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Northern Ireland23765 Posts
On October 28 2012 08:45 Picklebread wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 08:25 sc2superfan101 wrote: I'm voting for Romney because with Obama my taxes, healthcare bills, and electricity bills have gone up and will go up come January due to his partisanship and mishandling. also, gas prices have skyrocketed and his foreign policy is... ugh.
also, Romney was a very successful businessman, and he's running on a really good platform, so I think he'll work out really well. especially after 4 years of Obama, 4 years of Romney/Ryan will be like a dream come true. Even if thats all true, i cant vote for him simply because he flip flops on issues frequently, and the whole woman / gay equality. The problem with Romney is, for me anyway that you really do not know what he stands for, what are his beliefs, what is political expediency or anything really. Romney the candidate is completely different on many issues from Romney the Governor, to a degree that it would be laughable if it wasn't such an influential position.
For example, I don't really have a visceral dislike of the Conservatives in the UK. The Tories are the Tories, they have their policies and though I disagree with many of them, their election is not based on the same false pretenses that a Romney ascenion would symbolise, to me anyway. Obama to be fair is guilty of some of the same things, but it's more that he hasn't gotten things done, which rightly or wrongly is often attributed to Republican obstructionism as opposed to his lack of trying. With the economy here not doing so great, it's the Liberal Democrats that have taken most of the flak out of the two coalition parties. While I don't know for sure, instinctively I would imagine that it is because they are seen to be compromising on many of their key election pledges, and thus have lost what degree of trust they previously had. A good example being tuition fees, but there are many other instances of flip-flopping and it is that which they are getting hammered for
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On October 28 2012 08:49 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 08:41 Leporello wrote:On October 28 2012 08:25 sc2superfan101 wrote: I'm voting for Romney because with Obama my taxes, healthcare bills, and electricity bills have gone up and will go up come January due to his partisanship and mishandling. also, gas prices have skyrocketed and his foreign policy is... ugh.
also, Romney was a very successful businessman, and he's running on a really good platform, so I think he'll work out really well. especially after 4 years of Obama, 4 years of Romney/Ryan will be like a dream come true. Most Americans saw their federal taxes decrease over the past four years, mostly in payroll tax cuts. Either you're making $250,000 a year, which I doubt if you actually are complaining about your electricity bill, or you're confused about the matter. Maybe your state taxes increased, over which Obama has no control. Obama cut taxes. No one has paid a higher percentage in federal taxes under the Obama administration. But you guys sure are good at lying about it, non-stop, shamelessly. http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2012/10/07/president-obama-won-significant-tax-cuts-during-his-first-term-but-voters-mostly-unaware-benefits/psf33Vy87XC9OgRX1oj8JN/story.htmlOpinions differ on the economic effect of the $20-a-week tax cut. Obama and his team believed the best way to boost the economy was to award the tax cuts piecemeal. Employees are less likely to squirrel away $20 a week in the bank, instead pumping it straight back into the economy by spending it. On the other hand, if they get $1,000 in a single check, the theory goes, they are more likely to stash the money in a savings account or use it to pay off debt — where its benefit to the economy is slow-acting.
Though in theory the trickle-out method is better for the economy in the short term, it certainly has not been as beneficial to the president’s reelection prospects. Neal compared the reductions to the cuts of 2001 and 2003, which President George W. Bush doled out to Americans in lump-sum payments. Studies have shown that taxpayers spent about a third of those payments, another third wound up in savings, and another third was used to pay off debt. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/515/no-family-making-less-250000-will-see-any-form-tax/
Did you read what you linked to me?
This is talking about a cigarette tax. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains tax.
Talk about desperate.
And you're admitting now that you smoke cigarettes correct? Because you said your taxes went up because of Obama.
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Northern Ireland23765 Posts
On October 28 2012 08:50 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 08:39 zeru wrote:On October 28 2012 08:35 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Laughed at and ridiculed for what? I don't think the rest of the world knows America well enough to have a reasonable idea as to what policies are best. To make it short: The astounding amount of lies, the failure he calls budget plan, his incredible flip flopping skills. Sounds like Obama or a typical European politician. I guess Berlusconi is an honest guy in your book? And that Papandreou did a great job with Greece's budget? That is a ridiculous retort. Why do you presuppose that because we're European that we're somehow big fans of Berlusconi, or feel that Greece has been well-governed instead of responding to the actual point that's being made?
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On October 28 2012 08:52 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 08:49 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 28 2012 08:41 Leporello wrote:On October 28 2012 08:25 sc2superfan101 wrote: I'm voting for Romney because with Obama my taxes, healthcare bills, and electricity bills have gone up and will go up come January due to his partisanship and mishandling. also, gas prices have skyrocketed and his foreign policy is... ugh.
also, Romney was a very successful businessman, and he's running on a really good platform, so I think he'll work out really well. especially after 4 years of Obama, 4 years of Romney/Ryan will be like a dream come true. Most Americans saw their federal taxes decrease over the past four years, mostly in payroll tax cuts. Either you're making $250,000 a year, which I doubt if you actually are complaining about your electricity bill, or you're confused about the matter. Maybe your state taxes increased, over which Obama has no control. Obama cut taxes. No one has paid a higher percentage in federal taxes under the Obama administration. But you guys sure are good at lying about it, non-stop, shamelessly. http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2012/10/07/president-obama-won-significant-tax-cuts-during-his-first-term-but-voters-mostly-unaware-benefits/psf33Vy87XC9OgRX1oj8JN/story.htmlOpinions differ on the economic effect of the $20-a-week tax cut. Obama and his team believed the best way to boost the economy was to award the tax cuts piecemeal. Employees are less likely to squirrel away $20 a week in the bank, instead pumping it straight back into the economy by spending it. On the other hand, if they get $1,000 in a single check, the theory goes, they are more likely to stash the money in a savings account or use it to pay off debt — where its benefit to the economy is slow-acting.
