EPTLoL takes #1 E-sport spot in Korea - Page 73
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8637 Posts
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Gondlem
Australia642 Posts
On March 15 2012 21:28 Exempt. wrote:How can you show absurd displays of skill when the mechanical player with 300 minion kills ends the game with 18k gold earned while the player with 50 has 12k? Same with the player who is 24-2 with 18k gold to the 6-6 player with 14k. The advantages you gain are so minute that when one team in the lategame finally wins a teamfight you can actually just kill the towers and building in under a minute flat. Where the hell is the displaced skill there? In dota you can atleast have a buyback in case you lost the team fight, which in a lot of cases you DO lose the team fight because the heroes abilities are different. At this point you might argue that the intense skill displaced is during the team fight. That statement is ONLY true IF and IF every hero in this game is essentially balanced in such a way to the extent that any team of 5 heroes is perfectly equivalent to the other 5 heroes in that game. Essentially what I'm saying is that the game must have perfected balance towards team fights to truly prove if one team is better than the other, since obviously nearly all other factors in the game are of minute importance. Firstly, having 50% more gold as in your example here is not a minute difference, it's gigantic. If the people on your team have 50% more gold than the other team you will absolutely crush them in a teamfight. Watch a pro game where a team gets an early gold advantage of say 10% and watch how one-sided the teamfights are from that point. If you get that far behind you won't be able to contest objectives and the game will quickly snowball out of control unless you manage something drastic like a baron steal or whatever. Obviously if you do try and contest anything straight up you will just get rolled and immediately lose. Consider game one of the recent IEM finals for example, which was an absolute one-sided stomp that was pretty much over by the 10 minute mark because of a gold advantage of around 30%: BTW, the reason the game was decided so early was because of strategic innovation on m5's part, mostly, as well as just superior overall play of course. They put Urgot solo bot with blue buff at level 1 which was totally unexpected and allowed Alistar to roam with their jungler and secure a series of kills that quickly snowballed the game away from Dignitas. Secondly, most games at all levels of play are decided way before any sort of lategame team fight. The example you're giving here where two teams are evenly matched until one big teamfight which goes decisively in a particular direction and the game ends immediately is basically an unusually close game where neither team wants to commit to a risky attack until it becomes absolutely necessary, and then whoever wins that big fight wins the game. Many games of Starcraft end exactly like this so its hardly unique to League, nor is it a problem really. Finally, even the absolute top tier of players currently are nowhere near playing perfectly. If you watch that game I linked above you will see mistakes from players on both sides. Your suggestion that many players in LoL currently have hit some sort of skill cap where they can't influence the outcome of a game because everyone is playing perfectly is just absurd. | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
I don't see how anyone who enjoys starcraft can get heavily into LoL but thats just me. It's simply less impressive to watch at a high level. | ||
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Cel.erity
United States4890 Posts
On March 15 2012 08:21 Juicyfruit wrote: Because for every mechanic that you take away, it just requires more mastery of the mechanics that's left. Being able to do something, and doing it better than someone else are different concepts. Again, I bring you back to the soccer vs free climbing argument. It's considerably harder to be able to climb at all, vs kicking a ball, but that doesn't mean mastery of soccer is any more attainable than mastery of climbing (both essentially impossible to perform at perfection). This analogy does not work, since you are comparing two completely different things. DotA contains basically every element of LoL while LoL does not contain every element of DotA. In your analogy, it is more like soccer vs kickball. In kickball, you kick a ball and run. In soccer, you also pretty much just kick a ball and