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On March 15 2012 08:21 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 08:06 taintmachine wrote:On March 15 2012 07:49 Juicyfruit wrote:
A lot of these comments I feel are just blatant lies, but I won't bother to point them out.
For me, Dota is only superficially harder than LoL. There are aspects of it that makes the game more punishing and mechanically demanding, but none of which exactly equate it to being a better competitive game. At the end of the day, your competition is OTHER PEOPLE, which all play the same game.
No one would agree that soccer would be a better sport if they added patches of ice and spikes randomly throughout the field, even though it would certainly add more difficulty and complexity (awesome that may be).
dota is not superficially harder than lol. i would argue that it is harder. you even say that it is harder in the post im quoting. there's more infromation to absorb, the map's design requires mastery of it (many, many more side paths along with the ability to exploit terrain differences), the neutral runes are harder to control, characters vary much more in terms of range, attack animations, attack speeds, etc (which are all more important because of last hitting and denying). bad decisions are punished more immediately in dota than lol. it is easy to use your mana poorly and that can push you out of a lane by itself. teleporting and buying back offer important choices to players that don't really exist in lol. i could go on with things that i feel make dota/dota 2 the harder game. you don't think difficulty makes for a more competitive game, but i do. i think largely we view competitive activities because of how good a small % of the population can be at something that is otherwise difficult for us. im not saying lol is not competitive enough to be appreciated, but i cannot see how competition and difficulty are separate. Because for every mechanic that you take away, it just requires more mastery of the mechanics that's left. Being able to do something, and doing it better than someone else are different concepts. Again, I bring you back to the soccer vs free climbing argument. It's considerably harder to be able to climb at all, vs kicking a ball, but that doesn't mean mastery of soccer is any more attainable than mastery of climbing (both essentially impossible to perform at perfection).
there are not a lot of similarities between free climbing and soccer besides requiring athleticism. the skillsets are otherwise different. i don't like comparing sc2 to lol, because while i consider sc2 harder than lol for the individual player, they are very different activities.
dota and lol are very similar, on the other hand.
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On March 15 2012 15:57 Ahwat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 20:21 Diizzy wrote:
i play lol alot but its not an esports game.... you cant watch it and be entertained. its almost impossible. I agree with you tbh, doesnt entertain me seems really stale to me.
What pros have you watched?
www.solomid.net
This place has a streaming section and I recommend watching Chaox/Westrice/Reginald whenever they play. They're very entertaining and are top professionals.
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On March 15 2012 15:58 cozzE wrote:
No LAN support has seriously cost Blizzard more than it would have if it had the shit pirated out of it.
Hahahahahah. Oh well. Blizzard deserve what they're copping now with a casual game taking the eSports throne.
Bit ironic that the king of casual games (Blizzard) is getting OutCasual'd by Riot Ganes.
What's even more funny is that LoL doesn't even have basic features like replays, saved games and pauses (last time I checked).
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On March 15 2012 16:03 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:25 Luepert wrote:
I think SC fans (of BW and SC2) need to unite. The conflict between the two communities is hurting starcraft as an esport. I think anyone, BW or SC2 can agree that any type of starcraft is better than LoL. I think BW fans are having a great time just watching SC2 fans complain about how casual LoL is.
I think this is pretty accurate >_>
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On March 15 2012 13:50 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 10:02 Ferric wrote:
If the game is so easy, I'd invite any player to get to level 30 and maintain a 70% win rate in ranked. That amount of time should be more than sufficient if the game is so easy to learn, and maintaining a 70% win rate shouldn't be a big deal if the game is so easy to play. Post results from date of start, date of 30, and date of final w/l ratio, and I'm sure you'll convince the community what an easy game it is. thats a pretty retarded thing to say just because its easy doesnt give you higher win ratio because its easier for your opponent aswell. if anything the easier the game the closer everyone is to 50% by default i dont think blizzard is doing anything terribly wrong which is the result of this. ever since i started playing games like diablo, dota and wow were always more popular than lets say bw or wc3. i think lol is just the right type of game and got released at the right time. and the way they are advertising the game and so on is what makes it explode. i dont know much about the game but i heard its free and everyone knows what this game is, sounds like they are pretty much on the ball i dont think lol really threats sc2 to get killed or anything like that as long as we keep up as many viewers and people we have right now. so no need to hate on that game. my personal opinion is i think its stupid a game like that can be called an esport but who am i to decide that really this game is perhaps exactly whats needed to make esport mainstream, and after a while people will realize games like sc2 are much more fun to watch, more balanced and takes a much higher skill to play. then sc2 might finally become as big as day9 is dreaming of ^^ i think blizzard has some things to learn from lol on how to advertise and get the game popular, aswell as bring out the esport side of it and show it to the world
More balanced and takes much higher skill. Makes me laugh. I understand your point of view as a professional player in SC2, but the fact of the matter is that League of Legends has had a substantial following for a reason, and alot of it has to do with the fact that their game not only just appeals to the masses, but it is of high enough quality to grow its population. You cannot say the same for Starcraft 2.
