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LoL takes #1 E-sport spot in Korea - Page 77

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Blasterion
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
China10272 Posts
March 15 2012 15:34 GMT
#1521
On March 16 2012 00:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2012 00:29 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Shiragaku wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Blasterion wrote:
Screw LoL and sc2 real men play Mahjong. Mahjong is where the money is at.

NOOOOO~ Shogi is the man's sport. The first board game with RPG elements!

Lol shogi. Chinese chess yo.


I like fake board games.

Pai Sho from Avatar anyone?

Screw pai sho real men play real games.like Mahjong
[TLNY]Mahjong Club Thread
Zergneedsfood
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10671 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-15 15:36:53
March 15 2012 15:36 GMT
#1522
On March 16 2012 00:34 Blasterion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2012 00:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:29 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Shiragaku wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Blasterion wrote:
Screw LoL and sc2 real men play Mahjong. Mahjong is where the money is at.

NOOOOO~ Shogi is the man's sport. The first board game with RPG elements!

Lol shogi. Chinese chess yo.


I like fake board games.

Pai Sho from Avatar anyone?

Screw pai sho real men play real games.like Mahjong


Wow. You did not just diss Pai Sho.

Pai Sho takes skill. Mahjong is so easy. Low skill cap, it's fun to play, but it's just horrible to watch. There also too many tiles but you only have like....three actions. You just take tiles and you flip them around.

Gosh. Terrible player. Go screw yourself and cry in a corner for killing e-sports.
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ Make a contract with me and join TLADT | Onodera isn't actually a girl, she's just a doormat you walk over to get to the girl. - Numy 2015
DonKey_
Profile Joined May 2010
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
March 15 2012 15:36 GMT
#1523
On March 16 2012 00:28 Exempt. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2012 00:16 Two_DoWn wrote:
I think my favorite conclusion from this thread is that while playing lots of LoL doesnt actually make you better at the game. Cuz, you know, everyone who comes in and plays a single game is instantly a tournament calibur player.


The real conclusion is everyone who plays lots and lots of LoL at some point won't make them better at the game in which case there will be no way to determine who the best truly is.

This conclusion is countered by the fact that this opinion can't exactly be proven correct and thus for now can't be proven incorrect, thus the game can't be considered uncompetitive until proven true, in which in that situation is considered an esports game among other various factors such as number of competitors and other various issues.

In which case said first conclusion is proven false until professional play proves it to be true in which case the prediction in the first place proves the first conclusion true.

If you follow that, hard to say since your post was pretty off base.

The real conclusion is that there exist teams that consistently place at the top of tournaments within LoL and do so by playing more and understanding the game to a higher degree. I have to revert back to what a wise man said in this thread previously. "More practice = better results"
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
Blasterion
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
China10272 Posts
March 15 2012 15:37 GMT
#1524
On March 16 2012 00:36 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2012 00:34 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:29 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Shiragaku wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Blasterion wrote:
Screw LoL and sc2 real men play Mahjong. Mahjong is where the money is at.

NOOOOO~ Shogi is the man's sport. The first board game with RPG elements!

Lol shogi. Chinese chess yo.


I like fake board games.

Pai Sho from Avatar anyone?

Screw pai sho real men play real games.like Mahjong


Wow. You did not just diss Pai Sho.

Pai Sho takes skill. Mahjong is so easy. Low skill cap, it's fun to play, but it's just horrible to watch. There also too many tiles but you only have like....three actions. You just take tiles and you flip them around.

Gosh. Terrible player. Go screw yourself and cry in a corner for killing e-sports.

6 points.
[TLNY]Mahjong Club Thread
Zergneedsfood
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10671 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-15 15:38:34
March 15 2012 15:38 GMT
#1525
On March 16 2012 00:37 Blasterion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2012 00:36 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:34 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:29 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Shiragaku wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Blasterion wrote:
Screw LoL and sc2 real men play Mahjong. Mahjong is where the money is at.

NOOOOO~ Shogi is the man's sport. The first board game with RPG elements!

Lol shogi. Chinese chess yo.


I like fake board games.

Pai Sho from Avatar anyone?

Screw pai sho real men play real games.like Mahjong


Wow. You did not just diss Pai Sho.

