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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On July 21 2012 07:03 Le BucheRON wrote:
Step 1. Call police
Step 2. Get out gun
Step 3. Make sure family is safe.
Step 4. Wait for police unless you or family are not safe. If you or family isn't, confront intruder.
*Gun could be replaced with baseball bat or knife, but I think a shotgun would be more effective.
Are there any people who would argue I should do something differently? I'm not a cowboy just waiting, gun in hand, for an excuse to blow away an intruder.
That seems right to me.
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On July 21 2012 07:04 Leth0 wrote:
It's actually getting humorous how many anti gun fanatics fall back on the "criminals only steal tv.s nobody ever gets hurt" as if that even make's sense in our world with all the crazy fucked up shit that psychopaths are doing to people every day.
That mostly goes for america, and youre not the world. Over here in germany (as you kindly ignored), we had (IF we had them at all) 5 cases of what you tell us is "normal" in the us - over the last at least 15 years.
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On the one hand guns kill people (contrary to popular belief). On the other hand, cops need something to do and prisons need to make money and the news needs stuff to report on and the people need stuff to talk about.
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On July 21 2012 07:08 Abusion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:05 heliusx wrote:On July 21 2012 07:01 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 06:55 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:52 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 06:50 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:45 m4inbrain wrote:On July 21 2012 06:41 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:38 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 06:34 Portlandian wrote:
[quote]
Great idea. Let's just rely on the kindheartedness of criminals.
The most frigtening thing I find about leftist ideology is it is apparent leftists put themselves in the shoes of the criminal when imagining these scenarios, not the innocent victim. The problem I have with most people's ''pro gun'' arguments is they feel like they have a RIGHT to own a gun AND who should die and who shouldn't. . 2. A person gives up their right to live when they threaten the lives of my family, IDK bout you but I have a spine and i'm certainly not just gonna lie down when the lives of my family at risk. I don't give a shit what the criminals "intentions" are, and I don't need to. The only thing I need to do is protect me and my own. I may even agree to you, if you were not an american who actually thinks that stealing a dvd player (or even being on your property) is a threat to your family. Funny thing is, i kinda feel threatend by you and i fear that my childs are in danger by your triggerhappiness. Should i come over and kill you, just in case? And btw, having a WEAPON in your house has nothing to do with spine. On the contrary, its spineless. WTF are you even talking about. What does a dvd player have to do with anything? Are you actually stupid enough to think that you know what a criminals intentions are? So let me get this straight. Your house gets broken into, by and unknown amount of people carrying god knows what, and you say to yourself.... "well, most of all criminal break in's are theft related, let me just crunch some numbers here and come up with....oh yea, 13.6% chance of these guys actually having a murderous intent, those are good odds I think i'll just go back to sleep and hope for the best" Some of you are so goddamn stupid it's actually baffling. So you think that a GROUP of people coming into your house with guns is gunna save you if you have a gun? Lets me just get that straight before I run into a wall because I've lost faith in humanity. You can't even read, what makes you think you know what they have? I said 'unknown amount of people carrying god knows what". The point is you don't waste time hoping that they are just there for a fucking tv because your families life is LITERALLY in danger. It's all too obvious that you don't have a family because you're more worried about arguing then making sense. Just for reference I do have a family. So do most people. If someone broke into my house I would phone the police not go down with a lethal weapon. If you have a gun the best case scenario is they don't have a gun and GREAT pro gun wins you've protected your family because they walk out because you've got a gun and they don't. Second case they call your bluff and jump you in your panic you shoot them and injure/kill them. If not, they beat you and take your gun. OR the most, most likely option in the US where anyone who robs anywhere has a gun. You come down with a gun there's a stand-off. ONE of you is going to die. I'd rather not everyone had guns to rob people with and rather not put someone's life in my hands. If you can't see the logic in that you never will. You clearly don't know anything about self defense with a firearm. Number 1 rule is that you will only confront wih a firearm in the event you plan on shooting them to death. There's no stand off. There's no hand to hand combat. There's you shooting them the second you see him until he stops moving. Real life isn't some video game or movie. Ok. So why do you have the right to chose whether he should die or not?
