|
|
Anyone care to talk about developments in the campaign? We've beaten this Bio issue to death.
I was hoping someone could explain to me how Mitt Romney plans to lower taxes AND the deficit -- or if anyone actually believes he'll do so.
|
By reducing overall government spending, of course. The two aren't mutually exclusive, you just need larger cuts to do both. The real question is what Romney/Obama would actually cut.
|
On May 19 2012 03:17 Defacer wrote:
Anyone care to talk about developments in the campaign? We've beaten this Bio issue to death.
I was hoping someone could explain to me how Mitt Romney plans to lower taxes AND the deficit -- or if anyone actually believes he'll do so.
Didn't he endorse the Ryan budget?
I think the basic idea is to gut Medicare.
|
On May 19 2012 03:26 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 03:17 Defacer wrote:
Anyone care to talk about developments in the campaign? We've beaten this Bio issue to death.
I was hoping someone could explain to me how Mitt Romney plans to lower taxes AND the deficit -- or if anyone actually believes he'll do so.
Didn't he endorse the Ryan budget? I think the basic idea is to gut Medicare.
Don't forget Medicaid. The first program any Republican would cut is Medicaid.
|
On May 19 2012 02:59 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 01:53 kwizach wrote:On May 19 2012 00:24 xDaunt wrote:Yep, there's definitely no basis for my assertion that Obama has fibbed about his birthplace. While some quickly dismissed as an anomaly yesterday’s explosive revelation that Barack Obama’s former literary agency billed him as “born in Kenya” back in 1991 in connection with a book he never wrote, WND has discovered much later published references – some dated as recently as 2003 – used to promote his highly touted book “Dreams of My Father.”
As WND reported, Breitbart News originally found a brochure from two decades ago in which literary agency Acton & Dystel promoted Obama as the author of the never-produced “Journeys in Black and White” by declaring Obama was “born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii.”
Through the Internet archive Wayback Machine, WND found an August 2003 listing of Dystel & Goderich’s author bios, including the following: “Barack Obama was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in Kenya to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister, and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii and Chicago. His first book is ‘Dreams of My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance.”
Twelve years later, however, the Dystel of Acton & Dystel was busy promoting Obama’s new book, “Dreams of My Father,” and still touting the author as “born in Kenya.”
Even if the original 1991 brochure’s listing of Kenya as Obama’s birthplace was in error, as the agency has since claimed, it apparently was an error Obama allowed his publicist to persist in for over a decade. Source. No, there's no basis for your assertion, since there is zero evidence it's Obama who lied about his birthplace rather than the editor who made a mistake (as the very person with whom the mistake originated claimed herself). Let's look at those biographies. 1991: "Barack Obama, the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review, was born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii. The son of an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister" 2003: "Barack Obama was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in Kenya to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister, and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii and Chicago. " 2007: "Barack Obama [...] was [...] the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in Kenya to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii, and Chicago." Don't they look somewhat similar to you? Do you think that maybe, I don't know, the original mistake simply was not corrected when the short biographies were copy/pasted? Or is that too much of a stretch? Sure, they are extremely similar. But now that it's shown up more than once, the claim that "Obama never saw it" is far less likely. I know that every time someone writes a profile on me, I am curious and want to read it.
Good for you. I don't think you'll find many authors who actively fact-check the paragraph-bios of themselves written by their editor, especially if it's the same bio getting updated every once in a while.
On May 19 2012 02:59 BluePanther wrote:The truth is that Obama likely doesn't even know where he was born himself. Do you remember where you were when you were <1 month old? He probably saw it and was like "fuck it, whatever. makes me sound better anyways." It's a weak argument that he did something wrong or that he's a bad person... but I see no reason why Daunt isn't allowed to make his claim.
No, there's nothing that indicates he "probably saw it" and "was like, fuck it". xDaunt is of course allowed to make his claim, but he's trying to argue that his assertion is solidly grounded when it's not in the slightest.
|
On May 19 2012 03:26 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 03:17 Defacer wrote:
Anyone care to talk about developments in the campaign? We've beaten this Bio issue to death.
I was hoping someone could explain to me how Mitt Romney plans to lower taxes AND the deficit -- or if anyone actually believes he'll do so.
Didn't he endorse the Ryan budget? I think the basic idea is to gut Medicare.
