Cups (Oct 20-26): MaxPax, Clem, Creator win9
StarCraft 2
General
Starcraft, SC2, HoTS, WC3, returning to Blizzcon! TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners 5.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8) RotterdaM "Serral is the GOAT, and it's not close" Weekly Cups (Oct 20-26): MaxPax, Clem, Creator win
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship Merivale 8 Open - LAN - Stellar Fest Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened Mutation # 496 Endless Infection Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions [BSL21] RO32 Group Stage BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ SnOw's ASL S20 Finals Review
Tourneys
[ASL20] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO32 Group B - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO32 Group A - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta PvZ map balance How to stay on top of macro? Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Dawn of War IV Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread Dating: How's your luck?
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Coffee x Performance in Espo…
TrAiDoS
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Why we need SC3
Hildegard
Reality "theory" prov…
perfectspheres
Our Last Hope in th…
KrillinFromwales
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1633 users

The Free World Charter - Page 45

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Prev 1 43 44 45 46 47 75 Next
DeliCiousVP
Profile Joined September 2011
Sweden343 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-08 16:46:21
May 08 2012 16:43 GMT
#881
On May 09 2012 01:17 Felnarion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2012 23:55 Tunkeg wrote:
On May 08 2012 23:26 Felnarion wrote:
On May 08 2012 23:14 Tunkeg wrote:
Maybe sometime in the future humans will have become intelligent enough to work out a system that can make capitalism history. The flaws of capitalism is many, but as of right now it is the best system. There is much I would like to say on the topic, but I will summarize it:

- The differences in the world are perverted.
- Our workcapital is spent wrong.
- The need of the many should trumph the greed of the few.
- People working together towards a common goal and a common increase in quality of life have an incredible work ethics.
- No such change will ever occur until the humanrace have evolved past greed and power (Not likely that it will happend).


- The differences in the world are perverted.
- Our workcapital is spent in a way you don't like
- The need of the many should trumph the greed of the few.
How many for how few? How much is one person's need worth versus one person's greed?
- People working together towards a common goal and a common increase in quality of life have an incredible work ethics.
Yeah they do, as long as they feel they will benefit in proportion to the work they give.
- No such change will ever occur until the humanrace have evolved past greed and power (Not likely that it will happend).
Not everyone considers losing the need for motivation an evolution.

Something you need to realize is that capitalism already answers these questions.

Something else to realize? Everyone in the world can't have a refridgerator, and a gaming computer, and a cell phone, and microwaves, and cars, and tablets, and 2 TVs, big monitors, a stereo system, surround sound.

You know, all these things everyone around here takes for granted? You've gotta give those up if you want the entire world to have a "reasonable" existence.



If you rewrite Our workcapital is spent in a way you don't like to Our workcapital is spent in a way you think is wrong we agree. I neither like or dislike it. For me personal I don't care if people spend their lifes as hairdressers and make up artists, it doesn't affect me at all. But I think that is wrong use of workcapital.

Need is more worth than greed period.

You think the only motivation we have is greed and power then? If it is we certantly need to evolve.

Capitalism is not perfect, and never will be (and certantly don't have the answer for all questions). It is however better than all other systems we have had thus far...

Sadly not all can have all of that, as we are fairly overpopulated. Another reason why a better system would be preferable.

I don't have to give up anything as there won't be any changes in my lifetime. I would not work towards such changes either, I picked the golden ticket in the lottery and was born in a country where I can have all those things no matter what I do. I am as greedy and as selfish as the rest (maybe even more), but I do realize that what is best for me, not nessarily is best for the world as a whole.


Capitalism has given what we enjoy today, if you like it or not. Where capitalism is not allowed to thrive, people suffer in far greater numbers. If Capitalism isn't perfect, every other idea is even less perfect...and this OP? It isn't even "Good"


That is like saying kings were responsible for whatever their subjects invented and it was thanks to the king it did Technology is responsibile for our improvements regardless of what system we use, The system proposed is just superior and adapted to 21st century not the 19th century like our current system.

And if you still belive captalism is the most driving force in innovation your even wrong there it has been proven time and time again that health and stability creates greater minds then monetary based incentive.
www.youtube.com/user/DeliCiousTZM
Felnarion
Profile Joined December 2011
442 Posts
May 08 2012 16:56 GMT
#882
On May 09 2012 01:43 DeliCiousVP wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2012 01:17 Felnarion wrote:
On May 08 2012 23:55 Tunkeg wrote:
On May 08 2012 23:26 Felnarion wrote:
On May 08 2012 23:14 Tunkeg wrote:
Maybe sometime in the future humans will have become intelligent enough to work out a system that can make capitalism history. The flaws of capitalism is many, but as of right now it is the best system. There is much I would like to say on the topic, but I will summarize it:

- The differences in the world are perverted.
- Our workcapital is spent wrong.
- The need of the many should trumph the greed of the few.
- People working together towards a common goal and a common increase in quality of life have an incredible work ethics.
- No such change will ever occur until the humanrace have evolved past greed and power (Not likely that it will happend).


