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On October 29 2012 03:43 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 03:18 BluePanther wrote:I would argue the premise of that article is incorrect. The recent Wisconsin Governor election is living proof. Huge turnout, huge Republican win (in a Democratic state). Wisconsin is and always has been an outlier insofar as state political dynamics are concerned, going all the way back to the first utterance of "the Wisconsin Idea" in 1904. The mere fact that Wisconsin produced the likes of Russ Feingold, Joe McCarthy, and Paul Ryan is enough to suggest that the state is truly a unique "laboratory for democracy". Also a Wisconsin idea 
That may be, but the blanket statement of "more turnout==more Democratic votes" is erroneous imo.
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if he had said he would renew GB tax cuts I would not have voted for him the first time...
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Jill is pretty cute vote for her
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On October 29 2012 03:35 HunterX11 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 07:09 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 28 2012 06:17 HunterX11 wrote:On October 28 2012 04:53 sc2superfan101 wrote: how do you know that they mean racism when they mention people om welfare, food stamps, etc?
and what does the supposed "southern strategy" which had the alleged intent of appealing the segregationists (god I wish people would actually read history) have to do with alleged anti-intellectualism? The Southern Strategy was not a "supposed" or "alleged" strategy: it has been explained by campaign advisers who utilized it! You can argue that it isn't relevant today (which is an opinion with which I'd disagree), but claiming that it was not originally about appealing to racism isn't even an opinion--it's simply factually incorrect. i wrote so many words... for so small an argument.. boredom is a killer: + Show Spoiler + my point, and let this serve as a response to radiatoren also, is that one cannot look at historical sociopolitical shifts as one dimensional events which occur suddenly and in a vacuum, unaffected by those ideas which came before them and made up the ideological world they lived in. whether there was some specific (by specific I mean localized, not general) occurrences of pandering to racist/segregationist elements by specific Republicans or Republican campaigners is not what I am challenging. rather, I challenging two assertions made by the reference to the "southern strategy" as a possible explanation for the alleged anti-intellectualism in the Republican party, allegedly driven by the more conservative elements.
the first assertion (which is implied) is that the Southern Strategy was, and remains, a driving force of intellectual development within the party and movement (Republican and conservative). the second assertion, more explicit in nature, was that there is an anti-intellectualism that composes enough of a part of the conservative/Republican ideology that it could be considered as an accurate, general label.
for the first assertion, I can point to the fact that segregation itself was fought by as many conservative Republicans as progressive ones. in fact, it was not the progressives who drove abolition and later anti-segregation; they simply attached themselves to the Republicans in the late 1800s, early 1900s due to Republican support of an inclusive society. the progressives were primarily redistributive, their support for an inclusive society was largely coincidental. it was not that they supported anti-segregation for the sake of anti-segregation as much as it was a rather practical way to gain votes and grow the tax-paying base at the same time. this is not to say that there were no legitimately anti-segregationist progressives, just that in general, redistribution took precedence over any kind of racial equality.
I could spend hours going through the nuances of Republicanism in the 1900s, but let's skip that and accept the History channel's somewhat simplistic explanations (which completely neglect the 1920s and 30s), so that we can examine the "Southern Strategy's" effect on today's Republicans as an anti-intellectual force. i would assert that both arguments are wrong, 1) that the southern strategy has any consequential effect whatsoever on modern conservative-Republican ideology, and 2) that the southern strategy was, itself, either racist or anti-intellectual. One must ask oneself why the very people who supported desegregation rather vehemently would then turn around without warning and court the segregationists? why would Goldwater and Nixon, both noted anti-racists and anti-segregationists in the 50s and 60s, suddenly in the mid-60s become racist, segregationists? it makes no sense because it didn't happen that way.
the "southern strategy" was as much about anti-Communism as it was about anti-redistribution. further, segregation at that point had become centered around the issue (among other issues) of the federally enforced desegregation of public and private society. many of the people who found themselves on the side of the segregationists on the issue of forced busing, for example, were not racists at all, and in fact some were members of the NAACP and had participated in anti-segregation movements in the 50s and 60s. some of them were even blacks themselves, who opposed busing on the grounds that it was both ineffective and was a federal overreach. their opposition for federally enforced desegregation and affirmative-action were entirely intellectual. it was these people, who were also largely anti-Communist, that the Republicans sought to court. the Democrats (among others) painted it as anti-segregation and as betrayal, and were actually very successful in the propagation of that image.