Ryan plan doesn't "gut" Medicare. The idea is that about 20 years from now Medicare and Medicaid will be re-worked so that they are paid through private insurance companies cutting out government bureaucracy and reducing costs. It doesn't affect anyone who is currently over the age of 55, their medicare would stay exactly the same until the day they die. The idea is to realign it for the next generation. It's explained by Republicans here: http://www.roadmap.republicans.budget.house.gov/plan/#Healthsecurity
|
On May 19 2012 03:17 Defacer wrote:
I was hoping someone could explain to me how Mitt Romney plans to lower taxes AND the deficit -- or if anyone actually believes he'll do so.
Romney and Obama have the same objective. It's basically hope and pray for economic growth so the US can boom its way out of trouble. But they're going at it from different directions. Obama would spend on social programs and give money to the poor to spend, on the assumption that increased spending will spur economic growth that can be sustained. Romney would cut taxes to corporations and on investments (or guarantee the Bush tax cuts would stay), on the assumption that they will be re-invested into business developments that will spur economic growth.
To be honest, the US has already tried both and neither has worked. Giving money to heavily indebted consumers in a globalized market is stupid, it either goes to paying off loans or it goes to products that are not made in the US. But giving tax breaks to the rich and to corporations is also not smart, because they can invest heavily in machines and not people, which is exactly what's been happening.
What you need is a policy where money will be spent primarily on benefiting American consumers while hiring American workers. Sooner or later, IMO this will mean a drastic increase in military spending. The elephant in the room that Keynesians keep ignoring about the 30s (and the 80s) is that government spending at the time works when it is primarily geared toward pulling young men out of society and giving them something to do. That guarantees the money stays largely in the US. Obviously you'd hope it would be more like the 80s than the 30s in that there's not a big war where lots of those young men die.
|
On May 19 2012 03:38 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 02:59 BluePanther wrote:On May 19 2012 01:53 kwizach wrote:On May 19 2012 00:24 xDaunt wrote:Yep, there's definitely no basis for my assertion that Obama has fibbed about his birthplace. While some quickly dismissed as an anomaly yesterday’s explosive revelation that Barack Obama’s former literary agency billed him as “born in Kenya” back in 1991 in connection with a book he never wrote, WND has discovered much later published references – some dated as recently as 2003 – used to promote his highly touted book “Dreams of My Father.”
As WND reported, Breitbart News originally found a brochure from two decades ago in which literary agency Acton & Dystel promoted Obama as the author of the never-produced “Journeys in Black and White” by declaring Obama was “born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii.”
Through the Internet archive Wayback Machine, WND found an August 2003 listing of Dystel & Goderich’s author bios, including the following: “Barack Obama was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in Kenya to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister, and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii and Chicago. His first book is ‘Dreams of My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance.”
Twelve years later, however, the Dystel of Acton & Dystel was busy promoting Obama’s new book, “Dreams of My Father,” and still touting the author as “born in Kenya.”
Even if the original 1991 brochure’s listing of Kenya as Obama’s birthplace was in error, as the agency has since claimed, it apparently was an error Obama allowed his publicist to persist in for over a decade. Source. No, there's no basis for your assertion, since there is zero evidence it's Obama who lied about his birthplace rather than the editor who made a mistake (as the very person with whom the mistake originated claimed herself). Let's look at those biographies. 1991: "Barack Obama, the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review, was born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii. The son of an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister" 2003: "Barack Obama was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in Kenya to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister, and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii and Chicago. " 2007: "Barack Obama [...] was [...] the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in Kenya to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii, and Chicago." Don't they look somewhat similar to you? Do you think that maybe, I don't know, the original mistake simply was not corrected when the short biographies were copy/pasted? Or is that too much of a stretch? Sure, they are extremely similar. But now that it's shown up more than once, the claim that "Obama never saw it" is far less likely. I know that every time someone writes a profile on me, I am curious and want to read it. Good for you. I don't think you'll find many authors who actively fact-check the paragraph-bios of themselves written by their editor, especially if it's the same bio getting updated every once in a while. Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 02:59 BluePanther wrote:The truth is that Obama likely doesn't even know where he was born himself. Do you remember where you were when you were <1 month old? He probably saw it and was like "fuck it, whatever. makes me sound better anyways." It's a weak argument that he did something wrong or that he's a bad person... but I see no reason why Daunt isn't allowed to make his claim.