run, but you also have to be a lot more aware of what's going on and the other players. It is a deeper game that requires a similar skillset. If you're good at DotA/soccer, you will be good at LoL/kickball, but the reverse is certainly not true. Any game can be competitive; just because it is a simpler game does not mean it still doesn't require teamwork, and good awareness. I think basketball certainly requires less mechanical skill than baseball, but that doesn't necessarily mean they can't coexist as competitive sports. I still admire anyone who puts the time in to be at the top of either game. However, it is undeniable that it requires a lot more work to be at the top in DotA, where there is a much larger competitive scene and the players are more skilled in general from playing their game for 4+ years longer than LoL has existed. | ||
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biology]major
United States2253 Posts
On March 15 2012 22:06 Exempt. wrote: Funny how they're also a dota team, only further proves my point. Doesn't change the fact that lol is the most stagnant 'competitive' game out there right now. I wouldn't say ANYTHING they've done is radical. It's like a 4 gate to a 3 gate...yeah real different. LoL is the fastest multiplayer game to become stagnant in video game history. You can keep trying to prove to yourself that the game your really good at is difficult but in the end you're just being ignorant if you feel it's anywhere close to as difficult as just about anything else that human beings compete in. Even magic the gathering. We can skip the whole silly cop out debate of "blind fanboyism / hate" since it's necessary. I've 300 hours played of the silly game and it's obviously fun. But casual garbage that is trying to be called competitive is a joke. This will only be proven when koreans play 8-10 hours a day for this league. I just feel sorry for all the avid fans of the lol scene when they realize their game IS stagnant, IS casual, and ISNT worthy for competition. If your main problem with my post was the sensationalistic wording used in my quote than you've already copped out of this argument anyways and I'm further proven correct. You literally have no idea what you are talking about lol, comparing moscow 5's style a shift from "4 gate to 3gate". like thats the problem in this community, a bunch of idiots who think they know shit post with pure ignorance | ||
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
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Exempt.
United States470 Posts
On March 15 2012 21:58 Miyoshino wrote: People aren't sayng LoL is a hard game. They are just laughing at those that try to be elitist about SC2. SC2 is as casual as RTS games can get. Target audience includes the mothers of WoW players, according to Browder. LoL may have sold their soul to esports, Blizzard sold it to something else. That's why RTS is dying in favour of MOBAs. Korea is trying to keep esports alive. For that they need a popular game. SC2 is a failed game. It failed harder than WC3. So they have to move on. LoL is the obvious game to go with. It had insane stream views outside Korea. And now it apparently exploded in Korea. Two big factors; you can actually go to a PC Bang and just play it. And matches are actually in TV. SC2 still hasn't overtaken SC BW. And it probably never will. All the rumours about proleague switching to SC2, at this point they will just disband completely. A switch to SC2 won't do much to keep RTS alive much longer. Also, there is no other RTS game on the horizon that has the potential to replace both SC2 and SC BW. But no Blizzard is still waging war on OGN and Kespa. Haha. Can't wait till WoW subscriptions start to really collapse fast. I'll be laughing the day Morhaime has to tell his wife and children he is fired. I can respect that post other than the flamebait unnecessary introduction. Why do you think non-LoL players are trashing lol? Hint: It isn't jealously, it doesn't matter which competitive game is the top one. But that's the point. The game should ACTUALLY be competitive. The point that korea is trying to keep esports alive with a popular game is true though, and ill respect it. But outside of Korea though, it makes this fucking business look stupid / fickle / whatever else the economists in MLG TL thread are talking about. This little League of Legends phase isn't helping esports globally if people continually hop on the new hot thing (which is happening really fast). | ||
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Exempt.