Though in theory the trickle-out method is better for the economy in the short term, it certainly has not been as beneficial to the president’s reelection prospects. Neal compared the reductions to the cuts of 2001 and 2003, which President George W. Bush doled out to Americans in lump-sum payments. Studies have shown that taxpayers spent about a third of those payments, another third wound up in savings, and another third was used to pay off debt. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/515/no-family-making-less-250000-will-see-any-form-tax/ Did you read what you linked to me? This is talking about a cigarette tax. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains tax. Talk about desperate. And you're admitting now that you smoke cigarettes correct? Because you said your taxes went up because of Obama. I do smoke cigarettes. and you must have missed the penalty attached to the mandate. \
when did I say income tax?
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On October 28 2012 08:41 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 08:25 sc2superfan101 wrote: I'm voting for Romney because with Obama my taxes, healthcare bills, and electricity bills have gone up and will go up come January due to his partisanship and mishandling. also, gas prices have skyrocketed and his foreign policy is... ugh.
also, Romney was a very successful businessman, and he's running on a really good platform, so I think he'll work out really well. especially after 4 years of Obama, 4 years of Romney/Ryan will be like a dream come true. Most Americans saw their federal taxes decrease over the past four years, mostly in payroll tax cuts. Either you're making $250,000 a year, which I doubt if you actually are complaining about your electricity bill, or you're confused about the matter. Maybe your state taxes increased, over which Obama has no control. Obama cut taxes. No one has paid a higher percentage in federal taxes under the Obama administration. But you guys sure are good at lying about it, non-stop, shamelessly. http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2012/10/07/president-obama-won-significant-tax-cuts-during-his-first-term-but-voters-mostly-unaware-benefits/psf33Vy87XC9OgRX1oj8JN/story.htmlShow nested quote +Opinions differ on the economic effect of the $20-a-week tax cut. Obama and his team believed the best way to boost the economy was to award the tax cuts piecemeal. Employees are less likely to squirrel away $20 a week in the bank, instead pumping it straight back into the economy by spending it. On the other hand, if they get $1,000 in a single check, the theory goes, they are more likely to stash the money in a savings account or use it to pay off debt — where its benefit to the economy is slow-acting.
Though in theory the trickle-out method is better for the economy in the short term, it certainly has not been as beneficial to the president’s reelection prospects. Neal compared the reductions to the cuts of 2001 and 2003, which President George W. Bush doled out to Americans in lump-sum payments. Studies have shown that taxpayers spent about a third of those payments, another third wound up in savings, and another third was used to pay off debt. Most Obamacare taxes haven't kicked in yet. As far as I know you are right that taxes were lower during his first term.
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On October 28 2012 08:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 08:52 Leporello wrote:On October 28 2012 08:49 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 28 2012 08:41 Leporello wrote:On October 28 2012 08:25 sc2superfan101 wrote: I'm voting for Romney because with Obama my taxes, healthcare bills, and electricity bills have gone up and will go up come January due to his partisanship and mishandling. also, gas prices have skyrocketed and his foreign policy is... ugh.
also, Romney was a very successful businessman, and he's running on a really good platform, so I think he'll work out really well. especially after 4 years of Obama, 4 years of Romney/Ryan will be like a dream come true. Most Americans saw their federal taxes decrease over the past four years, mostly in payroll tax cuts. Either you're making $250,000 a year, which I doubt if you actually are complaining about your electricity bill, or you're confused about the matter. Maybe your state taxes increased, over which Obama has no control. Obama cut taxes. No one has paid a higher percentage in federal taxes under the Obama administration. But you guys sure are good at lying about it, non-stop, shamelessly. http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2012/10/07/president-obama-won-significant-tax-cuts-during-his-first-term-but-voters-mostly-unaware-benefits/psf33Vy87XC9OgRX1oj8JN/story.htmlOpinions differ on the economic effect of the $20-a-week tax cut. Obama and his team believed the best way to boost the economy was to award the tax cuts piecemeal. Employees are less likely to squirrel away $20 a week in the bank, instead pumping it straight back into the economy by spending it. On the other hand, if they get $1,000 in a single check, the theory goes, they are more likely to stash the money in a savings account or use it to pay off debt — where its benefit to the economy is slow-acting.
Though in theory the trickle-out method is better for the economy in the short term, it certainly has not been as beneficial to the president’s reelection prospects. Neal compared the reductions to the cuts of 2001 and 2003, which President George W. Bush doled out to Americans in lump-sum payments. Studies have shown that taxpayers spent about a third of those payments, another third wound up in savings, and another third was used to pay off debt. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/515/no-family-making-less-250000-will-see-any-form-tax/ Did you read what you linked to me? This is talking about a cigarette tax. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains tax. Talk about desperate. And you're admitting now that you smoke cigarettes correct? Because you said your taxes went up because of Obama. I do smoke cigarettes. and you must have missed the penalty attached to the mandate. \ when did I say income tax?
So your taxes went up under Obama because you consciously chose to buy cigarettes.
You're complaining about a voluntary tax. Your taxes didn't increase. You chose to increase them.
