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On March 15 2012 19:36 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 17:10 rotinegg wrote:On March 15 2012 16:48 broz0rs wrote:
Riot was willing to sell much of their soul to Kespa and it payed off.
I am convinced Korean broadcasting can turn any game into e-sport. Check out what Korean broadcasters do with Street Fighter. I wouldn't go as far as saying they "sold much of their soul" to Kespa... they just decided not to be an idiot like Blizzard and fuck themselves over lol Kespa: Hey Riot, esports? Riot: Sounds awesome, you have my support! Kespa: Hey Blizz, esports? Blizzard: MY ESPORTS!!! MINE!!! SCREW YOU!!! *lawsuit* esports is something global not korean , gomtv get much more casual/pro gamers involved globaly then kespa would ever do . they would just put a locker on starcraft 2 in wich is writed : pro gamer sc2 = korean 99% . just like they did with bw .
That is such an ignorant stupid post. Anybody regardless of nationality can be a BW progamer, there are no limits. However, not many foreigners are good enough to even compete with them Koreans, what more to enter the A-team.
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On March 15 2012 19:10 AegiS_ wrote:
I don't mind LoL getting support/ growing. What bugs me is the LoL players who come in a thread on a starcraft site and try to justify their game being more difficult than Starcraft.
They are different games, and factually starcraft requires more mechanics at a high level.. so in LoL as long as you have a good team and know the hero's abilities.. guess what? you have yourself a pretty high rank. in starcraft everything depends upon YOU, your mechanics / multitasking / apm, knowledge of the metagame, just soo much more than LoL.
Because I didn't play/watch Brood war or WC3 or ANY rts pre-sc2, when i bought sc2 it took me a few months to get to the highest tier (below pro level, now high masters) from being a competitive WoW arena player, whereas it might have taken a normal more casual gamer a half a year, probably more to get to the highest level. It took me about a month of playing LoL with my friend to be considered a "good player", equivilant to that of a masters player in sc2, with no real Dota experience prior.
My point is Starcraft is more difficult on a personal non team level. That can explain it's lack of growth. It can also explain the natural anger that comes from the Starcraft community, when a game that requires less skill / has less DEPTH, get's more attention than your own game, cause in the end that's all we really want.
What I have seen, its more like SC2 players are here telling that SC2 is more difficult and those who admit palying LoL tell them they are different, not necessarily more difficult.
You can tell all you want for teamplay meaning you dont need mechanics / multitasking / apm, knowledge of the metagame, but do you really need them to do well in SC2? From all the "just 4gate/6pool/3rax every game and you are in masters in no time" posts I would say you need far less skill in SC2 to be on high level.
Sure when it all depends only you, SC2 might be harder. After all you can only rage to your opponent for cheesing/playing op race etc instaed of blaming your support going 0/10/35 and saving your ass so many times. However most SC2 players seem to be on 1v1 mindset and not understand what teampaly actually means or why teamfights are not just 1a in.
In the end, I have seen so many posts claiming SC2>LoL skillwise without backing it anyway. All they say is SC2 is more difficult just because "I think so and now that I said it it is the TRUTH and you are fool to even try to say anything else", or "that other dude said its so so it must be so!", so I have no reason to belive it is true.