as for the Southern Strategy being a force on today's policies and ideologies, I would argue that it was in no way a new or radical thing, what the partakers of the so-called "Southern Strategy" were suggesting and arguing for. they argued for anti-Communism, anti-federal expansion, and for the strict maintenance of law and order. these ideas, whether inherently racist or not, were not new and were not receiving some kind of special attention. the writings of William F. Buckley Jr. were by far more influential to the ideological modern conservative than the opinions of some Nixon campaign adviser.
obviously this explanation above is incomplete, as I've completely neglected mentioning the Roosevelt's, the Rockefeller's, Coolidge, the Great Depression, WW2, WW1, Woodrow Wilson, Bull Conner, George Wallace, and have given only the tiniest of nods to Buckley and the National Review. but I think it should suffice to at least show that claiming the "Southern Strategy" was either explicitly and generally racist, or that it was based in anti-intellectualism, is false. as for it being relevant to today's ideology, I would say that the claim is so wild and unsupported as to require significant evidence to even be uttered. one might as well claim the sky as being red and then declare that the onus is on me to prove otherwise.
now, onto the idea that the Republicans are generally anti-intellectual at all. this comes from 1) the rejection of the conservatives of progressivism and redistribution and, 2) the conservative opposition to the perceived progressive take-over of academia. I would argue that the conservative argument against progressivism is very rational and is based on the writings and opinions of very educated men and women who were anything but anti-intellectual. as for whether the conservative perception of academia is correct or well-founded, well, that is not an argument I am prepared to have. it would require hours of research on my part, and would likely have a less-than desirable result. one might argue that conservative ideology is irrelevant to today, or is unworthy of being given attention by our educators, and this is an opinion that cannot be effectively argued by the conservative. what is clear, however, is that the modern conservative ideology is not given nearly the attention by educators as the modern liberal ideology is. the student or scholar is undeniably more likely to hear the arguments against McCarthyism, than the arguments for it's necessity and desirability. whether this is appropriate or not is up to you, but don't accuse those who feel that it is inappropriate to exclude one side of the argument from our teaching about the argument of being anti-intellectual.
as for us deciding which words are "codewords" or not, I will simply leave you with the suggestion that if one assumes a priori that certain phrases or words contain implicit racism than one has effectively engaged in the fallacy of poisoning the well. which could be construed as being anti-intellectual. just sayin'.
(I realize this is short on sources, but most of this is... well, some of it is common knowledge. as for the rest, either take my word for it or prove how not anti-intellectual you are and find some sources that prove me wrong.)
It frankly really concerns me that you could be familiar this familiar with history (as with your previous post about the post-Civil Rights political realignment) and somehow still deny the central role racism has played in American politics. I mean, Lee Atwater himself said it: "You start out in 1954 by saying, 'Nigger, nigger, nigger.' By 1968 you can't say 'nigger' — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, 'We want to cut this,' is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than 'Nigger, nigger.'" I mean, really, you're going to argue that it was just anti-Communism? + Show Spoiler +No racism here, no siree bob! Just good honest people voting for politicians who don't want to get "outniggered again" (yes yes before you go into a tirade about that I'm well aware of Wallace's background, but even if you assume he was never racist, clearly he was appealing to racist voters). i'm gonna have to compile more notes on this, and I'll get back to you. but let's please keep in mind that
1) Lee Atwater was one Republican, and I'm not even sure what he means with that comment or why I should take his interpretation of what happened or what Reagan was campaigning for. As far as I know, the voting habits of the working-class white Southerner remained firmly Democrat until the 1990s.
2) Wallace was a Democrat turned Dixiecrat. He wasn't a Republican.
3) I'm not saying that there was no racism in the Republican party. I'm saying that the Republican party as a whole never had a racist platform, and was, at that time (1960s and 1970s) still the less racist party. The situation of the Republican and Southern shifts were not as simple as Republicans just deciding to be racist out of nowhere and segregationists just deciding to jump ship from the Democrats. there were a lot of different factors in play, racism being one of them, but possibly not even the major one. to the average white, in 1970, I am not sure that race or segregation was seen as the all-important topic that it is now.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
It's surprising to see some guy defending "republican" like a brand. I thought everyone was just using big tent parties as coalitions of contingence, forced by 2 party system and all. Fact is most southern racists vote republican now.
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On October 29 2012 04:11 oneofthem wrote: It's surprising to see some guy defending "republican" like a brand. I thought everyone was just using big tent parties as coalitions of contingence, forced by 2 party system and all. Fact is most southern racists vote republican now.