- The differences in the world are perverted.
- Our workcapital is spent in a way you don't like
- The need of the many should trumph the greed of the few.
How many for how few? How much is one person's need worth versus one person's greed?
- People working together towards a common goal and a common increase in quality of life have an incredible work ethics.
Yeah they do, as long as they feel they will benefit in proportion to the work they give.
- No such change will ever occur until the humanrace have evolved past greed and power (Not likely that it will happend).
Not everyone considers losing the need for motivation an evolution.

Something you need to realize is that capitalism already answers these questions.

Something else to realize? Everyone in the world can't have a refridgerator, and a gaming computer, and a cell phone, and microwaves, and cars, and tablets, and 2 TVs, big monitors, a stereo system, surround sound.

You know, all these things everyone around here takes for granted? You've gotta give those up if you want the entire world to have a "reasonable" existence.



If you rewrite Our workcapital is spent in a way you don't like to Our workcapital is spent in a way you think is wrong we agree. I neither like or dislike it. For me personal I don't care if people spend their lifes as hairdressers and make up artists, it doesn't affect me at all. But I think that is wrong use of workcapital.

Need is more worth than greed period.

You think the only motivation we have is greed and power then? If it is we certantly need to evolve.

Capitalism is not perfect, and never will be (and certantly don't have the answer for all questions). It is however better than all other systems we have had thus far...

Sadly not all can have all of that, as we are fairly overpopulated. Another reason why a better system would be preferable.

I don't have to give up anything as there won't be any changes in my lifetime. I would not work towards such changes either, I picked the golden ticket in the lottery and was born in a country where I can have all those things no matter what I do. I am as greedy and as selfish as the rest (maybe even more), but I do realize that what is best for me, not nessarily is best for the world as a whole.


Capitalism has given what we enjoy today, if you like it or not. Where capitalism is not allowed to thrive, people suffer in far greater numbers. If Capitalism isn't perfect, every other idea is even less perfect...and this OP? It isn't even "Good"


That is like saying kings were responsible for whatever their subjects invented and it was thanks to the king it did Technology is responsibile for our improvements regardless of what system we use, The system proposed is just superior and adapted to 21st century not the 19th century like our current system.

And if you still belive captalism is the most driving force in innovation your even wrong there it has been proven time and time again that health and stability creates greater minds then monetary based incentive.


Proven time and time again where in pretend-land?
DeliCiousVP
Profile Joined September 2011
Sweden343 Posts
May 08 2012 17:35 GMT
#883
On May 09 2012 01:56 Felnarion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2012 01:43 DeliCiousVP wrote:
On May 09 2012 01:17 Felnarion wrote:
On May 08 2012 23:55 Tunkeg wrote:
On May 08 2012 23:26 Felnarion wrote:
On May 08 2012 23:14 Tunkeg wrote:
Maybe sometime in the future humans will have become intelligent enough to work out a system that can make capitalism history. The flaws of capitalism is many, but as of right now it is the best system. There is much I would like to say on the topic, but I will summarize it:

- The differences in the world are perverted.
- Our workcapital is spent wrong.
- The need of the many should trumph the greed of the few.
- People working together towards a common goal and a common increase in quality of life have an incredible work ethics.
- No such change will ever occur until the humanrace have evolved past greed and power (Not likely that it will happend).


- The differences in the world are perverted.
- Our workcapital is spent in a way you don't like
- The need of the many should trumph the greed of the few.
How many for how few? How much is one person's need worth versus one person's greed?
- People working together towards a common goal and a common increase in quality of life have an incredible work ethics.
Yeah they do, as long as they feel they will benefit in proportion to the work they give.
- No such change will ever occur until the humanrace have evolved past greed and power (Not likely that it will happend).
Not everyone considers losing the need for motivation an evolution.

Something you need to realize is that capitalism already answers these questions.

Something else to realize? Everyone in the world can't have a refridgerator, and a gaming computer, and a cell phone, and microwaves, and cars, and tablets, and 2 TVs, big monitors, a stereo system, surround sound.

You know, all these things everyone around here takes for granted? You've gotta give those up if you want the entire world to have a "reasonable" existence.



