welfare spending per family is vastly lower than 50k or whatever number you get from cato. it's no wonder since libertarianism cannot account for consequences, or the existence of non agent people. dohoho. and yes, i can prove it for you if you are capable of following simple, logical arguments. i have low expectation of this so not going to bother.
evidence of romney's so called corruption is not a necessary demand given that this is a speculative discussion anyway and the usual interest examination is enough to form behavioral predicting models. the same way you conclude that a certain political institution is vulnerable to interest capture because, guess what, interest groups, even without designating particular interested individuals let alone specific acts. in romney's case we've got this guy who'd rather contribute to his cultist group instead of useful programs to actually help people, all the while leveraging and clawing the fuck out of pensioners and workers who are obviously burdens on the continued profitability of the assets under bain management. his consistent record in getting federal money for the stuff he wants, all the while making sure those things that he wants is pretty different from what the electorate wants, is sufficient to cast aspersion on his good faith, if the 47% thing doesn't already.
but if you are going to be a hardass about this, here's some support for the idea that we must return medical service resources to the states so they can not use it. this guy calls it money laundering from medicaid, something romney is probably very good at.
and here's romney touting his ability to get federal funds for stuff he likes.
Romney: "I am big believer in getting money where the money is. The money is in Washington."
when a guy's entire professional expertise consists in disconnecting the money from its original aim, structure and appearance, it makes me so angry when people accuse him of corruption without evidence.
On October 28 2012 21:40 Cutlery wrote: Point is. If you are poor, you'll have better opportunities "making it" in Europe.
Europe!? It kinda puzzles me to see the term "Europe" used so much. Does it refer to EU?! Also still ..there is a great amount of difference between Germany, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and then Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal (not to mention all the east-EU countries).
In Denmark it dosn't even make sense to speak of the "poor". Almost anybody can get like 2000$/month.
On October 28 2012 18:09 naastyOne wrote: I do not get the "inequality" thing.
The point of the goverment is to advance the falt value not attempt to make everyone at same level.
Not everyone is as disciplined, determined and focused, the near-to-perfect equality is impossible to achive in realistic world, and generally attempts to achive equality only made life worse for everyone involved.
The reason we are the cociety we are, is that we are striving to get better ourselves, and compete with eachother.
There are harder jobs, that require time, effort and means of sustaining yourself to master, If you will only get same, as the unqualified labour, why waste time and efforts getting into harder field?
Why innovate, when everyone has more or less the same things, and other people will not like that you got ahead of others?
The inequality is absolutely nececery for progress, and increase in quality of life for everyone.
Who says anything about making "everyone at same level"? We're not asking for communism here.
The fact is the current level of inequality in terms of income, consumption and opportunity in the US is unprecedented, compared to both other advanced countries, and compared to the US in the past. Inequality has exploded.
While some small amount of inequality is good, a large amount of inequality is bad. For example, it's a waste of human capital when poor, smart kids don't get the opportunity to fulfill their potential (yes, social mobility is extremely low in the US compared to other countries), it allows the rich to more easily buy the political process, and it reduces aggregate demand because rich people save a greater proportion of their money whereas poor people must spend a greater proportion.
You can read about the stats that back this up in that wikipedia article linked earlier.
Again, I`m argunig that having inequality reasonbly large is a good thing. Not a small amout, but a very noticable, but not extreeme amount.
US is nowhere near to poorest country in the world. In fact with (probable) exeption of Northern Europe and Canada, US have the best opportunities for poor.
The immobility is an obvious problem brought by expencive and low quality education.
In most of the countries in the world, you can hire college graduates for less than 1k US dollars per month, that will have similar education quality as US universities. Try that in US.
US just got ahead, in post-WW2 world, and now the third world is catching back.
Untill US reaches the similar cost efficency as most of the world, it`s poor`s quality of live would only increase due to life becoming cheaper.
And if you think that in US money influence politics too much, try looking at most of the world where there is no fundrasing from the base similar to US, and political parties are on 100% payroll of the very rich people, with public not taking the idea of funding political campaings good.
Did i mention the billion of virtually unacountable parties, politicans that come to steal as much as they can and often not even seek reelection, and huge, corrupt goverments.
It's simply not true that the US has the most opportunity for the poor. When measured in terms of poor kids moving upwards or rich kids moving downwards, the US is on par with Pakistan, it has less equality of opportunity than every advanced country except UK and Italy according to this graph (y-axis): Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the_United_States
Why would the rich kids move downward ever?
Than, as i said,and you should actually read everything, US is not the best, but still one of the better part, besides countries you side are nowhere near the entire world.
Besides, you need to factor in the incomes, since the "middle class" citizens in a lot of countries are still worth off than the poor in US.
Then, the gini coeficent is a very much subject to bad calculations, especially considering that it is not clear when it is tax adjusted or not, and does it factor the grey economy, or not, so sorry if the data posted, is not impressive.
Then, you as so many people mistake the equility of outcome to the equility of opportunity.
Where are you getting this idea that the US has good socioeconomic mobility, i.e. that it's easy for smart, poor people to get ahead? Cite your sources.
You keep saying it's true, but the graph I've posted shows it's not true. The US has never bad socioeconomic mobility, as bad as Pakistan, and worse than almost every other advanced nation.
Why are you talking about the GINI coefficient? I'm talking about the y-axis which shows mobility, not the x-axis, but if you want to go there, the US is also very bad.
I'm not mistaking equality of outcome with equality of opportunity. I pointed to the y-axis of the graph -- socioeconomic mobility, that is a good measure of equality of opportunity, and it shows that US has bad equality of opportunity.
