EPTThe Free World Charter - Page 43
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xeo1
United States429 Posts
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Fubi
2228 Posts
On May 08 2012 11:40 xeo1 wrote: I love how much faith you guys put in current politics and economics, the only thing they are interested in is profit. Anyway, could you guys briefly summarize what your ideal socioeconomic system would be? We're not economist or social politicians, so therefore most of us are not ambitious enough to think they're good enough to come up with a solution of best system. Which is why we don't go around sprouting fantasy ideas and claiming it like it's a fact without providing any real proofs like you are doing. Do I think the current system is perfect? Of course not, but do I think eliminating money would improve it? Definitely no as well. Personally if I have to answer your question, my ideal social-economic system is one where your effort+skills -> results = rewards. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On May 08 2012 11:40 xeo1 wrote: I love how much faith you guys put in current politics and economics, the only thing they are interested in is profit. Anyway, could you guys briefly summarize what your ideal socioeconomic system would be? I'll quote Deng Xiaoping as he was leading China to embrace market reforms: "No matter if it is a white cat or a black cat; as long as it can catch mice, it is a good cat." Whatever works the best I'm all for. Even though it has warts that means market capitalism and democracy. And since you asked a few posts back I graduate Friday with my masters in business so I like to think that I have a fair understanding of economics and how businesses run, operate and make investment decisions  | ||
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DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
On May 08 2012 11:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote: And since you asked a few posts back I graduate Friday with my masters in business so I like to think that I have a fair understanding of economics and how businesses run, operate and make investment decisions Hahaha no wonder :D ofc ofc ofc ofc ofc ofc :D Oh man that cracked me up. Like they say shit in shit out :D no wonder you were so clueless about real economics :D | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On May 08 2012 12:01 DeliCiousVP wrote: Hahaha no wonder :D ofc ofc ofc ofc ofc ofc :D Oh man that cracked me up. Like they say shit in shit out :D no wonder you were so clueless about real economics :D Hrm? Do you also tell doctors they know nothing about medicine? | ||
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DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
On May 08 2012 12:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote: Hrm? Do you also tell doctors they know nothing about medicine? No ^^ because they actually use it practical they dont manipulate numbers But dont let me spoil it for you its gonna be an adventure for you see, | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On May 08 2012 12:07 DeliCiousVP wrote: No ^^ because they actually use it practical they dont manipulate numbers But dont let me spoil it for you its gonna be an adventure for you see,I don't manipulate numbers either. What experience do you have, in real life, organizing capital and labor to accomplish anything? | ||
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DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
On May 08 2012 12:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote: I don't manipulate numbers either. What experience do you have, in real life, organizing capital and labor to accomplish anything? Wait you dont actually belive that your economics degree is useful for anything real do you ? oh thats cutee you think you will actually do anything productive :D I get it tho once you heard micro macro you were sold i get that you thought it was a starcraft class, When do we start Micro macro training? Working your way up from silver. User was warned for this post | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On May 08 2012 12:12 DeliCiousVP wrote: Wait you dont actually belive that your economics degree is useful for anything real do you ? oh thats cutee you think you will do anything productive :D Erm, it's not an economics degree. It's an MBA (Master's in Business Administration). My previous job was as a manager at a retailer and before that I was a manager at a building material supplier. So I've already been productive with my life and will continue to do so thanks | ||
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xeo1
United States429 Posts
On May 08 2012 11:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote: I'll quote Deng Xiaoping as he was leading China to embrace market reforms: "No matter if it is a white cat or a black cat; as long as it can catch mice, it is a good cat." Whatever works the best I'm all for. Even though it has warts that means market capitalism and democracy. And since you asked a few posts back I graduate Friday with my masters in business so I like to think that I have a fair understanding of economics and how businesses run, operate and make investment decisions what a surprise.. of course you won't go against something you spent years on studying. but can't you see past your bias? I bet most other people opposing this have a similar position, or a fat bank account  | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5080 Posts