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On October 28 2012 08:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 08:52 Leporello wrote:On October 28 2012 08:49 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 28 2012 08:41 Leporello wrote:On October 28 2012 08:25 sc2superfan101 wrote: I'm voting for Romney because with Obama my taxes, healthcare bills, and electricity bills have gone up and will go up come January due to his partisanship and mishandling. also, gas prices have skyrocketed and his foreign policy is... ugh.
also, Romney was a very successful businessman, and he's running on a really good platform, so I think he'll work out really well. especially after 4 years of Obama, 4 years of Romney/Ryan will be like a dream come true. Most Americans saw their federal taxes decrease over the past four years, mostly in payroll tax cuts. Either you're making $250,000 a year, which I doubt if you actually are complaining about your electricity bill, or you're confused about the matter. Maybe your state taxes increased, over which Obama has no control. Obama cut taxes. No one has paid a higher percentage in federal taxes under the Obama administration. But you guys sure are good at lying about it, non-stop, shamelessly. http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2012/10/07/president-obama-won-significant-tax-cuts-during-his-first-term-but-voters-mostly-unaware-benefits/psf33Vy87XC9OgRX1oj8JN/story.htmlOpinions differ on the economic effect of the $20-a-week tax cut. Obama and his team believed the best way to boost the economy was to award the tax cuts piecemeal. Employees are less likely to squirrel away $20 a week in the bank, instead pumping it straight back into the economy by spending it. On the other hand, if they get $1,000 in a single check, the theory goes, they are more likely to stash the money in a savings account or use it to pay off debt — where its benefit to the economy is slow-acting.
Though in theory the trickle-out method is better for the economy in the short term, it certainly has not been as beneficial to the president’s reelection prospects. Neal compared the reductions to the cuts of 2001 and 2003, which President George W. Bush doled out to Americans in lump-sum payments. Studies have shown that taxpayers spent about a third of those payments, another third wound up in savings, and another third was used to pay off debt. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/515/no-family-making-less-250000-will-see-any-form-tax/ Did you read what you linked to me? This is talking about a cigarette tax. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains tax. Talk about desperate. And you're admitting now that you smoke cigarettes correct? Because you said your taxes went up because of Obama. I do smoke cigarettes. and you must have missed the penalty attached to the mandate. \ when did I say income tax?
Lol at this. Tax increase for cigarettes and tanning beds.
For the 10,000th time this thread, a new low is reached.
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On October 28 2012 08:52 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 08:50 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On October 28 2012 08:39 zeru wrote:On October 28 2012 08:35 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Laughed at and ridiculed for what? I don't think the rest of the world knows America well enough to have a reasonable idea as to what policies are best. To make it short: The astounding amount of lies, the failure he calls budget plan, his incredible flip flopping skills. Sounds like Obama or a typical European politician. I guess Berlusconi is an honest guy in your book? And that Papandreou did a great job with Greece's budget? That is a ridiculous retort. Why do you presuppose that because we're European that we're somehow big fans of Berlusconi, or feel that Greece has been well-governed instead of responding to the actual point that's being made? Because he isn't making a point. How would you like me to respond to generalizations? No, he's not a liar, no his budget plan isn't broken, no he's not a big flip flopper.
Wow, what a great discussion we are having...
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On October 28 2012 08:42 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 08:36 DoubleReed wrote:On October 28 2012 07:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On October 28 2012 07:35 DoubleReed wrote: I'm frankly pretty shocked that people still want to vote for Romney. I understand that people don't like Obama. But I'm just not understanding why anyone would vote for someone who is so obviously bought and paid for like Romney is.
Yes, I understand that Obama is too, but jesus he is not at all so brazen about it. I mean Romney basically came back from talking to Oil Companies and said he now has an energy policy. His main economic plan that he's revealed is flat tax cuts which benefit the rich extraordinarily. Romney has come out for Corporate Personhood. At least Obama has the decency to have rhetoric against it. The flip-flopping on all social policies is yet another reason to think that Romney does whatever money tells him. I mean do you honestly think Romney will make responsible policies for banks and wall street?
So Romney-voters, I have to ask: what exactly does a guy have to do to make himself too corrupt to vote for? I really want to know. What would Romney have to do in order to lose your vote? Be more corrupt than Obama. Honestly, I don't know how else to respond to random partisan blathering. Partisan blathering? Don't do that. Don't shut down the conversation like that. That's not a serious answer, and I have no idea what that means. Where are you disagreeing? Do you honestly think Obama is more corrupt than Romney? Do you think Romney will do more to try to rid corruption out of Washington than Obama? And I'm asking a serious question. What would a politician have to do to lose your vote simply because you were convinced they were completely bought off? If you have evidence of corruption, show the evidence. Otherwise you are connecting whatever dots exist in your head and I have no idea what you are talking about.
Oh really? You just don't think he's corrupt. All right, well I guess I'll start with the oil/energy policy thing. I'm just doing quick google searches here...
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/24/us/romney-would-give-reins-to-states-on-drilling-on-federal-lands.html?_r=2&hp
"An individual close to the Romney campaign said that Mr. Romney’s staff drafted the proposal in consultation with industry executives, including Harold Hamm, an Oklahoma billionaire who is the chairman of the campaign’s energy advisory committee and chief executive of Continental Resources, an oil and gas driller."
The tax plan. Well, that he's been touting forever. 20% flat decrease. That favors the wealthy by definition.
Corporate Personhood: http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/mitt-romney-doubles-down-corporate-pe
Obama's at least said that he favors an amendment against Citizen's United: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._Federal_Election_Commission
Flip-flopping... do I really need to go into it?
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The Obamacare mandate-penalty hasn't applied to anyone yet, but, yes, that will be another tax, provided you're someone who decides to no buy health-insurance.
Most families have health insurance, so it won't apply to them. Those that don't have health insurance will be rather coerced into buying discounted insurance, or pay a penalty. That is a new tax -- but it's something that hasn't even happened yet.
But going back to my original point, saying Obama raised your taxes because your cigarettes cost more money is... I don't know, hyperbolic at best.
Vast majority of Americans paid less federal tax under Obama than they did under Bush.