How about your own grapth? I said, that apart from EU and Canada, US is better than most of the world. Ok, i forgot Japan&Australia&NZ.
Again, can you actually factor in how the inheritance factors in income, since the majority of rich people income comes from holding property, because when we speak about households incomes of 300+ thousands a year, that sum mostly come from the savings income, not your direct wage & earnings.
What your graph fails to distinguish, is the income dependent on personal work, and income that is independent from it. Hence the problems.
But. I mostly agree with you that due to far greater taxes, and some other things, EU has better social mobility than US.
And i`m also blaming the third world competition for that, that sucks the high pay employment into it.
Still, US has not so bad social mobility, and is very far from being a bad place to live in.
On October 28 2012 20:08 paralleluniverse wrote: Please write properly. So you're basically arguing that if you're born rich, you should stay rich, even if you do nothing to deserve that wealth.
People who argue against inequality as a problem believe in individualism. That people should work hard and earn what they get. So you're a hypocrite to argue that rich kids should stay rich just because their parents are, without doing anything to deserve it.
They are the children of their parents. The parents decided to give them their wealth. If you`re arguing that people should not be capable of leaving all that they had, to their children, what is the point of having them?
Again, it is a right of their parrents, to distribute the money they earned, the way they see fit.
I know some people(not neerely you) think that people are just born from a random vagina, but genetic sugest otherwise.
The attempt to provide level field for every person, deprives the perents of that persons, to use the money they earned, the way they see fit.
I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, but are you saying children's purpose is so you have somewhere for your wealth to go?
I don't mind people leaving stuff to their kids, but I really don't think that's all there is when it comes to the choice to have a child.
Also BluePanther, Hillary is awesome
I`m saying is that if the parent chose to provide as much of (income) advantage their children, it is their right to do so, and it should not be infringed, that includes inheritance& other things.
While i do not see it as the only factor to have children, i surely want so that all i left after me, went to them, and only them.
And yes, i shamelessly say, that i will try to provide my kids as much of an advantage in life, as i can. After all, they are 1/2 of me.
On October 28 2012 20:31 paralleluniverse wrote:
On October 28 2012 20:15 naastyOne wrote:
On October 28 2012 20:03 paralleluniverse wrote:
On October 28 2012 19:32 naastyOne wrote:
On October 28 2012 19:16 paralleluniverse wrote:
On October 28 2012 18:41 naastyOne wrote:
On October 28 2012 18:29 paralleluniverse wrote:
On October 28 2012 18:09 naastyOne wrote: I do not get the "inequality" thing.
The point of the goverment is to advance the falt value not attempt to make everyone at same level.
Not everyone is as disciplined, determined and focused, the near-to-perfect equality is impossible to achive in realistic world, and generally attempts to achive equality only made life worse for everyone involved.
The reason we are the cociety we are, is that we are striving to get better ourselves, and compete with eachother.
There are harder jobs, that require time, effort and means of sustaining yourself to master, If you will only get same, as the unqualified labour, why waste time and efforts getting into harder field?
Why innovate, when everyone has more or less the same things, and other people will not like that you got ahead of others?
The inequality is absolutely nececery for progress, and increase in quality of life for everyone.
Who says anything about making "everyone at same level"? We're not asking for communism here.
The fact is the current level of inequality in terms of income, consumption and opportunity in the US is unprecedented, compared to both other advanced countries, and compared to the US in the past. Inequality has exploded.
While some small amount of inequality is good, a large amount of inequality is bad. For example, it's a waste of human capital when poor, smart kids don't get the opportunity to fulfill their potential (yes, social mobility is extremely low in the US compared to other countries), it allows the rich to more easily buy the political process, and it reduces aggregate demand because rich people save a greater proportion of their money whereas poor people must spend a greater proportion.
You can read about the stats that back this up in that wikipedia article linked earlier.
Again, I`m argunig that having inequality reasonbly large is a good thing. Not a small amout, but a very noticable, but not extreeme amount.
US is nowhere near to poorest country in the world. In fact with (probable) exeption of Northern Europe and Canada, US have the best opportunities for poor.
The immobility is an obvious problem brought by expencive and low quality education.
In most of the countries in the world, you can hire college graduates for less than 1k US dollars per month, that will have similar education quality as US universities. Try that in US.
US just got ahead, in post-WW2 world, and now the third world is catching back.
Untill US reaches the similar cost efficency as most of the world, it`s poor`s quality of live would only increase due to life becoming cheaper.
And if you think that in US money influence politics too much, try looking at most of the world where there is no fundrasing from the base similar to US, and political parties are on 100% payroll of the very rich people, with public not taking the idea of funding political campaings good.
Did i mention the billion of virtually unacountable parties, politicans that come to steal as much as they can and often not even seek reelection, and huge, corrupt goverments.
It's simply not true that the US has the most opportunity for the poor. When measured in terms of poor kids moving upwards or rich kids moving downwards, the US is on par with Pakistan, it has less equality of opportunity than every advanced country except UK and Italy according to this graph (y-axis): Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the_United_States
Why would the rich kids move downward ever?
Than, as i said,and you should actually read everything, US is not the best, but still one of the better part, besides countries you side are nowhere near the entire world.
Besides, you need to factor in the incomes, since the "middle class" citizens in a lot of countries are still worth off than the poor in US.
Then, the gini coeficent is a very much subject to bad calculations, especially considering that it is not clear when it is tax adjusted or not, and does it factor the grey economy, or not, so sorry if the data posted, is not impressive.