Nah bro it's a rigid designator
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On October 29 2012 04:05 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 03:35 HunterX11 wrote:On October 28 2012 07:09 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 28 2012 06:17 HunterX11 wrote:On October 28 2012 04:53 sc2superfan101 wrote: how do you know that they mean racism when they mention people om welfare, food stamps, etc?
and what does the supposed "southern strategy" which had the alleged intent of appealing the segregationists (god I wish people would actually read history) have to do with alleged anti-intellectualism? The Southern Strategy was not a "supposed" or "alleged" strategy: it has been explained by campaign advisers who utilized it! You can argue that it isn't relevant today (which is an opinion with which I'd disagree), but claiming that it was not originally about appealing to racism isn't even an opinion--it's simply factually incorrect. i wrote so many words... for so small an argument.. boredom is a killer: + Show Spoiler + my point, and let this serve as a response to radiatoren also, is that one cannot look at historical sociopolitical shifts as one dimensional events which occur suddenly and in a vacuum, unaffected by those ideas which came before them and made up the ideological world they lived in. whether there was some specific (by specific I mean localized, not general) occurrences of pandering to racist/segregationist elements by specific Republicans or Republican campaigners is not what I am challenging. rather, I challenging two assertions made by the reference to the "southern strategy" as a possible explanation for the alleged anti-intellectualism in the Republican party, allegedly driven by the more conservative elements.
the first assertion (which is implied) is that the Southern Strategy was, and remains, a driving force of intellectual development within the party and movement (Republican and conservative). the second assertion, more explicit in nature, was that there is an anti-intellectualism that composes enough of a part of the conservative/Republican ideology that it could be considered as an accurate, general label.
for the first assertion, I can point to the fact that segregation itself was fought by as many conservative Republicans as progressive ones. in fact, it was not the progressives who drove abolition and later anti-segregation; they simply attached themselves to the Republicans in the late 1800s, early 1900s due to Republican support of an inclusive society. the progressives were primarily redistributive, their support for an inclusive society was largely coincidental. it was not that they supported anti-segregation for the sake of anti-segregation as much as it was a rather practical way to gain votes and grow the tax-paying base at the same time. this is not to say that there were no legitimately anti-segregationist progressives, just that in general, redistribution took precedence over any kind of racial equality.
I could spend hours going through the nuances of Republicanism in the 1900s, but let's skip that and accept the History channel's somewhat simplistic explanations (which completely neglect the 1920s and 30s), so that we can examine the "Southern Strategy's" effect on today's Republicans as an anti-intellectual force. i would assert that both arguments are wrong, 1) that the southern strategy has any consequential effect whatsoever on modern conservative-Republican ideology, and 2) that the southern strategy was, itself, either racist or anti-intellectual. One must ask oneself why the very people who supported desegregation rather vehemently would then turn around without warning and court the segregationists? why would Goldwater and Nixon, both noted anti-racists and anti-segregationists in the 50s and 60s, suddenly in the mid-60s become racist, segregationists? it makes no sense because it didn't happen that way.
the "southern strategy" was as much about anti-Communism as it was about anti-redistribution. further, segregation at that point had become centered around the issue (among other issues) of the federally enforced desegregation of public and private society. many of the people who found themselves on the side of the segregationists on the issue of forced busing, for example, were not racists at all, and in fact some were members of the NAACP and had participated in anti-segregation movements in the 50s and 60s. some of them were even blacks themselves, who opposed busing on the grounds that it was both ineffective and was a federal overreach. their opposition for federally enforced desegregation and affirmative-action were entirely intellectual. it was these people, who were also largely anti-Communist, that the Republicans sought to court. the Democrats (among others) painted it as anti-segregation and as betrayal, and were actually very successful in the propagation of that image.
as for the Southern Strategy being a force on today's policies and ideologies, I would argue that it was in no way a new or radical thing, what the partakers of the so-called "Southern Strategy" were suggesting and arguing for. they argued for anti-Communism, anti-federal expansion, and for the strict maintenance of law and order. these ideas, whether inherently racist or not, were not new and were not receiving some kind of special attention. the writings of William F. Buckley Jr. were by far more influential to the ideological modern conservative than the opinions of some Nixon campaign adviser.
obviously this explanation above is incomplete, as I've completely neglected mentioning the Roosevelt's, the Rockefeller's, Coolidge, the Great Depression, WW2, WW1, Woodrow Wilson, Bull Conner, George Wallace, and have given only the tiniest of nods to Buckley and the National Review. but I think it should suffice to at least show that claiming the "Southern Strategy" was either explicitly and generally racist, or that it was based in anti-intellectualism, is false. as for it being relevant to today's ideology, I would say that the claim is so wild and unsupported as to require significant evidence to even be uttered. one might as well claim the sky as being red and then declare that the onus is on me to prove otherwise.
