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President Obama Re-Elected - Page 1077

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Hey guys! We'll be closing this thread shortly, but we will make an American politics megathread where we can continue the discussions in here.

The new thread can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383301
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
October 27 2012 18:53 GMT
#21521
On October 28 2012 03:09 DoubleReed wrote:
People saying that Colin Powell voted along race lines are completely random. There's nothing to even remotely suggest that. The only reason I can come up with that people are saying that is because they are projecting. They're like "Well I wouldn't vote for a black guy, but because he's black he must not ever want to vote for a white guy!" It's just a straight up racist claim.

I wish somebody asked Sununu if he was voting for Mitt Romney because he is white.


Wait, Colin Powell voted for Obama based on him having a coherent foreign policy that has had some demonstrable success in the last 4 years.

Sununu should GTFO. Didn't he resign in shame for spending government money on personal trips and expenses?
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
ThomasjServo
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
15244 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-27 19:17:51
October 27 2012 19:09 GMT
#21522
On October 28 2012 03:53 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2012 03:09 DoubleReed wrote:
People saying that Colin Powell voted along race lines are completely random. There's nothing to even remotely suggest that. The only reason I can come up with that people are saying that is because they are projecting. They're like "Well I wouldn't vote for a black guy, but because he's black he must not ever want to vote for a white guy!" It's just a straight up racist claim.

I wish somebody asked Sununu if he was voting for Mitt Romney because he is white.


Wait, Colin Powell voted for Obama based on him having a coherent foreign policy that has had some demonstrable success in the last 4 years.

Sununu should GTFO. Didn't he resign in shame for spending government money on personal trips and expenses?


That as well as calling Obama "Lazy," and said, "I wish this president would learn how to be an American.” You can read more here. He also had some rather interesting opinions of Israel per the article.

Ultimately it seems he feels minorities, mainly black voters, not voting for Romney is racist. Seems reasonable.
Sovern
Profile Joined March 2011
United States312 Posts
October 27 2012 19:40 GMT
#21523
I'm voting independent, in my opinion they were the most honest, had the best moral as I have yet to see an independent ad where they personally bashed the other party, and they didn't get into any heated debates. I hope that independent takes the crown, imagine how crazy that would be. We can all dream can't we.....
sc2superfan101
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
3583 Posts
October 27 2012 19:53 GMT
#21524
On October 28 2012 01:59 Trumpet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2012 01:53 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On October 28 2012 01:50 Trumpet wrote:
On October 28 2012 01:46 ShadeR wrote:
what is it exactly that caused the republican party to become what it is today. so completely anti-intellectual?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

Yeah that's not used any more.

Yes and no. I live in Louisiana, and it certainly isn't explicit, but it's still kinda there. When our politicians mention people on welfare, food stamps, gov't aid of any kind, they mean exactly one thing and voters still respond to it.

But it's not exactly ancient history either, the most obvious recent example I can think of is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Duke (early 90s)

Anyway, he was asking what made the republican party get to the anti-intellectual status is has today, I'd say southern strategy is a big part, if not the biggest part, of why that is, regardless of whether or not it's still actively employed.

how do you know that they mean racism when they mention people om welfare, food stamps, etc?

and what does the supposed "southern strategy" which had the alleged intent of appealing the segregationists (god I wish people would actually read history) have to do with alleged anti-intellectualism?
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
Signet
Profile Joined March 2007
United States1718 Posts
October 27 2012 20:40 GMT
#21525
On October 27 2012 14:39 Kolya504 wrote:
That is interesting, but I am fairly certain that pollsters *do* actively weight by partisan affiliation, although I'm sure its not a universal practice. The notion that pollsters get it "roughly correct" as stated in the article is true - but in most elections you can call the outcome by being "roughly correct." This one is closer than usual.

As a side note - only ~9% of voters called bother to answer pollsters' questions; there is explicit selection bias there.