Then, you as so many people mistake the equility of outcome to the equility of opportunity.
Where are you getting this idea that the US has good socioeconomic mobility, i.e. that it's easy for smart, poor people to get ahead? Cite your sources.
You keep saying it's true, but the graph I've posted shows it's not true. The US has never bad socioeconomic mobility, as bad as Pakistan, and worse than almost every other advanced nation.
Why are you talking about the GINI coefficient? I'm talking about the y-axis which shows mobility, not the x-axis, but if you want to go there, the US is also very bad.
I'm not mistaking equality of outcome with equality of opportunity. I pointed to the y-axis of the graph -- socioeconomic mobility, that is a good measure of equality of opportunity, and it shows that US has bad equality of opportunity.
How about your own grapth? I said, that apart from EU and Canada, US is better than most of the world. Ok, i forgot Japan&Australia&NZ.
Again, can you actually factor in how the inheritance factors in income, since the majority of rich people income comes from holding property, because when we speak about households incomes of 300+ thousands a year, that sum mostly come from the savings income, not your direct wage & earnings.
What your graph fails to distinguish, is the income dependent on personal work, and income that is independent from it. Hence the problems.
But. I mostly agree with you that due to far greater taxes, and some other things, EU has better social mobility than US.
And i`m also blaming the third world competition for that, that sucks the high pay employment into it.
Still, US has not so bad social mobility, and is very far from being a bad place to live in.
That's like saying: apart from everyone that makes more money than burger-flippers at McDonald's, janitors are paid very high wages.
I said that the US has worse socioeconomic mobility than virtually every advanced country, and that's true. You said that: "US is not the best, but still one of the better part, besides countries you side are nowhere near the entire world."
Disregarding the fact that I can barely make out what you're saying, you say that US is one of the best countries for equality of opportunity. But that's also not true. You also said that I'm confusing equality of outcome with equality of opportunity (it's seems you've retracted that claim now). And that's also not true. It's worse than the EU countries, worse than Canada, Japan, Australia and NZ, and that basically makes up the entire advanced world. Everything else is 2nd and 3rd world countries. So yes, the US has more equality of opportunity than 2nd and 3rd world countries like China. And that's suppose to be "The American Dream".
The graph simply measures mobility, i.e. movement from a low income percentile, to a high income percentile. Why should it matter whether the income is inherited through property or earned by work?
And if you want to be taken seriously, stop making things up and cite your sources.
The problem is 2d and 3d world is much bigger than "advanced" world.
For equality of opportunity, your graph provides exactly the equility of outcome measure , not equility of opportunity.
If you are able to leave a large inheritance for your children, it reduces their incentive to work, which is bad for the economy. That's one of the many reasons why inequality is bad. The other reasons that I've listed earlier, you've chosen to dodge and ignore.
The US isn't a 2nd or 3rd world country, it's a 1st world country. It's the richest country on Earth. It should not be compared to 2nd and 3rd world countries.
The graph essentially measures the extend to which kids that are born in to a poor income percentile, grow up to be in a richer income percentile. If there is high equality of opportunity, you'll see many poor kids grow up to be a lot richer, and if there's low equality of opportunity then you'll see many poor kids stay poor.
That's why it measures equality of opportunity.
Now can you stop making stuff up and provide some evidence behind you're claims? You're just pulling shit out of your ass, and it's all wrong.
Your argument has also become contradictory and doesn't follow. Your chart's problem is that the US has very low social mobility, so indeed rich kids are not becoming poor, they're staying rich.
The biggest problem with inequality isn't that rich kids get lazy and stop working, it's that they have better access to more education and resources than other people so they're better able to protect their family wealth. How hard they work isn't the issue so much as how easy it is for them to work and be successful. Chelsea Clinton can get into better schools and can get better jobs than you can just because her parents are prominent people. Is she smarter or harder working or otherwise more deserving than you are? It doesn't really matter, and THAT'S the problem.
Social mobility is an imperfect measure of equality of opportunity, but we can have that discussion of whether opportunities are truly unequal. But you have the continuing problem that higher taxes on the rich doesn't seem to solve or even alleviate this problem, does it? Would Sasha and Malia Obama have an equal chance as everyone else of getting into Harvard or finding a good job just because their dad pays 35% of his income in taxes instead of 20%?
crony capitalism works because the professional management class is highly efficient so you can get vast amount of slack in performance/pay for some people, all the while recognizing the critical importance of "networking" in all levels of the business world, which obviously involves expensive government networking.
if we are to be serious about burdens and freeloaders etc, we define it by economic rent, and this is collected by the rich and entrenched in far greater proportion.
get real about education and whatever. you don't need that much education if you don't do work that relates to your studies. it's a signal and a posiitonal good to some people. the true value of harvard yale etc to george bush is not the same as its value to average asian premed.
dudes like romney are responsible for chatting up other guys like romney while the technical operations are carried out by the guys responsible for that.
High Income Taxes encourage growth. They encourage the wealthy to reinvest in stocks and businesses rather than taking home of the money as income. 40% isn't high enough. I'd say it should be more around 50%.
It's about designing the incentives such that the wealthy are encouraged to contribute as much as possible to the economy.
Let's stop talking about what number is right in some vague moral sense. Let's stop yammering about vague mentions of socialism and capitalism which seems to confuse me. After all, it really sounds like Republicans consider Keynesian Economics to be socialism, despite the fact it's basically the definition of capitalism.
Let's talk about what system actually works. High Income Taxes actually does work at both generating revenue and growing the economy.