If you rewrite Our workcapital is spent in a way you don't like to Our workcapital is spent in a way you think is wrong we agree. I neither like or dislike it. For me personal I don't care if people spend their lifes as hairdressers and make up artists, it doesn't affect me at all. But I think that is wrong use of workcapital.

Need is more worth than greed period.

You think the only motivation we have is greed and power then? If it is we certantly need to evolve.

Capitalism is not perfect, and never will be (and certantly don't have the answer for all questions). It is however better than all other systems we have had thus far...

Sadly not all can have all of that, as we are fairly overpopulated. Another reason why a better system would be preferable.

I don't have to give up anything as there won't be any changes in my lifetime. I would not work towards such changes either, I picked the golden ticket in the lottery and was born in a country where I can have all those things no matter what I do. I am as greedy and as selfish as the rest (maybe even more), but I do realize that what is best for me, not nessarily is best for the world as a whole.


Capitalism has given what we enjoy today, if you like it or not. Where capitalism is not allowed to thrive, people suffer in far greater numbers. If Capitalism isn't perfect, every other idea is even less perfect...and this OP? It isn't even "Good"


That is like saying kings were responsible for whatever their subjects invented and it was thanks to the king it did Technology is responsibile for our improvements regardless of what system we use, The system proposed is just superior and adapted to 21st century not the 19th century like our current system.

And if you still belive captalism is the most driving force in innovation your even wrong there it has been proven time and time again that health and stability creates greater minds then monetary based incentive.


Proven time and time again where in pretend-land?


a tarded question but still one



study even shows that when given monetary incentive it even appear to hinder creative innovation i guess it forms a sort of stress/pressure. I would not expect people to have such an inherit stress connection with monetary gain.

Dont get it messed up tho you still need to offer reward for people to do bullshit stuff that they dont realy want to do.

i wish people we could all try and communicate like this.
www.youtube.com/user/DeliCiousTZM
Etrnity
Profile Joined November 2010
United States88 Posts
May 08 2012 19:01 GMT
#884
On May 08 2012 09:24 DeliCiousVP wrote:
To save you guys from further frustration i wanna get this out of the way. Im not wrong here and im the one arguing with reason not personal insults or trying to riddicule. i Suggest that if you cant handle that leave a snyde comment and walk away.


So you're suggesting that since you're not wrong that you are in fact an all-knowing god, that what you say is and shall always be? I beg to disagree. Grow up, learn that your opinion is just one of many, and that you cannot know the truth that exists. There is a truth, but none of us can be sure of all the ways and means, even if we see it.
Southwards
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States49 Posts
May 08 2012 19:05 GMT
#885
LOL. This is such a joke. Sounds like the ramblings of an over-zealous 17 year old who just discovered what anarchism is.
DeliCiousVP
Profile Joined September 2011
Sweden343 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-08 19:12:30
May 08 2012 19:07 GMT
#886
On May 09 2012 04:01 Etrnity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2012 09:24 DeliCiousVP wrote:
To save you guys from further frustration i wanna get this out of the way. Im not wrong here and im the one arguing with reason not personal insults or trying to riddicule. i Suggest that if you cant handle that leave a snyde comment and walk away.


So you're suggesting that since you're not wrong that you are in fact an all-knowing god, that what you say is and shall always be? I beg to disagree. Grow up, learn that your opinion is just one of many, and that you cannot know the truth that exists. There is a truth, but none of us can be sure of all the ways and means, even if we see it.


I never claimed to have divine powers, And i think we know judging by the comment you left now who needs to grow up

Thank you for showing what a personal attack is because what you said had no relevance to any of the subjects discussed. Iam also capable of forming opions about people i see write, Few of them flattering but i have the descency to keep them for myself.
www.youtube.com/user/DeliCiousTZM
urasyupi2
Profile Joined August 2011
United States810 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-09 00:17:50
May 09 2012 00:16 GMT
#887
On May 09 2012 04:07 DeliCiousVP wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2012 04:01 Etrnity wrote:
On May 08 2012 09:24 DeliCiousVP wrote:
To save you guys from further frustration i wanna get this out of the way. Im not wrong here and im the one arguing with reason not personal insults or trying to riddicule. i Suggest that if you cant handle that leave a snyde comment and walk away.


So you're suggesting that since you're not wrong that you are in fact an all-knowing god, that what you say is and shall always be? I beg to disagree. Grow up, learn that your opinion is just one of many, and that you cannot know the truth that exists. There is a truth, but none of us can be sure of all the ways and means, even if we see it.


I never claimed to have divine powers, And i think we know judging by the comment you left now who needs to grow up

Thank you for showing what a personal attack is because what you said had no relevance to any of the subjects discussed. Iam also capable of forming opions about people i see write, Few of them flattering but i have the descency to keep them for myself.

