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On March 15 2012 22:41 shaftofpleasure wrote:Gee, how will WoW-Panda and D3 be when these games come out. I never had any opinions on LoL except for it's childish graphics but seeing these SC2 fanboy tears makes me smile. Blizzard fucked this up royally. Goodluck .. LOL (laugh out loud) Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 22:37 daemir wrote:On March 15 2012 22:12 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 21:58 Miyoshino wrote:
People aren't sayng LoL is a hard game. They are just laughing at those that try to be elitist about SC2. SC2 is as casual as RTS games can get. Target audience includes the mothers of WoW players, according to Browder.
LoL may have sold their soul to esports, Blizzard sold it to something else. That's why RTS is dying in favour of MOBAs.
Korea is trying to keep esports alive. For that they need a popular game. SC2 is a failed game. It failed harder than WC3. So they have to move on. LoL is the obvious game to go with. It had insane stream views outside Korea. And now it apparently exploded in Korea. Two big factors; you can actually go to a PC Bang and just play it. And matches are actually in TV.
SC2 still hasn't overtaken SC BW. And it probably never will. All the rumours about proleague switching to SC2, at this point they will just disband completely. A switch to SC2 won't do much to keep RTS alive much longer.
Also, there is no other RTS game on the horizon that has the potential to replace both SC2 and SC BW.
But no Blizzard is still waging war on OGN and Kespa. Haha. Can't wait till WoW subscriptions start to really collapse fast. I'll be laughing the day Morhaime has to tell his wife and children he is fired. I can respect that post other than the flamebait unnecessary introduction. Why do you think non-LoL players are trashing lol? Hint: It isn't jealously, it doesn't matter which competitive game is the top one. But that's the point. The game should ACTUALLY be competitive. It's played competetively at pro level. It gets the viewers. It has money behind it. It has big organizations behind it. But a random joe Exempt on the forums on TL is telling it's not actually competetive game. Because he says so. God, I wish we could fire all those people in deciding positions at all those companies that somehow made this game that's not competetive, appealing to a large audience AND managed to create a pro scene to it. Damn clueless people they are! Here, have my flamethrower.
Got any extra fuel tanks?
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I just don't understand the excitement from watching it. Quite apart from if it is competitve or not I just don't see the viewing experience as that enjoyable, no matter how many times I've tried to sit and watch it. I get the same impression's from LoL as something like WoW arena, theres just seems like theres no dynamic engagements going on, just a methodical (well organised) slugfest for 40 minutes.
But apparently im in the minority because the viewing figures seem huge.
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Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?
Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it?
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On March 15 2012 22:44 Asymmetric wrote:
I just don't understand the excitement from watching it. Quite apart from if it is competitve or not I just don't see the viewing experience as that enjoyable, no matter how many times I've tried to sit and watch it. I get the same impression's from LoL as something like WoW arena, theres just seems like theres no dynamic engagements going on, just a methodical (well organised) slugfest for 40 minutes.
But apparently im in the minority because the viewing figures seem huge.
Technically you can say the same thing about 1a2a3a-ing deathballs into each other.
I don't get how people think SC2 is more engaging to watch than LoL. I mean, I get how it's tough to follow if you don't know the champions/abilities, so for people who don't play the game it can be kind of inaccessible, but SC2 spectating is inaccessible in a different way.
In LoL, it's easier to get to a level where you CAN understand what's going on in the game by playing/learning the champions and such. In SC2, you may watch what's going on but you won't understand what is exciting about certain plays/micro until you understand the underlying strategy which requires either a decent level of gameplay understanding or the ability to follow the scene for a while.
I'm not trying to bash on SC2, I'm just saying that particular point of comparison seems a little weak to me. I find both games quite enjoyable to watch; though each has slow and boring games, each has incredibly exciting back-and-forth play, each has one-sided stomps at pro level.
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On March 15 2012 09:38 gbooo wrote:http://www.riotgames.com/company/teamLook at the management for Riot games, they're mostly former consultants or financial advisers for major firms. I'm willing to bet Blizzard management is full of game developers first. Now w're seeing the results of different management strategies.
lol that's pretty funny. So former consultants or financial advisers trying to understand the gamer market do a lot better than gamers trying to manage their company like they think consultants or financial advisers would.