United States470 Posts
On March 15 2012 22:12 biology]major wrote: You literally have no idea what you are talking about lol, comparing moscow 5's style a shift from "4 gate to 3gate". like thats the problem in this community, a bunch of idiots who think they know shit post with pure ignorance No one cares you're just flaming, you don't have an actual argument, and you're no better / mature or wtfever you're flamebaiting about in the last few posts when you're just shittalking the entire time. I'm at least giving reasons as to why people hate the fucking game. You're just hating the fact that people fucking hate it. Not useful or constructive just shows a lack of confidence in your own intelligence. Do us both a favor and bring an actual fucking argument instead of looking like a joke yourself. At least my rant has logic in it. | ||
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biology]major
United States2253 Posts
On March 15 2012 22:18 Exempt. wrote: No one cares you're just flaming, you don't have an actual argument, and you're no better / mature or wtfever you're flamebaiting about in the last few posts when you're just shittalking the entire time. I'm at least giving reasons as to why people hate the fucking game. You're just hating the fact that people fucking hate it. Not useful or constructive just shows a lack of confidence in your own intelligence. Do us both a favor and bring an actual fucking argument instead of looking like a joke yourself. At least my rant has logic in it. you have been writing essay posts stating "LoL is not worthy as an esport" or "LoL is not competetive" I do not even need to make an argument to debate that, its just straight up ignorance. Anyone with half a brain will know at a high level in LoL it is extremely competetive and since it has depth and close to infinite options (same as sc or dota); it is easy to see it be an esport. The argument people can and should make are that it is difficult to SPECTATE as an esport, and maybe debate that. Instead its a bunch of people like you saying nonsense in 1000 word posts edit: and no your posts do not have logic in them at all | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On March 15 2012 22:12 Zzoram wrote: Blizzard severely limited SC2's potential as an eSport the day they decided to wage war with KeSPA and OGN. LoL filled the void left by SC2's absence from KeSPA and OGN. I think it's the way they saw esports as a new revenue stream instead of a budding industry that ultimately led us down this path. The same reason we cough up 50% of tournament profits to Blizzard is why SC2 failed so badly in Korea. Just pure unmitigated greed. From the premium to play SC2 in pc bangs to trying to go to war with Kespa and the game channels. No doubt Gom has basically bent over for them as well. How much of our subscription fees probably end up in the hands of Blizzard? They've been pretty damn scummy since day one about SC2, now we have doomsday forecasts from every tournament host out there, SC2 completely failing in Korea, etc. Maybe if they had that extra half of whatever (small) profit tournaments turn we wouldn't be in this predicament | ||
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Exempt.
United States470 Posts
On March 15 2012 22:09 Gondlem wrote: Firstly, having 50% more gold as in your example here is not a minute difference, it's gigantic. If the people on your team have 50% more gold than the other team you will absolutely crush them in a teamfight. Watch a pro game where a team gets an early gold advantage of say 10% and watch how one-sided the teamfights are from that point. If you get that far behind you won't be able to contest objectives and the game will quickly snowball out of control unless you manage something drastic like a baron steal or whatever. Obviously if you do try and contest anything straight up you will just get rolled and immediately lose. Consider game one of the recent IEM finals for example, which was an absolute one-sided stomp that was pretty much over by the 10 minute mark because of a gold advantage of around 30%: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igd9ejmkxU4 BTW, the reason the game was decided so early was because of strategic innovation on m5's part, mostly, as well as just superior overall play of course. They put Urgot solo bot with blue buff at level 1 which was totally unexpected and allowed Alistar to roam with their jungler and secure a series of kills that quickly snowballed the game away from Dignitas. Secondly, most games at all levels of play are decided way before any sort of lategame team fight. The example you're giving here where two teams are evenly matched until one big teamfight which goes decisively in a particular direction and the game ends immediately is basically an unusually close game where neither team wants to commit to a risky attack until it becomes absolutely necessary, and then whoever wins that big fight wins the game. Many games of Starcraft end exactly like this so its hardly unique to League, nor is it a problem really. Finally, even the absolute top tier of players currently are nowhere near playing perfectly. If you watch that game I linked above you will see mistakes from players on both sides. Your suggestion that many players in LoL currently have hit some sort of skill cap where they can't influence the outcome of a game because everyone is playing perfectly is just absurd. 