Ah, I'm just reading an article right now that says Gallup does weight their sample by party ID.
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-27 21:16:57
October 27 2012 20:45 GMT
#21526
On October 28 2012 04:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2012 01:59 Trumpet wrote:
On October 28 2012 01:53 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On October 28 2012 01:50 Trumpet wrote:
On October 28 2012 01:46 ShadeR wrote:
what is it exactly that caused the republican party to become what it is today. so completely anti-intellectual?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

Yeah that's not used any more.

Yes and no. I live in Louisiana, and it certainly isn't explicit, but it's still kinda there. When our politicians mention people on welfare, food stamps, gov't aid of any kind, they mean exactly one thing and voters still respond to it.

But it's not exactly ancient history either, the most obvious recent example I can think of is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Duke (early 90s)

Anyway, he was asking what made the republican party get to the anti-intellectual status is has today, I'd say southern strategy is a big part, if not the biggest part, of why that is, regardless of whether or not it's still actively employed.

how do you know that they mean racism when they mention people om welfare, food stamps, etc?

and what does the supposed "southern strategy" which had the alleged intent of appealing the segregationists (god I wish people would actually read history) have to do with alleged anti-intellectualism?

Without reading thoughts it would seem like a little bit of a stretch. However, the strategy seems to be a targeted appeal to a certain group of people among others segregationists. Anti-intellectualism is directly linked to conservative (conservative as in being reluctant to change) and religious values (basically the bible is the final truth and belief in a interventionistl god). Segregation was based on conservatives (previously democrats!) from the south not wanting to accept a total equal black and white (that is cultural conservativism). My guess is that this reluctance to change also covers protecting against anything that can create doubt about the truth of the bible (basically any education, but especially evolution) and any science with results able to at least make people question the divines eternal and ubiquitous power.

Basically the culture from generations back in the south is what is being seen as something to strive for, so the term Southern Strategy is broader than just appealing to KKK and amish people.

As for his knowledge about racist motivation: It is probably based on how the people listening is actually understanding it. People on foodstamps and welfare has probably become a codeword for the n-word in certain circles.
Repeat before me
antelope591
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada820 Posts
October 27 2012 20:49 GMT
#21527
On October 28 2012 01:45 Darknat wrote:
Regardless of who wins in November Obama needs to face impeachment hearings for Obamacare and Benghazi.


Itll be hilarious if Obama wins just to watch people like this guys's reactions...the whole south is probably gonna have an aneurysm. I can't wait
nttea
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Sweden4353 Posts
October 27 2012 20:56 GMT
#21528
just some weeks ago i laughed at the thought of romney winning.... what the shit how is he even a candidate??
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22069 Posts
October 27 2012 20:59 GMT
#21529
One thing i wonder is if America will be governable after this election.

While views ofc very there is atm a lot of obstuction from the Republicans towards Obama to try and make him a one term president. Will this continue if he gets reelected?

Will the Democrats return the favor if Romney win?

Regardless of who wins I think both candidates have to be a little worried about how the House/Senate will shut them down.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Romantic
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1844 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-27 21:16:12
October 27 2012 21:15 GMT
#21530
On October 27 2012 22:27 Barrin wrote:
Fuck this shit I'm voting Gary Johnson. End the 2-party system!

Never been more sure. Who's with me?


Johnson or Romney for me. I live in a solid blue state so it doesn't particularly matter... haven't decided which one I will vote for yet.

On October 28 2012 05:56 nttea wrote:
just some weeks ago i laughed at the thought of romney winning.... what the shit how is he even a candidate??


Don't worry, if we cared at all about Swedish politics we'd probably feel the same about some of your candidates.
HunterX11
Profile Joined March 2009
United States1048 Posts
October 27 2012 21:17 GMT
#21531
On October 28 2012 04:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
how do you know that they mean racism when they mention people om welfare, food stamps, etc?

and what does the supposed "southern strategy" which had the alleged intent of appealing the segregationists (god I wish people would actually read history) have to do with alleged anti-intellectualism?


The Southern Strategy was not a "supposed" or "alleged" strategy: it has been explained by campaign advisers who utilized it! You can argue that it isn't relevant today (which is an opinion with which I'd disagree), but claiming that it was not originally about appealing to racism isn't even an opinion--it's simply factually incorrect.
Try using both Irradiate and Defensive Matrix on an Overlord. It looks pretty neat.
darthfoley
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States8004 Posts
October 27 2012 21:50 GMT
#21532
On October 28 2012 06:15 Romantic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2012 22:27 Barrin wrote:
Fuck this shit I'm voting Gary Johnson. End the 2-party system!