Saying that you're not wrong is more or less just begging for people to challenge you. Just imply that you're open to other ideas and these "attacks" will stop.

On the charter, I think it's interesting but it wouldn't exactly work out and would be incredibly impractical to implement. As of today, one of the primary incentives of life is personal success. And that includes profit. Removing currency removes a key incentive. Perhaps, in a star-trek esq future where everyone is truly driven to better themselves this would work. Today, no.
hemeh
v3chr0
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States856 Posts
May 09 2012 02:42 GMT
#888
This thread is insane. We should at least close it for a day to give the defenders some reprieve.

It's the same 2-3 people defending with empty statements for about 35 pages, and everyone else is going in for a hit. All of the effort to reply to our posts, emptily at that, could have been put into an organized, and informative reply or OP devoted to AT LEAST discussing the plausible ways to go about creating this system, or something better than basically saying "It can work man!" when it obviously can't - obvious because the ideal itself is so vague, and about 500 people have provided reasons why it cannot work.

The only wasted resources are those you spend trying to continue on with this. Build a foundation before you start trying to put up the roof.
"He catches him with his pants down, backs him off into a corner, and then it's over." - Khaldor
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25995 Posts
May 09 2012 04:55 GMT
#889
On May 09 2012 11:42 v3chr0 wrote:
This thread is insane. We should at least close it for a day to give the defenders some reprieve.

It's the same 2-3 people defending with empty statements for about 35 pages, and everyone else is going in for a hit. All of the effort to reply to our posts, emptily at that, could have been put into an organized, and informative reply or OP devoted to AT LEAST discussing the plausible ways to go about creating this system, or something better than basically saying "It can work man!" when it obviously can't - obvious because the ideal itself is so vague, and about 500 people have provided reasons why it cannot work.

The only wasted resources are those you spend trying to continue on with this. Build a foundation before you start trying to put up the roof.

Such a circular discussion tends to be the norm on most TL threads these days.

I usually pride myself in reading the entire thread before responding, but really after two pages I was just seeing the same thing over and over again. I don't understand the mentality of people who feel the need to preface a completely unoriginal and oft-repeated thread with 'is it just me that thinks....?' NO IT ISN'T, if you would fucking read the threads you would know this.

Anyway, back to the issue at hand. People as a whole don't have the imagination to move beyond the status quo, and this is why such a scheme is unlikely in the extreme to happen, at least until (if) we develop some kind of post-scarcity level of development. In such an instance material wants are taken care of, it's a pretty interesting branch of sci-fi to look at what happens in the hypothetical worlds upon which material goods are no longer what separate/define people.

Much discussion of radical reformation to our existing political/economic/social structures tend to break down immediately into 'it can never happen' territory. I'm not one to buy into the over-idealistic rants of hippies or whatever, but dismissing any radical idea out of hand is just showing a lack of imagination and creative ingenuity.

There is no real logical reason that a lot of our current political/economic structures should be maintained because it's 'how the world is'. They have developed as to where they are over a large period of time, and to assume that NOW is the time in which these things aren't subject to flux is just deciding arbitrarily.

Capitalism is still screwing people over worldwide, to a huge degree. It may, or indeed may not be the 'least worst' system under which we can operate as a species, but to not examine it and look at other potential ways to structure our societies is short-sighted.

* To clarify I disagree with a lot of what is listed in the charter, I'm not pro-charter but I'm just ranting at the mentality that thinks maintaining a status quo is good in its own sake. If you think our current form of capitalism IS the best system, and have actually looked at the issue, I also think that's an entirely fair viewpoint to hold. I just abhor a lack of analysis/consideration of these issues before comment is passed.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
intense555
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States474 Posts
May 09 2012 05:50 GMT
#890
Im not going to be communist
Aspiring Starcraft 2 pro for @mYinsanityEU, follow me on twitter @mYintenseSC
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25995 Posts
May 09 2012 06:13 GMT
#891
On May 09 2012 14:50 intense555 wrote:
Im not going to be communist

Good post, added a lot to thread.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
scaban84
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1080 Posts
May 09 2012 13:42 GMT
#892
On May 09 2012 15:13 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2012 14:50 intense555 wrote:
Im not going to be communist

Good post, added a lot to thread.

Its better than some long-winded diatribe of capitalism.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design." — Friedrich von Hayek
GertHeart
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States631 Posts
May 09 2012 13:52 GMT
#893
The problem with any and all systems including capitalism is pretty simple. Corruption always rises to the top. A good guy will often give a bad guy another chance. A bad guy will throw a good guy out so he has less competition or problems in the future. That's what is currently happening in America now, corruption has taken hold of the government pretty deep, being in the senate should be an honor and should have minimal pay of 36,000 a year. This is a public job and you do it for the people.

