LoL takes #1 E-sport spot in Korea - Page 78

jpak

United States5045 Posts

March 15 2012 15:59 GMT

#1541

On March 16 2012 00:50 Hesmyrr wrote:

Hater that is why we have bazillion variation of rules to rotate around and keep meta-game fresh. Obv you have no idea how to play mahjong, missing the point entirely

Actually, screw mahjong. Hwatu(화투) is the manly way to go.

Blasterion

China10272 Posts

March 15 2012 16:01 GMT

#1542

On March 16 2012 00:59 jpak wrote:

Show nested quote +

Actually, screw mahjong. Hwatu(화투) is the manly way to go.

Wtf is hwatu, never heard of it must be some scrub game.

b0lt

United States789 Posts

March 15 2012 16:02 GMT

#1543

On March 16 2012 00:47 Sumahi wrote:
No matter how hard I try, I can't really get into LoL, as a player or a viewer. Compared to SC2, it is like watching team tic tac toe. It's unfortunate that SC2 isn't getting more attention or credit.

No matter how hard I try, I can't really get into SC2, as a player or a viewer. Compared to BW, it is like watching tic tac toe. It's unfortunate that BW isn't getting more attention or credit.

Zergneedsfood

United States10671 Posts

March 15 2012 16:03 GMT

#1544

On March 16 2012 01:01 Blasterion wrote:

Show nested quote +

Wtf is hwatu, never heard of it must be some scrub game.

You guys are all scrubs. Go play hopscotch. Best sport.

On March 16 2012 00:50 Hesmyrr wrote:

Show nested quote +

Hater that is why we have bazillion variation of rules to rotate around and keep meta-game fresh. Obv you have no idea how to play mahjong, missing the point entirely

Wow. Stop getting all emotional. You have no logic. I'm smart.

Blasterion

China10272 Posts

March 15 2012 16:08 GMT

#1545

On March 16 2012 01:03 Zergneedsfood wrote:

Show nested quote +

You guys are all scrubs. Go play hopscotch. Best sport.

Show nested quote +

Wow. Stop getting all emotional. You have no logic. I'm smart.

6 points smart

jpak

United States5045 Posts

March 15 2012 16:09 GMT

#1546

On March 16 2012 01:01 Blasterion wrote:

Show nested quote +

Wtf is hwatu, never heard of it must be some scrub game.

Hwatu is only the most intense, manliest game to ever exist. Now that shit is serious biz.

Exempt.

United States470 Posts

March 15 2012 16:09 GMT

#1547

On March 16 2012 00:46 Rorance wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 16 2012 00:06 Exempt. wrote:

On March 15 2012 23:53 Rorance wrote:

On March 15 2012 23:36 Exempt. wrote:

On March 15 2012 23:28 biology]major wrote:

On March 15 2012 23:18 Exempt. wrote:
There are a lot of posts and arguments I can't address nor does addressing them accomplish my points. I hope everyone will be able to go into reading this post in a rational sense without getting heavily invested in emotions. Emotionality, although impossible to ridden of, can reasonably be lessened to an extent as to help logic true for atleast a decent discussion.

I hope everyone from this point can discuss an argument with avoidance of emotion in an attempt to give a discussion that is useful. At the very least I have accomplished my point of simply throwing my ideas out not to prove that I'm correct, but
merely providing an alternate possibility that some agree with. In the end of this it does not matter whether I'm right or wrong, nor does it matter if any of you are correct. That's not the point of argument.

As thus since there is no emotional outcome of this discussion, and little reason in pointing out semantics and sensationalism of proposed ideas. I'm sure people can point out the common sense behind these ideas and that their overall idea is the obvious, true, and meaningful idea.

And with that, I believe that the problem is:

People blindly believe that it's impossible to reach a skillcap. Which is a highly silly assumption. There is nothing that proves human beings CANNOT perfect something.

The reason why this matters is that the game won't last long enough if isn't difficult enough to be competitive enough to warrant spectation for the game. This hurts the business in esports, thus hurting esports, and possibly ruining something i've grown to love.

I think the majority of problems is that people are viewing the concepts of skill, knowledge, and skillcaps in somewhat incorrect ways.

Skill isn't the result of knowledge, knowledge is just a means as a basic tool to allow access to skill.

And a skillcap is simply the highest possible peak human beings can achieve. In which case you could argue that Broodwar was somewhat "solved" or neared it's skillcap as it's highly unlikely for another human being to achieve a higher level of "skill" than Flash, etc.