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On March 15 2012 19:10 AegiS_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 18:37 Rorance wrote:This thread has nothing on that one, at all. People are actually reasonably discussing things, not blindly stating opinions as facts. I suppose it's due to the OP having ban powers :D Seriously though, the display of the community in this thread is sickening. People bashing LoL for being "casual" despite never playing at the top level of play, it's like going into a BGH game in BW and claiming the game is for casuals without ever touching Melee. Also the BW die hards bashing both the LoL and SC2 fan(boys/girls), mocking them both and sticking their tongues out saying "I told you so, SC2 fails!" and "Now you know how we feel!" I personally love SC2, loved BW for a long while and play LoL occasionally when laddering on SC2 is stressing me out. What is most popular doesn't matter to me, I enjoy what I like to play (Too many games to name) and I know what I like to watch regarding E-Sports (SC2/SFxT/and a rare game of LoL/DOTA2). Honestly, why do other people's opinions and preferences regarding E-Sports have to ruin your day? Does it make you like BW, SC2 or any other game less? Does it make it less entertaining to watch for you knowing more people are watching and playing LoL? Does the fact more people enjoy watching the Summer Olympics make me enjoy watching snowboarding and hockey any less during the Winter Olympics? How many BW players compare their game to having the mental dexterity of chess along with the mechanics of playing an insane piece on piano? How many of you have ever watched an actual chess game? or watched a symphony in concert? You think chess players care that checkers is more accessible? I'm just repeating myself now but I am having a really hard time understanding you people. Why can't you just see this as an evolution of e-sports? As MorroW said, this is only good for E-Sports, having a mainstream sport to bring people into the scene and expose more people to SC2 and other E-Sports can only end well for everyone. I don't mind LoL getting support/ growing. What bugs me is the LoL players who come in a thread on a starcraft site and try to justify their game being more difficult than Starcraft. They are different games, and factually starcraft requires more mechanics at a high level.. so in LoL as long as you have a good team and know the hero's abilities.. guess what? you have yourself a pretty high rank. in starcraft everything depends upon YOU, your mechanics / multitasking / apm, knowledge of the metagame, just soo much more than LoL. Because I didn't play/watch Brood war or WC3 or ANY rts pre-sc2, when i bought sc2 it took me a few months to get to the highest tier (below pro level, now high masters) from being a competitive WoW arena player, whereas it might have taken a normal more casual gamer a half a year, probably more to get to the highest level. It took me about a month of playing LoL with my friend to be considered a "good player", equivilant to that of a masters player in sc2, with no real Dota experience prior. My point is Starcraft is more difficult on a personal non team level. That can explain it's lack of growth. It can also explain the natural anger that comes from the Starcraft community, when a game that requires less skill / has less DEPTH, get's more attention than your own game, cause in the end that's all we really want.
You must be reading some other topic, because I don't think I've seen anyone claim LoL is harder mechanically than SC2 or BW, it isn't. What is silly is people try to bash the 5v5 aspect down for a myriad of ridiculous reasons "a well you get bad teammates", dude, we're talking about ESPORT, you don't "get bad teammates" when 2 pro teams are fighting each other >_>_>_>
Nobody cares what the feeder at your 1300 elo was doing when we talk LoL as esports. Just like we don't care how you got 6 pooled in diamond when we talk about SC2 esports.
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On March 15 2012 16:48 broz0rs wrote:
Riot was willing to sell much of their soul to Kespa and it payed off.
I am convinced Korean broadcasting can turn any game into e-sport. Check out what Korean broadcasters do with Street Fighter.
Um... you don't think Street Fighter/the fighting game community is an esport? Or am I misinterpreting what you're saying
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konadora
Singapore66360 Posts
On March 15 2012 20:05 Angra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 16:48 broz0rs wrote:
Riot was willing to sell much of their soul to Kespa and it payed off.