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On October 28 2012 08:55 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 08:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 28 2012 08:52 Leporello wrote:On October 28 2012 08:49 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 28 2012 08:41 Leporello wrote:On October 28 2012 08:25 sc2superfan101 wrote: I'm voting for Romney because with Obama my taxes, healthcare bills, and electricity bills have gone up and will go up come January due to his partisanship and mishandling. also, gas prices have skyrocketed and his foreign policy is... ugh.
also, Romney was a very successful businessman, and he's running on a really good platform, so I think he'll work out really well. especially after 4 years of Obama, 4 years of Romney/Ryan will be like a dream come true. Most Americans saw their federal taxes decrease over the past four years, mostly in payroll tax cuts. Either you're making $250,000 a year, which I doubt if you actually are complaining about your electricity bill, or you're confused about the matter. Maybe your state taxes increased, over which Obama has no control. Obama cut taxes. No one has paid a higher percentage in federal taxes under the Obama administration. But you guys sure are good at lying about it, non-stop, shamelessly. http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2012/10/07/president-obama-won-significant-tax-cuts-during-his-first-term-but-voters-mostly-unaware-benefits/psf33Vy87XC9OgRX1oj8JN/story.htmlOpinions differ on the economic effect of the $20-a-week tax cut. Obama and his team believed the best way to boost the economy was to award the tax cuts piecemeal. Employees are less likely to squirrel away $20 a week in the bank, instead pumping it straight back into the economy by spending it. On the other hand, if they get $1,000 in a single check, the theory goes, they are more likely to stash the money in a savings account or use it to pay off debt — where its benefit to the economy is slow-acting.
Though in theory the trickle-out method is better for the economy in the short term, it certainly has not been as beneficial to the president’s reelection prospects. Neal compared the reductions to the cuts of 2001 and 2003, which President George W. Bush doled out to Americans in lump-sum payments. Studies have shown that taxpayers spent about a third of those payments, another third wound up in savings, and another third was used to pay off debt. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/515/no-family-making-less-250000-will-see-any-form-tax/ Did you read what you linked to me? This is talking about a cigarette tax. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains tax. Talk about desperate. And you're admitting now that you smoke cigarettes correct? Because you said your taxes went up because of Obama. I do smoke cigarettes. and you must have missed the penalty attached to the mandate. \ when did I say income tax? So your taxes went up under Obama because you consciously chose to buy cigarettes. You're complaining about a voluntary tax. Your taxes didn't increase. You chose to increase them. I didn't choose to raise the taxes, nor did I vote for them. but I did vote, so I guess the "No Taxation without Representation" mantra is out the window. bummer, I always thought it had a nice ring to it.
you also forgot the Obamacare taxes again. while I'm not paying them yet, by being passed into law, I can say that my taxes have, technically, gone up. also, I think it would be pretty dishonest of Obama to run on the "Well, I said I wouldn't raise taxes during my first term." argument. In fact, that wouldn't even be an argument. it would be hedging.
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On October 28 2012 08:55 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 08:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 28 2012 08:52 Leporello wrote:On October 28 2012 08:49 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 28 2012 08:41 Leporello wrote:On October 28 2012 08:25 sc2superfan101 wrote: I'm voting for Romney because with Obama my taxes, healthcare bills, and electricity bills have gone up and will go up come January due to his partisanship and mishandling. also, gas prices have skyrocketed and his foreign policy is... ugh.
also, Romney was a very successful businessman, and he's running on a really good platform, so I think he'll work out really well. especially after 4 years of Obama, 4 years of Romney/Ryan will be like a dream come true. Most Americans saw their federal taxes decrease over the past four years, mostly in payroll tax cuts. Either you're making $250,000 a year, which I doubt if you actually are complaining about your electricity bill, or you're confused about the matter. Maybe your state taxes increased, over which Obama has no control. Obama cut taxes. No one has paid a higher percentage in federal taxes under the Obama administration. But you guys sure are good at lying about it, non-stop, shamelessly. http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2012/10/07/president-obama-won-significant-tax-cuts-during-his-first-term-but-voters-mostly-unaware-benefits/psf33Vy87XC9OgRX1oj8JN/story.htmlOpinions differ on the economic effect of the $20-a-week tax cut. Obama and his team believed the best way to boost the economy was to award the tax cuts piecemeal. Employees are less likely to squirrel away $20 a week in the bank, instead pumping it straight back into the economy by spending it. On the other hand, if they get $1,000 in a single check, the theory goes, they are more likely to stash the money in a savings account or use it to pay off debt — where its benefit to the economy is slow-acting.
Though in theory the trickle-out method is better for the economy in the short term, it certainly has not been as beneficial to the president’s reelection prospects. Neal compared the reductions to the cuts of 2001 and 2003, which President George W. Bush doled out to Americans in lump-sum payments. Studies have shown that taxpayers spent about a third of those payments, another third wound up in savings, and another third was used to pay off debt. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/515/no-family-making-less-250000-will-see-any-form-tax/ Did you read what you linked to me? This is talking about a cigarette tax. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains tax. Talk about desperate. And you're admitting now that you smoke cigarettes correct? Because you said your taxes went up because of Obama. I do smoke cigarettes. and you must have missed the penalty attached to the mandate. \ when did I say income tax? So your taxes went up under Obama because you consciously chose to buy cigarettes. You're complaining about a voluntary tax. Your taxes didn't increase. You chose to increase them. Working is voluntary too, so does that make an income tax voluntary as well?
Taxes going up are taxes going up.