now, onto the idea that the Republicans are generally anti-intellectual at all. this comes from 1) the rejection of the conservatives of progressivism and redistribution and, 2) the conservative opposition to the perceived progressive take-over of academia. I would argue that the conservative argument against progressivism is very rational and is based on the writings and opinions of very educated men and women who were anything but anti-intellectual. as for whether the conservative perception of academia is correct or well-founded, well, that is not an argument I am prepared to have. it would require hours of research on my part, and would likely have a less-than desirable result. one might argue that conservative ideology is irrelevant to today, or is unworthy of being given attention by our educators, and this is an opinion that cannot be effectively argued by the conservative. what is clear, however, is that the modern conservative ideology is not given nearly the attention by educators as the modern liberal ideology is. the student or scholar is undeniably more likely to hear the arguments against McCarthyism, than the arguments for it's necessity and desirability. whether this is appropriate or not is up to you, but don't accuse those who feel that it is inappropriate to exclude one side of the argument from our teaching about the argument of being anti-intellectual.
as for us deciding which words are "codewords" or not, I will simply leave you with the suggestion that if one assumes a priori that certain phrases or words contain implicit racism than one has effectively engaged in the fallacy of poisoning the well. which could be construed as being anti-intellectual. just sayin'.
(I realize this is short on sources, but most of this is... well, some of it is common knowledge. as for the rest, either take my word for it or prove how not anti-intellectual you are and find some sources that prove me wrong.)
It frankly really concerns me that you could be familiar this familiar with history (as with your previous post about the post-Civil Rights political realignment) and somehow still deny the central role racism has played in American politics. I mean, Lee Atwater himself said it: "You start out in 1954 by saying, 'Nigger, nigger, nigger.' By 1968 you can't say 'nigger' — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, 'We want to cut this,' is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than 'Nigger, nigger.'" I mean, really, you're going to argue that it was just anti-Communism? + Show Spoiler +No racism here, no siree bob! Just good honest people voting for politicians who don't want to get "outniggered again" (yes yes before you go into a tirade about that I'm well aware of Wallace's background, but even if you assume he was never racist, clearly he was appealing to racist voters). i'm gonna have to compile more notes on this, and I'll get back to you. but let's please keep in mind that 1) Lee Atwater was one Republican, and I'm not even sure what he means with that comment or why I should take his interpretation of what happened or what Reagan was campaigning for. As far as I know, the voting habits of the working-class white Southerner remained firmly Democrat until the 1990s. Lee Atwater was more than simply some random Republican. It wasn't until after his famous "nigger" interview on Republican strategy that he became a center stage national platform mouthpiece, first managing H.W's campaign and then becoming the RNC chairman. In order for you to convince anyone that Atwater's perspective is less credible than your own, you are going to have to do more than simply write a barrage of tangentially related paragraphs.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On October 29 2012 04:12 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 04:11 oneofthem wrote: It's surprising to see some guy defending "republican" like a brand. I thought everyone was just using big tent parties as coalitions of contingence, forced by 2 party system and all. Fact is most southern racists vote republican now. Nah bro it's a rigid designator cause all the rigidly designated are rigidly dead.
as a side note posting on the phone is really bad because it forces me to capitalize. yuck
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On October 29 2012 03:56 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 03:43 farvacola wrote:On October 29 2012 03:18 BluePanther wrote:I would argue the premise of that article is incorrect. The recent Wisconsin Governor election is living proof. Huge turnout, huge Republican win (in a Democratic state). Wisconsin is and always has been an outlier insofar as state political dynamics are concerned, going all the way back to the first utterance of "the Wisconsin Idea" in 1904. The mere fact that Wisconsin produced the likes of Russ Feingold, Joe McCarthy, and Paul Ryan is enough to suggest that the state is truly a unique "laboratory for democracy". Also a Wisconsin idea  That may be, but the blanket statement of "more turnout==more Democratic votes" is erroneous imo.
The turnout referred to in the article is the demographic that votes largely democrat. The poor and minorities, generally low income voters that have traditionally been democrat leaning.
They're the ones who're being hit hardest because they can least afford to pay to get ID to vote.
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On October 29 2012 04:12 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 04:11 oneofthem wrote: It's surprising to see some guy defending "republican" like a brand. I thought everyone was just using big tent parties as coalitions of contingence, forced by 2 party system and all. Fact is most southern racists vote republican now. Nah bro it's a rigid designator
I'm having trouble assessing the test.