I am convinced Korean broadcasting can turn any game into e-sport. Check out what Korean broadcasters do with Street Fighter. Um... you don't think Street Fighter/the fighting game community is an esport? Or am I misinterpreting what you're saying
you're misinterpreting, he's saying that riot did good in working hand-in-hand with OGN/KeSPA because they know how to sell their shit
Korean gaming channels made SSFIV/Tekken insanely popular
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Mechanics from hardest to easiest goes BW - SC2 - LoL
But mechanics isn't the only thing that judges a game's difficulty
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On March 15 2012 19:10 AegiS_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 18:37 Rorance wrote:This thread has nothing on that one, at all. People are actually reasonably discussing things, not blindly stating opinions as facts. I suppose it's due to the OP having ban powers :D Seriously though, the display of the community in this thread is sickening. People bashing LoL for being "casual" despite never playing at the top level of play, it's like going into a BGH game in BW and claiming the game is for casuals without ever touching Melee. Also the BW die hards bashing both the LoL and SC2 fan(boys/girls), mocking them both and sticking their tongues out saying "I told you so, SC2 fails!" and "Now you know how we feel!" I personally love SC2, loved BW for a long while and play LoL occasionally when laddering on SC2 is stressing me out. What is most popular doesn't matter to me, I enjoy what I like to play (Too many games to name) and I know what I like to watch regarding E-Sports (SC2/SFxT/and a rare game of LoL/DOTA2). Honestly, why do other people's opinions and preferences regarding E-Sports have to ruin your day? Does it make you like BW, SC2 or any other game less? Does it make it less entertaining to watch for you knowing more people are watching and playing LoL? Does the fact more people enjoy watching the Summer Olympics make me enjoy watching snowboarding and hockey any less during the Winter Olympics? How many BW players compare their game to having the mental dexterity of chess along with the mechanics of playing an insane piece on piano? How many of you have ever watched an actual chess game? or watched a symphony in concert? You think chess players care that checkers is more accessible? I'm just repeating myself now but I am having a really hard time understanding you people. Why can't you just see this as an evolution of e-sports? As MorroW said, this is only good for E-Sports, having a mainstream sport to bring people into the scene and expose more people to SC2 and other E-Sports can only end well for everyone. I don't mind LoL getting support/ growing. What bugs me is the LoL players who come in a thread on a starcraft site and try to justify their game being more difficult than Starcraft. They are different games, and factually starcraft requires more mechanics at a high level.. so in LoL as long as you have a good team and know the hero's abilities.. guess what? you have yourself a pretty high rank. in starcraft everything depends upon YOU, your mechanics / multitasking / apm, knowledge of the metagame, just soo much more than LoL. Because I didn't play/watch Brood war or WC3 or ANY rts pre-sc2, when i bought sc2 it took me a few months to get to the highest tier (below pro level, now high masters) from being a competitive WoW arena player, whereas it might have taken a normal more casual gamer a half a year, probably more to get to the highest level. It took me about a month of playing LoL with my friend to be considered a "good player", equivilant to that of a masters player in sc2, with no real Dota experience prior. My point is Starcraft is more difficult on a personal non team level. That can explain it's lack of growth. It can also explain the natural anger that comes from the Starcraft community, when a game that requires less skill / has less DEPTH, get's more attention than your own game, cause in the end that's all we really want.
You were like 1800 elo after a month? Respect. I wasn't even level 30 after a month even tho I played alot. Your comment sounds even more ridicolous than kolll back in the days.
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The LoL scene will never have a Day9 or Tastosis level of professionalism and quality. If their scene is the future of Esports then it's just not worth my time.
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On March 15 2012 20:31 IndoorSpawningPool wrote:
The LoL scene will never have a Day9 or Tastosis level of professionalism and quality. If their scene is the future of Esports then it's just not worth my time.
Couldn't agree more.
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cjin,
That doesn't really make you a pro as those guys have no understanding of the game.
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Having played CS, Q3 and WC3 since 1999 and watched pretty much every big esports event there has been this is quite saddening. CS and Quake getting replaced by console games and LoL being the biggest esports title, sigh.
I guess it's time for us old timers to retire from this and play our games in peace and quiet.
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On March 15 2012 19:10 AegiS_ wrote:It took me about a month of playing LoL with my friend to be considered a "good player", equivilant to that of a masters player in sc2, with no real Dota experience prior.
See this is the problem with this discussion. This quote simply isn't true. I do not believe you levelled to 30 with a fresh account (~300 or so games without exp boost) and reached moderate to high ELO equivalent to master league in one month of playing LoL. TL has a pretty active LoL community that is quite dedicated to the game and many people there aren't in the league you're talking about, there's just no way that someone without HoN/Dota experience is picking the game up from nowhere and reaching the top 2% of players in level 30 ranked play in a month. I know people who are hardcore gamers who have been playing LoL for a month and generally games with them start with them asking "so what does this guy I'm against in my lane do?".
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wait....what...? people are arguing saying lol is a difficult game? what... that's a tough argument to make i must say.
