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Hey guys! We'll be closing this thread shortly, but we will make an American politics megathread where we can continue the discussions in here. The new thread can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383301 | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On October 29 2012 04:59 Souma wrote: The good ol' "everything will be fine if we just leave it alone" argument. This is the one-size-fits-all argument for liberalism. It's easy. Just tattoo it on your wrist and you have an answer for everything. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On October 29 2012 05:00 xDaunt wrote: See, I disagree on this "chicken and the egg" problem. I don't think that the structural inequalities that you reference can be eliminated until there's a colorblind society. It's a false dichotomy. you have to solve both issues together. You can never solve problems like this by solving one half of them. You always have to solve the whole system all at once. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On October 29 2012 05:00 xDaunt wrote: See, I disagree on this "chicken and the egg" problem. I don't think that the structural inequalities that you reference can be eliminated until there's a colorblind society. you don't have a chicken and egg problem here, because clearly the history of slavery, segregation, marginalization etc etc were not products of liberal policies of affirmative action etc. ja? existing inequalities perpetuate. formal equality is no solution at all. your INABILITY to recognize real existing conditions of inequality along racial lines is the only problem here. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On October 29 2012 05:02 sam!zdat wrote: It's a false dichotomy. you have to solve both issues together. You can never solve problems like this by solving one half of them. You always have to solve the whole system all at once. It's not a false dichotomy if one accepts the premise that "race consciousness" (ie not being colorblind) is the cause of the structural inequality. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On October 29 2012 05:05 xDaunt wrote: It's not a false dichotomy if one accepts the premise that "race consciousness" (ie not being colorblind) is the cause of the structural inequality. that's a stupid premise | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
i'm sorry, they were in fact doing better than their brethrens back home. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
Has 'not talking about it will make it go away' ever worked for any issue ever? What makes you think it would work for race? | ||
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BluePanther
United States2776 Posts
On October 29 2012 04:30 Lmui wrote: The turnout referred to in the article is the demographic that votes largely democrat. The poor and minorities, generally low income voters that have traditionally been democrat leaning. They're the ones who're being hit hardest because they can least afford to pay to get ID to vote. I also don't understand the ID issue. I worked in a homeless shelter for a while and we provided IDs free of charge. And I'm talking the poorest of the poor. It's a non-factor. | ||
Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On October 29 2012 05:17 DoubleReed wrote: If it's a colorblind society, how would you know if you solved racial issues? Has 'not talking about it will make it go away' ever worked for any issue ever? What makes you think it would work for race? I suppose if you pretend hard enough that everything is okay, everything really will be okay. What is reality, really? | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
It's all relative, man. (now do you see why postmodernism is the ideology of late capitalism?) | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On October 29 2012 05:18 BluePanther wrote: I also don't understand the ID issue. I worked in a homeless shelter for a while and we provided IDs free of charge. And I'm talking the poorest of the poor. It's a non-factor. then why did republicans wait until the election is close before raising the issue? lol | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On October 29 2012 05:18 BluePanther wrote: I also don't understand the ID issue. I worked in a homeless shelter for a while and we provided IDs free of charge. And I'm talking the poorest of the poor. It's a non-factor. I don't understand why people use anecdotes when there are statistics in this regard. http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/measuring-the-effects-of-voter-identification-laws/ | ||
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Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On October 29 2012 05:19 sam!zdat wrote: It's all relative, man. (now do you see why postmodernism is the ideology of late capitalism?) Oh God don't tell me I'm starting to sound like you... I may have to stay away from this thread for a bit. :p | ||
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farvacola
United States18870 Posts
On October 29 2012 05:18 BluePanther wrote: I also don't understand the ID issue. I worked in a homeless shelter for a while and we provided IDs free of charge. And I'm talking the poorest of the poor. It's a non-factor. Give state institutions time and funding to cover free ID provision and I doubt anyone would have a problem; like oneofthem said, the timing is the biggest issue. Getting a free government issued ID is simply impossible in many states. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On October 29 2012 05:17 DoubleReed wrote: If it's a colorblind society, how would you know if you solved racial issues? Has 'not talking about it will make it go away' ever worked for any issue ever? What makes you think it would work for race? What more can you ask for than no one giving a shit about race? Isn't that the ultimate goal? It should be, but I know it is not for democrats and liberals. They want to see equality of economic outcomes among races. I don't this goal as being objectionable, but I do object to how they want to get us there. In short, they ignore the inherent problems within the specific racial communities that are the real causes of their economic problems. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On October 29 2012 05:28 xDaunt wrote: What more can you ask for than no one giving a shit about race? Isn't that the ultimate goal? It should be, but I know it is not for democrats and liberals. They want to see equality of economic outcomes among races. I don't this goal as being objectionable, but I do object to how they want to get us there. In short, they ignore the inherent problems within the specific racial communities that are the real causes of their economic problems. not giving a shit about race is a liberal position. identity theorists like communitarian stuff better. recognizing and addressing real social problems with racial origins or defined impact is an entirely different issue. if you are proposing that, in order to solve racial issues once and for all so no one should raise it as an issue, we are to turn 10% of gdp as reparation for past racial sins, then i'd applaud your bravery. let's see these proposals lol | ||
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frogrubdown
1266 Posts
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BluePanther
United States2776 Posts
On October 29 2012 05:22 DoubleReed wrote: I don't understand why people use anecdotes when there are statistics in this regard. http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/measuring-the-effects-of-voter-identification-laws/ An unwillingness to get an id != an inability to get an id. Your statistics talk about voter turnout. They do not talk about inability to get an id. These are two separate issues that may have a causation link. But they are still different things. | ||
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HunterX11
United States1048 Posts
On October 29 2012 05:28 xDaunt wrote: What more can you ask for than no one giving a shit about race? Isn't that the ultimate goal? It should be, but I know it is not for democrats and liberals. They want to see equality of economic outcomes among races. I don't this goal as being objectionable, but I do object to how they want to get us there. In short, they ignore the inherent problems within the specific racial communities that are the real causes of their economic problems. Not giving a shit about race while black people are treated as inferiors and have less power and less wealth and are still actively discriminated against is not a laudable goal, it is a white supremacist goal. You're really going to say that the inherent problems within specific racial communities are the real causes of their economic problems? Since when did Teamliquid become Stormfront? | ||
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BluePanther
United States2776 Posts
On October 29 2012 05:23 farvacola wrote: Give state institutions time and funding to cover free ID provision and I doubt anyone would have a problem; like oneofthem said, the timing is the biggest issue. Getting a free government issued ID is simply impossible in many states. In my state they passed the law quite a long time ago... The Dems keep stalling it in the courts, and now complain when the ruling is about to be issued before the election, pushing it off again. It's not the Republicans pushing it right before the election, it's the Democrats stalling it out and then screaming 'victim' when it is unfavorable to them. | ||
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