"The Republican party could have been a different party than it actually is."
Maybe???
edit: Mildly more seriously, I guess the identity conditions on parties are pretty clearly historical, like with species. Parties are individuals.
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oh god froggy please don't take that seriously.... 
edit: no no but species are clouds, not individuals. Species don't have conventions and draft platforms
edit: parties really are brands, more than anything else
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On October 29 2012 04:15 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 04:05 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 29 2012 03:35 HunterX11 wrote:On October 28 2012 07:09 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 28 2012 06:17 HunterX11 wrote:On October 28 2012 04:53 sc2superfan101 wrote: how do you know that they mean racism when they mention people om welfare, food stamps, etc?
and what does the supposed "southern strategy" which had the alleged intent of appealing the segregationists (god I wish people would actually read history) have to do with alleged anti-intellectualism? The Southern Strategy was not a "supposed" or "alleged" strategy: it has been explained by campaign advisers who utilized it! You can argue that it isn't relevant today (which is an opinion with which I'd disagree), but claiming that it was not originally about appealing to racism isn't even an opinion--it's simply factually incorrect. i wrote so many words... for so small an argument.. boredom is a killer: + Show Spoiler + my point, and let this serve as a response to radiatoren also, is that one cannot look at historical sociopolitical shifts as one dimensional events which occur suddenly and in a vacuum, unaffected by those ideas which came before them and made up the ideological world they lived in. whether there was some specific (by specific I mean localized, not general) occurrences of pandering to racist/segregationist elements by specific Republicans or Republican campaigners is not what I am challenging. rather, I challenging two assertions made by the reference to the "southern strategy" as a possible explanation for the alleged anti-intellectualism in the Republican party, allegedly driven by the more conservative elements.
the first assertion (which is implied) is that the Southern Strategy was, and remains, a driving force of intellectual development within the party and movement (Republican and conservative). the second assertion, more explicit in nature, was that there is an anti-intellectualism that composes enough of a part of the conservative/Republican ideology that it could be considered as an accurate, general label.
for the first assertion, I can point to the fact that segregation itself was fought by as many conservative Republicans as progressive ones. in fact, it was not the progressives who drove abolition and later anti-segregation; they simply attached themselves to the Republicans in the late 1800s, early 1900s due to Republican support of an inclusive society. the progressives were primarily redistributive, their support for an inclusive society was largely coincidental. it was not that they supported anti-segregation for the sake of anti-segregation as much as it was a rather practical way to gain votes and grow the tax-paying base at the same time. this is not to say that there were no legitimately anti-segregationist progressives, just that in general, redistribution took precedence over any kind of racial equality.
I could spend hours going through the nuances of Republicanism in the 1900s, but let's skip that and accept the History channel's somewhat simplistic explanations (which completely neglect the 1920s and 30s), so that we can examine the "Southern Strategy's" effect on today's Republicans as an anti-intellectual force. i would assert that both arguments are wrong, 1) that the southern strategy has any consequential effect whatsoever on modern conservative-Republican ideology, and 2) that the southern strategy was, itself, either racist or anti-intellectual. One must ask oneself why the very people who supported desegregation rather vehemently would then turn around without warning and court the segregationists? why would Goldwater and Nixon, both noted anti-racists and anti-segregationists in the 50s and 60s, suddenly in the mid-60s become racist, segregationists? it makes no sense because it didn't happen that way.
the "southern strategy" was as much about anti-Communism as it was about anti-redistribution. further, segregation at that point had become centered around the issue (among other issues) of the federally enforced desegregation of public and private society. many of the people who found themselves on the side of the segregationists on the issue of forced busing, for example, were not racists at all, and in fact some were members of the NAACP and had participated in anti-segregation movements in the 50s and 60s. some of them were even blacks themselves, who opposed busing on the grounds that it was both ineffective and was a federal overreach. their opposition for federally enforced desegregation and affirmative-action were entirely intellectual. it was these people, who were also largely anti-Communist, that the Republicans sought to court. the Democrats (among others) painted it as anti-segregation and as betrayal, and were actually very successful in the propagation of that image.
as for the Southern Strategy being a force on today's policies and ideologies, I would argue that it was in no way a new or radical thing, what the partakers of the so-called "Southern Strategy" were suggesting and arguing for. they argued for anti-Communism, anti-federal expansion, and for the strict maintenance of law and order. these ideas, whether inherently racist or not, were not new and were not receiving some kind of special attention. the writings of William F. Buckley Jr. were by far more influential to the ideological modern conservative than the opinions of some Nixon campaign adviser.
