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On February 20 2012 03:09 Rainofpain wrote:
I think about it like this: If I want to get a gun to use it for a murder or something, do I really care if I am allowed to use it or not? Gun controls make it harder for the average citizen to obtain a defensive weapon that is effective and not too hard to use/take time to learn.
thats just stupid...noone really needs a gun to defend himself...and if guns would be strictly forbidden it wouldnt be that easy to get one even for a dedicated murderer - there would be the chance to catch him while trying and thus prevent the murder...guns schouldnt be allowed at all !
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On July 21 2012 07:20 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:18 Leporello wrote:
Bottom-line, my last post, I'm tired of hypotheticals about how safe we'll be with more guns.
We have lots, and lots, and lots of guns. And the NRA folks want to see us have lots and lots and lots more.
We don't need hypotheticals. The results are speaking for themselves. Sometimes, like last night, the results scream. Colorado is a concealed-carry, gun-show state. They have freedom when it comes to the precious weaponry. The man doing the shooting owned several legally-purchased weapons. All our guns are made legally. They're all brought into our land, legally. So what do you have? Safety?
This country is fucked. So what, we just give up our rights every time someone goes crazy? I think it's sick that you people use the death of innocent people to push your stupid agenda's, You have no respect for the dead, you have no respect period.
I think Trayvon Martin wants to have a word with you about fuckin respect and even more so about stupid people. Oh wait, he cant. Some nutjob fuckin shot him to death.
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On July 21 2012 07:18 Leporello wrote:
Bottom-line, my last post, I'm tired of hypotheticals about how safe we'll be with more guns.
We have lots, and lots, and lots of guns. And the NRA folks want to see us have lots and lots and lots more.
We don't need hypotheticals. The results are speaking for themselves. Sometimes, like last night, the results scream. Colorado is a concealed-carry, gun-show state. They have freedom when it comes to the precious weaponry. The man doing the shooting owned several legally-purchased weapons. All our guns are made legally. They're all brought into our land, legally. So what do you have? Safety?
This country is fucked.
You do know that no guns were allowed inside the Cinema, right? Same with Ft. Hood, and every school in the country. Where do you think all these massacre's happen...in places where lawful ownership is forbidden. Guess the few cities in the country with the highest crime-rates? Chicago and D.C. have very very strict restrictions and they have the highest crime rates in the country. Before you come to an argument it helps to at least know what you are talking about. Besides, it is our natural right to defend ourselves, and own a weapon. Just ask the Jew's how that disarmament went...
www.JPFO.org
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On July 21 2012 07:18 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:08 Crushinator wrote:On July 21 2012 07:03 Le BucheRON wrote:
Step 1. Call police
Step 2. Get out gun
Step 3. Make sure family is safe.
Step 4. Wait for police unless you or family are not safe. If you or family isn't, confront intruder.
*Gun could be replaced with baseball bat or knife, but I think a shotgun would be more effective.
Are there any people who would argue I should do something differently? I'm not a cowboy just waiting, gun in hand, for an excuse to blow away an intruder. That seems right to me. And then your family gets shot by an intruder because he had easy access to guns.
You really do not understand the US, lol. If guns were outlawed the bad guys would still get them. Drugs are outlawed and we use them more than any other country in the world.
It's a controlled chaos kind of thing. There are almost as many guns as people in this country, crime rate in inner cities are very high, and shit like this happens all the time but we continue to be the most influential country in the world.
No matter how many of you people tell us to change it's not going to happen lol.
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On July 21 2012 07:23 TheFish7 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:17 storm8ring3r wrote:
so too bad there was noone with a concealed carry license in the crowd. It would not have made any difference, he was wearing full body armor.
Just to be argumentative, if the entire crowd got up and unloaded on him he would of went down.
