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Netherlands45349 Posts
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On March 15 2012 23:13 InFdude wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:08 adi_hsd wrote:
i wonder how much Dota2 success will have in korea.
it's skill requirements are alot harder than LOL at the very top.
also it follows the BW recipe for more hours put in practice ---> more skill.
plus its made by valve...
only downside is its not rly spectator friendly as a game ranges between 25-80 min to play with long downtimes. Very interesting post.I mean yeah sure there have been alot of blind fanboy posts about how Dota is harder than Lol but you take it to the next step comparing it to BW. I mean from your post history it's obvious you came to this forum for SC2. How do you people manage to talk so freely about things you have no idea of?That's what I want to know.
Why aggressive? All he said is in BW more practice = better results, and in DotA more practice = better results. He's not wrong about that.
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On March 15 2012 23:36 Exempt. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:28 biology]major wrote:On March 15 2012 23:18 Exempt. wrote:
There are a lot of posts and arguments I can't address nor does addressing them accomplish my points. I hope everyone will be able to go into reading this post in a rational sense without getting heavily invested in emotions. Emotionality, although impossible to ridden of, can reasonably be lessened to an extent as to help logic true for atleast a decent discussion.
I hope everyone from this point can discuss an argument with avoidance of emotion in an attempt to give a discussion that is useful. At the very least I have accomplished my point of simply throwing my ideas out not to prove that I'm correct, but
merely providing an alternate possibility that some agree with. In the end of this it does not matter whether I'm right or wrong, nor does it matter if any of you are correct. That's not the point of argument.
As thus since there is no emotional outcome of this discussion, and little reason in pointing out semantics and sensationalism of proposed ideas. I'm sure people can point out the common sense behind these ideas and that their overall idea is the obvious, true, and meaningful idea.
And with that, I believe that the problem is:
People blindly believe that it's impossible to reach a skillcap. Which is a highly silly assumption. There is nothing that proves human beings CANNOT perfect something.
The reason why this matters is that the game won't last long enough if isn't difficult enough to be competitive enough to warrant spectation for the game. This hurts the business in esports, thus hurting esports, and possibly ruining something i've grown to love.
I think the majority of problems is that people are viewing the concepts of skill, knowledge, and skillcaps in somewhat incorrect ways.
Skill isn't the result of knowledge, knowledge is just a means as a basic tool to allow access to skill.
And a skillcap is simply the highest possible peak human beings can achieve. In which case you could argue that Broodwar was somewhat "solved" or neared it's skillcap as it's highly unlikely for another human being to achieve a higher level of "skill" than Flash, etc.
A high level of all three result in the ability of the game to become an esport as their is a higher level of interest in spectating. As well, the measureability of all three result in our terminology of the competition of the game.
In which case under these definitions we can definitely measure the difficulty, spectatability, and competitive nature of any video game, including League of Legends. There is no reason saying we CANT argue these points.
you are really trying too hard man You think it's a bad thing to constantly try to think, argue, debate? If anything there isn't enough of it. Just people like you who can't remove their emotions and even try to attempt rationality. If people tried harder there most certainly would be less wars. And probably better games. Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 23:20 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 22:52 SmoKim wrote:
Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?
Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it? Because theirs absolutely NOTHING wrong with arguing, it's people like you who get so emotionally involved that ruin the experience for everyone else. Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing. There's nothing wrong with calling the game uncompetitive because whether or not it's competitive or not, or whether you're good or bad at a game or anything else, does. not. matter. It's only flinging shit to you because you care too much about opinions of others about the game. It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, like I said stop getting so emotionally involved in things that don't matter. It's like it hurts peoples souls when someone tries to tell them that what they think or believe is wrong. It doesn't fucking matter if you're correct or not. Engaging in the activity is the important part. Fuck.
So what you're saying is...you like arguing about things that don't really matter and calling a sport not a sport just because you say so and anyone who tells you that what you say is irrelevant and pointless is suddenly a big cry baby who is infringing on your right to argue about useless things.
K. Gotcha.
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On March 15 2012 23:18 Exempt. wrote: People blindly believe that it's impossible to reach a skillcap. Which is a highly silly assumption. There is nothing that proves human beings CANNOT perfect something.
The reason why this matters is that the game won't last long enough if isn't difficult enough to be competitive enough to warrant spectation for the game. This hurts the business in esports, thus hurting esports, and possibly ruining something i've grown to love.
Simpler games are the games that have the highest longevity. Chess, Go, Wrestling, Soccer etc are all games where the premises are extremely self-evident but that have been enjoyed over centuries or even longer.
On March 15 2012 23:18 Exempt. wrote:
And a skillcap is simply the highest possible peak human beings can achieve. In which case you could argue that Broodwar was somewhat "solved" or neared it's skillcap as it's highly unlikely for another human being to achieve a higher level of "skill" than Flash, etc.
Brood Wars is one of the most amazing games of our time, but it's inevitable that it won't have longevity when played competitively because the mechanics are so hard, and it's simple as that. You're right in that it's unlikely for anyone to be significantly more skillful than Flash, but that doesn't mean Flash is perfect, it just means he's the best. Did Flash really solve all the infinite combination of timing/position/units and have perfected every possible responses to every situation? No. Flash is simply the BEST at those things, but because of the inherent difficulty of the game, it's impossible for anyone to challenge him.
On March 15 2012 23:18 Exempt. wrote:
A high level of all three result in the ability of the game to become an esport as their is a higher level of interest in spectating. As well, the measureability of all three result in our terminology of the competition of the game.
In which case under these definitions we can definitely measure the difficulty, spectatability, and competitive nature of any video game, including League of Legends. There is no reason saying we CANT argue these points.