obviously this explanation above is incomplete, as I've completely neglected mentioning the Roosevelt's, the Rockefeller's, Coolidge, the Great Depression, WW2, WW1, Woodrow Wilson, Bull Conner, George Wallace, and have given only the tiniest of nods to Buckley and the National Review. but I think it should suffice to at least show that claiming the "Southern Strategy" was either explicitly and generally racist, or that it was based in anti-intellectualism, is false. as for it being relevant to today's ideology, I would say that the claim is so wild and unsupported as to require significant evidence to even be uttered. one might as well claim the sky as being red and then declare that the onus is on me to prove otherwise.
now, onto the idea that the Republicans are generally anti-intellectual at all. this comes from 1) the rejection of the conservatives of progressivism and redistribution and, 2) the conservative opposition to the perceived progressive take-over of academia. I would argue that the conservative argument against progressivism is very rational and is based on the writings and opinions of very educated men and women who were anything but anti-intellectual. as for whether the conservative perception of academia is correct or well-founded, well, that is not an argument I am prepared to have. it would require hours of research on my part, and would likely have a less-than desirable result. one might argue that conservative ideology is irrelevant to today, or is unworthy of being given attention by our educators, and this is an opinion that cannot be effectively argued by the conservative. what is clear, however, is that the modern conservative ideology is not given nearly the attention by educators as the modern liberal ideology is. the student or scholar is undeniably more likely to hear the arguments against McCarthyism, than the arguments for it's necessity and desirability. whether this is appropriate or not is up to you, but don't accuse those who feel that it is inappropriate to exclude one side of the argument from our teaching about the argument of being anti-intellectual.
as for us deciding which words are "codewords" or not, I will simply leave you with the suggestion that if one assumes a priori that certain phrases or words contain implicit racism than one has effectively engaged in the fallacy of poisoning the well. which could be construed as being anti-intellectual. just sayin'.
(I realize this is short on sources, but most of this is... well, some of it is common knowledge. as for the rest, either take my word for it or prove how not anti-intellectual you are and find some sources that prove me wrong.)
It frankly really concerns me that you could be familiar this familiar with history (as with your previous post about the post-Civil Rights political realignment) and somehow still deny the central role racism has played in American politics. I mean, Lee Atwater himself said it: "You start out in 1954 by saying, 'Nigger, nigger, nigger.' By 1968 you can't say 'nigger' — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, 'We want to cut this,' is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than 'Nigger, nigger.'" I mean, really, you're going to argue that it was just anti-Communism? + Show Spoiler +No racism here, no siree bob! Just good honest people voting for politicians who don't want to get "outniggered again" (yes yes before you go into a tirade about that I'm well aware of Wallace's background, but even if you assume he was never racist, clearly he was appealing to racist voters). i'm gonna have to compile more notes on this, and I'll get back to you. but let's please keep in mind that 1) Lee Atwater was one Republican, and I'm not even sure what he means with that comment or why I should take his interpretation of what happened or what Reagan was campaigning for. As far as I know, the voting habits of the working-class white Southerner remained firmly Democrat until the 1990s. Lee Atwater was more than simply some random Republican. It wasn't until after his famous "nigger" interview on Republican strategy that he became a center stage national platform mouthpiece, first managing H.W's campaign and then becoming the RNC chairman. In order for you to convince anyone that Atwater's perspective is less credible than your own, you are going to have to do more than simply write a barrage of tangentially related paragraphs. What I think is even more remarkable about it is that he did it "anonymously", which in this case might actually give more credibility to this particular statement. Lee Atwater is known as a very brutal spindoctor and he seemingly understood a lot about how to appeal to certain groups in a way that caused them to vote a certain way. That he specifically mentioned the african american debacle is a sign of the issues importance.