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i wonder how much Dota2 success will have in korea.
it's skill requirements are alot harder than LOL at the very top.
also it follows the BW recipe for more hours put in practice ---> more skill.
plus its made by valve...
only downside is its not rly spectator friendly as a game ranges between 25-80 min to play with long downtimes.
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On March 15 2012 23:08 adi_hsd wrote:
i wonder how much Dota2 success will have in korea.
it's skill requirements are alot harder than LOL at the very top.
also it follows the BW recipe for more hours put in practice ---> more skill.
plus its made by valve...
only downside is its not rly spectator friendly as a game ranges between 25-80 min to play with long downtimes.
If LoL is successful, DotA2 should be as well. Neither game is spectator friendly imo, but the average DotA game is shorter than the average LoL game nowadays, and there's more going on. The upside for LoL is that more people know what the heroes do.
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On March 15 2012 22:52 WaveofShadow wrote:
I don't get how people think SC2 is more engaging to watch than LoL. I mean, I get how it's tough to follow if you don't know the champions/abilities, so for people who don't play the game it can be kind of inaccessible, but SC2 spectating is inaccessible in a different way.
In LoL, it's easier to get to a level where you CAN understand what's going on in the game by playing/learning the champions and such. In SC2, you may watch what's going on but you won't understand what is exciting about certain plays/micro until you understand the underlying strategy which requires either a decent level of gameplay understanding or the ability to follow the scene for a while.
I'm not trying to bash on SC2, I'm just saying that particular point of comparison seems a little weak to me. I find both games quite enjoyable to watch; though each has slow and boring games, each has incredibly exciting back-and-forth play, each has one-sided stomps at pro level.
That's not true actually. I have a real example of a five rl friends of mine. None of them didn't even know what sc is until I sent them the mlg live stream link. They all fell in love at the same second and four out of five bought the game and started to play it. I just can't see how can LoL be more interesting to watch then sc2. ( I play LoL ocassionaly, but just to rest my brain from sc2 time-to-time )
Also, I think sc2 is doing pretty good nowadays with tournaments. It's sad to see LoL in the first place in Korea but It's quite normal to see "okeish" free game on the top of esports.
Besides blizzard being a dick about supporting his own game in a different way, they actually did a good job seperating those 3 campaigns, as I think it will keep the game more alive then ever. I trully believe in SC2 going huge in europe/usa.
And what can I say about LoL ? Well, the name itself says everything. =D
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On March 15 2012 23:13 InFdude wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:08 adi_hsd wrote:
i wonder how much Dota2 success will have in korea.
it's skill requirements are alot harder than LOL at the very top.
also it follows the BW recipe for more hours put in practice ---> more skill.
plus its made by valve...
only downside is its not rly spectator friendly as a game ranges between 25-80 min to play with long downtimes. Very interesting post.I mean yeah sure there have been alot of blind fanboy posts about how Dota is harder than Lol but you take it to the next step comparing it to BW. I mean from your post history it's obvious you came to this forum for SC2. How do you people manage to talk so freely about things you have no idea of?That's what I want to know.
I dont get what u mean with your post?
Im playing DOTA2 and SC2 and i consider i know what they are all about.
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There are a lot of posts and arguments I can't address nor does addressing them accomplish my points. I hope everyone will be able to go into reading this post in a rational sense without getting heavily invested in emotions. Emotionality, although impossible to ridden of, can reasonably be lessened to an extent as to help logic true for atleast a decent discussion.
I hope everyone from this point can discuss an argument with avoidance of emotion in an attempt to give a discussion that is useful. At the very least I have accomplished my point of simply throwing my ideas out not to prove that I'm correct, but
merely providing an alternate possibility that some agree with. In the end of this it does not matter whether I'm right or wrong, nor does it matter if any of you are correct. That's not the point of argument.
As thus since there is no emotional outcome of this discussion, and little reason in pointing out semantics and sensationalism of proposed ideas. I'm sure people can point out the common sense behind these ideas and that their overall idea is the obvious, true, and meaningful idea.
And with that, I believe that the problem is:
People blindly believe that it's impossible to reach a skillcap. Which is a highly silly assumption. There is nothing that proves human beings CANNOT perfect something.
The reason why this matters is that the game won't last long enough if isn't difficult enough to be competitive enough to warrant spectation for the game. This hurts the business in esports, thus hurting esports, and possibly ruining something i've grown to love.