Of course you can measure those things. As I said, the competitiveness of any game is as a result of the following
- How many competitors there are
- Potential for skill improvement (i.e. skill cap)
- Balance
Most video games suffer most from #1, because frankly if not enough people perceive a game as fun or don't think it's worthwhile to play competitively, they won't bother compete.
#2 is fairly straightforward despite what you say. The skillcap in any of these games cannot be achieved, and I find it hard to imagine otherwise. It's like being perfect at Chess, what does that even MEAN? Even if a player could win uncontestedly every single chess game he plays against every single opponent, it still doesn't mean he's reached the skillcap. It just means that he alone stands very far ahead on a line that extends to infinity. Naturally, this doesn't occur in chess, as even the best chess players can be challenged by his peers.
One thing one needs to remember is that a game whose design creates large gaps in skill differentials between across spectrum of players is NOT necessarily a better game by design.
#3 says that for a game to be competitive, the outcome should be decided by skill and not the inherent advantage of a factor that's outside their control. It doesn't mean that a game needs to be perfectly balanced in terms of every character in a fighting game, for instance - more balance in that sense just creates more viable options. However, a game does need to be balanced in the sense that being randomly spawned in 1 location will not give you an obvious advantage compared to being randomly spawned in another.
In this sense, LoL cannot be considered competitive until you've played enough games to acquire all the necessary runes and champions. I tend to agree. The thing is that 1) it's inevitable that players who play enough games to be good enough will inevitably get all the runes they need and 2) they unlock everything for participants in competitive tournaments anyways.
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On March 15 2012 23:36 Exempt. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:28 biology]major wrote:On March 15 2012 23:18 Exempt. wrote:
There are a lot of posts and arguments I can't address nor does addressing them accomplish my points. I hope everyone will be able to go into reading this post in a rational sense without getting heavily invested in emotions. Emotionality, although impossible to ridden of, can reasonably be lessened to an extent as to help logic true for atleast a decent discussion.
I hope everyone from this point can discuss an argument with avoidance of emotion in an attempt to give a discussion that is useful. At the very least I have accomplished my point of simply throwing my ideas out not to prove that I'm correct, but
merely providing an alternate possibility that some agree with. In the end of this it does not matter whether I'm right or wrong, nor does it matter if any of you are correct. That's not the point of argument.
As thus since there is no emotional outcome of this discussion, and little reason in pointing out semantics and sensationalism of proposed ideas. I'm sure people can point out the common sense behind these ideas and that their overall idea is the obvious, true, and meaningful idea.
And with that, I believe that the problem is:
People blindly believe that it's impossible to reach a skillcap. Which is a highly silly assumption. There is nothing that proves human beings CANNOT perfect something.
The reason why this matters is that the game won't last long enough if isn't difficult enough to be competitive enough to warrant spectation for the game. This hurts the business in esports, thus hurting esports, and possibly ruining something i've grown to love.
I think the majority of problems is that people are viewing the concepts of skill, knowledge, and skillcaps in somewhat incorrect ways.
Skill isn't the result of knowledge, knowledge is just a means as a basic tool to allow access to skill.
And a skillcap is simply the highest possible peak human beings can achieve. In which case you could argue that Broodwar was somewhat "solved" or neared it's skillcap as it's highly unlikely for another human being to achieve a higher level of "skill" than Flash, etc.
A high level of all three result in the ability of the game to become an esport as their is a higher level of interest in spectating. As well, the measureability of all three result in our terminology of the competition of the game.
In which case under these definitions we can definitely measure the difficulty, spectatability, and competitive nature of any video game, including League of Legends. There is no reason saying we CANT argue these points.
you are really trying too hard man You think it's a bad thing to constantly try to think, argue, debate? If anything there isn't enough of it. Just people like you who can't remove their emotions and even try to attempt rationality. If people tried harder there most certainly would be less wars. And probably better games. Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 23:20 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 22:52 SmoKim wrote:
Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?
Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it? Because theirs absolutely NOTHING wrong with arguing, it's people like you who get so emotionally involved that ruin the experience for everyone else. Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing. There's nothing wrong with calling the game uncompetitive because whether or not it's competitive or not, or whether you're good or bad at a game or anything else, does. not. matter. It's only flinging shit to you because you care too much about opinions of others about the game. It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, like I said stop getting so emotionally involved in things that don't matter. It's like it hurts peoples souls when someone tries to tell them that what they think or believe is wrong. It doesn't fucking matter if you're correct or not. Engaging in the activity is the important part. Fuck.
Engaging with people involves actively trying to understand their position, not just arguing yours as forcefully as possible. Coming to an understanding is the important part - not arguing for the sake of it.
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On March 15 2012 23:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:36 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 23:28 biology]major wrote:On March 15 2012 23:18 Exempt. wrote:
There are a lot of posts and arguments I can't address nor does addressing them accomplish my points. I hope everyone will be able to go into reading this post in a rational sense without getting heavily invested in emotions. Emotionality, although impossible to ridden of, can reasonably be lessened to an extent as to help logic true for atleast a decent discussion.
I hope everyone from this point can discuss an argument with avoidance of emotion in an attempt to give a discussion that is useful. At the very least I have accomplished my point of simply throwing my ideas out not to prove that I'm correct, but
merely providing an alternate possibility that some agree with. In the end of this it does not matter whether I'm right or wrong, nor does it matter if any of you are correct. That's not the point of argument.
As thus since there is no emotional outcome of this discussion, and little reason in pointing out semantics and sensationalism of proposed ideas. I'm sure people can point out the common sense behind these ideas and that their overall idea is the obvious, true, and meaningful idea.