A high level of all three result in the ability of the game to become an esport as their is a higher level of interest in spectating. As well, the measureability of all three result in our terminology of the competition of the game.

In which case under these definitions we can definitely measure the difficulty, spectatability, and competitive nature of any video game, including League of Legends. There is no reason saying we CANT argue these points.

you are really trying too hard man

You think it's a bad thing to constantly try to think, argue, debate? If anything there isn't enough of it. Just people like you who can't remove their emotions and even try to attempt rationality. If people tried harder there most certainly would be less wars. And probably better games.

On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:

On March 15 2012 23:20 Exempt. wrote:

On March 15 2012 22:52 SmoKim wrote:
Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?

Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it?

Because theirs absolutely NOTHING wrong with arguing, it's people like you who get so emotionally involved that ruin the experience for everyone else.

Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing.

There's nothing wrong with calling the game uncompetitive because whether or not it's competitive or not, or whether you're good or bad at a game or anything else, does. not. matter. It's only flinging shit to you because you care too much about opinions of others about the game.

It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, like I said stop getting so emotionally involved in things that don't matter.

It's like it hurts peoples souls when someone tries to tell them that what they think or believe is wrong. It doesn't fucking matter if you're correct or not. Engaging in the activity is the important part. Fuck.

Wow...

There is nothing to argue about, so why argue? You haven't said one constructive thing at all this entire thread.

I posted this with the expectation that people would find this as good news, that e-sports are growing outside of just SC2. We aren't losing anything, nobody is... Well some people are freaking out over this like somebody is ruining your birthday party by having more people over to their house with a bigger cake 10 blocks away.

I've seen amazing discussions over the years on this site, actually arguing back and forth and not fighting like a bunch of spoiled brats over something that has no effect on them. I'm just going to ask a mod to lock this thread if people keep trying to smear other games and don't have any reasoning besides "LOL DOESN'T MAKE YOU HIT BUTTONS AS FAST SO IT MUST BE EASIER!!"

Well because it's just your opinion whether or not there is something to argue about. If you don't feel it's worth arguing then the obvious decision is to not engage in argument. You flinging shit because some people want to argue doesn't make you any better than anyone else.

The constructive argument I placed was that I felt LoL was bad for esports as it didn't support competition that would last many years to come for reasons such as lack of differentiating skill and what not. My conclusive thesis was that because of this lack of competition LoL would just hurt esports in the long run. Not help it.

The problem is people didn't go with retorting my opinion. They shit talked it. All that needed to be done with this argument was
someone to post what juicyfruit said recently in his opinions as to why lol is worth competition and thus esports by talking about:

- How many competitors there are
- Potential for skill improvement (i.e. skill cap)
- Balance

if someone simply, academically brang those points up to disprove my opinions on lol as a competitive game I would of left the discussion more open-minded.

But no, that didn't happen, because people can't think in a logic fashion, they get too clouded by their emotions because of the fact that I was arguing something that they certainly didn't believe in.

Here's one to hoping public school systems slowly improve / college is stressed more in society so that some day a larger portion of the human race can participate in a scholarly debate that so many simply aren't prepared to do now.

Okay, understood.

I'm going to try and parallel E-Sports with Sports in order to draw a comparison most people can grasp, I hope.

You can look at any sport that makes people compete on an individual level such as table tennis or golf and argue that they require more individual skill to succeed in. Which is of course correct, but that's only because if you make a mistake it's a lot more unforgiving then if you make a mistake in a team oriented sport like Hockey or Football (CFL/NFL variety).

What hurts my head is when people say team games require less or no skill because they aren't punished nearly as hard for making individual mistakes. If a table tennis player over shoots and misses the table, bam the opponent is up a point, if you are a quarterback and throw an interception you at least have the rest of your team on the field to stop an immediate touchdown and the defense to recover the ball. Taking away individual accountability doesn't make any team based sport require less skill on an individual level, they aren't mutually exclusive. We wouldn't have individuals on teams like Wayne Gretzky or Peyton Manning getting held up on people's shoulders and being heralded as masters of their craft if individual skill didn't matter.

Of course no sport really has a skill cap, it would lead to a very uninteresting viewing experience. If two people hit the skill cap in table tennis i'm sure it would be fun to watch for the first 3 minutes but after that when you realize no player is going to drop the ball so to speak it removes any aspect of suspense. I think this holds true for e-sports as well, if you had even 10 people hit the skill cap in LoL and pitted them in a 5vs5 the game would simply never end. People would realize the game isn't a viable competitive medium and move on, or Riot would fix it somehow, maybe make people maintain 300+ APM or get booted as so many people hold that number as a measure of skill these days.