Pai Sho takes skill. Mahjong is so easy. Low skill cap, it's fun to play, but it's just horrible to watch. There also too many tiles but you only have like....three actions. You just take tiles and you flip them around.

Gosh. Terrible player. Go screw yourself and cry in a corner for killing e-sports.

6 points.


Pssshh. You just got lucky. Probably hacked or something. Classic lack of professionalism these mahjong players. Bad for e-sports imo
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ Make a contract with me and join TLADT | Onodera isn't actually a girl, she's just a doormat you walk over to get to the girl. - Numy 2015
Sawamura
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Malaysia7602 Posts
March 15 2012 15:38 GMT
#1526
On March 16 2012 00:36 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2012 00:34 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:29 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Shiragaku wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Blasterion wrote:
Screw LoL and sc2 real men play Mahjong. Mahjong is where the money is at.

NOOOOO~ Shogi is the man's sport. The first board game with RPG elements!

Lol shogi. Chinese chess yo.


I like fake board games.

Pai Sho from Avatar anyone?

Screw pai sho real men play real games.like Mahjong


Wow. You did not just diss Pai Sho.

Pai Sho takes skill. Mahjong is so easy. Low skill cap, it's fun to play, but it's just horrible to watch. There also too many tiles but you only have like....three actions. You just take tiles and you flip them around.

Gosh. Terrible player. Go screw yourself and cry in a corner for killing e-sports.


Shouldn't we all play GO ? It's a much more harder game and much more recognised like bw ...... oopps.
BW/KT Forever R.I.P KT.Violet dearly missed ..
Zergneedsfood
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10671 Posts
March 15 2012 15:39 GMT
#1527
On March 16 2012 00:38 Sawamura wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2012 00:36 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:34 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:29 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Shiragaku wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Blasterion wrote:
Screw LoL and sc2 real men play Mahjong. Mahjong is where the money is at.

NOOOOO~ Shogi is the man's sport. The first board game with RPG elements!

Lol shogi. Chinese chess yo.


I like fake board games.

Pai Sho from Avatar anyone?

Screw pai sho real men play real games.like Mahjong


Wow. You did not just diss Pai Sho.

Pai Sho takes skill. Mahjong is so easy. Low skill cap, it's fun to play, but it's just horrible to watch. There also too many tiles but you only have like....three actions. You just take tiles and you flip them around.

Gosh. Terrible player. Go screw yourself and cry in a corner for killing e-sports.


Shouldn't we all play GO ? It's a much more harder game and much more recognised like bw ...... oopps.


I tried GO once. Holy crap I was so bad at it.

But then again I was little...maybe I should pick it up some day.
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ Make a contract with me and join TLADT | Onodera isn't actually a girl, she's just a doormat you walk over to get to the girl. - Numy 2015
daemir
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland8662 Posts
March 15 2012 15:39 GMT
#1528
On March 16 2012 00:06 Exempt. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2012 23:53 Rorance wrote:
On March 15 2012 23:36 Exempt. wrote:
On March 15 2012 23:28 biology]major wrote:
On March 15 2012 23:18 Exempt. wrote:
There are a lot of posts and arguments I can't address nor does addressing them accomplish my points. I hope everyone will be able to go into reading this post in a rational sense without getting heavily invested in emotions. Emotionality, although impossible to ridden of, can reasonably be lessened to an extent as to help logic true for atleast a decent discussion.

I hope everyone from this point can discuss an argument with avoidance of emotion in an attempt to give a discussion that is useful. At the very least I have accomplished my point of simply throwing my ideas out not to prove that I'm correct, but
merely providing an alternate possibility that some agree with. In the end of this it does not matter whether I'm right or wrong, nor does it matter if any of you are correct. That's not the point of argument.

As thus since there is no emotional outcome of this discussion, and little reason in pointing out semantics and sensationalism of proposed ideas. I'm sure people can point out the common sense behind these ideas and that their overall idea is the obvious, true, and meaningful idea.

And with that, I believe that the problem is:

People blindly believe that it's impossible to reach a skillcap. Which is a highly silly assumption. There is nothing that proves human beings CANNOT perfect something.

The reason why this matters is that the game won't last long enough if isn't difficult enough to be competitive enough to warrant spectation for the game. This hurts the business in esports, thus hurting esports, and possibly ruining something i've grown to love.

