EPTTransgender Miss Universe Canada Disqualified - Page 7
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In order for this topic to stay open, keep in mind the following: - Understand the difference between sex and gender - Please be respectful to those involved, particularly the transgendered - If you post without reason, or do not add to the discussion, you will be met with moderator action - If you don't know which pronoun is appropriate please feel free to read the topic and inform yourself before posting. We're all for debate but this is a sensitive subject for many people. | ||
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screamingpalm
United States1527 Posts
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MasterOfChaos
Germany2896 Posts
As a thought experiment, suppose technology has improved a lot. Now your body is dying. So you go to a hospital where they transplant your brain into some kind of machine, a new body, or they simply scan your brain and run it in a computer simulation. <small>I'm neglecting a few details here, such as how hormones interact with the brain, but those are just implementation details, and can be simulated by the machine</small> Is that still you? Do you keep your gender? For me the answer is a clear "yes" to both questions. For me a body is not much more than an avatar I use to interact with this world. If my avatar doesn't fit how I identify myself, why shouldn't I modify it? | ||
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crappen
Norway1546 Posts
On April 03 2012 19:38 judochopaction wrote: i am born a man and i am attracted to males. i have no idea why and honestly wish i wasnt. but its how it is, so i live with it. care to shed some light? Such a beautiful point, cause I alteast, dont need any reason or logic for it. It is what it is. Sometimes when discussing these things, its like discussing "Why am I here, what is my destiny, why was I born", although I like these questions, I find myself discussing these kinds of topic only with my self. | ||
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PanN
United States2828 Posts
On April 03 2012 19:44 MasterOfChaos wrote: Why do people identify so much with bodies? As a thought experiment, suppose technology has improved a lot. Now your body is dying. So you go to a hospital where they transplant your brain into some kind of machine, a new body, or they simply scan your brain and run it in a computer simulation. <small>I'm neglecting a few details here, such as how hormones interact with the brain, but those are just implementation details, and can be simulated by the machine</small> Is that still you? Do you keep your gender? For me the answer is a clear "yes" to both questions. For me a body is not much more than an avatar I use to interact with this world. If my avatar doesn't fit how I identify myself, why shouldn't I modify it? Beautifully well said. | ||
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QUEENT
Canada53 Posts
On April 03 2012 19:25 Spieltor wrote: ok I'll bite. The legality of something doesn't make it honest or correct. Yes, but it does make it legal. If you don't agree with something that is legal, please address that by challenging the legality of it. Do you believe that Canada should revoke the ability of transgendered individuals to change their sex? Do you believe that laws that prohibit discrimination against them should be overturned? On April 03 2012 19:25 Spieltor wrote: She does have an advantage, she used hormones and plastic surgery and beat all the competition. That should be a no brainer. I bet you approve of steroid use in baseball as well. She has an advantage against people who have not used hormones or cosmetic surgery, yes. However, I'm fairly sure that cosmetic surgery is either legal for use in pageants, or is at least tacitly allowed. She does not have a competitive advantage against her peers due to her cosmetic surgery, because they could also use it (and may have). Also, what is up with you suggesting that hormones confer a competitive advantage in a beauty contest...? On April 03 2012 19:25 Spieltor wrote: Yes, noone should discriminate against anyone, but at the same time, the contest is meant for people naturally born. he took the spot of another naturally born female by entering. Yes, noone should discriminate against anyone, but at the same time, we should have as many discriminatory events as we like. I'm confused. Please confirm that this is what you are saying. On April 03 2012 19:25 Spieltor wrote: you're saying if I were to have ovaries and suddenly discover it later in life, I'd change? Probably not, seeing as doctors would've discovered this upon birth or I'd die from PMS having no outlet, as I have no vagina. BUt lets assume we live in fairy land where someone can magically grow internal sex organs inconsistent with their body's birth gender. I'd have them removed and continue to live as I always lived. The point of the question is that you wouldn't change. You identify as male, and you admit that if your biological makeup decided to disagree with you, you would remove the offending anatomy. How is this different than the case of this woman? Also, it's education time: 1) Doctors have often failed to notice intersex characteristics at birth, and even later in life. Extensive testing can often be necessary in the cases where biological gender actually does matter (ie. competitive sports, look up Caster Semenya). 2) PMS stands for Pre-Menstrual Syndrome, which is not the same as menstruation, which is what you are referring to as needing a "outlet". Intersexuality does not mean you menstruate, and it really doesn't matter to the question, anyways. So, in completely missing the point of my last question, you still managed to agree with me that, if your biology were not in order with your self-perception, you would a) use surgery to correct it, and b) life your life as though it were an unfortunate mistake that caused some trouble but has been corrected. What do you have to say to this? | ||