No, there's nothing that indicates he "probably saw it" and "was like, fuck it". xDaunt is of course allowed to make his claim, but he's trying to argue that his assertion is solidly grounded when it's not in the slightest.
You claim there is nothing to indicate he saw it. There is also NOTHING to indicate he didn't see it. Your argument is not any more grounded in fact than Daunt's, and your inability to grasp this is frustrating. All we know is he didn't write it (allegedly). You will not be able to prove a negative. Therefore, Daunt's suspicions cannot be debunked, nor can they be proven wrong. And they are definitely NOT out of the realm of possibility.
|
On May 19 2012 03:42 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 03:26 BluePanther wrote:On May 19 2012 03:17 Defacer wrote:
Anyone care to talk about developments in the campaign? We've beaten this Bio issue to death.
I was hoping someone could explain to me how Mitt Romney plans to lower taxes AND the deficit -- or if anyone actually believes he'll do so.
Didn't he endorse the Ryan budget? I think the basic idea is to gut Medicare. Ryan plan doesn't "gut" Medicare. The idea is that about 20 years from now Medicare and Medicaid will be re-worked so that they are paid through private insurance companies cutting out government bureaucracy and reducing costs. It doesn't affect anyone who is currently over the age of 55, their medicare would stay exactly the same until the day they die. The idea is to realign it for the next generation. It's explained by Republicans here: http://www.roadmap.republicans.budget.house.gov/plan/#Healthsecurity
Ok, maybe poor choice of words. I meant to convey that the majority of savings comes from changing Medicare. Although I'm not super informed on the details of it.
|
On May 19 2012 03:26 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 03:17 Defacer wrote:
Anyone care to talk about developments in the campaign? We've beaten this Bio issue to death.
I was hoping someone could explain to me how Mitt Romney plans to lower taxes AND the deficit -- or if anyone actually believes he'll do so.
Didn't he endorse the Ryan budget? I think the basic idea is to gut Medicare.
The existing Bush Tax cuts already account for such a large part of the deficit. I'm don't see how gutting Medicare could possibly make up the difference with additional tax cuts on top of that.
Besides, I think there would be very serious public resistance to gutting Medicare and the Ryan budget, once people have a better understanding of the implications. And Romney hasn't exactly demonstrated he has any real convictions at.
If Romney does win, my prediction is that he'll make a few token spending cuts, but the US deficit would explode even further out of control.
|
On May 18 2012 12:46 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 09:45 Defacer wrote:On May 18 2012 09:22 xDaunt wrote:On May 18 2012 07:54 Defacer wrote:Update from the man that wrote the bio: Literary Agent Says 1991 Booklet was a Mistake
Breitbart News reports on a promotional booklet produced in 1991 by Barack Obama's then-literary agency which describes the author as "born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii."
Miriam Goderich issued the following statement to Political Wire:
"You're undoubtedly aware of the brouhaha stirred up by Breitbart about the erroneous statement in a client list Acton & Dystel published in 1991 (for circulation within the publishing industry only) that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. This was nothing more than a fact checking error by me -- an agency assistant at the time. There was never any information given to us by Obama in any of his correspondence or other communications suggesting in any way that he was born in Kenya and not Hawaii. I hope you can communicate to your readers that this was a simple mistake and nothing more."
Full disclosure: I am a client of the same literary agency. What's more likely? That state-issued birth certificates and passports have been forged, Secret Service background checks have failed, the entire news media is in Obama's pocket, and not a single credible witness or account has come forward to verify Obama's birth in Kenya? Or a junior/low-level assistant had a deadline and wrote a half-assed bio one afternoon? Actually, I would bet that Obama purposely misstated where he was born to improve his resume. Does being born in Kenya make anyone sound better? Seems like a silly thing to lie about. I attribute it to some person asking around the office, "His father is Kenyan, right? How about his mom? Some white lady? His synopsis says he was raised in Hawaii and Indonesia. Is this guy American or Indonesia or what? "Fuck it, I'm writing Kenya." Playing up one's minority status is big in liberal -- especially legal -- circles in the US. Think of it as a big, feel-good circle jerk for the "socially conscious." You'd have to be a lawyer and around those people to really understand.
so i'm assuming you're a lawyer then?
|
On May 19 2012 03:54 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 03:38 kwizach wrote:On May 19 2012 02:59 BluePanther wrote:On May 19 2012 01:53 kwizach wrote:On May 19 2012 00:24 xDaunt wrote:Yep, there's definitely no basis for my assertion that Obama has fibbed about his birthplace. While some quickly dismissed as an anomaly yesterday’s explosive revelation that Barack Obama’s former literary agency billed him as “born in Kenya” back in 1991 in connection with a book he never wrote, WND has discovered much later published references – some dated as recently as 2003 – used to promote his highly touted book “Dreams of My Father.”