50% for the 24-2 player to the 6-6 player. If there's one single 24-2 player to everyone else in the game around 5-5 so all players are 12kg to his 18kg to gold is EXTREMELY minute. So far the only examples people have given are M5 bring talented play to a very stagnant game. Considering LoL is the most played game in the world it only makes sense that their should be a lot of teams bring dynamic strategy to this game. And there isn't. My point that players are nearing the skillcap of the game is relative to other competitive games. In which case LoL absolutely is closing the gap the fastest by the largest margin in the shortest amount of time. At this rate there obviously will be a skillcap that is realistically being closed. Considering the only situations where players are raising the roof's skillcap are weird situations like that M5 game it shows the only existing lasting factor to prove the competitive skill of the game is knowledge. Once all players learn each situation where events like these occur there will no longer be any inherent skill to be displaced. If you recall Day9 daily #400 even he goes on to explain that it's a major fallacy to believe that one's skill is related to one's knowledge. And so far the only proof people have of skill in League of Legends is the amount of knowledge they know of the game. Which is truly false. | ||
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snpnx
Germany454 Posts
It doesn't matter if SC/SC2 or LoL is more difficult, difficult in different ways w/e. If it's played competitvely and enough people like to watch it that's all it takes. There are harder (to master) games out there than soccer, still soccer is the all-time favorite sportsgame to watch for many europeans. The whole discussion about difficulty is unneccesary. Even if a game is simpler or 'easier' than the other one, both cannot be perfected by humans, there will always be mistakes made and no one will ever reach the skillcap. So both are 'difficult enough' to begin with. | ||
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Exempt.
United States470 Posts
On March 15 2012 22:12 biology]major wrote: you have been writing essay posts stating "LoL is not worthy as an esport" or "LoL is not competetive" I do not even need to make an argument to debate that, its just straight up ignorance. Anyone with half a brain will know at a high level in LoL it is extremely competetive and since it has depth and close to infinite options (same as sc or dota); it is easy to see it be an esport. The argument people can and should make are that it is difficult to SPECTATE as an esport, and maybe debate that. Instead its a bunch of people like you saying nonsense in 1000 word posts edit: and no your posts do not have logic in them at all It's the opposite of ignorance just blandly accepting that anything can be considered competitive is highly false and utopian in nature. It simply isn't difficult to design a game that doesn't support higher levels of play. LoL proves to be one of them. And considering so many people agree with this point (aka calling the game casual) we can use that obviously reasonable analysis to prove that a game is not designed in a way that supports strong enough levels of competition. And it doesn't. Just simple as that. You can't prove whether or not LoL has infinite options, if anything it's got the least out of all competitive games, THAT IS THE PROBLEM BEING DISCUSSED. Also whether or not you respect my logic doesn't matter, it doesn't result in whether it is logic or not. | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On March 15 2012 20:31 IndoorSpawningPool wrote: The LoL scene will never have a Day9 or Tastosis level of professionalism and quality. If their scene is the future of Esports then it's just not worth my time. You kids have no idea. LoL has Kim Carrier and Hong Jin Ho. | ||
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Gondlem
Australia642 Posts
On March 15 2012 22:28 Exempt. wrote: My point that players are nearing the skillcap of the game is relative to other competitive games. In which case LoL absolutely is closing the gap the fastest by the largest margin in the shortest amount of time. At this rate there obviously will be a skillcap that is realistically being closed. Considering the only situations where players are raising the roof's skillcap are weird situations like that M5 game it shows the only existing lasting factor to prove the competitive skill of the game is knowledge. Once all players learn each situation where events like these occur there will no longer be any inherent skill to be displaced. Yeah, there's not much else to say in response to that except that you're just wrong. Every single major League tournament results in massive changes to the metagame because of new strategies, the game is still new and evolving and players at the top are still a long, long way short of playing mechanically flawlessly let alone having explored all possible strategic paths. There's so many things in the game still untested, so many potential counters unexplored, it's just absurd to suggest that players are anywhere near having "solved" LoL. M5 just comes up a lot because they are the best team around currently, that will change, as will the dominant strategies as new playstyles evolve. Let's not forget also that you're competing against other players, so mechanical mastery of something like last hitting is always going to be impossible. You might be able to theoretically get 100% cs against no opposition but once you take into account harass from your lane opponent and potential ganks etc it becomes impossible unless you're already massively dominant for some reason. It's not a game that can be "beaten", mechanically or strategically. This is the same argument that people made about SC2 when it first came out, that because of the easier interface the game had a low skill cap that players would quickly reach, which clearly isn't the case. | ||