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On October 28 2012 08:57 mynameisgreat11 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 08:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 28 2012 08:52 Leporello wrote:On October 28 2012 08:49 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 28 2012 08:41 Leporello wrote:On October 28 2012 08:25 sc2superfan101 wrote: I'm voting for Romney because with Obama my taxes, healthcare bills, and electricity bills have gone up and will go up come January due to his partisanship and mishandling. also, gas prices have skyrocketed and his foreign policy is... ugh.
also, Romney was a very successful businessman, and he's running on a really good platform, so I think he'll work out really well. especially after 4 years of Obama, 4 years of Romney/Ryan will be like a dream come true. Most Americans saw their federal taxes decrease over the past four years, mostly in payroll tax cuts. Either you're making $250,000 a year, which I doubt if you actually are complaining about your electricity bill, or you're confused about the matter. Maybe your state taxes increased, over which Obama has no control. Obama cut taxes. No one has paid a higher percentage in federal taxes under the Obama administration. But you guys sure are good at lying about it, non-stop, shamelessly. http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2012/10/07/president-obama-won-significant-tax-cuts-during-his-first-term-but-voters-mostly-unaware-benefits/psf33Vy87XC9OgRX1oj8JN/story.htmlOpinions differ on the economic effect of the $20-a-week tax cut. Obama and his team believed the best way to boost the economy was to award the tax cuts piecemeal. Employees are less likely to squirrel away $20 a week in the bank, instead pumping it straight back into the economy by spending it. On the other hand, if they get $1,000 in a single check, the theory goes, they are more likely to stash the money in a savings account or use it to pay off debt — where its benefit to the economy is slow-acting.
Though in theory the trickle-out method is better for the economy in the short term, it certainly has not been as beneficial to the president’s reelection prospects. Neal compared the reductions to the cuts of 2001 and 2003, which President George W. Bush doled out to Americans in lump-sum payments. Studies have shown that taxpayers spent about a third of those payments, another third wound up in savings, and another third was used to pay off debt. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/515/no-family-making-less-250000-will-see-any-form-tax/ Did you read what you linked to me? This is talking about a cigarette tax. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains tax. Talk about desperate. And you're admitting now that you smoke cigarettes correct? Because you said your taxes went up because of Obama. I do smoke cigarettes. and you must have missed the penalty attached to the mandate. \ when did I say income tax? Lol at this. Tax increase for cigarettes and tanning beds. For the 10,000th time this thread, a new low is reached. is the word Obamacare like... stricken from your eyes or something? it's like all the liberals in this thread just forgot about it all the sudden, I thought you guys liked it?
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On October 28 2012 07:09 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 06:17 HunterX11 wrote:On October 28 2012 04:53 sc2superfan101 wrote: how do you know that they mean racism when they mention people om welfare, food stamps, etc?
and what does the supposed "southern strategy" which had the alleged intent of appealing the segregationists (god I wish people would actually read history) have to do with alleged anti-intellectualism? The Southern Strategy was not a "supposed" or "alleged" strategy: it has been explained by campaign advisers who utilized it! You can argue that it isn't relevant today (which is an opinion with which I'd disagree), but claiming that it was not originally about appealing to racism isn't even an opinion--it's simply factually incorrect. i wrote so many words... for so small an argument.. boredom is a killer: + Show Spoiler + my point, and let this serve as a response to radiatoren also, is that one cannot look at historical sociopolitical shifts as one dimensional events which occur suddenly and in a vacuum, unaffected by those ideas which came before them and made up the ideological world they lived in. whether there was some specific (by specific I mean localized, not general) occurrences of pandering to racist/segregationist elements by specific Republicans or Republican campaigners is not what I am challenging. rather, I challenging two assertions made by the reference to the "southern strategy" as a possible explanation for the alleged anti-intellectualism in the Republican party, allegedly driven by the more conservative elements.
the first assertion (which is implied) is that the Southern Strategy was, and remains, a driving force of intellectual development within the party and movement (Republican and conservative). the second assertion, more explicit in nature, was that there is an anti-intellectualism that composes enough of a part of the conservative/Republican ideology that it could be considered as an accurate, general label.
for the first assertion, I can point to the fact that segregation itself was fought by as many conservative Republicans as progressive ones. in fact, it was not the progressives who drove abolition and later anti-segregation; they simply attached themselves to the Republicans in the late 1800s, early 1900s due to Republican support of an inclusive society. the progressives were primarily redistributive, their support for an inclusive society was largely coincidental. it was not that they supported anti-segregation for the sake of anti-segregation as much as it was a rather practical way to gain votes and grow the tax-paying base at the same time. this is not to say that there were no legitimately anti-segregationist progressives, just that in general, redistribution took precedence over any kind of racial equality.
I could spend hours going through the nuances of Republicanism in the 1900s, but let's skip that and accept the History channel's somewhat simplistic explanations (which completely neglect the 1920s and 30s), so that we can examine the "Southern Strategy's" effect on today's Republicans as an anti-intellectual force. i would assert that both arguments are wrong, 1) that the southern strategy has any consequential effect whatsoever on modern conservative-Republican ideology, and 2) that the southern strategy was, itself, either racist or anti-intellectual. One must ask oneself why the very people who supported desegregation rather vehemently would then turn around without warning and court the segregationists? why would Goldwater and Nixon, both noted anti-racists and anti-segregationists in the 50s and 60s, suddenly in the mid-60s become racist, segregationists? it makes no sense because it didn't happen that way.
the "southern strategy" was as much about anti-Communism as it was about anti-redistribution. further, segregation at that point had become centered around the issue (among other issues) of the federally enforced desegregation of public and private society. many of the people who found themselves on the side of the segregationists on the issue of forced busing, for example, were not racists at all, and in fact some were members of the NAACP and had participated in anti-segregation movements in the 50s and 60s. some of them were even blacks themselves, who opposed busing on the grounds that it was both ineffective and was a federal overreach. their opposition for federally enforced desegregation and affirmative-action were entirely intellectual. it was these people, who were also largely anti-Communist, that the Republicans sought to court. the Democrats (among others) painted it as anti-segregation and as betrayal, and were actually very successful in the propagation of that image.