I mean I can see people giving arguments that lol is as difficult as dota (its not) or counterstrike or quake (also not) or whatever, but motherfucking starcraft? That's silly trolling. I mean I might be sounding like a troll not even giving my reasonings as to why starcraft is undoubtedly a million fucking times harder but I think anyone with even an ounce of common sense will have the realization that no game genre comes close to it in purely mechanical and strategical skill.
The mechanical part is obvious but you might ask why strategical? Starcraft is more difficult strategical simply because it isn't a team game I'm sorry but take any task that you can do solo and then try to do it with five people. It's simply harder.
The only thing starcraft lacks is team synergy...and out of other team games of LoL, dota, counterstrike, hell even wow arenas I don't believe lol takes it out of the bunch.
I'm hugely disappointed by the Korean esports scene to try and make a quick buck with a popular game like this and taint the name and competition of esports that they have held so dearly over the years. Everyone looked towards them for guidance in how this is done and them supporting arguably the most casual and mechanically easiest demanding game of nearly all multiplayer games flusters me.
The only argument that I've seen lol-defenders post against this is that ultimately the skill of gaming is between the players and the media on which they play doesn't matter if the competition is the fiercest. Absolutely 100% silly when it's possible to actually HIT the skill cap in the game.
This IS the case with LoL, pro players literally hit boundaries in trying to actually prove they're above their competition. Not even just pro players we're talking random level 30's play the game nearly correct because their is no strategy the standard cookie-cutter play is proving to be the best play. Where's the spectation in that? Every game is the same because the best play is figured out. That's ludicrous that people have solved the game within two years of serious competition.
How can you show absurd displays of skill when the mechanical player with 300 minion kills ends the game with 18k gold earned while the player with 50 has 12k? Same with the player who is 24-2 with 18k gold to the 6-6 player with 14k.
The advantages you gain are so minute that when one team in the lategame finally wins a teamfight you can actually just kill the towers and building in under a minute flat. Where the hell is the displaced skill there? In dota you can atleast have a buyback in case you lost the team fight, which in a lot of cases you DO lose the team fight because the heroes abilities are different.
At this point you might argue that the intense skill displaced is during the team fight. That statement is ONLY true IF and IF every hero in this game is essentially balanced in such a way to the extent that any team of 5 heroes is perfectly equivalent to the other 5 heroes in that game. Essentially what I'm saying is that the game must have perfected balance towards team fights to truly prove if one team is better than the other, since obviously nearly all other factors in the game are of minute importance.
And let me tell you bros, if it's even physically possible to balance a game in such a way then there is no way in a snowball's hell that League of Legends managed to do that.
If you're even attempting this logic you're just being emotionally clouded and close-mindedly arguing pointless irrational logic that simple isn't correct.
TL;DR: LoL's design is way past the no return in casualness. LoL is not a competitive game and is ruining Esports.
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And here we have yet another Grand Judge of Esports laying down the law that is, just because he says so it is. BEHOLD!
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Look at all those SC2 hipsters...
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This IS the case with LoL, pro players literally hit boundaries in trying to actually prove they're above their competition. Not even just pro players we're talking random level 30's play the game nearly correct because their is no strategy the standard cookie-cutter play is proving to be the best play. Where's the spectation in that? Every game is the same because the best play is figured out. That's ludicrous that people have solved the game within two years of serious competition.
I promised myself I wouldn't respond to this flamebait of a thread, but I'll pick out just one thing in your long, erroneous argument. The most dominant team on the scene right now (Moscow 5) has not lost a game yet on the tournament circuit. Their playstyle is radically different from everything that has been seen so far, and they are far and above every other pro team in terms of competition. Before they showed up, I might have been inclined to agree with you about the stagnation of the state of the game and cookie-cutter play. If the game has been 'solved' as you say, how should this kind of dominance be possible this far into the pro scene from a relatively new team, using a different style of play?
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People aren't sayng LoL is a hard game. They are just laughing at those that try to be elitist about SC2. SC2 is as casual as RTS games can get. Target audience includes the mothers of WoW players, according to Browder.