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On July 21 2012 07:23 Kogan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 03:09 Rainofpain wrote:
I think about it like this: If I want to get a gun to use it for a murder or something, do I really care if I am allowed to use it or not? Gun controls make it harder for the average citizen to obtain a defensive weapon that is effective and not too hard to use/take time to learn. thats just stupid...noone really needs a gun to defend himself...and if guns would be strictly forbidden it wouldnt be that easy to get one even for a dedicated murderer - there would be the chance to catch him while trying and thus prevent the murder...guns schouldnt be allowed at all !
Are you serious? Drugs are illegal and yet you can even buy it in fucking PRISON for god's sake.
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On July 21 2012 07:20 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:18 Leporello wrote:
Bottom-line, my last post, I'm tired of hypotheticals about how safe we'll be with more guns.
We have lots, and lots, and lots of guns. And the NRA folks want to see us have lots and lots and lots more.
We don't need hypotheticals. The results are speaking for themselves. Sometimes, like last night, the results scream. Colorado is a concealed-carry, gun-show state. They have freedom when it comes to the precious weaponry. The man doing the shooting owned several legally-purchased weapons. All our guns are made legally. They're all brought into our land, legally. So what do you have? Safety?
This country is fucked. So what, we just give up our rights every time someone goes crazy? I think it's sick that you people use the death of innocent people to push your stupid agenda's, You have no respect for the dead, you have no respect period.
I find this hilarious, considering you used the deaths of innocent children to ''push your agenda'' just a few pages back. Hypocrite.
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On July 21 2012 07:13 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:08 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 07:05 heliusx wrote:On July 21 2012 07:01 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 06:55 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:52 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 06:50 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:45 m4inbrain wrote:On July 21 2012 06:41 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:38 Abusion wrote:
[quote]
The problem I have with most people's ''pro gun'' arguments is they feel like they have a RIGHT to own a gun AND who should die and who shouldn't.
. 2. A person gives up their right to live when they threaten the lives of my family, IDK bout you but I have a spine and i'm certainly not just gonna lie down when the lives of my family at risk. I don't give a shit what the criminals "intentions" are, and I don't need to. The only thing I need to do is protect me and my own. I may even agree to you, if you were not an american who actually thinks that stealing a dvd player (or even being on your property) is a threat to your family. Funny thing is, i kinda feel threatend by you and i fear that my childs are in danger by your triggerhappiness. Should i come over and kill you, just in case? And btw, having a WEAPON in your house has nothing to do with spine. On the contrary, its spineless. WTF are you even talking about. What does a dvd player have to do with anything? Are you actually stupid enough to think that you know what a criminals intentions are? So let me get this straight. Your house gets broken into, by and unknown amount of people carrying god knows what, and you say to yourself.... "well, most of all criminal break in's are theft related, let me just crunch some numbers here and come up with....oh yea, 13.6% chance of these guys actually having a murderous intent, those are good odds I think i'll just go back to sleep and hope for the best" Some of you are so goddamn stupid it's actually baffling. So you think that a GROUP of people coming into your house with guns is gunna save you if you have a gun? Lets me just get that straight before I run into a wall because I've lost faith in humanity. You can't even read, what makes you think you know what they have? I said 'unknown amount of people carrying god knows what". The point is you don't waste time hoping that they are just there for a fucking tv because your families life is LITERALLY in danger. It's all too obvious that you don't have a family because you're more worried about arguing then making sense. Just for reference I do have a family. So do most people. If someone broke into my house I would phone the police not go down with a lethal weapon. If you have a gun the best case scenario is they don't have a gun and GREAT pro gun wins you've protected your family because they walk out because you've got a gun and they don't. Second case they call your bluff and jump you in your panic you shoot them and injure/kill them. If not, they beat you and take your gun. OR the most, most likely option in the US where anyone who robs anywhere has a gun. You come down with a gun there's a stand-off. ONE of you is going to die. I'd rather not everyone had guns to rob people with and rather not put someone's life in my hands. If you can't see the logic in that you never will. You clearly don't know anything about self defense with a firearm. Number 1 rule is that you will only confront wih a firearm in the event you plan on shooting them to death. There's no stand off. There's no hand to hand combat. There's you shooting them the second you see him until he stops moving. Real life isn't some video game or movie. Ok. So why do you have the right to chose whether he should die or not? Here's what wrong with your way of looking at this shit and for some reason always finding sympathy for a home intruder. YOU DID NOT MAKE THAT CHOICE, HE DID. I don't go home at night and think to myself, "goddamn i hope someone breaks into my house so i can kill that son of a bitch" it's something that happens (god forbid it ever happens, but it's something I'm sure every father has thought about) and you don't have a choice He is putting his life up against that of your families. I swear to god if you fall back on that stupid "he's just stealing a dvd player" argument I'm done with conversing with you.