I think the majority of problems is that people are viewing the concepts of skill, knowledge, and skillcaps in somewhat incorrect ways.
Skill isn't the result of knowledge, knowledge is just a means as a basic tool to allow access to skill.
And a skillcap is simply the highest possible peak human beings can achieve. In which case you could argue that Broodwar was somewhat "solved" or neared it's skillcap as it's highly unlikely for another human being to achieve a higher level of "skill" than Flash, etc.
A high level of all three result in the ability of the game to become an esport as their is a higher level of interest in spectating. As well, the measureability of all three result in our terminology of the competition of the game.
In which case under these definitions we can definitely measure the difficulty, spectatability, and competitive nature of any video game, including League of Legends. There is no reason saying we CANT argue these points.
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On March 15 2012 22:44 Asymmetric wrote:
I just don't understand the excitement from watching it. Quite apart from if it is competitve or not I just don't see the viewing experience as that enjoyable, no matter how many times I've tried to sit and watch it. I get the same impression's from LoL as something like WoW arena, theres just seems like theres no dynamic engagements going on, just a methodical (well organised) slugfest for 40 minutes.
But apparently im in the minority because the viewing figures seem huge.
Yeah dude, kind of like slugging death balls back at each other. Totally see your point.
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On March 15 2012 22:52 SmoKim wrote:
Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?
Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it?
Because theirs absolutely NOTHING wrong with arguing, it's people like you who get so emotionally involved that ruin the experience for everyone else.
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On March 15 2012 23:20 Exempt. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 22:52 SmoKim wrote:
Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?
Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it? Because theirs absolutely NOTHING wrong with arguing, it's people like you who get so emotionally involved that ruin the experience for everyone else.
Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing.
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On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:20 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 22:52 SmoKim wrote:
Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?
Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it? Because theirs absolutely NOTHING wrong with arguing, it's people like you who get so emotionally involved that ruin the experience for everyone else. Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing.
Actually most LoL players just ask for their game to be recognized as is, while the SC2 forum is throwing shit at it.
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On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:20 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 22:52 SmoKim wrote:
Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?
Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it? Because theirs absolutely NOTHING wrong with arguing, it's people like you who get so emotionally involved that ruin the experience for everyone else. Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing.
yo man you just don't know, your logic is flawed and you are too emotionally involved. stop ruining my experience
(jk)
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On March 15 2012 23:18 Exempt. wrote:
There are a lot of posts and arguments I can't address nor does addressing them accomplish my points. I hope everyone will be able to go into reading this post in a rational sense without getting heavily invested in emotions. Emotionality, although impossible to ridden of, can reasonably be lessened to an extent as to help logic true for atleast a decent discussion.
I hope everyone from this point can discuss an argument with avoidance of emotion in an attempt to give a discussion that is useful. At the very least I have accomplished my point of simply throwing my ideas out not to prove that I'm correct, but
merely providing an alternate possibility that some agree with. In the end of this it does not matter whether I'm right or wrong, nor does it matter if any of you are correct. That's not the point of argument.
As thus since there is no emotional outcome of this discussion, and little reason in pointing out semantics and sensationalism of proposed ideas. I'm sure people can point out the common sense behind these ideas and that their overall idea is the obvious, true, and meaningful idea.
And with that, I believe that the problem is:
People blindly believe that it's impossible to reach a skillcap. Which is a highly silly assumption. There is nothing that proves human beings CANNOT perfect something.
The reason why this matters is that the game won't last long enough if isn't difficult enough to be competitive enough to warrant spectation for the game. This hurts the business in esports, thus hurting esports, and possibly ruining something i've grown to love.
I think the majority of problems is that people are viewing the concepts of skill, knowledge, and skillcaps in somewhat incorrect ways.
Skill isn't the result of knowledge, knowledge is just a means as a basic tool to allow access to skill.
And a skillcap is simply the highest possible peak human beings can achieve. In which case you could argue that Broodwar was somewhat "solved" or neared it's skillcap as it's highly unlikely for another human being to achieve a higher level of "skill" than Flash, etc.
A high level of all three result in the ability of the game to become an esport as their is a higher level of interest in spectating. As well, the measureability of all three result in our terminology of the competition of the game.