As WND reported, Breitbart News originally found a brochure from two decades ago in which literary agency Acton & Dystel promoted Obama as the author of the never-produced “Journeys in Black and White” by declaring Obama was “born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii.”
Through the Internet archive Wayback Machine, WND found an August 2003 listing of Dystel & Goderich’s author bios, including the following: “Barack Obama was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in Kenya to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister, and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii and Chicago. His first book is ‘Dreams of My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance.”
Twelve years later, however, the Dystel of Acton & Dystel was busy promoting Obama’s new book, “Dreams of My Father,” and still touting the author as “born in Kenya.”
Even if the original 1991 brochure’s listing of Kenya as Obama’s birthplace was in error, as the agency has since claimed, it apparently was an error Obama allowed his publicist to persist in for over a decade. Source. No, there's no basis for your assertion, since there is zero evidence it's Obama who lied about his birthplace rather than the editor who made a mistake (as the very person with whom the mistake originated claimed herself). Let's look at those biographies. 1991: "Barack Obama, the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review, was born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii. The son of an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister" 2003: "Barack Obama was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in Kenya to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister, and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii and Chicago. " 2007: "Barack Obama [...] was [...] the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in Kenya to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii, and Chicago." Don't they look somewhat similar to you? Do you think that maybe, I don't know, the original mistake simply was not corrected when the short biographies were copy/pasted? Or is that too much of a stretch? Sure, they are extremely similar. But now that it's shown up more than once, the claim that "Obama never saw it" is far less likely. I know that every time someone writes a profile on me, I am curious and want to read it. Good for you. I don't think you'll find many authors who actively fact-check the paragraph-bios of themselves written by their editor, especially if it's the same bio getting updated every once in a while. On May 19 2012 02:59 BluePanther wrote:The truth is that Obama likely doesn't even know where he was born himself. Do you remember where you were when you were <1 month old? He probably saw it and was like "fuck it, whatever. makes me sound better anyways." It's a weak argument that he did something wrong or that he's a bad person... but I see no reason why Daunt isn't allowed to make his claim.
No, there's nothing that indicates he "probably saw it" and "was like, fuck it". xDaunt is of course allowed to make his claim, but he's trying to argue that his assertion is solidly grounded when it's not in the slightest. You claim there is nothing to indicate he saw it. There is also NOTHING to indicate he didn't see it. Your argument is not any more grounded in fact than Daunt's, and your inability to grasp this is frustrating. All we know is he didn't write it (allegedly). You will not be able to prove a negative. Therefore, Daunt's suspicions cannot be debunked, nor can they be proven wrong. And they are definitely NOT out of the realm of possibility.
I already explained on the last page that I completely agreed it was in the realm of possibility. Alien intervention in modifying the biography is also in the realm of possibility. xDaunt is arguing his assertion is grounded when it's not. He's making the claim, therefore the burden of proof lies with him.
|
On May 19 2012 04:06 darthfoley wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 12:46 xDaunt wrote:On May 18 2012 09:45 Defacer wrote:On May 18 2012 09:22 xDaunt wrote:On May 18 2012 07:54 Defacer wrote:Update from the man that wrote the bio: Literary Agent Says 1991 Booklet was a Mistake
Breitbart News reports on a promotional booklet produced in 1991 by Barack Obama's then-literary agency which describes the author as "born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii."
Miriam Goderich issued the following statement to Political Wire:
"You're undoubtedly aware of the brouhaha stirred up by Breitbart about the erroneous statement in a client list Acton & Dystel published in 1991 (for circulation within the publishing industry only) that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. This was nothing more than a fact checking error by me -- an agency assistant at the time. There was never any information given to us by Obama in any of his correspondence or other communications suggesting in any way that he was born in Kenya and not Hawaii. I hope you can communicate to your readers that this was a simple mistake and nothing more."