And with that, I believe that the problem is:
People blindly believe that it's impossible to reach a skillcap. Which is a highly silly assumption. There is nothing that proves human beings CANNOT perfect something.
The reason why this matters is that the game won't last long enough if isn't difficult enough to be competitive enough to warrant spectation for the game. This hurts the business in esports, thus hurting esports, and possibly ruining something i've grown to love.
I think the majority of problems is that people are viewing the concepts of skill, knowledge, and skillcaps in somewhat incorrect ways.
Skill isn't the result of knowledge, knowledge is just a means as a basic tool to allow access to skill.
And a skillcap is simply the highest possible peak human beings can achieve. In which case you could argue that Broodwar was somewhat "solved" or neared it's skillcap as it's highly unlikely for another human being to achieve a higher level of "skill" than Flash, etc.
A high level of all three result in the ability of the game to become an esport as their is a higher level of interest in spectating. As well, the measureability of all three result in our terminology of the competition of the game.
In which case under these definitions we can definitely measure the difficulty, spectatability, and competitive nature of any video game, including League of Legends. There is no reason saying we CANT argue these points.
you are really trying too hard man You think it's a bad thing to constantly try to think, argue, debate? If anything there isn't enough of it. Just people like you who can't remove their emotions and even try to attempt rationality. If people tried harder there most certainly would be less wars. And probably better games. On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 23:20 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 22:52 SmoKim wrote:
Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?
Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it? Because theirs absolutely NOTHING wrong with arguing, it's people like you who get so emotionally involved that ruin the experience for everyone else. Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing. There's nothing wrong with calling the game uncompetitive because whether or not it's competitive or not, or whether you're good or bad at a game or anything else, does. not. matter. It's only flinging shit to you because you care too much about opinions of others about the game. It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, like I said stop getting so emotionally involved in things that don't matter. It's like it hurts peoples souls when someone tries to tell them that what they think or believe is wrong. It doesn't fucking matter if you're correct or not. Engaging in the activity is the important part. Fuck. So what you're saying is...you like arguing about things that don't really matter and calling a sport not a sport just because you say so and anyone who tells you that what you say is irrelevant and pointless is suddenly a big cry baby who is infringing on your right to argue about useless things. K. Gotcha.
You're not trying hard enough to be rational. I atleast use logic and analysis to support my opinions. Not blatant hate.
So what you're saying is...you like bitching about people arguing things whether or not they matter and calling a sport not a sport because of someones rationality and anyone who tells that person that what you say is irrelevant and pointless is suddenly acting irrational who is fringing their rights to argue about uesless things.
K. Gotcha.
@juicyfruit, Chess isn't a simpler game than lol and soccer is way more skilled than lol by far.
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On March 15 2012 23:36 Exempt. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:28 biology]major wrote:On March 15 2012 23:18 Exempt. wrote:
There are a lot of posts and arguments I can't address nor does addressing them accomplish my points. I hope everyone will be able to go into reading this post in a rational sense without getting heavily invested in emotions. Emotionality, although impossible to ridden of, can reasonably be lessened to an extent as to help logic true for atleast a decent discussion.
I hope everyone from this point can discuss an argument with avoidance of emotion in an attempt to give a discussion that is useful. At the very least I have accomplished my point of simply throwing my ideas out not to prove that I'm correct, but
merely providing an alternate possibility that some agree with. In the end of this it does not matter whether I'm right or wrong, nor does it matter if any of you are correct. That's not the point of argument.
As thus since there is no emotional outcome of this discussion, and little reason in pointing out semantics and sensationalism of proposed ideas. I'm sure people can point out the common sense behind these ideas and that their overall idea is the obvious, true, and meaningful idea.
And with that, I believe that the problem is:
People blindly believe that it's impossible to reach a skillcap. Which is a highly silly assumption. There is nothing that proves human beings CANNOT perfect something.
The reason why this matters is that the game won't last long enough if isn't difficult enough to be competitive enough to warrant spectation for the game. This hurts the business in esports, thus hurting esports, and possibly ruining something i've grown to love.
I think the majority of problems is that people are viewing the concepts of skill, knowledge, and skillcaps in somewhat incorrect ways.
Skill isn't the result of knowledge, knowledge is just a means as a basic tool to allow access to skill.
And a skillcap is simply the highest possible peak human beings can achieve. In which case you could argue that Broodwar was somewhat "solved" or neared it's skillcap as it's highly unlikely for another human being to achieve a higher level of "skill" than Flash, etc.
A high level of all three result in the ability of the game to become an esport as their is a higher level of interest in spectating. As well, the measureability of all three result in our terminology of the competition of the game.
In which case under these definitions we can definitely measure the difficulty, spectatability, and competitive nature of any video game, including League of Legends. There is no reason saying we CANT argue these points.
you are really trying too hard man You think it's a bad thing to constantly try to think, argue, debate? If anything there isn't enough of it. Just people like you who can't remove their emotions and even try to attempt rationality. If people tried harder there most certainly would be less wars. And probably better games. Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 23:20 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 22:52 SmoKim wrote:
Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?
Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it? Because theirs absolutely NOTHING wrong with arguing, it's people like you who get so emotionally involved that ruin the experience for everyone else. Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing. There's nothing wrong with calling the game uncompetitive because whether or not it's competitive or not, or whether you're good or bad at a game or anything else, does. not. matter. It's only flinging shit to you because you care too much about opinions of others about the game. It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, like I said stop getting so emotionally involved in things that don't matter. It's like it hurts peoples souls when someone tries to tell them that what they think or believe is wrong. It doesn't fucking matter if you're correct or not. Engaging in the activity is the important part. Fuck.