I think the majority of problems is that people are viewing the concepts of skill, knowledge, and skillcaps in somewhat incorrect ways.

Skill isn't the result of knowledge, knowledge is just a means as a basic tool to allow access to skill.

And a skillcap is simply the highest possible peak human beings can achieve. In which case you could argue that Broodwar was somewhat "solved" or neared it's skillcap as it's highly unlikely for another human being to achieve a higher level of "skill" than Flash, etc.

A high level of all three result in the ability of the game to become an esport as their is a higher level of interest in spectating. As well, the measureability of all three result in our terminology of the competition of the game.

In which case under these definitions we can definitely measure the difficulty, spectatability, and competitive nature of any video game, including League of Legends. There is no reason saying we CANT argue these points.


you are really trying too hard man


You think it's a bad thing to constantly try to think, argue, debate? If anything there isn't enough of it. Just people like you who can't remove their emotions and even try to attempt rationality. If people tried harder there most certainly would be less wars. And probably better games.

On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 15 2012 23:20 Exempt. wrote:
On March 15 2012 22:52 SmoKim wrote:
Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?

Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it?


Because theirs absolutely NOTHING wrong with arguing, it's people like you who get so emotionally involved that ruin the experience for everyone else.


Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing.


There's nothing wrong with calling the game uncompetitive because whether or not it's competitive or not, or whether you're good or bad at a game or anything else, does. not. matter. It's only flinging shit to you because you care too much about opinions of others about the game.

It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, like I said stop getting so emotionally involved in things that don't matter.

It's like it hurts peoples souls when someone tries to tell them that what they think or believe is wrong. It doesn't fucking matter if you're correct or not. Engaging in the activity is the important part. Fuck.


Wow...

There is nothing to argue about, so why argue? You haven't said one constructive thing at all this entire thread.

I posted this with the expectation that people would find this as good news, that e-sports are growing outside of just SC2. We aren't losing anything, nobody is... Well some people are freaking out over this like somebody is ruining your birthday party by having more people over to their house with a bigger cake 10 blocks away.

I've seen amazing discussions over the years on this site, actually arguing back and forth and not fighting like a bunch of spoiled brats over something that has no effect on them. I'm just going to ask a mod to lock this thread if people keep trying to smear other games and don't have any reasoning besides "LOL DOESN'T MAKE YOU HIT BUTTONS AS FAST SO IT MUST BE EASIER!!"


Well because it's just your opinion whether or not there is something to argue about. If you don't feel it's worth arguing then the obvious decision is to not engage in argument. You flinging shit because some people want to argue doesn't make you any better than anyone else.

The constructive argument I placed was that I felt LoL was bad for esports as it didn't support competition that would last many years to come for reasons such as lack of differentiating skill and what not. My conclusive thesis was that because of this lack of competition LoL would just hurt esports in the long run. Not help it.

The problem is people didn't go with retorting my opinion. They shit talked it. All that needed to be done with this argument was
someone to post what juicyfruit said recently in his opinions as to why lol is worth competition and thus esports by talking about:

- How many competitors there are
- Potential for skill improvement (i.e. skill cap)
- Balance

if someone simply, academically brang those points up to disprove my opinions on lol as a competitive game I would of left the discussion more open-minded.

But no, that didn't happen, because people can't think in a logic fashion, they get too clouded by their emotions because of the fact that I was arguing something that they certainly didn't believe in.

Here's one to hoping public school systems slowly improve / college is stressed more in society so that some day a larger portion of the human race can participate in a scholarly debate that so many simply aren't prepared to do now.


What, constructive argument? Really? This is what you said first:

wait....what...? people are arguing saying lol is a difficult game? what... that's a tough argument to make i must say.

I mean I can see people giving arguments that lol is as difficult as dota (its not) or counterstrike or quake (also not) or whatever, but motherfucking starcraft? That's silly trolling. I mean I might be sounding like a troll not even giving my reasonings as to why starcraft is undoubtedly a million fucking times harder but I think anyone with even an ounce of common sense will have the realization that no game genre comes close to it in purely mechanical and strategical skill.

-You not only might sound like a troll, you are purely trolling

The mechanical part is obvious but you might ask why strategical? Starcraft is more difficult strategical simply because it isn't a team game I'm sorry but take any task that you can do solo and then try to do it with five people. It's simply harder.