as for the Southern Strategy being a force on today's policies and ideologies, I would argue that it was in no way a new or radical thing, what the partakers of the so-called "Southern Strategy" were suggesting and arguing for. they argued for anti-Communism, anti-federal expansion, and for the strict maintenance of law and order. these ideas, whether inherently racist or not, were not new and were not receiving some kind of special attention. the writings of William F. Buckley Jr. were by far more influential to the ideological modern conservative than the opinions of some Nixon campaign adviser.
obviously this explanation above is incomplete, as I've completely neglected mentioning the Roosevelt's, the Rockefeller's, Coolidge, the Great Depression, WW2, WW1, Woodrow Wilson, Bull Conner, George Wallace, and have given only the tiniest of nods to Buckley and the National Review. but I think it should suffice to at least show that claiming the "Southern Strategy" was either explicitly and generally racist, or that it was based in anti-intellectualism, is false. as for it being relevant to today's ideology, I would say that the claim is so wild and unsupported as to require significant evidence to even be uttered. one might as well claim the sky as being red and then declare that the onus is on me to prove otherwise.
now, onto the idea that the Republicans are generally anti-intellectual at all. this comes from 1) the rejection of the conservatives of progressivism and redistribution and, 2) the conservative opposition to the perceived progressive take-over of academia. I would argue that the conservative argument against progressivism is very rational and is based on the writings and opinions of very educated men and women who were anything but anti-intellectual. as for whether the conservative perception of academia is correct or well-founded, well, that is not an argument I am prepared to have. it would require hours of research on my part, and would likely have a less-than desirable result. one might argue that conservative ideology is irrelevant to today, or is unworthy of being given attention by our educators, and this is an opinion that cannot be effectively argued by the conservative. what is clear, however, is that the modern conservative ideology is not given nearly the attention by educators as the modern liberal ideology is. the student or scholar is undeniably more likely to hear the arguments against McCarthyism, than the arguments for it's necessity and desirability. whether this is appropriate or not is up to you, but don't accuse those who feel that it is inappropriate to exclude one side of the argument from our teaching about the argument of being anti-intellectual.
as for us deciding which words are "codewords" or not, I will simply leave you with the suggestion that if one assumes a priori that certain phrases or words contain implicit racism than one has effectively engaged in the fallacy of poisoning the well. which could be construed as being anti-intellectual. just sayin'.
(I realize this is short on sources, but most of this is... well, some of it is common knowledge. as for the rest, either take my word for it or prove how not anti-intellectual you are and find some sources that prove me wrong.)
+ Show Spoiler + Let me take that from the end to the start: Very good read, but I think it contains a few too few of the relevant facts about the political climate right around the southerm strategy's start and too much pandering on the 1900s political climate, even though it is pretty exciting. As for codeword, I would defer to Lee Atwaters anonymous quote on that one:
You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say "nigger" — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger."
Not even implicitly saying that racism is alive and that certain policies were an abstraction on the same issue. Again I was merely suggesting that it was a way to interpret his comment. Don't take it as said and fact.
As for the conservative arguments against certain academia I have still to hear logical and clear reasoning on that one. I see myself as very conservative in some aspects but I really do not see a lot of the social reasoning. Nobody gets hurt by allowing gay marriage unless we start forcing priests to perform the ritual, nobody is for killing a child in abortion issue, but letting it be up to medical professionals to decide who to save is logical and creationism is fine to have as part of the curriculum as long as it is not used in the wrong kinds of science (religion, social science like contexts is fine) the real problem is if it influeces biology/history teachings and debating it is a non-sequitor. As for other science, climate change is more or less certain with more than text-book support for its existence and for a "significant" antropogenic part. It is a question of sharing the information on it, that is lacking a little. All of those social issues are intellectually almost impossible to defend and the feeling part of it is not what should be counting since the consequeces can be pretty bad.
The idea that there was no racism in it is pretty bold. Again Atwater is explicitly stating that it is more or less getting lost in abstraction in 1981. No population changes stance from one day to the other. It is a gradual response and given how things worked in the 1950's with the democratic senators from the south being pretty overt racist. The change between party opinions seems to be a lot about the voting rights act/civil right act and desegregation and keeping its effect out of the south where some were furious at the democrats for supporting them. Nixon went against these anti-racism measures, probably in an attempt to catch votes. Going against that is not easy to defend. The republicans branded it as leaving matters to the states and "law and order". It is implicit racism by letting the southern states pick and choose what legislation to follow. I do not think there is any denying that the leaving matters to the states was trying to gain some southern votes and given the unsatisfaction with the civil rights movement it is not a stretch by any means to make that connection. Claiming it is false that there is a connection between southern strategy and racism is dishonest at best. It is explicitly trying to pander to a certain segment of the southern population that did not want the civil rights! It was likely mostly a presidential plot to catch votes and not as much republican, but that only makes it more shady.
As for its effect today it is harder to say. Don't really want to go there except say that it is an importaint part of republican history and central to why the southern states are overwhelmingly in support of republicans today.
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On October 28 2012 08:59 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 08:52 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 28 2012 08:50 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On October 28 2012 08:39 zeru wrote:On October 28 2012 08:35 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Laughed at and ridiculed for what? I don't think the rest of the world knows America well enough to have a reasonable idea as to what policies are best. To make it short: The astounding amount of lies, the failure he calls budget plan, his incredible flip flopping skills. Sounds like Obama or a typical European politician. I guess Berlusconi is an honest guy in your book? And that Papandreou did a great job with Greece's budget? That is a ridiculous retort. Why do you presuppose that because we're European that we're somehow big fans of Berlusconi, or feel that Greece has been well-governed instead of responding to the actual point that's being made? Because he isn't making a point. How would you like me to respond to generalizations? No, he's not a liar, no his budget plan isn't broken, no he's not a big flip flopper. Wow, what a great discussion we are having...