Here's Right-Wing Ben Stein on Right-Wing Fox News talking about why taxes are too low:
The problem with inequality of opportunity is that it distorts the principles upon which the economy is founded, that free competition will naturally lead towards optimum efficiency. Banks obviously want to hire the best bankers, law firms want to hire the best lawyers and so forth and with free and fair competition for jobs the market will price their skills and, in trying to maximise their output, put the people best suited for a job in that job. But it all goes to shit once externalities distort the market for labour by preventing those most naturally able from getting the qualifications or those with least connections from getting their resumes seen. Inequality of opportunity is simply bad capitalism, capitalism thrives on competition.
On October 28 2012 22:19 KwarK wrote: The problem with inequality of opportunity is that it distorts the principles upon which the economy is founded, that free competition will naturally lead towards optimum efficiency. Banks obviously want to hire the best bankers, law firms want to hire the best lawyers and so forth and with free and fair competition for jobs the market will price their skills and, in trying to maximise their output, put the people best suited for a job in that job. But it all goes to shit once externalities distort the market for labour by preventing those most naturally able from getting the qualifications or those with least connections from getting their resumes seen. Inequality of opportunity is simply bad capitalism, capitalism thrives on competition.
that kind of worry for the lack of efficiency is almost secondary. even a corrupt system can be highly efficient at generating wealth and production, all the while distorting distribution vastly more severely. this distortion coupled with the oligarchy's lack of common interests with the unproductive segments of society leads to malinvestment of social resources.
the obsession with pareto optimality is rather demonstrative of the shallowness of normative thinking in economics.
the best part, conserning the "grow of inequality":
First, I think the process of globalisation, which has moved billions of people out of dire poverty, is worth defending loudly and proudly, even if it came along with a costly side order of dysfunctional American politics and policymaking. We have a moral responsibility to be very clear about what aspects of globalisation we think should change and why, because the cost of encouraging a broader backlash against the process of liberalisation, with all the great good it generates, is simply too high.
And second, it seems to me that an effort to restore the bargaining power of labour by having a showdown over outsourcing or by trying to reinvigorate the labour movement is destined for failure. The rise in worker bargaining power that occurred in the first half of the last century was a product of social movements, but those movements were enabled by the production technologies of the time, and it is the dissolution of those production technologies that has been most responsible for the weakening of labour's position. As Mr Krugman understands very well (his work on the topic helped earn him a Nobel Prize) the transportation technologies of the industrial revolution dictated in favour of large, industrial agglomerations. Geographic concentration enabled worker solidarity, and the benefits of the agglomeration meant that employers couldn't credibly threaten to move elsewhere. But the days of the large, urban industrial agglomeration are gone.
If labour is to capture more of the producer surplus—or have more of a say in Washington, for that matter—it will be as a result of a social evolution that matches the production technologies of today. That's a much, much harder process to think about and talk about than a call for the return of the glory days of labour. It's certainly not the sort of thing that lends itself to deployment in the binary dialogue of a presidential campaign. The truth is that Bain didn't really do anything wrong by outsourcing. It could have not done it, but that would primarily have created a profit opportunity for someone else. It may say something about Mitt Romney that he was the man who opted to take the profits. But the nature and distribution of economic activity is about the interaction between technology and institutions, and not about whether an individual capitalist tries to be fair or not. It's not Mitt Romney's fault that the median worker hasn't gotten a real pay increase in over 30 years. And Mr Romney's Bain experience might cost him the election, but that's not going to bring real pay increases back, either.
Here's what another article from The Economist says:
Does inequality really need to be tackled? The twin forces of globalisation and technical innovation have actually narrowed inequality globally, as poorer countries catch up with richer ones. But within many countries income gaps have widened. More than two-thirds of the world’s people live in countries where income disparities have risen since 1980, often to a startling degree. In America the share of national income going to the top 0.01% (some 16,000 families) has risen from just over 1% in 1980 to almost 5% now—an even bigger slice than the top 0.01% got in the Gilded Age.
It is also true that some measure of inequality is good for an economy. It sharpens incentives to work hard and take risks; it rewards the talented innovators who drive economic progress. Free-traders have always accepted that the more global a market, the greater the rewards will be for the winners. But as our special report this week argues, inequality has reached a stage where it can be inefficient and bad for growth.
The article you linked basically argues that globalization isn't a cause of inequality by quoting Krugman this year and comparing it to a Krugman quote from 1997. However, Krugman has changed his views since 1997.
Here's a video (from a earlier this week actually) where Krugman explains his views (go to 31:54):
Basically he says that 17 years ago he was arguing that trade with poor countries wasn't a major cause of inequality because there wasn't that much of it back then, but this is no longer true. He further explains, that the solution isn't protectionist policies because globalization is good for poor countries (which is part of what he argued in that 1997 article).
On October 28 2012 21:40 Cutlery wrote: Point is. If you are poor, you'll have better opportunities "making it" in Europe.
Europe!? It kinda puzzles me to see the term "Europe" used so much. Does it refer to EU?! Also still ..there is a great amount of difference between Germany, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and then Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal (not to mention all the east-EU countries).
In Denmark it dosn't even make sense to speak of the "poor". Almost anybody can get like 2000$/month.
Absolute poverty is not really interesting, take into consideration relativ poverty (60% of the median salary) : with 2000 $/month you can be poor if everybody gain 5000 $/month.