The only thing starcraft lacks is team synergy...and out of other team games of LoL, dota, counterstrike, hell even wow arenas I don't believe lol takes it out of the bunch.

I'm hugely disappointed by the Korean esports scene to try and make a quick buck with a popular game like this and taint the name and competition of esports that they have held so dearly over the years. Everyone looked towards them for guidance in how this is done and them supporting arguably the most casual and mechanically easiest demanding game of nearly all multiplayer games flusters me.

-sounds like you are going pretty emo there to me

The only argument that I've seen lol-defenders post against this is that ultimately the skill of gaming is between the players and the media on which they play doesn't matter if the competition is the fiercest. Absolutely 100% silly when it's possible to actually HIT the skill cap in the game.

-Do please give an example of how any current LoL player has hit skill cap. No better go ask any of them!

This IS the case with LoL, pro players literally hit boundaries in trying to actually prove they're above their competition. Not even just pro players we're talking random level 30's play the game nearly correct because their is no strategy the standard cookie-cutter play is proving to be the best play. Where's the spectation in that? Every game is the same because the best play is figured out. That's ludicrous that people have solved the game within two years of serious competition.

-Naturally, that's why M5 took 2 consecutive IEMs, not dropping a single map save one, in the first finals. 16-1. Naturally, everyone has the game 100% figured out if that can happen. Game clearly solved in 2 years of competition.
Cookie cutter builds is a LoL issue only? To me it sounds and looks, as I also spectate SC, that there's plenty of cookie cutter builds that lead to plain out boring games. Why would it be fine in Starcrafts, but not fine in LoL?


How can you show absurd displays of skill when the mechanical player with 300 minion kills ends the game with 18k gold earned while the player with 50 has 12k? Same with the player who is 24-2 with 18k gold to the 6-6 player with 14k.

-Are you implying being 50% up on gold vs your opponent is not a big deal? That's 2 full items you have over the other guy, you will simply roll him over if you fight. If you have that big of a lead, you will win the game unless you do a gigantic mistake. I think I've seen some big game throws in Starcraft too.

The advantages you gain are so minute that when one team in the lategame finally wins a teamfight you can actually just kill the towers and building in under a minute flat. Where the hell is the displaced skill there? In dota you can atleast have a buyback in case you lost the team fight, which in a lot of cases you DO lose the team fight because the heroes abilities are different.

-So you mean like a deathball vs deathball and the other ball wins the fight convincingly and then rolls on to wipe the other guy out. Or the team fights go pretty even, 4-4, 3-4 trades and the other team can maybe take an inhib before they have to back, or risk getting killed or losing baron right after when the other team rushes it? You just don't really make any sense

At this point you might argue that the intense skill displaced is during the team fight. That statement is ONLY true IF and IF every hero in this game is essentially balanced in such a way to the extent that any team of 5 heroes is perfectly equivalent to the other 5 heroes in that game. Essentially what I'm saying is that the game must have perfected balance towards team fights to truly prove if one team is better than the other, since obviously nearly all other factors in the game are of minute importance.

-all other factors in the game are not minute importance, what the heck? If one team clearly plays better early mid game, they can end the game without ever needing a big team fight, or they can force one where the other team has to respond but is in heavy heavy disagvantage. Please prove to me why every hero must be in full balance that random 5v5 is always equally balanced? Especially considering your notion of all other factors in the game having minute importance, which is fallacy.

And let me tell you bros, if it's even physically possible to balance a game in such a way then there is no way in a snowball's hell that League of Legends managed to do that.

-Seems like you have your personal agenda speaking here again, why would League not be able to achieve balance, what makes the game or its developers inherently worse than competitors to achieve such a balance? Doesn't seem very objective point of view to me.


If you're even attempting this logic you're just being emotionally clouded and close-mindedly arguing pointless irrational logic that simple isn't correct.

-Most amusing part is the lack of realization who is being close-minded and emotionally clouded-

TL;DR: LoL's design is way past the no return in casualness. LoL is not a competitive game and is ruining Esports.