Never been more sure. Who's with me?


Johnson or Romney for me. I live in a solid blue state so it doesn't particularly matter... haven't decided which one I will vote for yet.

Show nested quote +
On October 28 2012 05:56 nttea wrote:
just some weeks ago i laughed at the thought of romney winning.... what the shit how is he even a candidate??


Don't worry, if we cared at all about Swedish politics we'd probably feel the same about some of your candidates.


nah how the fuck is romney taken seriously?
watch the wall collide with my fist, mostly over problems that i know i should fix
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
October 27 2012 21:53 GMT
#21533
On October 28 2012 06:50 darthfoley wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2012 06:15 Romantic wrote:
On October 27 2012 22:27 Barrin wrote:
Fuck this shit I'm voting Gary Johnson. End the 2-party system!

Never been more sure. Who's with me?


Johnson or Romney for me. I live in a solid blue state so it doesn't particularly matter... haven't decided which one I will vote for yet.

On October 28 2012 05:56 nttea wrote:
just some weeks ago i laughed at the thought of romney winning.... what the shit how is he even a candidate??


Don't worry, if we cared at all about Swedish politics we'd probably feel the same about some of your candidates.


nah how the fuck is romney taken seriously?

Why wouldn't he be? If you want to contribute say something substantial.
armada[sb]
Profile Joined August 2011
United States432 Posts
October 27 2012 22:06 GMT
#21534
I'd just like to say that I called out Swazi for being a troll before anyone. I'm a Swazi Hipster.
#Hitpoint @ GameSurge (IDLE=BAN)
sc2superfan101
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
3583 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-27 22:10:40
October 27 2012 22:09 GMT
#21535
On October 28 2012 06:17 HunterX11 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2012 04:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
how do you know that they mean racism when they mention people om welfare, food stamps, etc?

and what does the supposed "southern strategy" which had the alleged intent of appealing the segregationists (god I wish people would actually read history) have to do with alleged anti-intellectualism?


The Southern Strategy was not a "supposed" or "alleged" strategy: it has been explained by campaign advisers who utilized it! You can argue that it isn't relevant today (which is an opinion with which I'd disagree), but claiming that it was not originally about appealing to racism isn't even an opinion--it's simply factually incorrect.

i wrote so many words... for so small an argument..


boredom is a killer:

+ Show Spoiler +

my point, and let this serve as a response to radiatoren also, is that one cannot look at historical sociopolitical shifts as one dimensional events which occur suddenly and in a vacuum, unaffected by those ideas which came before them and made up the ideological world they lived in. whether there was some specific (by specific I mean localized, not general) occurrences of pandering to racist/segregationist elements by specific Republicans or Republican campaigners is not what I am challenging. rather, I challenging two assertions made by the reference to the "southern strategy" as a possible explanation for the alleged anti-intellectualism in the Republican party, allegedly driven by the more conservative elements.

the first assertion (which is implied) is that the Southern Strategy was, and remains, a driving force of intellectual development within the party and movement (Republican and conservative). the second assertion, more explicit in nature, was that there is an anti-intellectualism that composes enough of a part of the conservative/Republican ideology that it could be considered as an accurate, general label.

for the first assertion, I can point to the fact that segregation itself was fought by as many conservative Republicans as progressive ones. in fact, it was not the progressives who drove abolition and later anti-segregation; they simply attached themselves to the Republicans in the late 1800s, early 1900s due to Republican support of an inclusive society. the progressives were primarily redistributive, their support for an inclusive society was largely coincidental. it was not that they supported anti-segregation for the sake of anti-segregation as much as it was a rather practical way to gain votes and grow the tax-paying base at the same time. this is not to say that there were no legitimately anti-segregationist progressives, just that in general, redistribution took precedence over any kind of racial equality.