The law. Not that I need the law to tell me I'm ok to shoot someone who invades my home. If you want to be passive to someone trying to harm you that's your choice. I'm not going to let my family be victimized because I'm a man living in the real world. Not some fantasy where criminals follow 5he rules.
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On July 21 2012 06:55 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 06:50 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:45 m4inbrain wrote:On July 21 2012 06:41 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:38 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 06:34 Portlandian wrote:On July 21 2012 06:25 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 06:21 MaestroSC wrote:On July 21 2012 06:16 Mephtral wrote:On July 21 2012 05:52 prochobo wrote:
[quote]
Comission of a felony. Check.
Life in danger. Check.
Shoot the bastard.
You know that in order to carry legally, you have to undergo training? And how was this guy risking the lives of the people inside any more than the two bad guys?
What if, what if, what if. What if the bad guys just came in and shot everyone in the face? Is that better than a man preventing the potential deaths of others by lawfully reacting with deadly force?
The only thing I see questionable is him continuing to fire after the threat was over. But the DA has no argument because people get caught up in the heat of the moment and to the defender, as long as they were in sight, they were probably a threat to his life. Sorry, you dont know if their lives was in danger, he had a gun, maybe it wasn't loaded, maybe it's a fake gun, Maybe the kid running in with the gun is way to scared to actually use it to kill someone? i get it, it's logical to assume your life is in danger, but you actually dont have a clue. If they run in and start shooting people, people will die, even if everyone in that room had guns, a shit ton of people would've been hurt, possibly killed. no matter how many guns, that will not change! You have to undergo training yes, however you say it yourself later, People get caught in the heat of the moment, so they shouldn't be carrying guns.. Put everyones life in danger to protect some money. Check.. that's all he did. And you know very well that the scenario you're talking about is much less likely then someone robbing someone, please, tell me you realise that.. i'll make it very simple: in a normal situation, where guns are not allowed this is most likely to happen: Someone with a gun threatens people, and take their money, then he runs away. That's it. in a normal situation, when guns are allowed and someone decies to use it, this is likely to happen: Someone panics, take out their gun, and start shooting at the robber, if they hit, fine, it's over, they KILLED someone to protect money, if they miss, then everyone in that room is in danger, either he runs, or he starts shooting at anyone he can see or a combination of both.. The idiot that starts shooting somehow got the authority to put everyones life in danger, how the hell is that right? If someone is going into a crowd of people and want to kill people, they will kill people, it's actually very rare that people try to do shit like that, but it's not rare that someone tries to steal stuff. I seriously cannot understand how anyone can think that way.. "Well if i have a gun, i can shoot the guy that tries to shoot people, so that has to be good", it's not a fucking video game, so stop trying to be a "hero"... you're risking peoples lives,perhaps for no real reason at all, not only your own life. and YOU dont understand the idea of a "deterrent". How many people do you think are going to be committing armed robbery, when every single citizen around them is on the same playing field they are. People commit ARMED robbery, because they know THEY have a gun and are at an advantage over the masses of people/storeowners who dont. Do you think a criminal would break into a convenience store where he knows there is an armed security guard? or where he knows there is a store clerk with a gun behind the counter, and no hesitation to use it? now do you think a single man with a gun would try to rob a collective of 20+ armed citizens? NO. Because when everyone has a gun, having a gun as your only advantage is futile and no longer existant. People like you are so fucking ignorant its mind blowing. Do you really think people who commit armed robbery arent banking on the fact that he will be the only one armed? ofcourse he does or he wouldnt bring a gun. he would show up to the counter with his fists raised yelling "give me your money or ill punch you" They have a gun that they won't need to use if someone else doesn't have a gun. That's what it's all about. If he robs somewhere where everyone has a gun the robbers will die. If he robs somewhere where no-one else has a gun no-one dies. Its about people's lives here not the material things that aren't worth a human life. Great idea. Let's just rely on the kindheartedness of criminals. The most frigtening thing I find about leftist ideology is it is apparent leftists put themselves in the shoes of the criminal when imagining these scenarios, not the innocent victim. The problem I have with most people's ''pro gun'' arguments is they feel like they have a RIGHT to own a gun AND who should die and who shouldn't. . 