Wow...
There is nothing to argue about, so why argue? You haven't said one constructive thing at all this entire thread.
I posted this with the expectation that people would find this as good news, that e-sports are growing outside of just SC2. We aren't losing anything, nobody is... Well some people are freaking out over this like somebody is ruining your birthday party by having more people over to their house with a bigger cake 10 blocks away.
I've seen amazing discussions over the years on this site, actually arguing back and forth and not fighting like a bunch of spoiled brats over something that has no effect on them. I'm just going to ask a mod to lock this thread if people keep trying to smear other games and don't have any reasoning besides "LOL DOESN'T MAKE YOU HIT BUTTONS AS FAST SO IT MUST BE EASIER!!"
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On March 15 2012 23:51 Exempt. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 23:36 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 23:28 biology]major wrote:On March 15 2012 23:18 Exempt. wrote:
There are a lot of posts and arguments I can't address nor does addressing them accomplish my points. I hope everyone will be able to go into reading this post in a rational sense without getting heavily invested in emotions. Emotionality, although impossible to ridden of, can reasonably be lessened to an extent as to help logic true for atleast a decent discussion.
I hope everyone from this point can discuss an argument with avoidance of emotion in an attempt to give a discussion that is useful. At the very least I have accomplished my point of simply throwing my ideas out not to prove that I'm correct, but
merely providing an alternate possibility that some agree with. In the end of this it does not matter whether I'm right or wrong, nor does it matter if any of you are correct. That's not the point of argument.
As thus since there is no emotional outcome of this discussion, and little reason in pointing out semantics and sensationalism of proposed ideas. I'm sure people can point out the common sense behind these ideas and that their overall idea is the obvious, true, and meaningful idea.
And with that, I believe that the problem is:
People blindly believe that it's impossible to reach a skillcap. Which is a highly silly assumption. There is nothing that proves human beings CANNOT perfect something.
The reason why this matters is that the game won't last long enough if isn't difficult enough to be competitive enough to warrant spectation for the game. This hurts the business in esports, thus hurting esports, and possibly ruining something i've grown to love.
I think the majority of problems is that people are viewing the concepts of skill, knowledge, and skillcaps in somewhat incorrect ways.
Skill isn't the result of knowledge, knowledge is just a means as a basic tool to allow access to skill.
And a skillcap is simply the highest possible peak human beings can achieve. In which case you could argue that Broodwar was somewhat "solved" or neared it's skillcap as it's highly unlikely for another human being to achieve a higher level of "skill" than Flash, etc.
A high level of all three result in the ability of the game to become an esport as their is a higher level of interest in spectating. As well, the measureability of all three result in our terminology of the competition of the game.
In which case under these definitions we can definitely measure the difficulty, spectatability, and competitive nature of any video game, including League of Legends. There is no reason saying we CANT argue these points.
you are really trying too hard man You think it's a bad thing to constantly try to think, argue, debate? If anything there isn't enough of it. Just people like you who can't remove their emotions and even try to attempt rationality. If people tried harder there most certainly would be less wars. And probably better games. On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 23:20 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 22:52 SmoKim wrote:
Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?
Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it? Because theirs absolutely NOTHING wrong with arguing, it's people like you who get so emotionally involved that ruin the experience for everyone else. Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing. There's nothing wrong with calling the game uncompetitive because whether or not it's competitive or not, or whether you're good or bad at a game or anything else, does. not. matter. It's only flinging shit to you because you care too much about opinions of others about the game. It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, like I said stop getting so emotionally involved in things that don't matter. It's like it hurts peoples souls when someone tries to tell them that what they think or believe is wrong. It doesn't fucking matter if you're correct or not. Engaging in the activity is the important part. Fuck. So what you're saying is...you like arguing about things that don't really matter and calling a sport not a sport just because you say so and anyone who tells you that what you say is irrelevant and pointless is suddenly a big cry baby who is infringing on your right to argue about useless things. K. Gotcha. You're not trying hard enough to be rational. I atleast use logic and analysis to support my opinions. Not blatant hate. So what you're saying is...you like bitching about people arguing things whether or not they matter and calling a sport not a sport because of someones rationality and anyone who tells that person that what you say is irrelevant and pointless is suddenly acting irrational who is fringing their rights to argue about uesless things. K. Gotcha.
I just don't get why you're arguing this. People play games and if they do it well enough, then the game can be taken to a professional level, and I don't give a shit about e-sports, expansion or not. I just like playing games and watching people play games.
Like, I can go on a rant about how SC2 lacks skill and is so bad compared to BW that it should be dropped as an e-sport and everyone should flock back to BW because only real men play good games, but of course, then I'd get a bunch of random emotional responses and the discussion is inherently pointless. Things are as they are because they are, and people need to stop throwing out arbitrary terminology like "skill" to try to justify their position.
In other words, fuck e-sports. I like games, and that's what this site should have always been about.
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On March 15 2012 23:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:36 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 23:28 biology]major wrote:On March 15 2012 23:18 Exempt. wrote:
There are a lot of posts and arguments I can't address nor does addressing them accomplish my points. I hope everyone will be able to go into reading this post in a rational sense without getting heavily invested in emotions. Emotionality, although impossible to ridden of, can reasonably be lessened to an extent as to help logic true for atleast a decent discussion.
I hope everyone from this point can discuss an argument with avoidance of emotion in an attempt to give a discussion that is useful. At the very least I have accomplished my point of simply throwing my ideas out not to prove that I'm correct, but
merely providing an alternate possibility that some agree with. In the end of this it does not matter whether I'm right or wrong, nor does it matter if any of you are correct. That's not the point of argument.