I could spend hours going through the nuances of Republicanism in the 1900s, but let's skip that and accept the History channel's somewhat simplistic explanations (which completely neglect the 1920s and 30s), so that we can examine the "Southern Strategy's" effect on today's Republicans as an anti-intellectual force. i would assert that both arguments are wrong, 1) that the southern strategy has any consequential effect whatsoever on modern conservative-Republican ideology, and 2) that the southern strategy was, itself, either racist or anti-intellectual. One must ask oneself why the very people who supported desegregation rather vehemently would then turn around without warning and court the segregationists? why would Goldwater and Nixon, both noted anti-racists and anti-segregationists in the 50s and 60s, suddenly in the mid-60s become racist, segregationists? it makes no sense because it didn't happen that way.

the "southern strategy" was as much about anti-Communism as it was about anti-redistribution. further, segregation at that point had become centered around the issue (among other issues) of the federally enforced desegregation of public and private society. many of the people who found themselves on the side of the segregationists on the issue of forced busing, for example, were not racists at all, and in fact some were members of the NAACP and had participated in anti-segregation movements in the 50s and 60s. some of them were even blacks themselves, who opposed busing on the grounds that it was both ineffective and was a federal overreach. their opposition for federally enforced desegregation and affirmative-action were entirely intellectual. it was these people, who were also largely anti-Communist, that the Republicans sought to court. the Democrats (among others) painted it as anti-segregation and as betrayal, and were actually very successful in the propagation of that image.

as for the Southern Strategy being a force on today's policies and ideologies, I would argue that it was in no way a new or radical thing, what the partakers of the so-called "Southern Strategy" were suggesting and arguing for. they argued for anti-Communism, anti-federal expansion, and for the strict maintenance of law and order. these ideas, whether inherently racist or not, were not new and were not receiving some kind of special attention. the writings of William F. Buckley Jr. were by far more influential to the ideological modern conservative than the opinions of some Nixon campaign adviser.

obviously this explanation above is incomplete, as I've completely neglected mentioning the Roosevelt's, the Rockefeller's, Coolidge, the Great Depression, WW2, WW1, Woodrow Wilson, Bull Conner, George Wallace, and have given only the tiniest of nods to Buckley and the National Review. but I think it should suffice to at least show that claiming the "Southern Strategy" was either explicitly and generally racist, or that it was based in anti-intellectualism, is false. as for it being relevant to today's ideology, I would say that the claim is so wild and unsupported as to require significant evidence to even be uttered. one might as well claim the sky as being red and then declare that the onus is on me to prove otherwise.

now, onto the idea that the Republicans are generally anti-intellectual at all. this comes from 1) the rejection of the conservatives of progressivism and redistribution and, 2) the conservative opposition to the perceived progressive take-over of academia. I would argue that the conservative argument against progressivism is very rational and is based on the writings and opinions of very educated men and women who were anything but anti-intellectual. as for whether the conservative perception of academia is correct or well-founded, well, that is not an argument I am prepared to have. it would require hours of research on my part, and would likely have a less-than desirable result. one might argue that conservative ideology is irrelevant to today, or is unworthy of being given attention by our educators, and this is an opinion that cannot be effectively argued by the conservative. what is clear, however, is that the modern conservative ideology is not given nearly the attention by educators as the modern liberal ideology is. the student or scholar is undeniably more likely to hear the arguments against McCarthyism, than the arguments for it's necessity and desirability. whether this is appropriate or not is up to you, but don't accuse those who feel that it is inappropriate to exclude one side of the argument from our teaching about the argument of being anti-intellectual.

as for us deciding which words are "codewords" or not, I will simply leave you with the suggestion that if one assumes a priori that certain phrases or words contain implicit racism than one has effectively engaged in the fallacy of poisoning the well. which could be construed as being anti-intellectual. just sayin'.

(I realize this is short on sources, but most of this is... well, some of it is common knowledge. as for the rest, either take my word for it or prove how not anti-intellectual you are and find some sources that prove me wrong.)
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
jdsowa
Profile Joined March 2011
405 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-27 22:18:33
October 27 2012 22:17 GMT
#21536
There's no doubt that some of the black vote for Obama is due to his being black. Blacks went 88% for Kerry in '04 and 95% for Obama in '08. There are blacks at my job that have Obama photos and stickers in their office area. That was never the case for any previous Dem candidate.