On October 28 2012 22:19 KwarK wrote: The problem with inequality of opportunity is that it distorts the principles upon which the economy is founded, that free competition will naturally lead towards optimum efficiency. Banks obviously want to hire the best bankers, law firms want to hire the best lawyers and so forth and with free and fair competition for jobs the market will price their skills and, in trying to maximise their output, put the people best suited for a job in that job. But it all goes to shit once externalities distort the market for labour by preventing those most naturally able from getting the qualifications or those with least connections from getting their resumes seen. Inequality of opportunity is simply bad capitalism, capitalism thrives on competition.
that kind of worry for the lack of efficiency is almost secondary. even a corrupt system can be highly efficient at generating wealth and production, all the while distorting distribution vastly more severely. this distortion coupled with the oligarchy's lack of common interests with the unproductive segments of society leads to malinvestment of social resources.
the obsession with pareto optimality is rather demonstrative of the shallowness of normative thinking in economics.
This is only partially true. I think the concern about lack of efficiency is secondary, but I don't think you should take for granted that a corrupt system can be highly efficient. By definition, it cannot be efficient, the question is whether a corrupt regime can generate enough growth to bear the costs of corruption. The entire survival of the regime hinges on this, hence the newfound interest in China on cracking down on the worst excesses.
The fundamental principle must be growth. In order for a society to prosper, it must generate economic growth and translate that into social growth. IMO there is too much focus on social growth while taking economic growth for granted. I think President Obama's greatest failure is conning the American public into believing in the V-shaped recovery and persisting the myth. Recall that 2011 was the year it was all supposed to get better and go back to pre-crisis levels. Now it's 2014. His policies have changed nothing in terms of the real economy and the real economy has not healed.
There is some other big shoes out there waiting to drop too, from the revelation that the War on Terror is bigger than anyone is letting on to the fact that drones are killing far more people than you think they are and you might not be happy with who the White House thinks deserves to die and why.
the best part, conserning the "grow of inequality":
First, I think the process of globalisation, which has moved billions of people out of dire poverty, is worth defending loudly and proudly, even if it came along with a costly side order of dysfunctional American politics and policymaking. We have a moral responsibility to be very clear about what aspects of globalisation we think should change and why, because the cost of encouraging a broader backlash against the process of liberalisation, with all the great good it generates, is simply too high.
And second, it seems to me that an effort to restore the bargaining power of labour by having a showdown over outsourcing or by trying to reinvigorate the labour movement is destined for failure. The rise in worker bargaining power that occurred in the first half of the last century was a product of social movements, but those movements were enabled by the production technologies of the time, and it is the dissolution of those production technologies that has been most responsible for the weakening of labour's position. As Mr Krugman understands very well (his work on the topic helped earn him a Nobel Prize) the transportation technologies of the industrial revolution dictated in favour of large, industrial agglomerations. Geographic concentration enabled worker solidarity, and the benefits of the agglomeration meant that employers couldn't credibly threaten to move elsewhere. But the days of the large, urban industrial agglomeration are gone.
If labour is to capture more of the producer surplus—or have more of a say in Washington, for that matter—it will be as a result of a social evolution that matches the production technologies of today. That's a much, much harder process to think about and talk about than a call for the return of the glory days of labour. It's certainly not the sort of thing that lends itself to deployment in the binary dialogue of a presidential campaign. The truth is that Bain didn't really do anything wrong by outsourcing. It could have not done it, but that would primarily have created a profit opportunity for someone else. It may say something about Mitt Romney that he was the man who opted to take the profits. But the nature and distribution of economic activity is about the interaction between technology and institutions, and not about whether an individual capitalist tries to be fair or not. It's not Mitt Romney's fault that the median worker hasn't gotten a real pay increase in over 30 years. And Mr Romney's Bain experience might cost him the election, but that's not going to bring real pay increases back, either.
Here's what another article from The Economist says:
Does inequality really need to be tackled? The twin forces of globalisation and technical innovation have actually narrowed inequality globally, as poorer countries catch up with richer ones. But within many countries income gaps have widened. More than two-thirds of the world’s people live in countries where income disparities have risen since 1980, often to a startling degree. In America the share of national income going to the top 0.01% (some 16,000 families) has risen from just over 1% in 1980 to almost 5% now—an even bigger slice than the top 0.01% got in the Gilded Age.
It is also true that some measure of inequality is good for an economy. It sharpens incentives to work hard and take risks; it rewards the talented innovators who drive economic progress. Free-traders have always accepted that the more global a market, the greater the rewards will be for the winners. But as our special report this week argues, inequality has reached a stage where it can be inefficient and bad for growth.
The article you linked basically argues that globalization isn't a cause of inequality by quoting Krugman this year and comparing it to a Krugman quote from 1997. However, Krugman has changed his views since 1997.
Basically he says that 17 years ago he was arguing that trade with poor countries wasn't a major cause of inequality because there wasn't that much of it back then, but this is no longer true. He further explains, that the solution isn't protectionist policies because globalization is good for poor countries (which is part of what he argued in that 1997 article).
Thanks a lot for the video, it was very interesting to watch.
the best part, conserning the "grow of inequality":
First, I think the process of globalisation, which has moved billions of people out of dire poverty, is worth defending loudly and proudly, even if it came along with a costly side order of dysfunctional American politics and policymaking. We have a moral responsibility to be very clear about what aspects of globalisation we think should change and why, because the cost of encouraging a broader backlash against the process of liberalisation, with all the great good it generates, is simply too high.