-Yes, LoL is not a competetive game again because you say it isn't and it's ruining Esports, because you have the authority to claim that



I'm actually done with you, this is pointless, no need to reply.
ZoW
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3983 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-15 15:42:39
March 15 2012 15:42 GMT
#1529
On March 16 2012 00:37 Blasterion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2012 00:36 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:34 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:29 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Shiragaku wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Blasterion wrote:
Screw LoL and sc2 real men play Mahjong. Mahjong is where the money is at.

NOOOOO~ Shogi is the man's sport. The first board game with RPG elements!

Lol shogi. Chinese chess yo.


I like fake board games.

Pai Sho from Avatar anyone?

Screw pai sho real men play real games.like Mahjong


Wow. You did not just diss Pai Sho.

Pai Sho takes skill. Mahjong is so easy. Low skill cap, it's fun to play, but it's just horrible to watch. There also too many tiles but you only have like....three actions. You just take tiles and you flip them around.

Gosh. Terrible player. Go screw yourself and cry in a corner for killing e-sports.

6 points.

SEVEN POINTS

kong zi mo ftw mahjong4life
the courage to be a lazy bum
Blasterion
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
China10272 Posts
March 15 2012 15:43 GMT
#1530
On March 16 2012 00:38 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2012 00:37 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:36 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:34 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:29 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Shiragaku wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Blasterion wrote:
Screw LoL and sc2 real men play Mahjong. Mahjong is where the money is at.

NOOOOO~ Shogi is the man's sport. The first board game with RPG elements!

Lol shogi. Chinese chess yo.


I like fake board games.

Pai Sho from Avatar anyone?

Screw pai sho real men play real games.like Mahjong


Wow. You did not just diss Pai Sho.

Pai Sho takes skill. Mahjong is so easy. Low skill cap, it's fun to play, but it's just horrible to watch. There also too many tiles but you only have like.three actions. You just take tiles and you flip them around.

Gosh. Terrible player. Go screw yourself and cry in a corner for killing e-sports.

6 points.


Pssshh. You just got lucky. Probably hacked or something. Classic lack of professionalism these mahjong players. Bad for e-sports imo

Dat goumopai yo.
[TLNY]Mahjong Club Thread
intotheheart
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada33091 Posts
March 15 2012 15:43 GMT
#1531
On March 14 2012 20:09 MethodSC wrote:
It truly is the age of casuals... =/


Ah well, let it be glorious.
kiss kiss fall in love
Blasterion
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
China10272 Posts
March 15 2012 15:44 GMT
#1532
On March 16 2012 00:42 ZoW wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2012 00:37 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:36 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:34 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:29 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Shiragaku wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Blasterion wrote:
Screw LoL and sc2 real men play Mahjong. Mahjong is where the money is at.

NOOOOO~ Shogi is the man's sport. The first board game with RPG elements!

Lol shogi. Chinese chess yo.


I like fake board games.

Pai Sho from Avatar anyone?

Screw pai sho real men play real games.like Mahjong


Wow. You did not just diss Pai Sho.

Pai Sho takes skill. Mahjong is so easy. Low skill cap, it's fun to play, but it's just horrible to watch. There also too many tiles but you only have like....three actions. You just take tiles and you flip them around.

Gosh. Terrible player. Go screw yourself and cry in a corner for killing e-sports.

6 points.

SEVEN POINTS

kong zi mo ftw mahjong4life

Riichi desu WA~
[TLNY]Mahjong Club Thread
Zergneedsfood
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10671 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-15 15:45:28
March 15 2012 15:45 GMT
#1533
On March 16 2012 00:43 Blasterion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2012 00:38 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:37 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:36 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:34 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:29 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Shiragaku wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Blasterion wrote:
Screw LoL and sc2 real men play Mahjong. Mahjong is where the money is at.

NOOOOO~ Shogi is the man's sport. The first board game with RPG elements!

Lol shogi. Chinese chess yo.


I like fake board games.

Pai Sho from Avatar anyone?

Screw pai sho real men play real games.like Mahjong


Wow. You did not just diss Pai Sho.

Pai Sho takes skill. Mahjong is so easy. Low skill cap, it's fun to play, but it's just horrible to watch. There also too many tiles but you only have like.three actions. You just take tiles and you flip them around.

Gosh. Terrible player. Go screw yourself and cry in a corner for killing e-sports.

6 points.


Pssshh. You just got lucky. Probably hacked or something. Classic lack of professionalism these mahjong players. Bad for e-sports imo

Dat goumopai yo.