As thus since there is no emotional outcome of this discussion, and little reason in pointing out semantics and sensationalism of proposed ideas. I'm sure people can point out the common sense behind these ideas and that their overall idea is the obvious, true, and meaningful idea.
And with that, I believe that the problem is:
People blindly believe that it's impossible to reach a skillcap. Which is a highly silly assumption. There is nothing that proves human beings CANNOT perfect something.
The reason why this matters is that the game won't last long enough if isn't difficult enough to be competitive enough to warrant spectation for the game. This hurts the business in esports, thus hurting esports, and possibly ruining something i've grown to love.
I think the majority of problems is that people are viewing the concepts of skill, knowledge, and skillcaps in somewhat incorrect ways.
Skill isn't the result of knowledge, knowledge is just a means as a basic tool to allow access to skill.
And a skillcap is simply the highest possible peak human beings can achieve. In which case you could argue that Broodwar was somewhat "solved" or neared it's skillcap as it's highly unlikely for another human being to achieve a higher level of "skill" than Flash, etc.
A high level of all three result in the ability of the game to become an esport as their is a higher level of interest in spectating. As well, the measureability of all three result in our terminology of the competition of the game.
In which case under these definitions we can definitely measure the difficulty, spectatability, and competitive nature of any video game, including League of Legends. There is no reason saying we CANT argue these points.
you are really trying too hard man You think it's a bad thing to constantly try to think, argue, debate? If anything there isn't enough of it. Just people like you who can't remove their emotions and even try to attempt rationality. If people tried harder there most certainly would be less wars. And probably better games. On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 23:20 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 22:52 SmoKim wrote:
Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?
Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it? Because theirs absolutely NOTHING wrong with arguing, it's people like you who get so emotionally involved that ruin the experience for everyone else. Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing. There's nothing wrong with calling the game uncompetitive because whether or not it's competitive or not, or whether you're good or bad at a game or anything else, does. not. matter. It's only flinging shit to you because you care too much about opinions of others about the game. It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, like I said stop getting so emotionally involved in things that don't matter. It's like it hurts peoples souls when someone tries to tell them that what they think or believe is wrong. It doesn't fucking matter if you're correct or not. Engaging in the activity is the important part. Fuck. So what you're saying is...you like arguing about things that don't really matter and calling a sport not a sport just because you say so and anyone who tells you that what you say is irrelevant and pointless is suddenly a big cry baby who is infringing on your right to argue about useless things. K. Gotcha.
This is getting annoying.
The things matter. He explained why they matter. I can't wrap my head around the world view some people have that says we should never argue what's better for a platform we all love.
Imagine the a football league closing the competition, running a bowling competition instead. If the viewers wanted that, you couldn't argue, but anybody with a clue would understand that it's not going to turn out well for them in the near future. The difference being that esports are so underdeveloped, that not all people understand that some games are indeed more difficult. This is the reason we must understand what games are more difficult... And unfortunately I have not the time that I had previously to actually argue on the merits of the game.
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On March 15 2012 23:58 son1dow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 23:36 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 23:28 biology]major wrote:On March 15 2012 23:18 Exempt. wrote:
There are a lot of posts and arguments I can't address nor does addressing them accomplish my points. I hope everyone will be able to go into reading this post in a rational sense without getting heavily invested in emotions. Emotionality, although impossible to ridden of, can reasonably be lessened to an extent as to help logic true for atleast a decent discussion.
I hope everyone from this point can discuss an argument with avoidance of emotion in an attempt to give a discussion that is useful. At the very least I have accomplished my point of simply throwing my ideas out not to prove that I'm correct, but
merely providing an alternate possibility that some agree with. In the end of this it does not matter whether I'm right or wrong, nor does it matter if any of you are correct. That's not the point of argument.
As thus since there is no emotional outcome of this discussion, and little reason in pointing out semantics and sensationalism of proposed ideas. I'm sure people can point out the common sense behind these ideas and that their overall idea is the obvious, true, and meaningful idea.
And with that, I believe that the problem is:
People blindly believe that it's impossible to reach a skillcap. Which is a highly silly assumption. There is nothing that proves human beings CANNOT perfect something.
The reason why this matters is that the game won't last long enough if isn't difficult enough to be competitive enough to warrant spectation for the game. This hurts the business in esports, thus hurting esports, and possibly ruining something i've grown to love.
I think the majority of problems is that people are viewing the concepts of skill, knowledge, and skillcaps in somewhat incorrect ways.
Skill isn't the result of knowledge, knowledge is just a means as a basic tool to allow access to skill.
And a skillcap is simply the highest possible peak human beings can achieve. In which case you could argue that Broodwar was somewhat "solved" or neared it's skillcap as it's highly unlikely for another human being to achieve a higher level of "skill" than Flash, etc.
A high level of all three result in the ability of the game to become an esport as their is a higher level of interest in spectating. As well, the measureability of all three result in our terminology of the competition of the game.
In which case under these definitions we can definitely measure the difficulty, spectatability, and competitive nature of any video game, including League of Legends. There is no reason saying we CANT argue these points.
you are really trying too hard man You think it's a bad thing to constantly try to think, argue, debate? If anything there isn't enough of it. Just people like you who can't remove their emotions and even try to attempt rationality. If people tried harder there most certainly would be less wars. And probably better games. On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 23:20 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 22:52 SmoKim wrote:
Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?
Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it? Because theirs absolutely NOTHING wrong with arguing, it's people like you who get so emotionally involved that ruin the experience for everyone else. Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing. There's nothing wrong with calling the game uncompetitive because whether or not it's competitive or not, or whether you're good or bad at a game or anything else, does. not. matter. It's only flinging shit to you because you care too much about opinions of others about the game. It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, like I said stop getting so emotionally involved in things that don't matter. It's like it hurts peoples souls when someone tries to tell them that what they think or believe is wrong. It doesn't fucking matter if you're correct or not. Engaging in the activity is the important part. Fuck. So what you're saying is...you like arguing about things that don't really matter and calling a sport not a sport just because you say so and anyone who tells you that what you say is irrelevant and pointless is suddenly a big cry baby who is infringing on your right to argue about useless things. K. Gotcha. This is getting annoying. The things matter. He explained why they matter. I can't wrap my head around the world view some people have that says we should never argue what's better for a platform we all love. Imagine the a football league closing the competition, running a bowling competition instead. If the viewers wanted that, you couldn't argue, but anybody with a clue would understand that it's not going to turn out well for them in the near future. The difference being that esports are so underdeveloped, that not all people understand that some games are indeed more difficult. This is the reason we must understand what games are more difficult... And unfortunately I have not the time that I had previously to actually argue on the merits of the game.
Right, because LoL getting more attention in Korea automatically means that SC2 is closing down.
Oh, and why is this LoL's fault? Blame the fact that SC2 is a colossal failure in Korea because maybe...I don't know....people don't like it there?
What point are you guys trying to make. Everything has just been nonsense sensationalism or downright dumb comments, bringing up stupid ideas that somehow is supposed to persuade us that people shouldn't be liking this type of game.
Here, let me try it too.
Hey guys. I can fucking click really really fast. People should like me playing my game. \o/
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Lol chess, go and football aren't anywhere near simple games. Chess stands out here because it will probably be solved in our lifetimes. But go and football are extremely complex games. The geometry and physics top players like Messi and Ronaldo pull off are just beyond the ability of almost all of us, period. We can never do it ever. Go several magnitudes more complex than chess.
And this points out your exact fallacy. The rules of go are actually simples than chess. Go only has 1 type of piece. Chess has many different ones and special rules. Go is all the same all the time. Yet go is much much more complex.
So the idea that the elegance of the premice of a game says something about the complexity of playing such a game is utterly false. The two have basically nothing to do with each other.
Simple games are tic tac toe, rock paper scissors, and to lesser extent backgammon and checkers. Those are all solved games. The first two have an extremely simple solution you can explain to a kid in 10 seconds. The other two are solved but basically unmemorable by humans.
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On March 15 2012 23:40 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:13 InFdude wrote:On March 15 2012 23:08 adi_hsd wrote:
i wonder how much Dota2 success will have in korea.
it's skill requirements are alot harder than LOL at the very top.
also it follows the BW recipe for more hours put in practice ---> more skill.
plus its made by valve...
only downside is its not rly spectator friendly as a game ranges between 25-80 min to play with long downtimes. Very interesting post.I mean yeah sure there have been alot of blind fanboy posts about how Dota is harder than Lol but you take it to the next step comparing it to BW. I mean from your post history it's obvious you came to this forum for SC2. How do you people manage to talk so freely about things you have no idea of?That's what I want to know. Why aggressive? All he said is in BW more practice = better results, and in DotA more practice = better results. He's not wrong about that.
Dota would be a really sick game if it was casted by Koreans, it produces a lot more wtf epic moments and greater comebacks.
But then again LoL has plague.
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On March 15 2012 08:37 Hinanawi wrote:
SC2 fans who constantly harp on BW for being 'outdated' have no right to call LoL casual. SC2 is casual as fuck. You dug this grave with your 'e-sports' schenanigans, now lie in it.
:D so true so true
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On March 15 2012 23:40 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:13 InFdude wrote:On March 15 2012 23:08 adi_hsd wrote:
i wonder how much Dota2 success will have in korea.
it's skill requirements are alot harder than LOL at the very top.
also it follows the BW recipe for more hours put in practice ---> more skill.
plus its made by valve...
only downside is its not rly spectator friendly as a game ranges between 25-80 min to play with long downtimes. Very interesting post.I mean yeah sure there have been alot of blind fanboy posts about how Dota is harder than Lol but you take it to the next step comparing it to BW. I mean from your post history it's obvious you came to this forum for SC2. How do you people manage to talk so freely about things you have no idea of?That's what I want to know. Why aggressive? All he said is in BW more practice = better results, and in DotA more practice = better results. He's not wrong about that.
So I guess what we can take away from these posts is more practice = better results...
Somehow when the post includes lines like these "it's skill requirements are alot harder than LOL at the very top." I think his agenda is to passively attack LoL rather promote Dota.
Gosh he really does such a good job hiding the the attack on LoL in his praise for Dota too, except for the part where he posted in a LoL thread anyway.
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This thread really shows the average intelligence of the common poster here on Teamliquid.
Flamebaiting, obviously trolling, and generally falling for said trolls.
Has anybody considered the fact that all of these games could co-exist?
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On March 15 2012 23:51 Exempt. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 23:36 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 23:28 biology]major wrote:On March 15 2012 23:18 Exempt. wrote:
There are a lot of posts and arguments I can't address nor does addressing them accomplish my points. I hope everyone will be able to go into reading this post in a rational sense without getting heavily invested in emotions. Emotionality, although impossible to ridden of, can reasonably be lessened to an extent as to help logic true for atleast a decent discussion.
I hope everyone from this point can discuss an argument with avoidance of emotion in an attempt to give a discussion that is useful. At the very least I have accomplished my point of simply throwing my ideas out not to prove that I'm correct, but
merely providing an alternate possibility that some agree with. In the end of this it does not matter whether I'm right or wrong, nor does it matter if any of you are correct. That's not the point of argument.