A US Senator makes about 165k a year. Give or take a couple hundred dollars.

Here is what I found:

"Senators who do not hold a leadership position within the Senate are sometimes referred to as “rank and file” senators. These senators all have the same base pay, and it’s a much more than the six dollars a session the first Senators earned back in 1989. How much does a senator make these days? As of 2010, yearly salaries for United States Senators were as follows:

• Basic Senators (no leadership position) – $174,000

• Majority and Minority Leaders – $193,400

• President Pro Tempore – $223,500

• Vice President (President of the Senate) – $230,700
"

He who conquers the past rules the future, He who conquers the future rules the past. - C&C Red Alert
DeliCiousVP
Profile Joined September 2011
Sweden343 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-09 14:09:41
May 09 2012 14:07 GMT
#894
On May 09 2012 13:55 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2012 11:42 v3chr0 wrote:
This thread is insane. We should at least close it for a day to give the defenders some reprieve.

It's the same 2-3 people defending with empty statements for about 35 pages, and everyone else is going in for a hit. All of the effort to reply to our posts, emptily at that, could have been put into an organized, and informative reply or OP devoted to AT LEAST discussing the plausible ways to go about creating this system, or something better than basically saying "It can work man!" when it obviously can't - obvious because the ideal itself is so vague, and about 500 people have provided reasons why it cannot work.

The only wasted resources are those you spend trying to continue on with this. Build a foundation before you start trying to put up the roof.

Much discussion of radical reformation to our existing political/economic/social structures tend to break down immediately into 'it can never happen' territory. I'm not one to buy into the over-idealistic rants of hippies or whatever, but dismissing any radical idea out of hand is just showing a lack of imagination and creative ingenuity.

There is no real logical reason that a lot of our current political/economic structures should be maintained because it's 'how the world is'. They have developed as to where they are over a large period of time, and to assume that NOW is the time in which these things aren't subject to flux is just deciding arbitrarily.

Capitalism is still screwing people over worldwide, to a huge degree. It may, or indeed may not be the 'least worst' system under which we can operate as a species, but to not examine it and look at other potential ways to structure our societies is short-sighted.

* To clarify I disagree with a lot of what is listed in the charter, I'm not pro-charter but I'm just ranting at the mentality that thinks maintaining a status quo is good in its own sake. If you think our current form of capitalism IS the best system, and have actually looked at the issue, I also think that's an entirely fair viewpoint to hold. I just abhor a lack of analysis/consideration of these issues before comment is passed.


Communication is the key many however lack the tools and i dont mean gramar or sentence construction. I mean the ability to ask questions. it is so easy to make a statement supported by the status quo rather then fact and reason. People forget tho that the majority never comes up with a new idea.

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. -Arthur Schopenhauer
www.youtube.com/user/DeliCiousTZM
HellRoxYa
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden1614 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-09 15:15:03
May 09 2012 15:14 GMT
#895
On May 09 2012 23:07 DeliCiousVP wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2012 13:55 Wombat_NI wrote:
On May 09 2012 11:42 v3chr0 wrote:
This thread is insane. We should at least close it for a day to give the defenders some reprieve.

It's the same 2-3 people defending with empty statements for about 35 pages, and everyone else is going in for a hit. All of the effort to reply to our posts, emptily at that, could have been put into an organized, and informative reply or OP devoted to AT LEAST discussing the plausible ways to go about creating this system, or something better than basically saying "It can work man!" when it obviously can't - obvious because the ideal itself is so vague, and about 500 people have provided reasons why it cannot work.

The only wasted resources are those you spend trying to continue on with this. Build a foundation before you start trying to put up the roof.

Much discussion of radical reformation to our existing political/economic/social structures tend to break down immediately into 'it can never happen' territory. I'm not one to buy into the over-idealistic rants of hippies or whatever, but dismissing any radical idea out of hand is just showing a lack of imagination and creative ingenuity.

There is no real logical reason that a lot of our current political/economic structures should be maintained because it's 'how the world is'. They have developed as to where they are over a large period of time, and to assume that NOW is the time in which these things aren't subject to flux is just deciding arbitrarily.

Capitalism is still screwing people over worldwide, to a huge degree. It may, or indeed may not be the 'least worst' system under which we can operate as a species, but to not examine it and look at other potential ways to structure our societies is short-sighted.

* To clarify I disagree with a lot of what is listed in the charter, I'm not pro-charter but I'm just ranting at the mentality that thinks maintaining a status quo is good in its own sake. If you think our current form of capitalism IS the best system, and have actually looked at the issue, I also think that's an entirely fair viewpoint to hold. I just abhor a lack of analysis/consideration of these issues before comment is passed.