Don't worry guys. Rematch and we'll see who gets last laugh. >:D
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ Make a contract with me and join TLADT | Onodera isn't actually a girl, she's just a doormat you walk over to get to the girl. - Numy 2015
jpak
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States5045 Posts
March 15 2012 15:46 GMT
#1534
On March 16 2012 00:44 Blasterion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2012 00:42 ZoW wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:37 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:36 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:34 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:29 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Shiragaku wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Blasterion wrote:
Screw LoL and sc2 real men play Mahjong. Mahjong is where the money is at.

NOOOOO~ Shogi is the man's sport. The first board game with RPG elements!

Lol shogi. Chinese chess yo.


I like fake board games.

Pai Sho from Avatar anyone?

Screw pai sho real men play real games.like Mahjong


Wow. You did not just diss Pai Sho.

Pai Sho takes skill. Mahjong is so easy. Low skill cap, it's fun to play, but it's just horrible to watch. There also too many tiles but you only have like....three actions. You just take tiles and you flip them around.

Gosh. Terrible player. Go screw yourself and cry in a corner for killing e-sports.

6 points.

SEVEN POINTS

kong zi mo ftw mahjong4life

Riichi desu WA~


Everyone should mahjong. It is so manly.
CJ Entusman #50! #1 클템 fan TL!
Rorance
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada41 Posts
March 15 2012 15:46 GMT
#1535
On March 16 2012 00:06 Exempt. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2012 23:53 Rorance wrote:
On March 15 2012 23:36 Exempt. wrote:
On March 15 2012 23:28 biology]major wrote:
On March 15 2012 23:18 Exempt. wrote:
There are a lot of posts and arguments I can't address nor does addressing them accomplish my points. I hope everyone will be able to go into reading this post in a rational sense without getting heavily invested in emotions. Emotionality, although impossible to ridden of, can reasonably be lessened to an extent as to help logic true for atleast a decent discussion.

I hope everyone from this point can discuss an argument with avoidance of emotion in an attempt to give a discussion that is useful. At the very least I have accomplished my point of simply throwing my ideas out not to prove that I'm correct, but
merely providing an alternate possibility that some agree with. In the end of this it does not matter whether I'm right or wrong, nor does it matter if any of you are correct. That's not the point of argument.

As thus since there is no emotional outcome of this discussion, and little reason in pointing out semantics and sensationalism of proposed ideas. I'm sure people can point out the common sense behind these ideas and that their overall idea is the obvious, true, and meaningful idea.

And with that, I believe that the problem is:

People blindly believe that it's impossible to reach a skillcap. Which is a highly silly assumption. There is nothing that proves human beings CANNOT perfect something.

The reason why this matters is that the game won't last long enough if isn't difficult enough to be competitive enough to warrant spectation for the game. This hurts the business in esports, thus hurting esports, and possibly ruining something i've grown to love.

I think the majority of problems is that people are viewing the concepts of skill, knowledge, and skillcaps in somewhat incorrect ways.

Skill isn't the result of knowledge, knowledge is just a means as a basic tool to allow access to skill.

And a skillcap is simply the highest possible peak human beings can achieve. In which case you could argue that Broodwar was somewhat "solved" or neared it's skillcap as it's highly unlikely for another human being to achieve a higher level of "skill" than Flash, etc.

A high level of all three result in the ability of the game to become an esport as their is a higher level of interest in spectating. As well, the measureability of all three result in our terminology of the competition of the game.

In which case under these definitions we can definitely measure the difficulty, spectatability, and competitive nature of any video game, including League of Legends. There is no reason saying we CANT argue these points.


you are really trying too hard man


You think it's a bad thing to constantly try to think, argue, debate? If anything there isn't enough of it. Just people like you who can't remove their emotions and even try to attempt rationality. If people tried harder there most certainly would be less wars. And probably better games.

On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 15 2012 23:20 Exempt. wrote:
On March 15 2012 22:52 SmoKim wrote:
Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?

Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it?


Because theirs absolutely NOTHING wrong with arguing, it's people like you who get so emotionally involved that ruin the experience for everyone else.


Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing.


There's nothing wrong with calling the game uncompetitive because whether or not it's competitive or not, or whether you're good or bad at a game or anything else, does. not. matter. It's only flinging shit to you because you care too much about opinions of others about the game.