2. A person gives up their right to live when they threaten the lives of my family, IDK bout you but I have a spine and i'm certainly not just gonna lie down when the lives of my family at risk. I don't give a shit what the criminals "intentions" are, and I don't need to. The only thing I need to do is protect me and my own. I may even agree to you, if you were not an american who actually thinks that stealing a dvd player (or even being on your property) is a threat to your family. Funny thing is, i kinda feel threatend by you and i fear that my childs are in danger by your triggerhappiness. Should i come over and kill you, just in case? And btw, having a WEAPON in your house has nothing to do with spine. On the contrary, its spineless. WTF are you even talking about. What does a dvd player have to do with anything? Are you actually stupid enough to think that you know what a criminals intentions are? So let me get this straight. Your house gets broken into, by and unknown amount of people carrying god knows what, and you say to yourself.... "well, most of all criminal break in's are theft related, let me just crunch some numbers here and come up with....oh yea, 13.6% chance of these guys actually having a murderous intent, those are good odds I think i'll just go back to sleep and hope for the best" Some of you are so goddamn stupid it's actually baffling. Don't shoot anyone unless you are actually in danger. Call the fucking police. Do not confront anyone. Don't put on your cowboy hat and shoot a bunch of unarmed teenagers carrying a television. It isn't difficult.
and this is when i learned that every single person who ever broke into a house or committed home invasion was:
a teenager and his friends,
and they only want my tv
holy shit if we just put a free tv by the front door,
maybe there will never be a home invasion ever again, because its just teenagers who want my tv
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On July 21 2012 07:08 Abusion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:05 heliusx wrote:On July 21 2012 07:01 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 06:55 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:52 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 06:50 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:45 m4inbrain wrote:On July 21 2012 06:41 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:38 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 06:34 Portlandian wrote:
[quote]
Great idea. Let's just rely on the kindheartedness of criminals.
The most frigtening thing I find about leftist ideology is it is apparent leftists put themselves in the shoes of the criminal when imagining these scenarios, not the innocent victim. The problem I have with most people's ''pro gun'' arguments is they feel like they have a RIGHT to own a gun AND who should die and who shouldn't. . 2. A person gives up their right to live when they threaten the lives of my family, IDK bout you but I have a spine and i'm certainly not just gonna lie down when the lives of my family at risk. I don't give a shit what the criminals "intentions" are, and I don't need to. The only thing I need to do is protect me and my own. I may even agree to you, if you were not an american who actually thinks that stealing a dvd player (or even being on your property) is a threat to your family. Funny thing is, i kinda feel threatend by you and i fear that my childs are in danger by your triggerhappiness. Should i come over and kill you, just in case? And btw, having a WEAPON in your house has nothing to do with spine. On the contrary, its spineless. WTF are you even talking about. What does a dvd player have to do with anything? Are you actually stupid enough to think that you know what a criminals intentions are? So let me get this straight. Your house gets broken into, by and unknown amount of people carrying god knows what, and you say to yourself.... "well, most of all criminal break in's are theft related, let me just crunch some numbers here and come up with....oh yea, 13.6% chance of these guys actually having a murderous intent, those are good odds I think i'll just go back to sleep and hope for the best" Some of you are so goddamn stupid it's actually baffling. So you think that a GROUP of people coming into your house with guns is gunna save you if you have a gun? Lets me just get that straight before I run into a wall because I've lost faith in humanity. You can't even read, what makes you think you know what they have? I said 'unknown amount of people carrying god knows what". The point is you don't waste time hoping that they are just there for a fucking tv because your families life is LITERALLY in danger. It's all too obvious that you don't have a family because you're more worried about arguing then making sense. Just for reference I do have a family. So do most people. If someone broke into my house I would phone the police not go down with a lethal weapon. If you have a gun the best case scenario is they don't have a gun and GREAT pro gun wins you've protected your family because they walk out because you've got a gun and they don't. Second case they call your bluff and jump you in your panic you shoot them and injure/kill them. If not, they beat you and take your gun. OR the most, most likely option in the US where anyone who robs anywhere has a gun. You come down with a gun there's a stand-off. ONE of you is going to die. I'd rather not everyone had guns to rob people with and rather not put someone's life in my hands. If you can't see the logic in that you never will. You clearly don't know anything about self defense with a firearm. Number 1 rule is that you will only confront wih a firearm in the event you plan on shooting them to death. There's no stand off. There's no hand to hand combat. There's you shooting them the second you see him until he stops moving. Real life isn't some video game or movie. Ok. So why do you have the right to chose whether he should die or not?