You can argue, I would say ridiculously, that Romney is not a liar. Likewise you could argue that his budget plan isn't broken.
But there is zero debate that he is a flip-flopper. It's not a partisan construct. You may argue that his flip-flopping doesn't matter, but reality is pretty clear that he's done a complete 180 on many issues.
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On October 28 2012 09:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 08:55 Leporello wrote:On October 28 2012 08:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 28 2012 08:52 Leporello wrote:On October 28 2012 08:49 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 28 2012 08:41 Leporello wrote:On October 28 2012 08:25 sc2superfan101 wrote: I'm voting for Romney because with Obama my taxes, healthcare bills, and electricity bills have gone up and will go up come January due to his partisanship and mishandling. also, gas prices have skyrocketed and his foreign policy is... ugh.
also, Romney was a very successful businessman, and he's running on a really good platform, so I think he'll work out really well. especially after 4 years of Obama, 4 years of Romney/Ryan will be like a dream come true. Most Americans saw their federal taxes decrease over the past four years, mostly in payroll tax cuts. Either you're making $250,000 a year, which I doubt if you actually are complaining about your electricity bill, or you're confused about the matter. Maybe your state taxes increased, over which Obama has no control. Obama cut taxes. No one has paid a higher percentage in federal taxes under the Obama administration. But you guys sure are good at lying about it, non-stop, shamelessly. http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2012/10/07/president-obama-won-significant-tax-cuts-during-his-first-term-but-voters-mostly-unaware-benefits/psf33Vy87XC9OgRX1oj8JN/story.htmlOpinions differ on the economic effect of the $20-a-week tax cut. Obama and his team believed the best way to boost the economy was to award the tax cuts piecemeal. Employees are less likely to squirrel away $20 a week in the bank, instead pumping it straight back into the economy by spending it. On the other hand, if they get $1,000 in a single check, the theory goes, they are more likely to stash the money in a savings account or use it to pay off debt — where its benefit to the economy is slow-acting.
Though in theory the trickle-out method is better for the economy in the short term, it certainly has not been as beneficial to the president’s reelection prospects. Neal compared the reductions to the cuts of 2001 and 2003, which President George W. Bush doled out to Americans in lump-sum payments. Studies have shown that taxpayers spent about a third of those payments, another third wound up in savings, and another third was used to pay off debt. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/515/no-family-making-less-250000-will-see-any-form-tax/ Did you read what you linked to me? This is talking about a cigarette tax. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains tax. Talk about desperate. And you're admitting now that you smoke cigarettes correct? Because you said your taxes went up because of Obama. I do smoke cigarettes. and you must have missed the penalty attached to the mandate. \ when did I say income tax? So your taxes went up under Obama because you consciously chose to buy cigarettes. You're complaining about a voluntary tax. Your taxes didn't increase. You chose to increase them. Working is voluntary too, so does that make an income tax voluntary as well? Taxes going up are taxes going up.
But Obama cut taxes.
He cut payroll taxes -- that applies to almost everybody.
But you see a cigarette tax and, your words, "Taxes going up are taxes going up." What?
How about "taxes are going down, because taxes actually are going down?"
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On October 28 2012 09:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 08:55 Leporello wrote:On October 28 2012 08:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 28 2012 08:52 Leporello wrote:On October 28 2012 08:49 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 28 2012 08:41 Leporello wrote:On October 28 2012 08:25 sc2superfan101 wrote: I'm voting for Romney because with Obama my taxes, healthcare bills, and electricity bills have gone up and will go up come January due to his partisanship and mishandling. also, gas prices have skyrocketed and his foreign policy is... ugh.
also, Romney was a very successful businessman, and he's running on a really good platform, so I think he'll work out really well. especially after 4 years of Obama, 4 years of Romney/Ryan will be like a dream come true. Most Americans saw their federal taxes decrease over the past four years, mostly in payroll tax cuts. Either you're making $250,000 a year, which I doubt if you actually are complaining about your electricity bill, or you're confused about the matter. Maybe your state taxes increased, over which Obama has no control. Obama cut taxes. No one has paid a higher percentage in federal taxes under the Obama administration. But you guys sure are good at lying about it, non-stop, shamelessly. http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2012/10/07/president-obama-won-significant-tax-cuts-during-his-first-term-but-voters-mostly-unaware-benefits/psf33Vy87XC9OgRX1oj8JN/story.htmlOpinions differ on the economic effect of the $20-a-week tax cut. Obama and his team believed the best way to boost the economy was to award the tax cuts piecemeal. Employees are less likely to squirrel away $20 a week in the bank, instead pumping it straight back into the economy by spending it. On the other hand, if they get $1,000 in a single check, the theory goes, they are more likely to stash the money in a savings account or use it to pay off debt — where its benefit to the economy is slow-acting.
Though in theory the trickle-out method is better for the economy in the short term, it certainly has not been as beneficial to the president’s reelection prospects. Neal compared the reductions to the cuts of 2001 and 2003, which President George W. Bush doled out to Americans in lump-sum payments. Studies have shown that taxpayers spent about a third of those payments, another third wound up in savings, and another third was used to pay off debt. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/515/no-family-making-less-250000-will-see-any-form-tax/ Did you read what you linked to me? This is talking about a cigarette tax. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains tax. Talk about desperate. And you're admitting now that you smoke cigarettes correct? Because you said your taxes went up because of Obama. I do smoke cigarettes. and you must have missed the penalty attached to the mandate. \ when did I say income tax? So your taxes went up under Obama because you consciously chose to buy cigarettes. You're complaining about a voluntary tax. Your taxes didn't increase. You chose to increase them. Working is voluntary too, so does that make an income tax voluntary as well? Taxes going up are taxes going up.