And second, it seems to me that an effort to restore the bargaining power of labour by having a showdown over outsourcing or by trying to reinvigorate the labour movement is destined for failure. The rise in worker bargaining power that occurred in the first half of the last century was a product of social movements, but those movements were enabled by the production technologies of the time, and it is the dissolution of those production technologies that has been most responsible for the weakening of labour's position. As Mr Krugman understands very well (his work on the topic helped earn him a Nobel Prize) the transportation technologies of the industrial revolution dictated in favour of large, industrial agglomerations. Geographic concentration enabled worker solidarity, and the benefits of the agglomeration meant that employers couldn't credibly threaten to move elsewhere. But the days of the large, urban industrial agglomeration are gone.
If labour is to capture more of the producer surplus—or have more of a say in Washington, for that matter—it will be as a result of a social evolution that matches the production technologies of today. That's a much, much harder process to think about and talk about than a call for the return of the glory days of labour. It's certainly not the sort of thing that lends itself to deployment in the binary dialogue of a presidential campaign. The truth is that Bain didn't really do anything wrong by outsourcing. It could have not done it, but that would primarily have created a profit opportunity for someone else. It may say something about Mitt Romney that he was the man who opted to take the profits. But the nature and distribution of economic activity is about the interaction between technology and institutions, and not about whether an individual capitalist tries to be fair or not. It's not Mitt Romney's fault that the median worker hasn't gotten a real pay increase in over 30 years. And Mr Romney's Bain experience might cost him the election, but that's not going to bring real pay increases back, either.
Here's what another article from The Economist says:
Does inequality really need to be tackled? The twin forces of globalisation and technical innovation have actually narrowed inequality globally, as poorer countries catch up with richer ones. But within many countries income gaps have widened. More than two-thirds of the world’s people live in countries where income disparities have risen since 1980, often to a startling degree. In America the share of national income going to the top 0.01% (some 16,000 families) has risen from just over 1% in 1980 to almost 5% now—an even bigger slice than the top 0.01% got in the Gilded Age.
It is also true that some measure of inequality is good for an economy. It sharpens incentives to work hard and take risks; it rewards the talented innovators who drive economic progress. Free-traders have always accepted that the more global a market, the greater the rewards will be for the winners. But as our special report this week argues, inequality has reached a stage where it can be inefficient and bad for growth.
The article you linked basically argues that globalization isn't a cause of inequality by quoting Krugman this year and comparing it to a Krugman quote from 1997. However, Krugman has changed his views since 1997.
Basically he says that 17 years ago he was arguing that trade with poor countries wasn't a major cause of inequality because there wasn't that much of it back then, but this is no longer true. He further explains, that the solution isn't protectionist policies because globalization is good for poor countries (which is part of what he argued in that 1997 article).
On October 28 2012 21:40 Cutlery wrote: Point is. If you are poor, you'll have better opportunities "making it" in Europe.
Europe!? It kinda puzzles me to see the term "Europe" used so much. Does it refer to EU?! Also still ..there is a great amount of difference between Germany, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and then Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal (not to mention all the east-EU countries).
In Denmark it dosn't even make sense to speak of the "poor". Almost anybody can get like 2000$/month.
Absolute poverty is not really interesting, take into consideration relativ poverty (60% of the median salary) : with 2000 $/month you can be poor if everybody gain 5000 $/month.
Mmm...no. Absolute poverty matters more than relative poverty because what we care about first and foremost is that people can survive and have the potential to take advantage of opportunities for prosperity. Relative poverty is only important for mass psychology and the fact that people get very upset when they find out their neighbors or peers make more money than they do. Politics, in a word.
EDIT: So for the purpose of this thread, you're right. But if you actually care about society, you couldn't be more wrong.
Corruption is a severe drag on growth ofc esp in development econ and I don't take growth for granted. I agree that the aim should be to have growth while also try to have it be broad based.
Obama relies on the advice of economists and an evolving body of knowledge. The severity of this particular recession was underestimated on strength of private debt being underestimated. It is unfair to attribute con job to political maneuvering under mistaken facts.
The drone bombing stuff, call me callous, I don't care that much. It is par for the course as far as killing is concerned.
I dont know if it has been posted yet but I found this video to be quite impressive:
Of course this is a promotion video and not objective facts but I really would like to know how the US-people here think about how the Bush-tax cuts effected the economy.
On October 28 2012 22:19 KwarK wrote: The problem with inequality of opportunity is that it distorts the principles upon which the economy is founded, that free competition will naturally lead towards optimum efficiency. Banks obviously want to hire the best bankers, law firms want to hire the best lawyers and so forth and with free and fair competition for jobs the market will price their skills and, in trying to maximise their output, put the people best suited for a job in that job. But it all goes to shit once externalities distort the market for labour by preventing those most naturally able from getting the qualifications or those with least connections from getting their resumes seen. Inequality of opportunity is simply bad capitalism, capitalism thrives on competition.
While I don't disagree with your logic, I think many equality of opportunity advocates in philosophy would object to this defense of it as being way too narrow. Equality of opportunity is not 'good' because it increases economic productivity, it is an essential good derived from our equal status as humans. Your argumentation sees equality of outcome as instrumentally justified, while most philosophers make it part of the 'value-orientation' of a society, which is ontologically prior to instrumental concerns.
Aljazeera article talking relatively in-depth on voter suppression efforts, primarily by the GOP.
I would argue the premise of that article is incorrect. The recent Wisconsin Governor election is living proof. Huge turnout, huge Republican win (in a Democratic state).
On October 28 2012 22:19 KwarK wrote: The problem with inequality of opportunity is that it distorts the principles upon which the economy is founded, that free competition will naturally lead towards optimum efficiency. Banks obviously want to hire the best bankers, law firms want to hire the best lawyers and so forth and with free and fair competition for jobs the market will price their skills and, in trying to maximise their output, put the people best suited for a job in that job. But it all goes to shit once externalities distort the market for labour by preventing those most naturally able from getting the qualifications or those with least connections from getting their resumes seen. Inequality of opportunity is simply bad capitalism, capitalism thrives on competition.