Full disclosure: I am a client of the same literary agency. What's more likely? That state-issued birth certificates and passports have been forged, Secret Service background checks have failed, the entire news media is in Obama's pocket, and not a single credible witness or account has come forward to verify Obama's birth in Kenya? Or a junior/low-level assistant had a deadline and wrote a half-assed bio one afternoon? Actually, I would bet that Obama purposely misstated where he was born to improve his resume. Does being born in Kenya make anyone sound better? Seems like a silly thing to lie about. I attribute it to some person asking around the office, "His father is Kenyan, right? How about his mom? Some white lady? His synopsis says he was raised in Hawaii and Indonesia. Is this guy American or Indonesia or what? "Fuck it, I'm writing Kenya." Playing up one's minority status is big in liberal -- especially legal -- circles in the US. Think of it as a big, feel-good circle jerk for the "socially conscious." You'd have to be a lawyer and around those people to really understand. so i'm assuming you're a lawyer then?
I believe he is, I think he was one of them in the Obamacare thread.
|
On May 19 2012 04:15 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 03:54 BluePanther wrote:On May 19 2012 03:38 kwizach wrote:On May 19 2012 02:59 BluePanther wrote:On May 19 2012 01:53 kwizach wrote:On May 19 2012 00:24 xDaunt wrote:Yep, there's definitely no basis for my assertion that Obama has fibbed about his birthplace. While some quickly dismissed as an anomaly yesterday’s explosive revelation that Barack Obama’s former literary agency billed him as “born in Kenya” back in 1991 in connection with a book he never wrote, WND has discovered much later published references – some dated as recently as 2003 – used to promote his highly touted book “Dreams of My Father.”
As WND reported, Breitbart News originally found a brochure from two decades ago in which literary agency Acton & Dystel promoted Obama as the author of the never-produced “Journeys in Black and White” by declaring Obama was “born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii.”
Through the Internet archive Wayback Machine, WND found an August 2003 listing of Dystel & Goderich’s author bios, including the following: “Barack Obama was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in Kenya to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister, and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii and Chicago. His first book is ‘Dreams of My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance.”
Twelve years later, however, the Dystel of Acton & Dystel was busy promoting Obama’s new book, “Dreams of My Father,” and still touting the author as “born in Kenya.”
Even if the original 1991 brochure’s listing of Kenya as Obama’s birthplace was in error, as the agency has since claimed, it apparently was an error Obama allowed his publicist to persist in for over a decade. Source. No, there's no basis for your assertion, since there is zero evidence it's Obama who lied about his birthplace rather than the editor who made a mistake (as the very person with whom the mistake originated claimed herself). Let's look at those biographies. 1991: "Barack Obama, the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review, was born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii. The son of an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister" 2003: "Barack Obama was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in Kenya to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister, and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii and Chicago. " 2007: "Barack Obama [...] was [...] the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in Kenya to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii, and Chicago." Don't they look somewhat similar to you? Do you think that maybe, I don't know, the original mistake simply was not corrected when the short biographies were copy/pasted? Or is that too much of a stretch? Sure, they are extremely similar. But now that it's shown up more than once, the claim that "Obama never saw it" is far less likely. I know that every time someone writes a profile on me, I am curious and want to read it. Good for you. I don't think you'll find many authors who actively fact-check the paragraph-bios of themselves written by their editor, especially if it's the same bio getting updated every once in a while. On May 19 2012 02:59 BluePanther wrote:The truth is that Obama likely doesn't even know where he was born himself. Do you remember where you were when you were <1 month old? He probably saw it and was like "fuck it, whatever. makes me sound better anyways." It's a weak argument that he did something wrong or that he's a bad person... but I see no reason why Daunt isn't allowed to make his claim.
No, there's nothing that indicates he "probably saw it" and "was like, fuck it". xDaunt is of course allowed to make his claim, but he's trying to argue that his assertion is solidly grounded when it's not in the slightest. You claim there is nothing to indicate he saw it. There is also NOTHING to indicate he didn't see it. Your argument is not any more grounded in fact than Daunt's, and your inability to grasp this is frustrating. All we know is he didn't write it (allegedly). You will not be able to prove a negative. Therefore, Daunt's suspicions cannot be debunked, nor can they be proven wrong. And they are definitely NOT out of the realm of possibility. I already explained on the last page that I completely agreed it was in the realm of possibility. Alien intervention in modifying the biography is also in the realm of possibility. xDaunt is arguing his assertion is grounded when it's not. He's making the claim, therefore the burden of proof lies with him.