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On October 29 2012 04:15 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 04:05 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 29 2012 03:35 HunterX11 wrote:On October 28 2012 07:09 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 28 2012 06:17 HunterX11 wrote:On October 28 2012 04:53 sc2superfan101 wrote: how do you know that they mean racism when they mention people om welfare, food stamps, etc?
and what does the supposed "southern strategy" which had the alleged intent of appealing the segregationists (god I wish people would actually read history) have to do with alleged anti-intellectualism? The Southern Strategy was not a "supposed" or "alleged" strategy: it has been explained by campaign advisers who utilized it! You can argue that it isn't relevant today (which is an opinion with which I'd disagree), but claiming that it was not originally about appealing to racism isn't even an opinion--it's simply factually incorrect. i wrote so many words... for so small an argument.. boredom is a killer: + Show Spoiler + my point, and let this serve as a response to radiatoren also, is that one cannot look at historical sociopolitical shifts as one dimensional events which occur suddenly and in a vacuum, unaffected by those ideas which came before them and made up the ideological world they lived in. whether there was some specific (by specific I mean localized, not general) occurrences of pandering to racist/segregationist elements by specific Republicans or Republican campaigners is not what I am challenging. rather, I challenging two assertions made by the reference to the "southern strategy" as a possible explanation for the alleged anti-intellectualism in the Republican party, allegedly driven by the more conservative elements.
the first assertion (which is implied) is that the Southern Strategy was, and remains, a driving force of intellectual development within the party and movement (Republican and conservative). the second assertion, more explicit in nature, was that there is an anti-intellectualism that composes enough of a part of the conservative/Republican ideology that it could be considered as an accurate, general label.
for the first assertion, I can point to the fact that segregation itself was fought by as many conservative Republicans as progressive ones. in fact, it was not the progressives who drove abolition and later anti-segregation; they simply attached themselves to the Republicans in the late 1800s, early 1900s due to Republican support of an inclusive society. the progressives were primarily redistributive, their support for an inclusive society was largely coincidental. it was not that they supported anti-segregation for the sake of anti-segregation as much as it was a rather practical way to gain votes and grow the tax-paying base at the same time. this is not to say that there were no legitimately anti-segregationist progressives, just that in general, redistribution took precedence over any kind of racial equality.
I could spend hours going through the nuances of Republicanism in the 1900s, but let's skip that and accept the History channel's somewhat simplistic explanations (which completely neglect the 1920s and 30s), so that we can examine the "Southern Strategy's" effect on today's Republicans as an anti-intellectual force. i would assert that both arguments are wrong, 1) that the southern strategy has any consequential effect whatsoever on modern conservative-Republican ideology, and 2) that the southern strategy was, itself, either racist or anti-intellectual. One must ask oneself why the very people who supported desegregation rather vehemently would then turn around without warning and court the segregationists? why would Goldwater and Nixon, both noted anti-racists and anti-segregationists in the 50s and 60s, suddenly in the mid-60s become racist, segregationists? it makes no sense because it didn't happen that way.
the "southern strategy" was as much about anti-Communism as it was about anti-redistribution. further, segregation at that point had become centered around the issue (among other issues) of the federally enforced desegregation of public and private society. many of the people who found themselves on the side of the segregationists on the issue of forced busing, for example, were not racists at all, and in fact some were members of the NAACP and had participated in anti-segregation movements in the 50s and 60s. some of them were even blacks themselves, who opposed busing on the grounds that it was both ineffective and was a federal overreach. their opposition for federally enforced desegregation and affirmative-action were entirely intellectual. it was these people, who were also largely anti-Communist, that the Republicans sought to court. the Democrats (among others) painted it as anti-segregation and as betrayal, and were actually very successful in the propagation of that image.
as for the Southern Strategy being a force on today's policies and ideologies, I would argue that it was in no way a new or radical thing, what the partakers of the so-called "Southern Strategy" were suggesting and arguing for. they argued for anti-Communism, anti-federal expansion, and for the strict maintenance of law and order. these ideas, whether inherently racist or not, were not new and were not receiving some kind of special attention. the writings of William F. Buckley Jr. were by far more influential to the ideological modern conservative than the opinions of some Nixon campaign adviser.
obviously this explanation above is incomplete, as I've completely neglected mentioning the Roosevelt's, the Rockefeller's, Coolidge, the Great Depression, WW2, WW1, Woodrow Wilson, Bull Conner, George Wallace, and have given only the tiniest of nods to Buckley and the National Review. but I think it should suffice to at least show that claiming the "Southern Strategy" was either explicitly and generally racist, or that it was based in anti-intellectualism, is false. as for it being relevant to today's ideology, I would say that the claim is so wild and unsupported as to require significant evidence to even be uttered. one might as well claim the sky as being red and then declare that the onus is on me to prove otherwise.