Communication is the key many however lack the tools and i dont mean gramar or sentence construction. I mean the ability to ask questions. it is so easy to make a statement supported by the status quo rather then fact and reason. People forget tho that the majority never comes up with a new idea.

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. -Arthur Schopenhauer



We've asked you a lot of questions in this thread and you've answered none of them.

The idea isn't new, nor is it violently opposed. Noone in this thread (at least none that I've seen) is against the beauty of the idea, but against the idealism and lack of base in reality. However nice an idea might be doesn't matter if you can't actually get it to work.

Lastly, status quo is based in fact and reason. If you want to argue against it, that's fine, and you should - but when you do so, bring more than just ideals.
DeliCiousVP
Profile Joined September 2011
Sweden343 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-09 16:30:47
May 09 2012 15:43 GMT
#896
On May 10 2012 00:14 HellRoxYa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2012 23:07 DeliCiousVP wrote:
On May 09 2012 13:55 Wombat_NI wrote:
On May 09 2012 11:42 v3chr0 wrote:
This thread is insane. We should at least close it for a day to give the defenders some reprieve.

It's the same 2-3 people defending with empty statements for about 35 pages, and everyone else is going in for a hit. All of the effort to reply to our posts, emptily at that, could have been put into an organized, and informative reply or OP devoted to AT LEAST discussing the plausible ways to go about creating this system, or something better than basically saying "It can work man!" when it obviously can't - obvious because the ideal itself is so vague, and about 500 people have provided reasons why it cannot work.

The only wasted resources are those you spend trying to continue on with this. Build a foundation before you start trying to put up the roof.

Much discussion of radical reformation to our existing political/economic/social structures tend to break down immediately into 'it can never happen' territory. I'm not one to buy into the over-idealistic rants of hippies or whatever, but dismissing any radical idea out of hand is just showing a lack of imagination and creative ingenuity.

There is no real logical reason that a lot of our current political/economic structures should be maintained because it's 'how the world is'. They have developed as to where they are over a large period of time, and to assume that NOW is the time in which these things aren't subject to flux is just deciding arbitrarily.

Capitalism is still screwing people over worldwide, to a huge degree. It may, or indeed may not be the 'least worst' system under which we can operate as a species, but to not examine it and look at other potential ways to structure our societies is short-sighted.

* To clarify I disagree with a lot of what is listed in the charter, I'm not pro-charter but I'm just ranting at the mentality that thinks maintaining a status quo is good in its own sake. If you think our current form of capitalism IS the best system, and have actually looked at the issue, I also think that's an entirely fair viewpoint to hold. I just abhor a lack of analysis/consideration of these issues before comment is passed.


Communication is the key many however lack the tools and i dont mean gramar or sentence construction. I mean the ability to ask questions. it is so easy to make a statement supported by the status quo rather then fact and reason. People forget tho that the majority never comes up with a new idea.

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. -Arthur Schopenhauer


We've asked you a lot of questions in this thread and you've answered none of them.


Like what? please repeat a question and it usualy have a question mark at the end like this "Who let the dogs out?"
www.youtube.com/user/DeliCiousTZM
HellRoxYa
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden1614 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-09 16:40:55
May 09 2012 16:39 GMT
#897
On May 10 2012 00:43 DeliCiousVP wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2012 00:14 HellRoxYa wrote:
On May 09 2012 23:07 DeliCiousVP wrote:
On May 09 2012 13:55 Wombat_NI wrote:
On May 09 2012 11:42 v3chr0 wrote:
This thread is insane. We should at least close it for a day to give the defenders some reprieve.

It's the same 2-3 people defending with empty statements for about 35 pages, and everyone else is going in for a hit. All of the effort to reply to our posts, emptily at that, could have been put into an organized, and informative reply or OP devoted to AT LEAST discussing the plausible ways to go about creating this system, or something better than basically saying "It can work man!" when it obviously can't - obvious because the ideal itself is so vague, and about 500 people have provided reasons why it cannot work.

The only wasted resources are those you spend trying to continue on with this. Build a foundation before you start trying to put up the roof.

Much discussion of radical reformation to our existing political/economic/social structures tend to break down immediately into 'it can never happen' territory. I'm not one to buy into the over-idealistic rants of hippies or whatever, but dismissing any radical idea out of hand is just showing a lack of imagination and creative ingenuity.

There is no real logical reason that a lot of our current political/economic structures should be maintained because it's 'how the world is'. They have developed as to where they are over a large period of time, and to assume that NOW is the time in which these things aren't subject to flux is just deciding arbitrarily.