what a surprise.. of course you won't go against something you spent years on studying. but can't you see past your bias? I bet most other people opposing this have a similar position, or a fat bank account You expect people to give people who think and argue like you absolute power over the world? If this is an example of the best you can do advocating your ideas, you aren't competent to be head of a hot dog stand, much less controlling an economy. A level of power and control that capitalists come nowhere near reaching or even try to reach, by the way. | ||
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Fubi
2228 Posts
On May 08 2012 12:19 xeo1 wrote: what a surprise.. of course you won't go against something you spent years on studying. but can't you see past your bias? I bet most other people opposing this have a similar position, or a fat bank account How convenient, If someone knows a lot about what he's talking about, you simply go "of course you won't go against something you spent years on studying" If someone doesn't know a lot, you can simply go "see you don't know enough about it to make your arguments" The bottom line is though, you guys are still trying to dodge backing up your idea with real facts and actual steps of getting there, and instead trying to get around it by playing the emotion game. How is this any different than a religious discussion? I thought those types of debates are not allowed on TL? | ||
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DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
On May 08 2012 12:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote: Erm, it's not an economics degree. It's an MBA (Master's in Business Administration). My previous job was as a manager at a retailer and before that I was a manager at a building material supplier. So I've already been productive with my life and will continue to do so thanks Thats awesome! You telling other people what to do sure is being productive just remember to get paied 5 times as much as your workers for sitting on your ass all day collecting goverment money for your employes. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On May 08 2012 11:40 xeo1 wrote: I love how much faith you guys put in current politics and economics, the only thing they are interested in is profit. Anyway, could you guys briefly summarize what your ideal socioeconomic system would be? Like another before me, I don't pretend to have a perfect socioeconomic system figured out using my brain and spots of free time. Depending on how ideal you're willing to go, I'd say angels, incorruptible beings governing us, delivering justice, making laws to best effect a peaceful land. Lacking that, I'd say a free market system with minimal regulations. Pollution regulations for the advent of clean air and water, currency system, and other things relating to foreign interactions. I'm not out here promoting my genius vision of the best way all things can work together, nor delusional to the thought that its even possible to have a one-world government. I don't pretend to know the minutiae involved in light regulation of industry and which public services are best kept in a large organization overseeing millions or a smaller one overseeing thousands. Simultaneously, I would be hard pressed to come up with a system worse than the one you describe in the original post--elimination of all currency and belief in the magic of machine automation. May I say, the magic of friendship is cute until a small community grows and large conflict of interests and ambitions occurs. For anyone that read through the ten tenets of this miraculous government, you will know that it is filled with vacuous, nice-sounding nonsense and lacks any concrete governing structure in the interests of securing the ideals presented. The highest concern of humanity is the combined common good of all living species and biosphere. Earth's natural resources are the birthright of all its inhabitants, and free to share in the combined common good. Our community provides for all its members the necessities of a healthy, fulfilling and sustainable life, freely and without obligation. You might come away from these kinds of propositions with a quizzical expression. How? Merely getting a community of several thousand to sign onto this is a far cry from each member in his/her private life abiding by it in their private lives. I'm a much better tender of my own self-interest than that of the common good. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5080 Posts
Thats awesome! You telling other people what to do sure is being productive just remember to get paied 5 times as much as your workers for sitting on your ass all day collecting goverment money for your employes. As opposed to getting paid nothing (because everything is "free,") sitting around waiting for orders from the local commissar on what to do to run the place because you're just a cog in the machine and some expert with his slide rule who has no experience but uses 'science' knows better than you what to do. And yes, a managerial position is productive, or businesses wouldn't have them. They'd be a waste of money otherwise. Collecting government money, roflmao. | ||
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gmen650
United States6 Posts