now, onto the idea that the Republicans are generally anti-intellectual at all. this comes from 1) the rejection of the conservatives of progressivism and redistribution and, 2) the conservative opposition to the perceived progressive take-over of academia. I would argue that the conservative argument against progressivism is very rational and is based on the writings and opinions of very educated men and women who were anything but anti-intellectual. as for whether the conservative perception of academia is correct or well-founded, well, that is not an argument I am prepared to have. it would require hours of research on my part, and would likely have a less-than desirable result. one might argue that conservative ideology is irrelevant to today, or is unworthy of being given attention by our educators, and this is an opinion that cannot be effectively argued by the conservative. what is clear, however, is that the modern conservative ideology is not given nearly the attention by educators as the modern liberal ideology is. the student or scholar is undeniably more likely to hear the arguments against McCarthyism, than the arguments for it's necessity and desirability. whether this is appropriate or not is up to you, but don't accuse those who feel that it is inappropriate to exclude one side of the argument from our teaching about the argument of being anti-intellectual.
as for us deciding which words are "codewords" or not, I will simply leave you with the suggestion that if one assumes a priori that certain phrases or words contain implicit racism than one has effectively engaged in the fallacy of poisoning the well. which could be construed as being anti-intellectual. just sayin'.
(I realize this is short on sources, but most of this is... well, some of it is common knowledge. as for the rest, either take my word for it or prove how not anti-intellectual you are and find some sources that prove me wrong.)
It frankly really concerns me that you could be familiar this familiar with history (as with your previous post about the post-Civil Rights political realignment) and somehow still deny the central role racism has played in American politics. I mean, Lee Atwater himself said it: "You start out in 1954 by saying, 'Nigger, nigger, nigger.' By 1968 you can't say 'nigger' — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, 'We want to cut this,' is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than 'Nigger, nigger.'" I mean, really, you're going to argue that it was just anti-Communism? + Show Spoiler +No racism here, no siree bob! Just good honest people voting for politicians who don't want to get "outniggered again" (yes yes before you go into a tirade about that I'm well aware of Wallace's background, but even if you assume he was never racist, clearly he was appealing to racist voters). i'm gonna have to compile more notes on this, and I'll get back to you. but let's please keep in mind that 1) Lee Atwater was one Republican, and I'm not even sure what he means with that comment or why I should take his interpretation of what happened or what Reagan was campaigning for. As far as I know, the voting habits of the working-class white Southerner remained firmly Democrat until the 1990s. Lee Atwater was more than simply some random Republican. It wasn't until after his famous "nigger" interview on Republican strategy that he became a center stage national platform mouthpiece, first managing H.W's campaign and then becoming the RNC chairman. In order for you to convince anyone that Atwater's perspective is less credible than your own, you are going to have to do more than simply write a barrage of tangentially related paragraphs. Lee Atwater was also 16 years old during the Nixon election... so you'll forgive me if I happen to question his credentials in knowing the intimate thoughts of the Nixon and Goldwater campaigners. thus far, besides Atwater's somewhat cryptic comment I have little evidence of the kind of demographic switch or platform switch that allegedly occurred. so we've got the word of a person who was 12 and 16 during the event, and not much else. especially when I'm not even sure what the fuck he's getting at with his comment, considering the fact that in 1954, Lee Atwater was 3 years old, and the Republicans were not saying "Nigger Nigger Nigger" they were fighting for the passage of Civil Rights bills. fighting Democrats.
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Ah, yes, the old "Republicans are racists" argument. Brilliant commentary, guys.
EDIT: The real racists are the democrats and liberals who refuse to let a colorblind society develop. Instead, these hypocrites spend all of their time dividing us among racial, gender, and other demographic lines. The biggest impediment to the elimination of racism in America is the democratic party.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On October 29 2012 04:52 xDaunt wrote: Ah, yes, the old "Republicans are racists" argument. Brilliant commentary, guys.
Both parties are racist. Let's not try to kid ourselves here.
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I'm no Dem apologist, but ignoring structural inequality is not the way to produce a "colorblind society." You have to actually produce a "colorblind society" before you can have one. I don't see the GOP thinking much about that issue...
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
yea we really are preventing color blind society to develop by turning a blind eye to real, actual, concrete, on the ground problems based on race.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
The good ol' "everything will be fine if we just leave it alone" argument. Seemed to work well for slavery and segregation.
Oh wait...
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It's true that our current attempts to solve these issues, like everything else we do in politics, is a self-propagating bandaid.
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On October 29 2012 04:55 sam!zdat wrote: I'm no Dem apologist, but ignoring structural inequality is not the way to produce a "colorblind society." You have to actually produce a "colorblind society" before you can have one. I don't see the GOP thinking much about that issue... See, I disagree on this "chicken and the egg" problem. I don't think that the structural inequalities that you reference can be eliminated until there's a colorblind society.
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