Balance is also a relatively easy thing to address, even in a game with as many diverse pieces as LoL has. Day[9] summed balance up really well on an episode of the Daily or SotG, I can't quite remember. To paraphrase he said something along the lines of if something is overpowered then every single person would simply use that race/class/strategy/character. That of course would mean the game would get very stale very quick and not be a viable competitive medium. Of course the volatility of LoL simply means this won't happen, if one combination of characters seems to be unbeatable somebody will find a crack in that and exploit it with another combination of characters. It's like mixing boxing, rock paper scissors and chess into a sport between two opponents who have 5 hands that act on their own but are guided by one person.

Let me break that down a bit and explain... The boxing aspect comes from the fact you are trying to beat your opponent in a set number of rounds either by knocking him out or through a much longer game plan and simply out playing him. Rock paper scissors covers the randomness that is inherent in every game and sport; you, you're team and your opponents can't be predicted and individuals will have advantages over others but generally balance over all as a team. Chess simply because each person has a set amount of pieces to play with, 5 in the case of LoL with their active skills (You can go into items but shhhh), knowing what to use and when and being able to make those decisions in a split second repeatedly and accurately over a 20-30 minute game is exhausting. Doing all that is hard enough, but doing it with 4 other people while trying to act as a coherent whole is a difficult task.

I agree with you when you say knowledge gives you the tools you need to improve and be skillful. You don't see many pro golfers using a driver on the green >.<' Having the knowledge to know what tools to use and when is what really separates E-Sports from sports in my opinion.

Just as a followup I believe the reason why most people say team games like LoL are less skilled than sc2 is because if one is to be punished less severely on a mistake it slowly discludes the mistake over time. The problem with LoL is exactly that -- it discludes a lot of mistakes into a severely nasty punishment to the team in the end where one team wins a teamfight and ends the game.

That's a huge problem with the game because it emphasizes the skill needed for the singular teamfight and less on everything that leads up to the teamfight. This leads to the game being less dynamic / strategic. With the game being less strategic players can then focus more practice in perfecting a smaller number of mechanical skills in the first place. When the player can then focus more energy into a singular skill at hand they can then reach the supposed skillcap for that mechanical skill and perfect it. At this point we're at a dilemma as to whether or not players can do this as there is no proof or not this is theorteically possible. My proposition is that this is possible for players to perfect the mechanical skills required in LoL and thus hit or enclose the skillcap unlike ever seen before in any other competitive esport seen yet.

That's why I believe LoL in it's current state won't last as a competitive game.

You bring an interesting point about if 10 players hit then skillcap then a 5v5 would never end. I think this will happen to a lesser extent. Games will continuously get longer and longer if something isn't done to fix it because pushing and ending a near even game is too highly difficult for either team to do. As well, when games get longer and longer those mistakes we were talking about before will continuously become less important -- ever much so that the team fight becomes increasingly more important.

I think you are completely correct about balance, it's a pretty easy fix to design the game to be better. In order to make the game better I feel they need to rebalance the game in a way where the end team fight plays a slightly less importance in the grand scheme of things. In which case LoL certainly would be a more competitive game in my eyes.

One area in which I think they could do this is revamping their summoner spell system, the game would be much more dynamic and strategic if it were possible for players to change their summoner spells during the game. This would further increase the skillcap by adding larger strategic depth to the game. The means by which they do this whether by cooldowns, gold use, whatever, doesn't matter.

TL;DR: I simply don't understand why people are so vehemently against my opinions when their were thousands upon thousands of SC2 related threads stating that starcraft was designed wrong and was a bad game. Well it was, and blizzard redesigned and balanced the game until shit like 4 gate weren't so predominant. LoL NEEDS to go through this same phase in design change or it flat out won't deliver as a good competitive game.

a5mod

France61 Posts

March 15 2012 16:11 GMT

#1548

Teamliquid should stop supporting LoL streams.

jpak

United States5045 Posts

March 15 2012 16:14 GMT

#1549

On March 16 2012 01:03 Zergneedsfood wrote:

Show nested quote +

You guys are all scrubs. Go play hopscotch. Best sport.

Show nested quote +

Wow. Stop getting all emotional. You have no logic. I'm smart.

Jumprope is obviously best

But hwatu es #1 huehuehuehue.