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On March 15 2012 14:28 IMoperator wrote:
LoL is basically like Call of Duty while SC2/BW is like CS:S or 1.6. It's way more popular because it's easier to get into, and everybody is "good". It doesn't take as much work to be good at LoL than it does as Starcraft. People don't like working hard, especially for games. Sadly this is the road gaming is going down. It's just gonna get easier and easier.
this is obviously why 75% of the players are below bronze rank in LoL
so easy to be good at
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On March 15 2012 16:06 Taku wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 16:03 sluggaslamoo wrote:On March 15 2012 05:25 Luepert wrote:
I think SC fans (of BW and SC2) need to unite. The conflict between the two communities is hurting starcraft as an esport. I think anyone, BW or SC2 can agree that any type of starcraft is better than LoL. I think BW fans are having a great time just watching SC2 fans complain about how casual LoL is. I think this is pretty accurate >_>
Lol, this is so true. I'm laughing to myself at the hypocrisy going on. Even though DotA >>>>> HoN > LoL, casual wins out. Just like SC2 and BW!
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I find funny that SC2 players call LoL casual players, when for the BW players SC2 are total casual players.
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its just hard to watch a 5v5. ur always gonna miss sht.
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The idea of SC2 as a "casual" game always made me laugh.
Much of the mechanical difficulty of BW came from the limitations that accompanied game development 15 years ago but for a title released in 2010 SC2's lack of casual support is staggering.
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On March 15 2012 13:59 RajaF wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 13:56 Leporello wrote:On March 15 2012 13:44 dtz wrote:On March 15 2012 13:24 Leporello wrote:
Also who're the best LoL players? How would you even know that, since it's a team game? Is there such a thing as bonjwa in a team game? You need your Michael Jordans and Kobe Bryants, if you really want that sport-like status.
uh did you read what you wrote? What a puzzling back to back contradictory sentences. Just FYI, Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played in a team game too.. This is when comparing sports to e-sports doesn't match. Michael Jordan dominated basketball. You can not argue that he was the best player in the world for his era. So who, then, is the best LoL player in the world? Most LoL players I know would actually say that's a stupid question with no answer. So I don't feel my comparison was totally inappropriate. Sports need story-lines, and story-lines need faces and personalities. SC2 has had that with MVP, MC, and Nestea. Flash and The Emperor? Who is going to give LoL that kind of identity? M5? I don't think so. But this is going outside my original point, which is that LoL simply isn't as engrossing to watch as SC2. So Jordan could of won all those titles by himself huh. No need for the other four guys on the team (which btw are almost as famous as Jordan is). And considering the massive ammounts of viewers that actually watch LoL compared to SC2, I would say that your original point is already invalid. [/b]
They are no where near as famous as jordan is lol. Jordan is known worldwide whereas these players are known only to a few certain games.
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On March 15 2012 16:26 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 13:59 RajaF wrote:On March 15 2012 13:56 Leporello wrote:On March 15 2012 13:44 dtz wrote:On March 15 2012 13:24 Leporello wrote:
Also who're the best LoL players? How would you even know that, since it's a team game? Is there such a thing as bonjwa in a team game? You need your Michael Jordans and Kobe Bryants, if you really want that sport-like status.
uh did you read what you wrote? What a puzzling back to back contradictory sentences. Just FYI, Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played in a team game too.. This is when comparing sports to e-sports doesn't match. Michael Jordan dominated basketball. You can not argue that he was the best player in the world for his era. So who, then, is the best LoL player in the world? Most LoL players I know would actually say that's a stupid question with no answer. So I don't feel my comparison was totally inappropriate. Sports need story-lines, and story-lines need faces and personalities. SC2 has had that with MVP, MC, and Nestea. Flash and The Emperor? Who is going to give LoL that kind of identity? M5? I don't think so. But this is going outside my original point, which is that LoL simply isn't as engrossing to watch as SC2. So Jordan could of won all those titles by himself huh. No need for the other four guys on the team (which btw are almost as famous as Jordan is). And considering the massive ammounts of viewers that actually watch LoL compared to SC2, I would say that your original point is already invalid. They are no where near as famous as jordan is lol. Jordan is known worldwide whereas these players are known only to a few certain games. [/b]
His point still stands, Jordan needed roleplayers to win those Championships. As good as Michael Jordan was it is unlikely that he would have carried bad teams to Championships.
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On March 14 2012 20:46 zalz wrote:
LoL is more difficult than SC2 for the very simple reason that you are dealing with 5v5 people.
It isn't just learning what is what, what works, what doesn't, etc, etc, etc. It is about working together and playing off one another.
That adds a layer of complexity that just doesn't exist in SC2 and probably never will.
But if it is such a noob casual easy game, feel free to jump over and steal that 2 million dollar prize. Must be a steal right? It is so easy.
ROFL, no, just no....
Team based games also have the problem of playing with others that might either be straight up bad or you lose a game because someone on your team fucked up.