Just remeber without the capitalist industrial power in the United States, your precious sweeden would have been taken over by Nazis long ago, luckily most of you are blonde and probably wouldn't have been exterminated, but you would still have no freedom. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On May 08 2012 12:19 xeo1 wrote: what a surprise.. of course you won't go against something you spent years on studying. but can't you see past your bias? I bet most other people opposing this have a similar position, or a fat bank account Haha I bet that's what you were fishing for when you asked people to post what they did! Well, two jobs ago the company I worked for went bankrupt due to the housing bubble bursting, so maybe I hold a grudge against that, eh? I mean it was all Wall Street's fault, right?! Seriously though, I've agreed with you in previous posts about flaws in the system and inefficiencies in the market so don't act like I'm a completely biased observer. Partially biased, sure, but no one is 100% bias free are they? For my class's practicums 1 worked with a local non profit (a classical music group), 1 worked with a company that helps root out labor violations (sweatshops etc.) in the supply chain and I worked with a local start up that is trying to make solar panels more affordable for homeowners. So, it's not like we're all evil and 'profits are all that matters' and whatnot. | ||
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xeo1
United States429 Posts
On May 08 2012 12:23 DeepElemBlues wrote: You expect people to give people who think and argue like you absolute power over the world? If this is an example of the best you can do advocating your ideas, you aren't competent to be head of a hot dog stand, much less controlling an economy. A level of power and control that capitalists come nowhere near reaching or even try to reach, by the way. capitalists control the resources of the planet. it doesn't get grander than that. with the acquired wealth they 'control' politicians and militaries of nations. and I don't want absolute power. I don't want any power for that matter, nor a leader nor any classes. I just hope to see human society adapt to this ever changing world with the help of science and technology, that's all. and the current profit system of today hinders such social evolution. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On May 08 2012 12:41 xeo1 wrote: capitalists control the resources of the planet. it doesn't get grander than that. with the acquired wealth they 'control' politicians and militaries of nations. and I don't want absolute power. I don't want any power for that matter, nor a leader nor any classes. I just hope to see human society adapt to this ever changing world with the help of science and technology, that's all. and the current profit system of today hinders such social evolution. By 'capitalist' you mean what? Large shareholders? So is CalPERS up to no good in your opinion? | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5080 Posts
capitalists control the resources of the planet. it doesn't get grander than that. with the acquired wealth they 'control' politicians and militaries of nations. Really? Most of the world's resources are controlled by state-owned companies. and I don't want absolute power. I don't want any power for that matter, nor a leader nor any classes. I just hope to see human society adapt to this ever changing world with the help of science and technology, that's all. and the current profit system of today hinders such social evolution. No, you just want men using 'science' to have all power over every economic decision of production and therefore demand as well, and you imagine that there will be neither leaders nor classes in this system. Talk about blind faith. The current profit system of today is responsible for science and technology being applied towards the masses and not just the nobility. It does not hinder social evolution, what a fucking joke. Have you actually read The Zeitgeist Movement's website? It is chillingly authoritarian and quite frank about how under the glorious RBEM system your false consciousness will be lifted - or you can just shut the fuck up and deal with the new system of artificial scarcity it proposes under the Orwellian phrases "access, not ownership," "utility, not vanity," and a bunch of other scary bullshit. You want to get in your car and go somewhere? You don't have a car. There are community cars that are "accessed" and brought back to the "community center" when the driver is done. Why do you need to use a car today, comrade? Is that use "strategically best"? No? Well, tough shit. No car for you today, comrade. For the greater good. That whole website is some seriously weird doublethink in action. Along with some a ton of curtailing of human freedom, individuality, and diversity. However, as time has gone on, it has become increasingly obvious that we are not special and that there is no such thing as "special" in the natural world,. for everything is special based on the uniqueness of all organisms. There is no reason to assume the human being is any more important or intrinsically different or special than a mole, a tree, an ant, a leaf or a cancer cell. This isn't "New Age" rhetoric - it is fundamental logic. We are physical phenomena - nothing more or less. Yeah, Zeitgeist really has the best interests of humanity at heart. | ||
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