Work is somewhat needed to get an income and achieve a decent standard of living. Cancer sticks are not needed so much to maintain a decent standard of living, infact you could argue they reduce said standard.
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On October 28 2012 09:01 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 08:57 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On October 28 2012 08:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 28 2012 08:52 Leporello wrote:On October 28 2012 08:49 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 28 2012 08:41 Leporello wrote:On October 28 2012 08:25 sc2superfan101 wrote: I'm voting for Romney because with Obama my taxes, healthcare bills, and electricity bills have gone up and will go up come January due to his partisanship and mishandling. also, gas prices have skyrocketed and his foreign policy is... ugh.
also, Romney was a very successful businessman, and he's running on a really good platform, so I think he'll work out really well. especially after 4 years of Obama, 4 years of Romney/Ryan will be like a dream come true. Most Americans saw their federal taxes decrease over the past four years, mostly in payroll tax cuts. Either you're making $250,000 a year, which I doubt if you actually are complaining about your electricity bill, or you're confused about the matter. Maybe your state taxes increased, over which Obama has no control. Obama cut taxes. No one has paid a higher percentage in federal taxes under the Obama administration. But you guys sure are good at lying about it, non-stop, shamelessly. http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2012/10/07/president-obama-won-significant-tax-cuts-during-his-first-term-but-voters-mostly-unaware-benefits/psf33Vy87XC9OgRX1oj8JN/story.htmlOpinions differ on the economic effect of the $20-a-week tax cut. Obama and his team believed the best way to boost the economy was to award the tax cuts piecemeal. Employees are less likely to squirrel away $20 a week in the bank, instead pumping it straight back into the economy by spending it. On the other hand, if they get $1,000 in a single check, the theory goes, they are more likely to stash the money in a savings account or use it to pay off debt — where its benefit to the economy is slow-acting.
Though in theory the trickle-out method is better for the economy in the short term, it certainly has not been as beneficial to the president’s reelection prospects. Neal compared the reductions to the cuts of 2001 and 2003, which President George W. Bush doled out to Americans in lump-sum payments. Studies have shown that taxpayers spent about a third of those payments, another third wound up in savings, and another third was used to pay off debt. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/515/no-family-making-less-250000-will-see-any-form-tax/ Did you read what you linked to me? This is talking about a cigarette tax. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains tax. Talk about desperate. And you're admitting now that you smoke cigarettes correct? Because you said your taxes went up because of Obama. I do smoke cigarettes. and you must have missed the penalty attached to the mandate. \ when did I say income tax? Lol at this. Tax increase for cigarettes and tanning beds. For the 10,000th time this thread, a new low is reached. is the word Obamacare like... stricken from your eyes or something? it's like all the liberals in this thread just forgot about it all the sudden, I thought you guys liked it?
There are no raised taxes from ACA for two more years. You will only be taxed if you don't have health insurance. If you are poor, you will not be taxed or your health care will be subsidized on a sliding scale.
So, you still have no point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act
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On October 28 2012 08:59 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 08:42 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On October 28 2012 08:36 DoubleReed wrote:On October 28 2012 07:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On October 28 2012 07:35 DoubleReed wrote: I'm frankly pretty shocked that people still want to vote for Romney. I understand that people don't like Obama. But I'm just not understanding why anyone would vote for someone who is so obviously bought and paid for like Romney is.
Yes, I understand that Obama is too, but jesus he is not at all so brazen about it. I mean Romney basically came back from talking to Oil Companies and said he now has an energy policy. His main economic plan that he's revealed is flat tax cuts which benefit the rich extraordinarily. Romney has come out for Corporate Personhood. At least Obama has the decency to have rhetoric against it. The flip-flopping on all social policies is yet another reason to think that Romney does whatever money tells him. I mean do you honestly think Romney will make responsible policies for banks and wall street?
So Romney-voters, I have to ask: what exactly does a guy have to do to make himself too corrupt to vote for? I really want to know. What would Romney have to do in order to lose your vote? Be more corrupt than Obama. Honestly, I don't know how else to respond to random partisan blathering. Partisan blathering? Don't do that. Don't shut down the conversation like that. That's not a serious answer, and I have no idea what that means. Where are you disagreeing? Do you honestly think Obama is more corrupt than Romney? Do you think Romney will do more to try to rid corruption out of Washington than Obama? And I'm asking a serious question. What would a politician have to do to lose your vote simply because you were convinced they were completely bought off? If you have evidence of corruption, show the evidence. Otherwise you are connecting whatever dots exist in your head and I have no idea what you are talking about. Oh really? You just don't think he's corrupt. All right, well I guess I'll start with the oil/energy policy thing. I'm just doing quick google searches here... http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/24/us/romney-would-give-reins-to-states-on-drilling-on-federal-lands.html?_r=2&hp"An individual close to the Romney campaign said that Mr. Romney’s staff drafted the proposal in consultation with industry executives, including Harold Hamm, an Oklahoma billionaire who is the chairman of the campaign’s energy advisory committee and chief executive of Continental Resources, an oil and gas driller." The tax plan. Well, that he's been touting forever. 20% flat decrease. That favors the wealthy by definition. Corporate Personhood: http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/mitt-romney-doubles-down-corporate-peObama's at least said that he favors an amendment against Citizen's United: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._Federal_Election_CommissionFlip-flopping... do I really need to go into it? Yeah, consulting an industry that you want to change regulations on is standard form. That's what regulators themselves do. So I don't see how that on its face equates to corruption.
It seems like you are calling policies you disagree with corruption.
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