While I don't disagree with your logic, I think many equality of opportunity advocates in philosophy would object to this defense of it as being way too narrow. Equality of opportunity is not 'good' because it increases economic productivity, it is an essential good derived from our equal status as humans. Your argumentation sees equality of outcome as instrumentally justified, while most philosophers make it part of the 'value-orientation' of a society, which is ontologically prior to instrumental concerns.
Yes, I agree. Material wealth is not the summum bonum and and culture/government/economic system that engages in coercive redirection of all activity toward this goal is bad. The truth is that we are already the richest human beings in human history, and what we should be doing is designing a better, healthier, more stable society with much less utterly pointless hurrying and scurrying after "innovation."
On October 28 2012 04:53 sc2superfan101 wrote: how do you know that they mean racism when they mention people om welfare, food stamps, etc?
and what does the supposed "southern strategy" which had the alleged intent of appealing the segregationists (god I wish people would actually read history) have to do with alleged anti-intellectualism?
The Southern Strategy was not a "supposed" or "alleged" strategy: it has been explained by campaign advisers who utilized it! You can argue that it isn't relevant today (which is an opinion with which I'd disagree), but claiming that it was not originally about appealing to racism isn't even an opinion--it's simply factually incorrect.
i wrote so many words... for so small an argument..
my point, and let this serve as a response to radiatoren also, is that one cannot look at historical sociopolitical shifts as one dimensional events which occur suddenly and in a vacuum, unaffected by those ideas which came before them and made up the ideological world they lived in. whether there was some specific (by specific I mean localized, not general) occurrences of pandering to racist/segregationist elements by specific Republicans or Republican campaigners is not what I am challenging. rather, I challenging two assertions made by the reference to the "southern strategy" as a possible explanation for the alleged anti-intellectualism in the Republican party, allegedly driven by the more conservative elements.
the first assertion (which is implied) is that the Southern Strategy was, and remains, a driving force of intellectual development within the party and movement (Republican and conservative). the second assertion, more explicit in nature, was that there is an anti-intellectualism that composes enough of a part of the conservative/Republican ideology that it could be considered as an accurate, general label.
for the first assertion, I can point to the fact that segregation itself was fought by as many conservative Republicans as progressive ones. in fact, it was not the progressives who drove abolition and later anti-segregation; they simply attached themselves to the Republicans in the late 1800s, early 1900s due to Republican support of an inclusive society. the progressives were primarily redistributive, their support for an inclusive society was largely coincidental. it was not that they supported anti-segregation for the sake of anti-segregation as much as it was a rather practical way to gain votes and grow the tax-paying base at the same time. this is not to say that there were no legitimately anti-segregationist progressives, just that in general, redistribution took precedence over any kind of racial equality.
I could spend hours going through the nuances of Republicanism in the 1900s, but let's skip that and accept the History channel's somewhat simplistic explanations (which completely neglect the 1920s and 30s), so that we can examine the "Southern Strategy's" effect on today's Republicans as an anti-intellectual force. i would assert that both arguments are wrong, 1) that the southern strategy has any consequential effect whatsoever on modern conservative-Republican ideology, and 2) that the southern strategy was, itself, either racist or anti-intellectual. One must ask oneself why the very people who supported desegregation rather vehemently would then turn around without warning and court the segregationists? why would Goldwater and Nixon, both noted anti-racists and anti-segregationists in the 50s and 60s, suddenly in the mid-60s become racist, segregationists? it makes no sense because it didn't happen that way.
the "southern strategy" was as much about anti-Communism as it was about anti-redistribution. further, segregation at that point had become centered around the issue (among other issues) of the federally enforced desegregation of public and private society. many of the people who found themselves on the side of the segregationists on the issue of forced busing, for example, were not racists at all, and in fact some were members of the NAACP and had participated in anti-segregation movements in the 50s and 60s. some of them were even blacks themselves, who opposed busing on the grounds that it was both ineffective and was a federal overreach. their opposition for federally enforced desegregation and affirmative-action were entirely intellectual. it was these people, who were also largely anti-Communist, that the Republicans sought to court. the Democrats (among others) painted it as anti-segregation and as betrayal, and were actually very successful in the propagation of that image.
as for the Southern Strategy being a force on today's policies and ideologies, I would argue that it was in no way a new or radical thing, what the partakers of the so-called "Southern Strategy" were suggesting and arguing for. they argued for anti-Communism, anti-federal expansion, and for the strict maintenance of law and order. these ideas, whether inherently racist or not, were not new and were not receiving some kind of special attention. the writings of William F. Buckley Jr. were by far more influential to the ideological modern conservative than the opinions of some Nixon campaign adviser.
obviously this explanation above is incomplete, as I've completely neglected mentioning the Roosevelt's, the Rockefeller's, Coolidge, the Great Depression, WW2, WW1, Woodrow Wilson, Bull Conner, George Wallace, and have given only the tiniest of nods to Buckley and the National Review. but I think it should suffice to at least show that claiming the "Southern Strategy" was either explicitly and generally racist, or that it was based in anti-intellectualism, is false. as for it being relevant to today's ideology, I would say that the claim is so wild and unsupported as to require significant evidence to even be uttered. one might as well claim the sky as being red and then declare that the onus is on me to prove otherwise.