Capitalism is still screwing people over worldwide, to a huge degree. It may, or indeed may not be the 'least worst' system under which we can operate as a species, but to not examine it and look at other potential ways to structure our societies is short-sighted.

* To clarify I disagree with a lot of what is listed in the charter, I'm not pro-charter but I'm just ranting at the mentality that thinks maintaining a status quo is good in its own sake. If you think our current form of capitalism IS the best system, and have actually looked at the issue, I also think that's an entirely fair viewpoint to hold. I just abhor a lack of analysis/consideration of these issues before comment is passed.


Communication is the key many however lack the tools and i dont mean gramar or sentence construction. I mean the ability to ask questions. it is so easy to make a statement supported by the status quo rather then fact and reason. People forget tho that the majority never comes up with a new idea.

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. -Arthur Schopenhauer


We've asked you a lot of questions in this thread and you've answered none of them.


Like what? please repeat a question and it usualy have a question mark at the end like this "Who let the dogs out?"


Like what? Like how you would transform society over to this new model? How this new model explains away resource dependancy (we are still bound by the resources we can extract from the earth)? How you explain away, credibly, political conflicts over ideological and religious standpoints? And just incase it hasn't actually hit you, this proposal would count as an ideology, and people who oppose it may or may not cooperate and may or may not feel so strongly against it that they'll take up arms against it. This... strikes me as a problem. There's a lot more scattered throughout this thread, why don't you do your own digging? You've only deflected questions with idealistic rethoric which (sadly) has no connection to the real world.
RageBot
Profile Joined November 2010
Israel1530 Posts
May 09 2012 16:45 GMT
#898
On May 09 2012 01:43 DeliCiousVP wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2012 01:17 Felnarion wrote:
On May 08 2012 23:55 Tunkeg wrote:
On May 08 2012 23:26 Felnarion wrote:
On May 08 2012 23:14 Tunkeg wrote:
Maybe sometime in the future humans will have become intelligent enough to work out a system that can make capitalism history. The flaws of capitalism is many, but as of right now it is the best system. There is much I would like to say on the topic, but I will summarize it:

- The differences in the world are perverted.
- Our workcapital is spent wrong.
- The need of the many should trumph the greed of the few.
- People working together towards a common goal and a common increase in quality of life have an incredible work ethics.
- No such change will ever occur until the humanrace have evolved past greed and power (Not likely that it will happend).


- The differences in the world are perverted.
- Our workcapital is spent in a way you don't like
- The need of the many should trumph the greed of the few.
How many for how few? How much is one person's need worth versus one person's greed?
- People working together towards a common goal and a common increase in quality of life have an incredible work ethics.
Yeah they do, as long as they feel they will benefit in proportion to the work they give.
- No such change will ever occur until the humanrace have evolved past greed and power (Not likely that it will happend).
Not everyone considers losing the need for motivation an evolution.

Something you need to realize is that capitalism already answers these questions.

Something else to realize? Everyone in the world can't have a refridgerator, and a gaming computer, and a cell phone, and microwaves, and cars, and tablets, and 2 TVs, big monitors, a stereo system, surround sound.

You know, all these things everyone around here takes for granted? You've gotta give those up if you want the entire world to have a "reasonable" existence.



If you rewrite Our workcapital is spent in a way you don't like to Our workcapital is spent in a way you think is wrong we agree. I neither like or dislike it. For me personal I don't care if people spend their lifes as hairdressers and make up artists, it doesn't affect me at all. But I think that is wrong use of workcapital.

Need is more worth than greed period.

You think the only motivation we have is greed and power then? If it is we certantly need to evolve.

Capitalism is not perfect, and never will be (and certantly don't have the answer for all questions). It is however better than all other systems we have had thus far...

Sadly not all can have all of that, as we are fairly overpopulated. Another reason why a better system would be preferable.

I don't have to give up anything as there won't be any changes in my lifetime. I would not work towards such changes either, I picked the golden ticket in the lottery and was born in a country where I can have all those things no matter what I do. I am as greedy and as selfish as the rest (maybe even more), but I do realize that what is best for me, not nessarily is best for the world as a whole.


Capitalism has given what we enjoy today, if you like it or not. Where capitalism is not allowed to thrive, people suffer in far greater numbers. If Capitalism isn't perfect, every other idea is even less perfect...and this OP? It isn't even "Good"


That is like saying kings were responsible for whatever their subjects invented and it was thanks to the king it did Technology is responsibile for our improvements regardless of what system we use, The system proposed is just superior and adapted to 21st century not the 19th century like our current system.

And if you still belive captalism is the most driving force in innovation your even wrong there it has been proven time and time again that health and stability creates greater minds then monetary based incentive.