When someone proposes a suspicion, I consider it grounded when it's reasonably plausible. The idea that Obama saw it and didn't object is reasonably plausible when you consider the atmosphere he was working in. This is not the same as Obama confirming the statement as true, or admission by omission.
What do you define as "grounded"? That it must be proven as fact? Daunt merely said "I would bet x". He's not claiming a fact, he's claiming a guess at what the fact is. None of the evidence disproves this guess.
|
|
|
On May 19 2012 04:25 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 04:15 kwizach wrote:On May 19 2012 03:54 BluePanther wrote:On May 19 2012 03:38 kwizach wrote:On May 19 2012 02:59 BluePanther wrote:On May 19 2012 01:53 kwizach wrote:On May 19 2012 00:24 xDaunt wrote:Yep, there's definitely no basis for my assertion that Obama has fibbed about his birthplace. While some quickly dismissed as an anomaly yesterday’s explosive revelation that Barack Obama’s former literary agency billed him as “born in Kenya” back in 1991 in connection with a book he never wrote, WND has discovered much later published references – some dated as recently as 2003 – used to promote his highly touted book “Dreams of My Father.”
As WND reported, Breitbart News originally found a brochure from two decades ago in which literary agency Acton & Dystel promoted Obama as the author of the never-produced “Journeys in Black and White” by declaring Obama was “born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii.”
Through the Internet archive Wayback Machine, WND found an August 2003 listing of Dystel & Goderich’s author bios, including the following: “Barack Obama was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in Kenya to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister, and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii and Chicago. His first book is ‘Dreams of My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance.”
Twelve years later, however, the Dystel of Acton & Dystel was busy promoting Obama’s new book, “Dreams of My Father,” and still touting the author as “born in Kenya.”
Even if the original 1991 brochure’s listing of Kenya as Obama’s birthplace was in error, as the agency has since claimed, it apparently was an error Obama allowed his publicist to persist in for over a decade. Source. No, there's no basis for your assertion, since there is zero evidence it's Obama who lied about his birthplace rather than the editor who made a mistake (as the very person with whom the mistake originated claimed herself). Let's look at those biographies. 1991: "Barack Obama, the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review, was born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii. The son of an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister" 2003: "Barack Obama was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in Kenya to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister, and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii and Chicago. " 2007: "Barack Obama [...] was [...] the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in Kenya to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii, and Chicago." Don't they look somewhat similar to you? Do you think that maybe, I don't know, the original mistake simply was not corrected when the short biographies were copy/pasted? Or is that too much of a stretch? Sure, they are extremely similar. But now that it's shown up more than once, the claim that "Obama never saw it" is far less likely. I know that every time someone writes a profile on me, I am curious and want to read it. Good for you. I don't think you'll find many authors who actively fact-check the paragraph-bios of themselves written by their editor, especially if it's the same bio getting updated every once in a while. On May 19 2012 02:59 BluePanther wrote:The truth is that Obama likely doesn't even know where he was born himself. Do you remember where you were when you were <1 month old? He probably saw it and was like "fuck it, whatever. makes me sound better anyways." It's a weak argument that he did something wrong or that he's a bad person... but I see no reason why Daunt isn't allowed to make his claim.
No, there's nothing that indicates he "probably saw it" and "was like, fuck it". xDaunt is of course allowed to make his claim, but he's trying to argue that his assertion is solidly grounded when it's not in the slightest. You claim there is nothing to indicate he saw it. There is also NOTHING to indicate he didn't see it. Your argument is not any more grounded in fact than Daunt's, and your inability to grasp this is frustrating. All we know is he didn't write it (allegedly). You will not be able to prove a negative. Therefore, Daunt's suspicions cannot be debunked, nor can they be proven wrong. And they are definitely NOT out of the realm of possibility. I already explained on the last page that I completely agreed it was in the realm of possibility. Alien intervention in modifying the biography is also in the realm of possibility. xDaunt is arguing his assertion is grounded when it's not. He's making the claim, therefore the burden of proof lies with him. When someone proposes a suspicion, I consider it grounded when it's reasonably plausible. The idea that Obama saw it and didn't object is reasonably plausible when you consider the atmosphere he was working in. This is not the same as Obama confirming the statement as true, or admission by omission. What do you define as "grounded"? That it must be proven as fact? Daunt merely said "I would bet x". He's not claiming a fact, he's claiming a guess at what the fact is. None of the evidence disproves this guess.