I honestly feel this is more of a culture clash than a debate on whether it is right or wrong to carry guns.
Firstly, I have sympathy for human life. You don't know what's made him make that choice in his life except him. I feel that taking guns out of the equation make the whole situation less deadly but does not take lethality out of the equation however. This will be my last post I feel because I can't see it from both sides. I have grown up in a rough neighbourhood and it may not be the roughest but it certainly had its gangs/ gang culture. I have never seen/ heard about a robbery with a gun. I have heard about robberies with a knife. I find a robbery with a knife a lot better but still horrific than a robbery with a gun. I don't know how other people feel about this. I feel the USA can never outlaw guns because it is in there culture and the fact that the see it as their right (which it is) and to take away that right is to take away some of their freedom is pretty silly. I feel that I have freedom and I don't feel that having guns in my life would make me more-so.
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I used to think guns are the problem, but I am not so sure anymore. I think accessibility to guns makes it easier to do something horrible, and also let's someone do more damage than without a gun. But I don't think the guns cause more violence. This has more to do with social-economic issues, treatment of the mentally ill, glorification of violence, no social structure, and other issues in societies that should be addresses as well as gun control.
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Enthusiasts that like guns and don't use them for bad purposes should be able to, and they should be allowed for self defense.
It doesn't matter anyways, there is always someone who is bad and would get their hands on it, or someone who uses it for "self defense" and uses it for the wrong reasons. Guns legal or not, there is someone who will get their hands on it and use it the wrong way, so it doesn't really matter.
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On July 21 2012 07:20 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:18 Leporello wrote:
Bottom-line, my last post, I'm tired of hypotheticals about how safe we'll be with more guns.
We have lots, and lots, and lots of guns. And the NRA folks want to see us have lots and lots and lots more.
We don't need hypotheticals. The results are speaking for themselves. Sometimes, like last night, the results scream. Colorado is a concealed-carry, gun-show state. They have freedom when it comes to the precious weaponry. The man doing the shooting owned several legally-purchased weapons. All our guns are made legally. They're all brought into our land, legally. So what do you have? Safety?
This country is fucked. So what, we just give up our rights every time someone goes crazy? I think it's sick that you people use the death of innocent people to push your stupid agenda's, You have no respect for the dead, you have no respect period.
I think its sick you people ignore the mass murder of innocent people and defend the right for people to own automatic weapons. you have no respect for the dead, you have no respect period.
See what i did there? People like you make me fearful of allowing everyone to own dangerous weapons. You axt and think irrationally and overly emotionally and i wouldnt in a million years trust your judgment in a heated situation.
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Firearms only intention is to harm, it is not a tool, and should not be carried around by people if they wish to consider themselves civilized. If the law enforcement fail, a gun will not help you. Invest in the law enforcement, not in the judgement of individuals.
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On July 21 2012 07:23 TheFish7 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:17 storm8ring3r wrote:
so too bad there was noone with a concealed carry license in the crowd. It would not have made any difference, he was wearing full body armor.
Well, a competent shooter could have taken him out. Well trained and responsible gun owners are good people to have around.