Hesmyrr

Canada5776 Posts

March 15 2012 16:14 GMT

#1550

On March 16 2012 01:03 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Wow. Stop getting all emotional. You have no logic. I'm smart.

Coaxed ad hominem out of you. Morale victory.

On March 16 2012 01:09 jpak wrote:

Show nested quote +

Hwatu is only the most intense, manliest game to ever exist. Now that shit is serious biz.

LOL Hwatu is hanafuda for the casuals.

Two_DoWn

United States13684 Posts

March 15 2012 16:16 GMT

#1551

Exempt, have you ever PLAYED lol?

Because everything you have poststed about the game is incorrect.

archonOOid

1983 Posts

March 15 2012 16:17 GMT

#1552

On March 16 2012 01:11 a5mod wrote:
Teamliquid should stop supporting LoL streams.

this. What's the next step supporting up and coming angry birds players? I mean just because a game is popular doesn't make it interesting to play much less to watch. I think lol can be a good complement for players that find Hon/dota too hard but in the the competitive scene there should be only room for one game.

Blasterion

China10272 Posts

March 15 2012 16:17 GMT

#1553

On March 16 2012 01:14 Hesmyrr wrote:

Show nested quote +

Coaxed ad hominem out of you. Morale victory.

Show nested quote +

LOL Hwatu is hanafuda for the casuals.

Screw ask that let's go play karuta.that chihayafuru yo.

jpak

United States5045 Posts

March 15 2012 16:18 GMT

#1554

On March 16 2012 01:14 Hesmyrr wrote:

Show nested quote +

Coaxed ad hominem out of you. Morale victory.

Show nested quote +

LOL Hwatu is hanafuda for the casuals.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Perhaps we should play a game? :p

When an entire drama and movie is based off of a card game, you know that is serious biz.

Hesmyrr

Canada5776 Posts

March 15 2012 16:23 GMT

#1555

On March 16 2012 01:18 jpak wrote:

Show nested quote +

You have no idea what you're talking about. Perhaps we should play a game? :p

When an entire drama and movie is based off of a card game, you know that is serious biz.

Yut over all. South Korean game man, real serious e-biz

JBright

Vancouver14381 Posts

March 15 2012 16:26 GMT

#1556

On March 16 2012 01:17 archonOOid wrote:

Show nested quote +

The Lol/Dota2 streams are featured by request of their respective subforums. There is a small but significant number of TL members who play these games and they would like to know when some other TL members are streaming. To the best of my knowledge, all of the featured LoL streamers play a large part in the LoL subforum.

Blasterion

China10272 Posts

March 15 2012 16:27 GMT

#1557

On March 16 2012 01:23 Hesmyrr wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yut over all. South Korean game man, real serious e-biz

Lol yut no skill game, true athletes play konggi

Miyoshino

314 Posts

March 15 2012 16:28 GMT

#1558

On March 16 2012 00:05 Juicyfruit wrote:
People like to bring up the Tic-Tac-Toe argument against this a lot but that just takes the conclusion to the far extreme. There's nothing inherently different about tic-tac-toe vs go except the number of possible combinations from the very limited moves that you can make. A race of super-intelligent aliens might perceive Go as being as easy as TTT and yet from our point of view they're world's apart.

People don't bring up tic tac toe to straw man you. They bring it up because it is instructive and helps remove confusion.

There is inherently also no difference between go and football. In American football they actually have set plays. But in football there is also theoretically a perfect decision. All others would be inferior. There's good and bad was to kick off. And then it just goes from there. Set pieces are the most similar parts of the game compared to go. Or compared to SC.

Also, no matter how infinitely smart you are and how easy it would be for a hypothetical intelligence to see a forced win in an average go game, by no means does that ever mean they are both equally easy. The enormous difference in complexifty always has to be many magintudes more obvious that the solution, The mind of these fictiious go players still have to make all the calculations to get the solution. That doesn't change.

gosuMalicE

Canada676 Posts

March 15 2012 16:30 GMT

#1559

Ugh, it extremely unfortunate that this would happen to a moba instead of SC2, Even more unfortunate when the moba in question is the unbalanced and boring pos lol, instead of DOTA 2 or HoN.

Lysteria

France2279 Posts

March 15 2012 16:32 GMT

#1560

Wow, and i really need to follow the korean tournament now, the video put in that thread pages ago is really nice.

Prev 1 76 77 78 79 80 89 Next

Please or register to reply.

LoL takes #1 E-sport spot in Korea - Page 78

Completed

Ongoing

Upcoming