In which case under these definitions we can definitely measure the difficulty, spectatability, and competitive nature of any video game, including League of Legends. There is no reason saying we CANT argue these points.
you are really trying too hard man
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On March 15 2012 23:25 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 23:20 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 22:52 SmoKim wrote:
Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?
Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it? Because theirs absolutely NOTHING wrong with arguing, it's people like you who get so emotionally involved that ruin the experience for everyone else. Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing. Actually most LoL players just ask for their game to be recognized as is, while the SC2 forum is throwing shit at it.
That's what I was getting at. 
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As a random aside regarding the questions about LoL as a spectator experience, personally the only reason I play LoL is because it was being broadcast during a break in SC2 games at a tournament I was watching (Dreamhack last year I think) and I enjoyed the game I watched while waiting for SC2 to start again and figured I'd try the game out. If it wasn't for that I doubt I'd ever have bothered as I had no previous experience with dota or anything similar.
There's definitely more of an initial knowledge barrier to watching LoL, but it works quite well as a spectator experience IMO. Not quite as good as SC2 just because there's so much more going on in the game that you can't really see as a spectator though. Like it's quite common in a broadcast of a LoL game that the caster will miss a major event in one lane because they're watching another lane or a jungler or something, just a symptom of it being 5v5 instead of 1v1. Still, it's definitely not unwatchable, at least not for me, and I was an avid follower and player of Starcraft before I ever started playing LoL.
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On March 15 2012 23:28 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:18 Exempt. wrote:
There are a lot of posts and arguments I can't address nor does addressing them accomplish my points. I hope everyone will be able to go into reading this post in a rational sense without getting heavily invested in emotions. Emotionality, although impossible to ridden of, can reasonably be lessened to an extent as to help logic true for atleast a decent discussion.
I hope everyone from this point can discuss an argument with avoidance of emotion in an attempt to give a discussion that is useful. At the very least I have accomplished my point of simply throwing my ideas out not to prove that I'm correct, but
merely providing an alternate possibility that some agree with. In the end of this it does not matter whether I'm right or wrong, nor does it matter if any of you are correct. That's not the point of argument.
As thus since there is no emotional outcome of this discussion, and little reason in pointing out semantics and sensationalism of proposed ideas. I'm sure people can point out the common sense behind these ideas and that their overall idea is the obvious, true, and meaningful idea.
And with that, I believe that the problem is:
People blindly believe that it's impossible to reach a skillcap. Which is a highly silly assumption. There is nothing that proves human beings CANNOT perfect something.
The reason why this matters is that the game won't last long enough if isn't difficult enough to be competitive enough to warrant spectation for the game. This hurts the business in esports, thus hurting esports, and possibly ruining something i've grown to love.
I think the majority of problems is that people are viewing the concepts of skill, knowledge, and skillcaps in somewhat incorrect ways.
Skill isn't the result of knowledge, knowledge is just a means as a basic tool to allow access to skill.
And a skillcap is simply the highest possible peak human beings can achieve. In which case you could argue that Broodwar was somewhat "solved" or neared it's skillcap as it's highly unlikely for another human being to achieve a higher level of "skill" than Flash, etc.
A high level of all three result in the ability of the game to become an esport as their is a higher level of interest in spectating. As well, the measureability of all three result in our terminology of the competition of the game.
In which case under these definitions we can definitely measure the difficulty, spectatability, and competitive nature of any video game, including League of Legends. There is no reason saying we CANT argue these points.
you are really trying too hard man
You think it's a bad thing to constantly try to think, argue, debate? If anything there isn't enough of it. Just people like you who can't remove their emotions and even try to attempt rationality. If people tried harder there most certainly would be less wars. And probably better games.
On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:20 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 22:52 SmoKim wrote:
Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?
Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it? Because theirs absolutely NOTHING wrong with arguing, it's people like you who get so emotionally involved that ruin the experience for everyone else. Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing.
There's nothing wrong with calling the game uncompetitive because whether or not it's competitive or not, or whether you're good or bad at a game or anything else, does. not. matter. It's only flinging shit to you because you care too much about opinions of others about the game.
It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, like I said stop getting so emotionally involved in things that don't matter.
It's like it hurts peoples souls when someone tries to tell them that what they think or believe is wrong. It doesn't fucking matter if you're correct or not. Engaging in the activity is the important part. Fuck.
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EPT