It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, like I said stop getting so emotionally involved in things that don't matter.

It's like it hurts peoples souls when someone tries to tell them that what they think or believe is wrong. It doesn't fucking matter if you're correct or not. Engaging in the activity is the important part. Fuck.


Wow...

There is nothing to argue about, so why argue? You haven't said one constructive thing at all this entire thread.

I posted this with the expectation that people would find this as good news, that e-sports are growing outside of just SC2. We aren't losing anything, nobody is... Well some people are freaking out over this like somebody is ruining your birthday party by having more people over to their house with a bigger cake 10 blocks away.

I've seen amazing discussions over the years on this site, actually arguing back and forth and not fighting like a bunch of spoiled brats over something that has no effect on them. I'm just going to ask a mod to lock this thread if people keep trying to smear other games and don't have any reasoning besides "LOL DOESN'T MAKE YOU HIT BUTTONS AS FAST SO IT MUST BE EASIER!!"


Well because it's just your opinion whether or not there is something to argue about. If you don't feel it's worth arguing then the obvious decision is to not engage in argument. You flinging shit because some people want to argue doesn't make you any better than anyone else.

The constructive argument I placed was that I felt LoL was bad for esports as it didn't support competition that would last many years to come for reasons such as lack of differentiating skill and what not. My conclusive thesis was that because of this lack of competition LoL would just hurt esports in the long run. Not help it.

The problem is people didn't go with retorting my opinion. They shit talked it. All that needed to be done with this argument was
someone to post what juicyfruit said recently in his opinions as to why lol is worth competition and thus esports by talking about:

- How many competitors there are
- Potential for skill improvement (i.e. skill cap)
- Balance

if someone simply, academically brang those points up to disprove my opinions on lol as a competitive game I would of left the discussion more open-minded.

But no, that didn't happen, because people can't think in a logic fashion, they get too clouded by their emotions because of the fact that I was arguing something that they certainly didn't believe in.

Here's one to hoping public school systems slowly improve / college is stressed more in society so that some day a larger portion of the human race can participate in a scholarly debate that so many simply aren't prepared to do now.


Okay, understood.

I'm going to try and parallel E-Sports with Sports in order to draw a comparison most people can grasp, I hope.

You can look at any sport that makes people compete on an individual level such as table tennis or golf and argue that they require more individual skill to succeed in. Which is of course correct, but that's only because if you make a mistake it's a lot more unforgiving then if you make a mistake in a team oriented sport like Hockey or Football (CFL/NFL variety).

What hurts my head is when people say team games require less or no skill because they aren't punished nearly as hard for making individual mistakes. If a table tennis player over shoots and misses the table, bam the opponent is up a point, if you are a quarterback and throw an interception you at least have the rest of your team on the field to stop an immediate touchdown and the defense to recover the ball. Taking away individual accountability doesn't make any team based sport require less skill on an individual level, they aren't mutually exclusive. We wouldn't have individuals on teams like Wayne Gretzky or Peyton Manning getting held up on people's shoulders and being heralded as masters of their craft if individual skill didn't matter.

Of course no sport really has a skill cap, it would lead to a very uninteresting viewing experience. If two people hit the skill cap in table tennis i'm sure it would be fun to watch for the first 3 minutes but after that when you realize no player is going to drop the ball so to speak it removes any aspect of suspense. I think this holds true for e-sports as well, if you had even 10 people hit the skill cap in LoL and pitted them in a 5vs5 the game would simply never end. People would realize the game isn't a viable competitive medium and move on, or Riot would fix it somehow, maybe make people maintain 300+ APM or get booted as so many people hold that number as a measure of skill these days.

Balance is also a relatively easy thing to address, even in a game with as many diverse pieces as LoL has. Day[9] summed balance up really well on an episode of the Daily or SotG, I can't quite remember. To paraphrase he said something along the lines of if something is overpowered then every single person would simply use that race/class/strategy/character. That of course would mean the game would get very stale very quick and not be a viable competitive medium. Of course the volatility of LoL simply means this won't happen, if one combination of characters seems to be unbeatable somebody will find a crack in that and exploit it with another combination of characters. It's like mixing boxing, rock paper scissors and chess into a sport between two opponents who have 5 hands that act on their own but are guided by one person.