As thus since there is no emotional outcome of this discussion, and little reason in pointing out semantics and sensationalism of proposed ideas. I'm sure people can point out the common sense behind these ideas and that their overall idea is the obvious, true, and meaningful idea.
And with that, I believe that the problem is:
People blindly believe that it's impossible to reach a skillcap. Which is a highly silly assumption. There is nothing that proves human beings CANNOT perfect something.
The reason why this matters is that the game won't last long enough if isn't difficult enough to be competitive enough to warrant spectation for the game. This hurts the business in esports, thus hurting esports, and possibly ruining something i've grown to love.
I think the majority of problems is that people are viewing the concepts of skill, knowledge, and skillcaps in somewhat incorrect ways.
Skill isn't the result of knowledge, knowledge is just a means as a basic tool to allow access to skill.
And a skillcap is simply the highest possible peak human beings can achieve. In which case you could argue that Broodwar was somewhat "solved" or neared it's skillcap as it's highly unlikely for another human being to achieve a higher level of "skill" than Flash, etc.
A high level of all three result in the ability of the game to become an esport as their is a higher level of interest in spectating. As well, the measureability of all three result in our terminology of the competition of the game.
In which case under these definitions we can definitely measure the difficulty, spectatability, and competitive nature of any video game, including League of Legends. There is no reason saying we CANT argue these points.
you are really trying too hard man You think it's a bad thing to constantly try to think, argue, debate? If anything there isn't enough of it. Just people like you who can't remove their emotions and even try to attempt rationality. If people tried harder there most certainly would be less wars. And probably better games. On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 23:20 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 22:52 SmoKim wrote:
Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?
Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it? Because theirs absolutely NOTHING wrong with arguing, it's people like you who get so emotionally involved that ruin the experience for everyone else. Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing. There's nothing wrong with calling the game uncompetitive because whether or not it's competitive or not, or whether you're good or bad at a game or anything else, does. not. matter. It's only flinging shit to you because you care too much about opinions of others about the game. It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, like I said stop getting so emotionally involved in things that don't matter. It's like it hurts peoples souls when someone tries to tell them that what they think or believe is wrong. It doesn't fucking matter if you're correct or not. Engaging in the activity is the important part. Fuck. So what you're saying is...you like arguing about things that don't really matter and calling a sport not a sport just because you say so and anyone who tells you that what you say is irrelevant and pointless is suddenly a big cry baby who is infringing on your right to argue about useless things. K. Gotcha. @juicyfruit, Chess isn't a simpler game than lol and soccer is way more skilled than lol by far.
Their designs are simple. The number of possible combinations makes it so that they're not simple to master. It's not very hard to see that soccer and chess are by design much simpler than the video games we're talking about. Kicking the ball into a net is the one move you can make, and yet there's a limitless methods of execution, not to mention the athleticism required to carry it out.
On March 16 2012 00:01 Miyoshino wrote:
Lol chess, go and football aren't anywhere near simple games. Chess stands out here because it will probably be solved in our lifetimes. But go and football are extremely complex games. The geometry and physics top players like Messi and Ronaldo pull off are just beyond the ability of almost all of us, period. We can never do it ever. Go several magnitudes more complex than chess.
And this points out your exact fallacy. The rules of go are actually simples than chess. Go only has 1 type of piece. Chess has many different ones and special rules. Go is all the same all the time. Yet go is much much more complex.
So the idea that the elegance of the premice of a game says something about the complexity of playing such a game is utterly false. The two have basically nothing to do with each other.
Simple games are tic tac toe, rock paper scissors, and to lesser extent backgammon and checkers. Those are all solved games. The first two have an extremely simple solution you can explain to a kid in 10 seconds. The other two are solved but basically unmemorable by humans.
I'd give you the same reply as the above. I don't think we disagree, it's just that you misinterpret what I mean by simple. Soccer/Go/Chess are all games where the RULEBOOK can be 1 page long but the STRATEGY books can fill dozens of libraries. When I talk about them being simple, I mean their rules are simple, and in essence, arguing that the notion of LoL having less "rules" than dota making it an easier game, is false.
People like to bring up the Tic-Tac-Toe argument against this a lot but that just takes the conclusion to the far extreme. There's nothing inherently different about tic-tac-toe vs go except the number of possible combinations from the very limited moves that you can make. A race of super-intelligent aliens might perceive Go as being as easy as TTT and yet from our point of view they're world's apart.
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I like the thread because
- the name of the game or rather the shortcut obviously has direct influence on how 'good' the game is ( something like rolf or LoL has to be a bad game )
- a game that doesn't cost money has to be bad
- you can prove the quality or difficulty of a game by just saying something or tinkering charts or tables
- Sc2 will never be played again because Koreans will only play LoL from now on and there is only place for one game to appear in eSports
- not only comparing two eSports games of totally different genres makes sense but also comparing them to real life sports
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On March 16 2012 00:05 Pulselol wrote:
This thread really shows the average intelligence of the common poster here on Teamliquid.
Flamebaiting, obviously trolling, and generally falling for said trolls.
Has anybody considered the fact that all of these games could co-exist?
Stop putting stupid utopian thoughts in our heads. Who the hell could ever possibly think that?
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On March 15 2012 23:53 Rorance wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:36 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 23:28 biology]major wrote:On March 15 2012 23:18 Exempt. wrote:
There are a lot of posts and arguments I can't address nor does addressing them accomplish my points. I hope everyone will be able to go into reading this post in a rational sense without getting heavily invested in emotions. Emotionality, although impossible to ridden of, can reasonably be lessened to an extent as to help logic true for atleast a decent discussion.