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On July 21 2012 07:24 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:23 TheFish7 wrote:On July 21 2012 07:17 storm8ring3r wrote:
so too bad there was noone with a concealed carry license in the crowd. It would not have made any difference, he was wearing full body armor. Just to be argumentative, if the entire crowd got up and unloaded on him he would of went down.
Lots of people would still have died. You really expect a bunch of people to see someone shooting at them, in a room filled with smoke, to suddenly coordinate, remain calm, and aim well enough to kill this guys before he takes lives away? This argument is as silly as the argument that not having gun control laws make us safer.
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On July 21 2012 07:28 storm8ring3r wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:23 TheFish7 wrote:On July 21 2012 07:17 storm8ring3r wrote:
so too bad there was noone with a concealed carry license in the crowd. It would not have made any difference, he was wearing full body armor. Well, a competent shooter could have taken him out. Well trained and responsible gun owners are good people to have around.
Yes... He would have made a headshot in a dark theater with people running around while the man with the rifle/shotgun/handgun was unloading his rounds on anything that moved... He was wearing bulletproof vest/groin/neck protector...
Competent? Try Wyatt Earp.
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People should absolutely be allowed to own and carry personal protection firearms. This is just another example of why, and a great example of what kind of situation that those of us who 'go packing' do it to prevent.
For those of you who see the NRA as a 'lords of war' gun lobby organization.... Here is some info for you.
Because of the NRA our right to Keep and BEAR arms have been increasingly restored over last several years and more citizens are now free to carry firearms in more places since the year 1900. Yet, homicides, including homicides with firearms, as well as all other violent crime have been decreasing since 2006. Moreover, after a dramatic increase in firearms sales and ownership after the last Presidential election including an increase in first time firearms purchases and an increase in firearms carry permits, citizen disarmament zealots and organizations predicted that there would be a corresponding increase in homicides and other violent crime. However, the U.S. homicide rate decreased from 5.0 per 100,000 in 2009 to 4.8 per 100,000 in 2010 and all other violent crime decreased as well.
Preliminary data from 2011 shows all Violent Crime was down 6.4%, Murder down 5.7%, Rape down 5.1%, Robbery down 7.7%, and Aggravated Assault down 5.9%.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl08.xls
http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2011/december/crime-stats_121911/crime-stats_121911
By contrast, The United Kingdom enacted extreme firearms bans years ago, and gun crime in the U.K. has doubled in a decade.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6438601/Gun-crime-doubles-in-a-decade.html
It is no wonder that a Gallup Poll of October 26, 2011 found that 60% of those surveyed supported enforcing current gun laws more strictly and NOT pass any new laws while only 35% responded to enforce current gun laws more strictly and pass new gun control laws.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/150341/Record-Low-Favor-Handgun-Ban.aspx
Citizen disarmament zealots and their organizations ignore these inconvenient facts because they debunk their propaganda, deception.
Furthermore, the vast majority of law enforcement officers receive their firearms training from NRA Certified Instructors, and the NRA has numerous firearms safety, marksmanship, and self-defense training programs for civilians including their award winning Refuse To Be A Victim Program.
The NRA is far from being a "Criminal organization, and is, in fact, a criminal's worst enemy.
http://www.nrahq.org/law/index.asp
http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/
http://www.nrahq.org/education/index.asp
http://www.nrahq.org/women/index.asp
The national conversation in the US over the last few years has shifted more and more from being pro gun control because more and more people are waking up and realizing that the founding fathers were right... To be truly free and safe, each citizen can and should bear arms.
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On July 21 2012 07:24 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:23 TheFish7 wrote:On July 21 2012 07:17 storm8ring3r wrote:
so too bad there was noone with a concealed carry license in the crowd. It would not have made any difference, he was wearing full body armor. Just to be argumentative, if the entire crowd got up and unloaded on him he would of went down.
Try shooting through smokes bombs without hitting other people. If more shooters had started to try to shoot the main perpetrator, all hell would've broken loose and no one would've known who was who.