Let me break that down a bit and explain... The boxing aspect comes from the fact you are trying to beat your opponent in a set number of rounds either by knocking him out or through a much longer game plan and simply out playing him. Rock paper scissors covers the randomness that is inherent in every game and sport; you, you're team and your opponents can't be predicted and individuals will have advantages over others but generally balance over all as a team. Chess simply because each person has a set amount of pieces to play with, 5 in the case of LoL with their active skills (You can go into items but shhhh), knowing what to use and when and being able to make those decisions in a split second repeatedly and accurately over a 20-30 minute game is exhausting. Doing all that is hard enough, but doing it with 4 other people while trying to act as a coherent whole is a difficult task.


I agree with you when you say knowledge gives you the tools you need to improve and be skillful. You don't see many pro golfers using a driver on the green >.<' Having the knowledge to know what tools to use and when is what really separates E-Sports from sports in my opinion.
Better red than dead!
Blasterion
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
China10272 Posts
March 15 2012 15:46 GMT
#1536
On March 16 2012 00:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2012 00:43 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:38 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:37 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:36 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:34 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:29 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Shiragaku wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Blasterion wrote:
Screw LoL and sc2 real men play Mahjong. Mahjong is where the money is at.

NOOOOO~ Shogi is the man's sport. The first board game with RPG elements!

Lol shogi. Chinese chess yo.


I like fake board games.

Pai Sho from Avatar anyone?

Screw pai sho real men play real games.like Mahjong


Wow. You did not just diss Pai Sho.

Pai Sho takes skill. Mahjong is so easy. Low skill cap, it's fun to play, but it's just horrible to watch. There also too many tiles but you only have like.three actions. You just take tiles and you flip them around.

Gosh. Terrible player. Go screw yourself and cry in a corner for killing e-sports.

6 points.


Pssshh. You just got lucky. Probably hacked or something. Classic lack of professionalism these mahjong players. Bad for e-sports imo

Dat goumopai yo.


Don't worry guys. Rematch and we'll see who gets last laugh. >:D

Probably me, dat rinshan tsumo
[TLNY]Mahjong Club Thread
Sumahi
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Guam5609 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-15 15:47:58
March 15 2012 15:47 GMT
#1537
No matter how hard I try, I can't really get into LoL, as a player or a viewer. Compared to SC2, it is like watching team tic tac toe. It's unfortunate that SC2 isn't getting more attention or credit.
Startale <3, ST_July <3, HongUn <3, Savior <3, Gretorp <3, Nada <3, Rainbow <3, Ret <3, Squirtle <3, Bomber <3
Walruslisk
Profile Joined November 2010
United States36 Posts
March 15 2012 15:47 GMT
#1538
[image loading]


User was warned for this post
yo dawg, i heard u like quotes
Hesmyrr
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada5776 Posts
March 15 2012 15:50 GMT
#1539
On March 16 2012 00:36 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2012 00:34 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:29 Blasterion wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Shiragaku wrote:
On March 16 2012 00:26 Blasterion wrote:
Screw LoL and sc2 real men play Mahjong. Mahjong is where the money is at.

NOOOOO~ Shogi is the man's sport. The first board game with RPG elements!

Lol shogi. Chinese chess yo.


I like fake board games.

Pai Sho from Avatar anyone?

Screw pai sho real men play real games.like Mahjong


Wow. You did not just diss Pai Sho.

Pai Sho takes skill. Mahjong is so easy. Low skill cap, it's fun to play, but it's just horrible to watch. There also too many tiles but you only have like....three actions. You just take tiles and you flip them around.

Gosh. Terrible player. Go screw yourself and cry in a corner for killing e-sports.

Hater that is why we have bazillion variation of rules to rotate around and keep meta-game fresh. Obv you have no idea how to play mahjong, missing the point entirely
"If watching the MSL finals makes you a progamer, then anyone in Korea can do it." - Ha Tae Ki
MindBreaker
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States574 Posts
March 15 2012 15:54 GMT
#1540
Woot good to hear lol is a great game and I love watching it. Go TSM! I play this like 5 hours a day ( unfortunately I'm terrible XD)
Is it weird that I play most of my online games at work? And that it's a pizza place??
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