"well-grounded" means "well-founded". Assumptions that have no factual evidence to support them are not "well-grounded". They're assumptions. The evidence does not have to disprove his guess, HE has to providence evidence FOR his guess. He wrote that there was basis to his "assertion that Obama has fibbed about his birthplace". No, there isn't. And he used the term "assertion", not "suspicion".
|
On May 19 2012 04:37 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 04:25 BluePanther wrote:On May 19 2012 04:15 kwizach wrote:On May 19 2012 03:54 BluePanther wrote:On May 19 2012 03:38 kwizach wrote:On May 19 2012 02:59 BluePanther wrote:On May 19 2012 01:53 kwizach wrote:On May 19 2012 00:24 xDaunt wrote:Yep, there's definitely no basis for my assertion that Obama has fibbed about his birthplace. While some quickly dismissed as an anomaly yesterday’s explosive revelation that Barack Obama’s former literary agency billed him as “born in Kenya” back in 1991 in connection with a book he never wrote, WND has discovered much later published references – some dated as recently as 2003 – used to promote his highly touted book “Dreams of My Father.”
As WND reported, Breitbart News originally found a brochure from two decades ago in which literary agency Acton & Dystel promoted Obama as the author of the never-produced “Journeys in Black and White” by declaring Obama was “born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii.”
Through the Internet archive Wayback Machine, WND found an August 2003 listing of Dystel & Goderich’s author bios, including the following: “Barack Obama was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in Kenya to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister, and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii and Chicago. His first book is ‘Dreams of My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance.”
Twelve years later, however, the Dystel of Acton & Dystel was busy promoting Obama’s new book, “Dreams of My Father,” and still touting the author as “born in Kenya.”
Even if the original 1991 brochure’s listing of Kenya as Obama’s birthplace was in error, as the agency has since claimed, it apparently was an error Obama allowed his publicist to persist in for over a decade. Source. No, there's no basis for your assertion, since there is zero evidence it's Obama who lied about his birthplace rather than the editor who made a mistake (as the very person with whom the mistake originated claimed herself). Let's look at those biographies. 1991: "Barack Obama, the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review, was born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii. The son of an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister" 2003: "Barack Obama was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in Kenya to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister, and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii and Chicago. " 2007: "Barack Obama [...] was [...] the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in Kenya to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii, and Chicago." Don't they look somewhat similar to you? Do you think that maybe, I don't know, the original mistake simply was not corrected when the short biographies were copy/pasted? Or is that too much of a stretch? Sure, they are extremely similar. But now that it's shown up more than once, the claim that "Obama never saw it" is far less likely. I know that every time someone writes a profile on me, I am curious and want to read it. Good for you. I don't think you'll find many authors who actively fact-check the paragraph-bios of themselves written by their editor, especially if it's the same bio getting updated every once in a while. On May 19 2012 02:59 BluePanther wrote:The truth is that Obama likely doesn't even know where he was born himself. Do you remember where you were when you were <1 month old? He probably saw it and was like "fuck it, whatever. makes me sound better anyways." It's a weak argument that he did something wrong or that he's a bad person... but I see no reason why Daunt isn't allowed to make his claim.
No, there's nothing that indicates he "probably saw it" and "was like, fuck it". xDaunt is of course allowed to make his claim, but he's trying to argue that his assertion is solidly grounded when it's not in the slightest. You claim there is nothing to indicate he saw it. There is also NOTHING to indicate he didn't see it. Your argument is not any more grounded in fact than Daunt's, and your inability to grasp this is frustrating. All we know is he didn't write it (allegedly). You will not be able to prove a negative. Therefore, Daunt's suspicions cannot be debunked, nor can they be proven wrong. And they are definitely NOT out of the realm of possibility. I already explained on the last page that I completely agreed it was in the realm of possibility. Alien intervention in modifying the biography is also in the realm of possibility. xDaunt is arguing his assertion is grounded when it's not. He's making the claim, therefore the burden of proof lies with him. When someone proposes a suspicion, I consider it grounded when it's reasonably plausible. The idea that Obama saw it and didn't object is reasonably plausible when you consider the atmosphere he was working in. This is not the same as Obama confirming the statement as true, or admission by omission. What do you define as "grounded"? That it must be proven as fact? Daunt merely said "I would bet x". He's not claiming a fact, he's claiming a guess at what the fact is. None of the evidence disproves this guess. "well-grounded" means "well-founded". Assumptions that have no factual evidence to support them are not "well-grounded". They're assumptions.