Kings were responsible for the things their subjects invented, where do you think the inventors got their money from?
How do you think the invention were spread between other scientists?

You show a complete lack of history knowledge, everything in this world - art, music, technology, was first created to serve the elites and to be used in wars, only after that it was delievered to the masses.
xeo1
Profile Joined October 2011
United States429 Posts
May 09 2012 17:10 GMT
#899
I encourage everyone to read this short blog about human nature and meeting human needs, which even brings up starcraft: http://zeitnewsblog.blogspot.com/2011/03/meeting-human-needs-how-resource-based.html

DeliCiousVP
Profile Joined September 2011
Sweden343 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-09 17:33:23
May 09 2012 17:20 GMT
#900
Like how you would transform society over to this new model?


It is a transition from our current system to a RBE it happends mainly through social reforms such as Free health care,dependant wellfare system and free education.

a value shift needs to hit the status quo where people wanna do what they have intrests in rather then what will pay the best(Which is becoming largely accepted already)

How this new model explains away resource dependancy (we are still bound by the resources we can extract from the earth)?


I never claimed it would but we would use our resources more effiecntly coupled with new technology to maximise the yield we can extract more iron then people could 1000 years ago. The goal is to not exceed the planets yearly replinisment rate of resources and find substitiues for those we have to mine no matter what.

How you explain away, credibly, political conflicts over ideological and religious standpoints?

I dont realy understand what you mean here.

this proposal would count as an ideology, and people who oppose it may or may not cooperate and may or may not feel so strongly against it that they'll take up arms against it.


There is no poltical left or right way to build an airplane we will use the scientific method to decide what works and what does not. That involves finding out what shapes human behaviour aswel as constructing an infrastructure that is easy to change,maintain and recycle as needed.

Nobody will take up arms against a system that offers them a chance to participate in real change aswel as being feed,housed and offered freedoms no human could imagine today. Your standard of living in this system will be so extremly high you can even fathom it today and if you could odds are you would be out right knocking door to door like a jehovas witness.
www.youtube.com/user/DeliCiousTZM
Prev 1 43 44 45 46 47 75 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
12:00
King of the Hill #230
WardiTV592
iHatsuTV 11
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 259
Codebar 16
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 1666
Jaedong 1540
EffOrt 936
Light 685
Stork 513
Mini 494
Larva 447
actioN 289
Snow 270
BeSt 245
[ Show more ]
Barracks 223
Rush 191
hero 180
Leta 140
sSak 119
Aegong 66
JYJ61
sas.Sziky 44
Backho 32
Noble 29
zelot 29
sorry 26
Movie 22
Shine 22
soO 19
Sharp 17
NaDa 15
scan(afreeca) 15
Terrorterran 11
HiyA 9
Bale 8
Dota 2
Gorgc6768
qojqva1602
XcaliburYe137
420jenkins127
League of Legends
Reynor109
Counter-Strike
zeus879
allub284
edward91
oskar71
Other Games
singsing1766
B2W.Neo762
DeMusliM347
crisheroes326
Sick299
Lowko269
Happy141
Hui .70
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick564
Counter-Strike
PGL227
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 59
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 1726
• WagamamaTV296
League of Legends
• Jankos3639
Upcoming Events
LAN Event
1h 7m
Lambo vs Harstem
FuturE vs Maplez
Scarlett vs FoxeR
Gerald vs Mixu
Zoun vs TBD
Clem vs TBD
ByuN vs TBD
TriGGeR vs TBD
Korean StarCraft League
13h 7m
CranKy Ducklings
20h 7m
LAN Event
1d 1h
IPSL
1d 4h
dxtr13 vs OldBoy
Napoleon vs Doodle
BSL 21
1d 6h
Gosudark vs Kyrie
Gypsy vs Sterling
UltrA vs Radley
Dandy vs Ptak
Replay Cast
1d 9h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 20h
WardiTV Korean Royale
1d 22h
LAN Event
2 days
[ Show More ]
IPSL
2 days
JDConan vs WIZARD
WolFix vs Cross
BSL 21
2 days
spx vs rasowy
HBO vs KameZerg
Cross vs Razz
dxtr13 vs ZZZero
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Kung Fu Cup
4 days
Classic vs Solar
herO vs Cure
Reynor vs GuMiho
ByuN vs ShoWTimE
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
5 days
The PondCast
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Solar vs Zoun
MaxPax vs Bunny
Kung Fu Cup
5 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Classic vs Creator
Cure vs TriGGeR
Kung Fu Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 21 Points
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual

Upcoming

BSL Season 21
SLON Tour Season 2
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
RSL Revival: Season 3
META Madness #9
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.