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kafkaesque
Germany2006 Posts
It's deliberately insulting or at the very least insensitive to her life decisions. If she feels like a woman, looks like a woman and wants to be a woman, she's one in my book. The girl's argument in the video is pretty awesome: She shouldn't compete, not because she shouldn't be allowed to, but because beauty-pageants are horridly stupid. | ||
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PanN
United States2828 Posts
On April 03 2012 19:53 kafkaesque wrote: Could we please stop calling her "he"? It's deliberately insulting or at the very least insensitive to her life decisions. If she feels like a woman, looks like a women and wants to be a woman, she's one in my book. Anyone referring to her as a he is getting the exact punishment that a bigot on this site deserves. So no worries man! KwarK and others have it covered :D | ||
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Robinsa
Japan1333 Posts
On April 03 2012 19:04 aderum wrote: So if you see a person that has red hair but was born with brown hair, would you call them a brown haired person? If someone looks and defines her self as a woman, who are you to say that she isnt one? This is the best post in the whole thread. Its so much talk about "you were born this and that" but people have to understand that people change. I wasnt born a man either, I was born a boy and I guess it could have turned out in many different ways.  | ||
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Jojo131
Brazil1631 Posts
On April 03 2012 20:07 Robinsa wrote: This is the best post in the whole thread. Its so much talk about "you were born this and that" but people have to understand that people change. I wasnt born a man either, I was born a boy and I guess it could have turned out in many different ways. But like, does this mean I, and other men, could walk into a bar identified as ladies (heck, I'd even put on a wig) and therefore benefit off of ladies' night? Surely this isn't fair to the bar owner who's whole business plan is to recuperate the losses from serving free drinks to women by profiting from the abundance of men who were supposed to attend. Or what about healthcare/wage benefits for women? Surely there's a line to be drawn somewhere. | ||
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Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
The more interesting discussion we had going on last thread before it got closed was for competitions where being born biologically male might arguably BE an advantage, such as physical sports. In that case I think we were talking about whether horomone level tests might be a requirement. A lot of people have posted the 'duck test', but not all MtF transsexuals are as lucky as Jenna, many do not 'pass' the duck test. It's unfortunate, but testosterone's effects are much harder to reverse than the other way around (for this reason FtM transsexuals, while rarer, almost all 'pass' the duck test after horomone treatment). Some MtF transsexuals will NEVER pass the duck test, so I don't think that's a good line to use. To steal a bad catchphrase, Jenna is the 1%. What of the 99%? | ||
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gruff
Sweden2276 Posts
On April 03 2012 20:36 Jojo131 wrote: But like, does this mean I, and other men, could walk into a bar identified as ladies (heck, I'd even put on a wig) and therefore benefit off of ladies' night? Surely this isn't fair to the bar owner who's whole business plan is to recuperate the losses from serving free drinks to women by profiting from the abundance of men who were supposed to attend. Or what about healthcare/wage benefits for women? Surely there's a line to be drawn somewhere. If you walk around 24/7 identifying yourself as a woman I have no problem with you benefitting off ladies night. This isn't about dressing up as a woman. | ||
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Robinsa
Japan1333 Posts
On April 03 2012 20:36 Jojo131 wrote: But like, does this mean I, and other men, could walk into a bar identified as ladies (heck, I'd even put on a wig) and therefore benefit off of ladies' night? Surely this isn't fair to the bar owner who's whole business plan is to recuperate the losses from serving free drinks to women by profiting from the abundance of men who were supposed to attend. Or what about healthcare/wage benefits for women? Surely there's a line to be drawn somewhere. Actually I see it the other way. If anything, its ladies night thats discrimination. | ||
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kafkaesque
Germany2006 Posts