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On July 21 2012 07:28 Icarox wrote:
Firearms only intention is to harm, it is not a tool, and should not be carried around by people if they wish to consider themselves civilized. If the law enforcement fail, a gun will not help you. Invest in the law enforcement, not in the judgement of individuals.
And police officers aren't individuals? After Rodney King and whole host of other beatings and killings, and our own DoJ running guns to Mexican cartels, as well as mass-corruption with the Police (See: Serpico), you trust them? Lol. Police and the Government kill more people than 'citizens' do. If you are going to disarm anyone, disarm them.
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On July 21 2012 07:29 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:28 storm8ring3r wrote:On July 21 2012 07:23 TheFish7 wrote:On July 21 2012 07:17 storm8ring3r wrote:
so too bad there was noone with a concealed carry license in the crowd. It would not have made any difference, he was wearing full body armor. Well, a competent shooter could have taken him out. Well trained and responsible gun owners are good people to have around. Yes... He would have made a headshot in a dark theater with people running around while the man with the rifle/shotgun/handgun was unloading his rounds on anything that moved... He was wearing bulletproof vest/groin/neck protector... Competent? Try Wyatt Earp.
Well, kevlar armor isn't all purpose bullet repellent. Get hit in the chest with a 9mm slug from 30 feet away even with armor on and you're probably gonna drop like a rock.
edit: actually maybe with enough trauma plating...but he'd have to be one equipped son of a bitch.
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On July 21 2012 07:30 StarStrider wrote:People should absolutely be allowed to own and carry personal protection firearms. This is just another example of why, and a great example of what kind of situation that those of us who 'go packing' do it to prevent. For those of you who see the NRA as a 'lords of war' gun lobby organization.... Here is some info for you. Because of the NRA our right to Keep and BEAR arms have been increasingly restored over last several years and more citizens are now free to carry firearms in more places since the year 1900. Yet, homicides, including homicides with firearms, as well as all other violent crime have been decreasing since 2006. Moreover, after a dramatic increase in firearms sales and ownership after the last Presidential election including an increase in first time firearms purchases and an increase in firearms carry permits, citizen disarmament zealots and organizations predicted that there would be a corresponding increase in homicides and other violent crime. However, the U.S. homicide rate decreased from 5.0 per 100,000 in 2009 to 4.8 per 100,000 in 2010 and all other violent crime decreased as well. Preliminary data from 2011 shows all Violent Crime was down 6.4%, Murder down 5.7%, Rape down 5.1%, Robbery down 7.7%, and Aggravated Assault down 5.9%. http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl08.xls http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2011/december/crime-stats_121911/crime-stats_121911 By contrast, The United Kingdom enacted extreme firearms bans years ago, and gun crime in the U.K. has doubled in a decade. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6438601/Gun-crime-doubles-in-a-decade.html It is no wonder that a Gallup Poll of October 26, 2011 found that 60% of those surveyed supported enforcing current gun laws more strictly and NOT pass any new laws while only 35% responded to enforce current gun laws more strictly and pass new gun control laws. http://www.gallup.com/poll/150341/Record-Low-Favor-Handgun-Ban.aspx Citizen disarmament zealots and their organizations ignore these inconvenient facts because they debunk their propaganda, deception. Furthermore, the vast majority of law enforcement officers receive their firearms training from NRA Certified Instructors, and the NRA has numerous firearms safety, marksmanship, and self-defense training programs for civilians including their award winning Refuse To Be A Victim Program. The NRA is far from being a "Criminal organization, and is, in fact, a criminal's worst enemy. http://www.nrahq.org/law/index.asp http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/ http://www.nrahq.org/education/index.asp http://www.nrahq.org/women/index.aspThe national conversation in the US over the last few years has shifted more and more from being pro gun control because more and more people are waking up and realizing that the founding fathers were right... To be truly free and safe, each citizen can and should bear arms.
I'm tired of hearing about what the founding fathers thought, not only were they alive nigh 200-300 years ago, but our country shouldn't be based on what a few guys thought was right a long ass time ago.
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