Daunt was clearly saying that given that social circle, it was unlikely it went unnoticed by Obama. Since I'm in that social circle, I understand what he's referring to. And he's right. There's no "proof", and it's probably impossible to find any. But it's definitely reasonable, in the sense that I would put it up there in the 50-50 range. Does that not meet your "well-grounded" definition?
|
a. Authors generally do not write the blurbs themselves.
b. It's not a mistake people would notice without looking for it and with significant background research. They had no real reason to do either at the time.
c. Even if Obama noticed, it's not a significant enough mistake to actually go and ask for a correction. As far as I can tell, there wasn't any actual content in the books/pamphlets about his childhood/birth, nor did he empathize this birth. If he did, the article probably would have talked about that rather than the blurbs.
d. The article had "Shocker!" in the title. Not that they still couldn't raise a valid point, but you should reaaaaaaally scrutinize and question sources like that.
It's weak evidence at best, not something to build the foundation of an argument/assertion on.
|
On May 19 2012 04:06 darthfoley wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 12:46 xDaunt wrote:On May 18 2012 09:45 Defacer wrote:On May 18 2012 09:22 xDaunt wrote:On May 18 2012 07:54 Defacer wrote:Update from the man that wrote the bio: Literary Agent Says 1991 Booklet was a Mistake
Breitbart News reports on a promotional booklet produced in 1991 by Barack Obama's then-literary agency which describes the author as "born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii."
Miriam Goderich issued the following statement to Political Wire:
"You're undoubtedly aware of the brouhaha stirred up by Breitbart about the erroneous statement in a client list Acton & Dystel published in 1991 (for circulation within the publishing industry only) that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. This was nothing more than a fact checking error by me -- an agency assistant at the time. There was never any information given to us by Obama in any of his correspondence or other communications suggesting in any way that he was born in Kenya and not Hawaii. I hope you can communicate to your readers that this was a simple mistake and nothing more."
Full disclosure: I am a client of the same literary agency. What's more likely? That state-issued birth certificates and passports have been forged, Secret Service background checks have failed, the entire news media is in Obama's pocket, and not a single credible witness or account has come forward to verify Obama's birth in Kenya? Or a junior/low-level assistant had a deadline and wrote a half-assed bio one afternoon? Actually, I would bet that Obama purposely misstated where he was born to improve his resume. Does being born in Kenya make anyone sound better? Seems like a silly thing to lie about. I attribute it to some person asking around the office, "His father is Kenyan, right? How about his mom? Some white lady? His synopsis says he was raised in Hawaii and Indonesia. Is this guy American or Indonesia or what? "Fuck it, I'm writing Kenya." Playing up one's minority status is big in liberal -- especially legal -- circles in the US. Think of it as a big, feel-good circle jerk for the "socially conscious." You'd have to be a lawyer and around those people to really understand. so i'm assuming you're a lawyer then?
Yep.
|
On May 19 2012 05:06 ManyCookies wrote:
a. Authors generally do not write the blurbs themselves.
b. It's not a mistake people would notice without looking for it and with significant background research. They had no real reason to do either at the time.
c. Even if Obama noticed, it's not a significant enough mistake to actually go and ask for a correction. As far as I can tell, there wasn't any actual content in the books/pamphlets about his childhood/birth, nor did he empathize this birth. If he did, the article probably would have talked about that rather than the blurbs.
d. The article had "Shocker!" in the title. Not that they still couldn't raise a valid point, but you should reaaaaaaally scrutinize and question sources like that.
It's weak evidence at best, not something to build the foundation of an argument/assertion on.
a. In the academic world, most people have multiple different resumes and/or biographies pre-prepared to send to organizations or even organizers when they are a guest of honor or featured individual. For example, I have two completely different resumes that I use depending on what type of organization I'm working with. I don't have a biography, but I'm also very young and have never been a guest of honor. I have, however, run events with guests of honor, and it's common practice to request their biography from them.
b. No, the editor would probably never realize. But if Obama read it (assuming he didn't write it himself), he would know.
c. I agree with this statement, which is why I consider it a moot point anyways (assuming he didn't write it).
d. Touche.
In the end it really has no bearing on anything significant IMO. At worst, he told a white lie. Given his resume, etc, I don't think, even if true, that it propelled him to something he would have never gotten otherwise.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