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
On March 15 2012 22:12 Exempt. wrote: I can respect that post other than the flamebait unnecessary introduction. Why do you think non-LoL players are trashing lol? Hint: It isn't jealously, it doesn't matter which competitive game is the top one. But that's the point. The game should ACTUALLY be competitive. It's played competetively at pro level. It gets the viewers. It has money behind it. It has big organizations behind it. But a random joe Exempt on the forums on TL is telling it's not actually competetive game. Because he says so. God, I wish we could fire all those people in deciding positions at all those companies that somehow made this game that's not competetive, appealing to a large audience AND managed to create a pro scene to it. Damn clueless people they are! | ||
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shaftofpleasure
Korea (North)1375 Posts
I never had any opinions on LoL except for it's childish graphics but seeing these SC2 fanboy tears makes me smile. Blizzard fucked this up royally. Goodluck .. LOL (laugh out loud) On March 15 2012 22:37 daemir wrote: It's played competetively at pro level. It gets the viewers. It has money behind it. It has big organizations behind it. But a random joe Exempt on the forums on TL is telling it's not actually competetive game. Because he says so. God, I wish we could fire all those people in deciding positions at all those companies that somehow made this game that's not competetive, appealing to a large audience AND managed to create a pro scene to it. Damn clueless people they are! Here, have my flamethrower. On March 15 2012 22:35 ShadeR wrote: You kids have no idea. LoL has Kim Carrier and Hong Jin Ho. Korea is really taking LoL seriously, huh. and 'lol' @indoorspawningpool looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool | ||
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shaftofpleasure
Korea (North)1375 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
We can skip the whole silly cop out debate of "blind fanboyism / hate" since it's necessary. I've 300 hours played of the silly game and it's obviously fun. But casual garbage that is trying to be called competitive is a joke. This will only be proven when koreans play 8-10 hours a day for this league. So, you haven't heard of the OGN's "The Champions" yet, have you? Guess people are in for a surprise pretty soon. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
On March 15 2012 22:11 Cel.erity wrote: This analogy does not work, since you are comparing two completely different things. DotA contains basically every element of LoL while LoL does not contain every element of DotA. In your analogy, it is more like soccer vs kickball. In kickball, you kick a ball and run. In soccer, you also pretty much just kick a ball and run, but you also have to be a lot more aware of what's going on and the other players. It is a deeper game that requires a similar skillset. If you're good at DotA/soccer, you will be good at LoL/kickball, but the reverse is certainly not true. Any game can be competitive; just because it is a simpler game does not mean it still doesn't require teamwork, and good awareness. I think basketball certainly requires less mechanical skill than baseball, but that doesn't necessarily mean they can't coexist as competitive sports. I still admire anyone who puts the time in to be at the top of either game. However, it is undeniable that it requires a lot more work to be at the top in DotA, where there is a much larger competitive scene and the players are more skilled in general from playing their game for 4+ years longer than LoL has existed. Well, the free climbing here would be your starcraft BW and soccer would be your moba game ... so think about the analogy from that point of view instead... people are certainly more IMPRESSED immediately by a fantastic free climber because they do something so obviously amazing to the inexperienced...but it doesn't mean it's any easier to become the best soccer player in the world. As for having LoL be the equivalent of kickball, that's just downsizing the complexity of LoL. Thing is, LoL has several elements that don't exist in dota, and not just the other way around. You are quite right in that the dota competitive scene is just much stronger because it's been OUT longer and people generally perceive themselves as competitive gamers more. That says very little about the potential of the game though and I think we both know this. | ||
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