Republican racism is overstated. Republicans were overwhelmingly set to go with Herman Cain as their candidate before the scandal broke out.

DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-27 22:36:51
October 27 2012 22:35 GMT
#21537
I'm frankly pretty shocked that people still want to vote for Romney. I understand that people don't like Obama. But I'm just not understanding why anyone would vote for someone who is so obviously bought and paid for like Romney is.

Yes, I understand that Obama is too, but jesus he is not at all so brazen about it. I mean Romney basically came back from talking to Oil Companies and said he now has an energy policy. His main economic plan that he's revealed is flat tax cuts which benefit the rich extraordinarily. Romney has come out for Corporate Personhood. At least Obama has the decency to have rhetoric against it. The flip-flopping on all social policies is yet another reason to think that Romney does whatever money tells him. I mean do you honestly think Romney will make responsible policies for banks and wall street?

So Romney-voters, I have to ask: what exactly does a guy have to do to make himself too corrupt to vote for? I really want to know. What would Romney have to do in order to lose your vote?

On October 28 2012 07:17 jdsowa wrote:
There's no doubt that some of the black vote for Obama is due to his being black. Blacks went 88% for Kerry in '04 and 95% for Obama in '08. There are blacks at my job that have Obama photos and stickers in their office area. That was never the case for any previous Dem candidate.

Republican racism is overstated. Republicans were overwhelmingly set to go with Herman Cain as their candidate before the scandal broke out.



There is absolutely zero reason to think that Colin Powell is one of those people.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
October 27 2012 22:56 GMT
#21538
On October 28 2012 07:35 DoubleReed wrote:
I'm frankly pretty shocked that people still want to vote for Romney. I understand that people don't like Obama. But I'm just not understanding why anyone would vote for someone who is so obviously bought and paid for like Romney is.

Yes, I understand that Obama is too, but jesus he is not at all so brazen about it. I mean Romney basically came back from talking to Oil Companies and said he now has an energy policy. His main economic plan that he's revealed is flat tax cuts which benefit the rich extraordinarily. Romney has come out for Corporate Personhood. At least Obama has the decency to have rhetoric against it. The flip-flopping on all social policies is yet another reason to think that Romney does whatever money tells him. I mean do you honestly think Romney will make responsible policies for banks and wall street?

So Romney-voters, I have to ask: what exactly does a guy have to do to make himself too corrupt to vote for? I really want to know. What would Romney have to do in order to lose your vote?

Be more corrupt than Obama.

Honestly, I don't know how else to respond to random partisan blathering.
ShadeR
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7535 Posts
October 27 2012 23:11 GMT
#21539
maybe the standard is a bit high but the impression of anti-intellectualism stems from a comparaison of the commentators of old like william buckley and the modern neo-con equivalent whoever it is.
Picklebread
Profile Joined June 2011
808 Posts
October 27 2012 23:16 GMT
#21540
On October 28 2012 06:50 darthfoley wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2012 06:15 Romantic wrote:
On October 27 2012 22:27 Barrin wrote:
Fuck this shit I'm voting Gary Johnson. End the 2-party system!

Never been more sure. Who's with me?


Johnson or Romney for me. I live in a solid blue state so it doesn't particularly matter... haven't decided which one I will vote for yet.

On October 28 2012 05:56 nttea wrote:
just some weeks ago i laughed at the thought of romney winning.... what the shit how is he even a candidate??


Don't worry, if we cared at all about Swedish politics we'd probably feel the same about some of your candidates.


nah how the fuck is romney taken seriously?

From what I gather, I think alot of people are voting for him based on his experience of being a businessman and think that hes just more qualified to set the economy straight then obama. Most of us that fact check and whatnot think hes a little shit because he lies and he said he wouldve let detroit go bankrupt but those of us that vote for him, are doing so because he has experience with budgets and economy.

Please, correct me if im wrong.
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