LoL may have sold their soul to esports, Blizzard sold it to something else. That's why RTS is dying in favour of MOBAs.
Korea is trying to keep esports alive. For that they need a popular game. SC2 is a failed game. It failed harder than WC3. So they have to move on. LoL is the obvious game to go with. It had insane stream views outside Korea. And now it apparently exploded in Korea. Two big factors; you can actually go to a PC Bang and just play it. And matches are actually in TV.
SC2 still hasn't overtaken SC BW. And it probably never will. All the rumours about proleague switching to SC2, at this point they will just disband completely. A switch to SC2 won't do much to keep RTS alive much longer.
Also, there is no other RTS game on the horizon that has the potential to replace both SC2 and SC BW.
But no Blizzard is still waging war on OGN and Kespa. Haha. Can't wait till WoW subscriptions start to really collapse fast. I'll be laughing the day Morhaime has to tell his wife and children he is fired.
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From a average joe's perspective, LoL is unwatchable and weird while Starcraft 2 actually is entertaining to someone who watches it for the first time. Ive actually had my girlfriend which never seen any starcraft game go "wow this is interesting".
From my perspective who is an avid gamer i dont get LoL either, maybe im too old i dunno. I would loved the concept if the animations and sounds were better. Doing good with a hero sounds fun but the game is just awful for my taste.
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lol even the sc2 community full of elitist trolls with the most illogical and childish arguments. some of these posts are so mind blowingly stupid I don't even know how to respond. I have played LoL and sc2 for almost 2 years. GM in sc2, and only 1700 elo in LoL. They require different skill sets, and any mature person can see that both games take a massive amount of skill. LoL is more about decisions and fluidity of team play rather than an individuals mechanics, which can be alot more entertaining to watch. Sometimes the game is overly defensive and both teams are just waiting around, but that happens in sc2 alot as well when those late game scenarios hit and both sides are so afraid of getting destroyed in the fight. Honestly, the people who are actually saying stupid shit like LoL takes no skill or whatever, are just trolling; or they are so delusional they think their opponents are playing dota/sc2 while they are playing LoL.
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On March 15 2012 21:55 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +This IS the case with LoL, pro players literally hit boundaries in trying to actually prove they're above their competition. Not even just pro players we're talking random level 30's play the game nearly correct because their is no strategy the standard cookie-cutter play is proving to be the best play. Where's the spectation in that? Every game is the same because the best play is figured out. That's ludicrous that people have solved the game within two years of serious competition. I promised myself I wouldn't respond to this flamebait of a thread, but I'll pick out just one thing in your long, erroneous argument. The most dominant team on the scene right now (Moscow 5) has not lost a game yet on the tournament circuit. Their playstyle is radically different from everything that has been seen so far, and they are far and above every other pro team in terms of competition. Before they showed up, I might have been inclined to agree with you about the stagnation of the state of the game and cookie-cutter play. If the game has been 'solved' as you say, how should this kind of dominance be possible this far into the pro scene from a relatively new team, using a different style of play?
Funny how they're also a dota team, only further proves my point. Doesn't change the fact that lol is the most stagnant 'competitive' game out there right now. I wouldn't say ANYTHING they've done is radical. It's like a 4 gate to a 3 gate...yeah real different.
LoL is the fastest multiplayer game to become stagnant in video game history. You can keep trying to prove to yourself that the game your really good at is difficult but in the end you're just being ignorant if you feel it's anywhere close to as difficult as just about anything else that human beings compete in. Even magic the gathering.
We can skip the whole silly cop out debate of "blind fanboyism / hate" since it's necessary. I've 300 hours played of the silly game and it's obviously fun. But casual garbage that is trying to be called competitive is a joke. This will only be proven when koreans play 8-10 hours a day for this league.
I just feel sorry for all the avid fans of the lol scene when they realize their game IS stagnant, IS casual, and ISNT worthy for competition.
If your main problem with my post was the sensationalistic wording used in my quote than you've already copped out of this argument anyways and I'm further proven correct.
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EPT