On April 03 2012 20:07 Robinsa wrote: I wasnt born a man either, I was born a boy Thanks for that line, I'm totally going to troll my next GF with an epic confession about not having been born a man. | ||
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BlaCha
Poland743 Posts
About the case tho, If she broken the rules she's supposed to be disqualified. That's it. | ||
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Jojo131
Brazil1631 Posts
On April 03 2012 20:43 gruff wrote: If you walk around 24/7 identifying yourself as a woman I have no problem with you benefitting off ladies night. This isn't about dressing up as a woman. I think it is, at least to some extent, and you not minding doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a problem if it happened. | ||
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gugarutz
Austria110 Posts
On April 03 2012 19:44 MasterOfChaos wrote: Why do people identify so much with bodies? As a thought experiment, suppose technology has improved a lot. Now your body is dying. So you go to a hospital where they transplant your brain into some kind of machine, a new body, or they simply scan your brain and run it in a computer simulation. <small>I'm neglecting a few details here, such as how hormones interact with the brain, but those are just implementation details, and can be simulated by the machine</small> Is that still you? Do you keep your gender? For me the answer is a clear "yes" to both questions. For me a body is not much more than an avatar I use to interact with this world. If my avatar doesn't fit how I identify myself, why shouldn't I modify it? I don't think i would be the person i am now without my body. I'm pretty sure i would make completely different decisions and think different. I don't think you can just eliminate the body and the biological procedures in your body in this discussion. I don't know why we feel as a women / men or why some are attracted to the same gender but i don't see any problem not letting them do what they want, in this case participating wont harm anyone. | ||
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ETisME
12283 Posts
On April 03 2012 19:44 MasterOfChaos wrote: Why do people identify so much with bodies? As a thought experiment, suppose technology has improved a lot. Now your body is dying. So you go to a hospital where they transplant your brain into some kind of machine, a new body, or they simply scan your brain and run it in a computer simulation. <small>I'm neglecting a few details here, such as how hormones interact with the brain, but those are just implementation details, and can be simulated by the machine</small> Is that still you? Do you keep your gender? For me the answer is a clear "yes" to both questions. For me a body is not much more than an avatar I use to interact with this world. If my avatar doesn't fit how I identify myself, why shouldn't I modify it? but you simply can't ignore the experience of being a male/female due to the physical body you had throughout your life that you had before your body died | ||
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
On April 03 2012 21:29 ETisME wrote: but you simply can't ignore the experience of being a male/female due to the physical body you had throughout your life that you had before your body died That doesn't change the fact that gender transcends the body. | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On April 03 2012 19:44 MasterOfChaos wrote: Why do people identify so much with bodies? As a thought experiment, suppose technology has improved a lot. Now your body is dying. So you go to a hospital where they transplant your brain into some kind of machine, a new body, or they simply scan your brain and run it in a computer simulation. <small>I'm neglecting a few details here, such as how hormones interact with the brain, but those are just implementation details, and can be simulated by the machine</small> Is that still you? Do you keep your gender? For me the answer is a clear "yes" to both questions. For me a body is not much more than an avatar I use to interact with this world. If my avatar doesn't fit how I identify myself, why shouldn't I modify it? Didnt't you answer it by yourself? You want to have a body to match the image of your brain so you can be indentified by other people. | ||
imallinson
United Kingdom3482 Posts
On April 03 2012 19:44 MasterOfChaos wrote: Why do people identify so much with bodies? As a thought experiment, suppose technology has improved a lot. Now your body is dying. So you go to a hospital where they transplant your brain into some kind of machine, a new body, or they simply scan your brain and run it in a computer simulation. <small>I'm neglecting a few details here, such as how hormones interact with the brain, but those are just implementation details, and can be simulated by the machine</small> Is that still you? Do you keep your gender? For me the answer is a clear "yes" to both questions. For me a body is not much more than an avatar I use to interact with this world. If my avatar doesn't fit how I identify myself, why shouldn't I modify it? I think in part it's due to how other people perceive your body which can shape how you see it. In the case of someone born male who feels female everyone around you is going to identify you as male. That has to be really hard on someone who doesn't identify with that image of themselves. | ||
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