now, onto the idea that the Republicans are generally anti-intellectual at all. this comes from 1) the rejection of the conservatives of progressivism and redistribution and, 2) the conservative opposition to the perceived progressive take-over of academia. I would argue that the conservative argument against progressivism is very rational and is based on the writings and opinions of very educated men and women who were anything but anti-intellectual. as for whether the conservative perception of academia is correct or well-founded, well, that is not an argument I am prepared to have. it would require hours of research on my part, and would likely have a less-than desirable result. one might argue that conservative ideology is irrelevant to today, or is unworthy of being given attention by our educators, and this is an opinion that cannot be effectively argued by the conservative. what is clear, however, is that the modern conservative ideology is not given nearly the attention by educators as the modern liberal ideology is. the student or scholar is undeniably more likely to hear the arguments against McCarthyism, than the arguments for it's necessity and desirability. whether this is appropriate or not is up to you, but don't accuse those who feel that it is inappropriate to exclude one side of the argument from our teaching about the argument of being anti-intellectual.
as for us deciding which words are "codewords" or not, I will simply leave you with the suggestion that if one assumes a priori that certain phrases or words contain implicit racism than one has effectively engaged in the fallacy of poisoning the well. which could be construed as being anti-intellectual. just sayin'.
(I realize this is short on sources, but most of this is... well, some of it is common knowledge. as for the rest, either take my word for it or prove how not anti-intellectual you are and find some sources that prove me wrong.)
It frankly really concerns me that you could be familiar this familiar with history (as with your previous post about the post-Civil Rights political realignment) and somehow still deny the central role racism has played in American politics.
I mean, Lee Atwater himself said it: "You start out in 1954 by saying, 'Nigger, nigger, nigger.' By 1968 you can't say 'nigger' — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, 'We want to cut this,' is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than 'Nigger, nigger.'"
I mean, really, you're going to argue that it was just anti-Communism?
No racism here, no siree bob! Just good honest people voting for politicians who don't want to get "outniggered again" (yes yes before you go into a tirade about that I'm well aware of Wallace's background, but even if you assume he was never racist, clearly he was appealing to racist voters).
Aljazeera article talking relatively in-depth on voter suppression efforts, primarily by the GOP.
I would argue the premise of that article is incorrect. The recent Wisconsin Governor election is living proof. Huge turnout, huge Republican win (in a Democratic state).
Wisconsin is and always has been an outlier insofar as state political dynamics are concerned, going all the way back to the first utterance of "the Wisconsin Idea" in 1904. The mere fact that Wisconsin produced the likes of Russ Feingold, Joe McCarthy, and Paul Ryan is enough to suggest that the state is truly a unique "laboratory for democracy". Also a Wisconsin idea
On October 28 2012 08:25 sc2superfan101 wrote: I'm voting for Romney because with Obama my taxes, healthcare bills, and electricity bills have gone up and will go up come January due to his partisanship and mishandling. also, gas prices have skyrocketed and his foreign policy is... ugh.
also, Romney was a very successful businessman, and he's running on a really good platform, so I think he'll work out really well. especially after 4 years of Obama, 4 years of Romney/Ryan will be like a dream come true.
Most Americans saw their federal taxes decrease over the past four years, mostly in payroll tax cuts. Either you're making $250,000 a year, which I doubt if you actually are complaining about your electricity bill, or you're confused about the matter. Maybe your state taxes increased, over which Obama has no control.
Obama cut taxes. No one has paid a higher percentage in federal taxes under the Obama administration. But you guys sure are good at lying about it, non-stop, shamelessly.
Opinions differ on the economic effect of the $20-a-week tax cut. Obama and his team believed the best way to boost the economy was to award the tax cuts piecemeal. Employees are less likely to squirrel away $20 a week in the bank, instead pumping it straight back into the economy by spending it. On the other hand, if they get $1,000 in a single check, the theory goes, they are more likely to stash the money in a savings account or use it to pay off debt — where its benefit to the economy is slow-acting.
Though in theory the trickle-out method is better for the economy in the short term, it certainly has not been as beneficial to the president’s reelection prospects. Neal compared the reductions to the cuts of 2001 and 2003, which President George W. Bush doled out to Americans in lump-sum payments. Studies have shown that taxpayers spent about a third of those payments, another third wound up in savings, and another third was used to pay off debt.
This is talking about a cigarette tax. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains tax.
Talk about desperate.
And you're admitting now that you smoke cigarettes correct? Because you said your taxes went up because of Obama.
I do smoke cigarettes. and you must have missed the penalty attached to the mandate. \
when did I say income tax?
Lol at this. Tax increase for cigarettes and tanning beds.
For the 10,000th time this thread, a new low is reached.
is the word Obamacare like... stricken from your eyes or something? it's like all the liberals in this thread just forgot about it all the sudden, I thought you guys liked it?
There are no raised taxes from ACA for two more years. You will only be taxed if you don't have health insurance. If you are poor, you will not be taxed or your health care will be subsidized on a sliding scale.
that's hedging. the only way Obama can get away with that one is by playing on words. and let me ask you something, if Obama back in 2008 had promised that he would let the largest tax-hike in history go through (letting the G-Dub tax cuts expire) after his first term is up, and would also raise other taxes, after his first term. do you really think people would have elected him? if instead of saying:
"No (middle-class family) will see any form of tax increase" (emphasis my own)
he had said:
"No family will see any form of what I would call a tax increase during my first term, because I'm going to make it so none of the tax increases kick in till after the election!"
would we have elected him? (I say no fucking way because even a two-year old knows hedging when they see it)