I hope everyone from this point can discuss an argument with avoidance of emotion in an attempt to give a discussion that is useful. At the very least I have accomplished my point of simply throwing my ideas out not to prove that I'm correct, but
merely providing an alternate possibility that some agree with. In the end of this it does not matter whether I'm right or wrong, nor does it matter if any of you are correct. That's not the point of argument.
As thus since there is no emotional outcome of this discussion, and little reason in pointing out semantics and sensationalism of proposed ideas. I'm sure people can point out the common sense behind these ideas and that their overall idea is the obvious, true, and meaningful idea.
And with that, I believe that the problem is:
People blindly believe that it's impossible to reach a skillcap. Which is a highly silly assumption. There is nothing that proves human beings CANNOT perfect something.
The reason why this matters is that the game won't last long enough if isn't difficult enough to be competitive enough to warrant spectation for the game. This hurts the business in esports, thus hurting esports, and possibly ruining something i've grown to love.
I think the majority of problems is that people are viewing the concepts of skill, knowledge, and skillcaps in somewhat incorrect ways.
Skill isn't the result of knowledge, knowledge is just a means as a basic tool to allow access to skill.
And a skillcap is simply the highest possible peak human beings can achieve. In which case you could argue that Broodwar was somewhat "solved" or neared it's skillcap as it's highly unlikely for another human being to achieve a higher level of "skill" than Flash, etc.
A high level of all three result in the ability of the game to become an esport as their is a higher level of interest in spectating. As well, the measureability of all three result in our terminology of the competition of the game.
In which case under these definitions we can definitely measure the difficulty, spectatability, and competitive nature of any video game, including League of Legends. There is no reason saying we CANT argue these points.
you are really trying too hard man You think it's a bad thing to constantly try to think, argue, debate? If anything there isn't enough of it. Just people like you who can't remove their emotions and even try to attempt rationality. If people tried harder there most certainly would be less wars. And probably better games. On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 23:20 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 22:52 SmoKim wrote:
Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?
Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it? Because theirs absolutely NOTHING wrong with arguing, it's people like you who get so emotionally involved that ruin the experience for everyone else. Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing. There's nothing wrong with calling the game uncompetitive because whether or not it's competitive or not, or whether you're good or bad at a game or anything else, does. not. matter. It's only flinging shit to you because you care too much about opinions of others about the game. It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, like I said stop getting so emotionally involved in things that don't matter. It's like it hurts peoples souls when someone tries to tell them that what they think or believe is wrong. It doesn't fucking matter if you're correct or not. Engaging in the activity is the important part. Fuck. Wow... There is nothing to argue about, so why argue? You haven't said one constructive thing at all this entire thread. I posted this with the expectation that people would find this as good news, that e-sports are growing outside of just SC2. We aren't losing anything, nobody is... Well some people are freaking out over this like somebody is ruining your birthday party by having more people over to their house with a bigger cake 10 blocks away. I've seen amazing discussions over the years on this site, actually arguing back and forth and not fighting like a bunch of spoiled brats over something that has no effect on them. I'm just going to ask a mod to lock this thread if people keep trying to smear other games and don't have any reasoning besides "LOL DOESN'T MAKE YOU HIT BUTTONS AS FAST SO IT MUST BE EASIER!!"
Well because it's just your opinion whether or not there is something to argue about. If you don't feel it's worth arguing then the obvious decision is to not engage in argument. You flinging shit because some people want to argue doesn't make you any better than anyone else.
The constructive argument I placed was that I felt LoL was bad for esports as it didn't support competition that would last many years to come for reasons such as lack of differentiating skill and what not. My conclusive thesis was that because of this lack of competition LoL would just hurt esports in the long run. Not help it.
The problem is people didn't go with retorting my opinion. They shit talked it. All that needed to be done with this argument was
someone to post what juicyfruit said recently in his opinions as to why lol is worth competition and thus esports by talking about:
- How many competitors there are
- Potential for skill improvement (i.e. skill cap)
- Balance
if someone simply, academically brang those points up to disprove my opinions on lol as a competitive game I would of left the discussion more open-minded.
But no, that didn't happen, because people can't think in a logic fashion, they get too clouded by their emotions because of the fact that I was arguing something that they certainly didn't believe in.
Here's one to hoping public school systems slowly improve / college is stressed more in society so that some day a larger portion of the human race can participate in a scholarly debate that so many simply aren't prepared to do now.
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On March 16 2012 00:04 DonKey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 23:40 Cel.erity wrote:On March 15 2012 23:13 InFdude wrote:On March 15 2012 23:08 adi_hsd wrote:
i wonder how much Dota2 success will have in korea.
it's skill requirements are alot harder than LOL at the very top.
also it follows the BW recipe for more hours put in practice ---> more skill.
plus its made by valve...
only downside is its not rly spectator friendly as a game ranges between 25-80 min to play with long downtimes. Very interesting post.I mean yeah sure there have been alot of blind fanboy posts about how Dota is harder than Lol but you take it to the next step comparing it to BW. I mean from your post history it's obvious you came to this forum for SC2. How do you people manage to talk so freely about things you have no idea of?That's what I want to know. Why aggressive? All he said is in BW more practice = better results, and in DotA more practice = better results. He's not wrong about that. So I guess what we can take away from these posts is more practice = better results... Somehow when the post includes lines like these "it's skill requirements are alot harder than LOL at the very top." I think his agenda is to passively attack LoL rather promote Dota. Gosh he really does such a good job hiding the the attack on LoL in his praise for Dota too, except for the part where he posted in a LoL thread anyway.
This is not a "LoL" thread, it's a "Popularity chart in korea" thread.
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EPT