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The realistic point is that SC2 will eventually lose a majority of it's popularity and has thus far. I'm sure we could use statistics to verify that such withdrawals are taking place. It's extremely sad to see but it's the truth nonetheless. I truely believe that the main reason for the games growth is not because of how easy it is to play but more of the fact that it's free, as I pointed out earlier. This is how Brood War became so popular as well. Public free servers, BrainClan, Fish Server, Iccup, PGTour that allowed people to play without CD keys. Also, the fact that it's a team-based game means that if you lose, you won't be the only one with "weight" on your shoulders so don't feel as much pressure as you do from playing a basic game of StarCraft. I haven't played LOL but I've heard that the games are usually rather long. Not sure if you can cheese on the game but it certainly does mean less headache if you can't. Also, instead of trying to become the best player in the world, you try to become the best team and as a team it's motivating rather then you being a solo player being backed by a clan. My Korean friend told me about LOLs growth about 6 months before this thread was made and the focal point of it was the fact that it was free, easy to play and somewhat fun. I believe that it's these three fundamentals that contributed to it's growth. Ask yourselves, how popular would sc2 be if it was free?
Har har har
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On March 15 2012 16:32 cydial wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 20:46 zalz wrote:
LoL is more difficult than SC2 for the very simple reason that you are dealing with 5v5 people.
It isn't just learning what is what, what works, what doesn't, etc, etc, etc. It is about working together and playing off one another.
That adds a layer of complexity that just doesn't exist in SC2 and probably never will.
But if it is such a noob casual easy game, feel free to jump over and steal that 2 million dollar prize. Must be a steal right? It is so easy. ROFL, no, just no.... Team based games also have the problem of playing with others that might either be straight up bad or you lose a game because someone on your team fucked up.
We are talking about competitive gaming. There is no element of luck on who you will be playing with, and shouldn't you lose when someone on your team fucks up?
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On March 15 2012 05:25 Luepert wrote:
I think SC fans (of BW and SC2) need to unite. The conflict between the two communities is hurting starcraft as an esport. I think anyone, BW or SC2 can agree that any type of starcraft is better than LoL.
Hell no, Idk about other BW fans but I'd take LoL over sc2 any day. It's a mockery that sc2 dares carry the same name as BW. LoL just chillin npnp. Not even the same genre.
I'm amazed at how elitist sc2 players are being. For a game so new..
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The fact that Lol have such huge fanbase is because its F2P model, really. You can't compare success of a game which cost something to buy, and a game which cost nothing. This is all i can say as an unbiased opinion.
Completely biased:
+ Show Spoiler +I never understood Dota/Hon/LoL and all others MOBA games or w/e. Just gameplay itself annoys me to shit, + its extremelly dull to watch it :/. And learning curve is much more softer (When i was trying lol, i managed to perform decent after 5-6 games, while it took me around 2 days to understand what to da in sc2.Just my opinion here tho.
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My experience with LoL as an e-sport has entirely revolved around streams. I play decently well (about 1 game a week but ~1400 rank) and so i looked up streams to see what strategies and builds they liked and why. The major conclusion I arrived at from this experience is that the personalities and accessibility of LoL pros are WAY better than SC2 pros. Before CLG went to Korea, players like SV would stream and talk for around 12 hours a day. Is this because they are abusing commercials for cash? Absolutely and the community LOVES it. SC2 pros are extremely unreliable with their content production. The only true example of LoL style availability I have seen in SC2 was Destiny before he had the baby and look at how well it has worked out for him.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On March 15 2012 16:31 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 16:26 BlazeFury01 wrote:On March 15 2012 13:59 RajaF wrote:On March 15 2012 13:56 Leporello wrote:On March 15 2012 13:44 dtz wrote:On March 15 2012 13:24 Leporello wrote:
Also who're the best LoL players? How would you even know that, since it's a team game? Is there such a thing as bonjwa in a team game? You need your Michael Jordans and Kobe Bryants, if you really want that sport-like status.
uh did you read what you wrote? What a puzzling back to back contradictory sentences. Just FYI, Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played in a team game too.. This is when comparing sports to e-sports doesn't match. Michael Jordan dominated basketball. You can not argue that he was the best player in the world for his era. So who, then, is the best LoL player in the world? Most LoL players I know would actually say that's a stupid question with no answer. So I don't feel my comparison was totally inappropriate. Sports need story-lines, and story-lines need faces and personalities. SC2 has had that with MVP, MC, and Nestea. Flash and The Emperor? Who is going to give LoL that kind of identity? M5? I don't think so. But this is going outside my original point, which is that LoL simply isn't as engrossing to watch as SC2. So Jordan could of won all those titles by himself huh. No need for the other four guys on the team (which btw are almost as famous as Jordan is). And considering the massive ammounts of viewers that actually watch LoL compared to SC2, I would say that your original point is already invalid. They are no where near as famous as jordan is lol. Jordan is known worldwide whereas these players are known only to a few certain games. His point still stands, Jordan needed roleplayers to win those Championships. As good as Michael Jordan was it is unlikely that he would have carried bad teams to Championships. [/b]
If you look at Jordan's statistics, it actually shows that he had his highest PER (player efficiency rating) years during the late 80s (when he won nothing), and significantly dropped off in PER during his championship years. Basically, Jordan was more successful when he had to do less (because of his teammates).
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EPT