Here's what wrong with your way of looking at this shit and for some reason always finding sympathy for a home intruder.
YOU DID NOT MAKE THAT CHOICE, HE DID.
I don't go home at night and think to myself, "goddamn i hope someone breaks into my house so i can kill that son of a bitch" it's something that happens (god forbid it ever happens, but it's something I'm sure every father has thought about) and you don't have a choice He is putting his life up against that of your families.
I swear to god if you fall back on that stupid "he's just stealing a dvd player" argument I'm done with conversing with you.
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On July 21 2012 07:04 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:02 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 06:57 xrapture wrote:
No one is going to tell me I can't have a gun in my home to protect myself and my family and that's the bottom line. And that's the problem  You can't debate whether its a good idea or not, you blindly accept your RIGHT and defend it at all costs. Yep, and I'll damn well guarantee you it's while we'll never be invaded. 
If your country is invaded your Smith & Wesson is not going to save you. If you look at most countries that have been invaded recently they've had an abundant supply of assault rifles and that didn't exactly make anyone think twice.
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On July 21 2012 07:12 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 06:55 Crushinator wrote:On July 21 2012 06:50 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:45 m4inbrain wrote:On July 21 2012 06:41 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:38 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 06:34 Portlandian wrote:On July 21 2012 06:25 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 06:21 MaestroSC wrote:On July 21 2012 06:16 Mephtral wrote:
[quote]
Sorry, you dont know if their lives was in danger, he had a gun, maybe it wasn't loaded, maybe it's a fake gun, Maybe the kid running in with the gun is way to scared to actually use it to kill someone? i get it, it's logical to assume your life is in danger, but you actually dont have a clue.
If they run in and start shooting people, people will die, even if everyone in that room had guns, a shit ton of people would've been hurt, possibly killed. no matter how many guns, that will not change!
You have to undergo training yes, however you say it yourself later, People get caught in the heat of the moment, so they shouldn't be carrying guns..
Put everyones life in danger to protect some money. Check.. that's all he did.
And you know very well that the scenario you're talking about is much less likely then someone robbing someone, please, tell me you realise that..
i'll make it very simple:
in a normal situation, where guns are not allowed this is most likely to happen:
Someone with a gun threatens people, and take their money, then he runs away.
That's it.
in a normal situation, when guns are allowed and someone decies to use it, this is likely to happen:
Someone panics, take out their gun, and start shooting at the robber, if they hit, fine, it's over, they KILLED someone to protect money, if they miss, then everyone in that room is in danger, either he runs, or he starts shooting at anyone he can see or a combination of both..
The idiot that starts shooting somehow got the authority to put everyones life in danger, how the hell is that right?
If someone is going into a crowd of people and want to kill people, they will kill people, it's actually very rare that people try to do shit like that, but it's not rare that someone tries to steal stuff.
I seriously cannot understand how anyone can think that way.. "Well if i have a gun, i can shoot the guy that tries to shoot people, so that has to be good", it's not a fucking video game, so stop trying to be a "hero"... you're risking peoples lives,perhaps for no real reason at all, not only your own life.
and YOU dont understand the idea of a "deterrent". How many people do you think are going to be committing armed robbery, when every single citizen around them is on the same playing field they are. People commit ARMED robbery, because they know THEY have a gun and are at an advantage over the masses of people/storeowners who dont. Do you think a criminal would break into a convenience store where he knows there is an armed security guard? or where he knows there is a store clerk with a gun behind the counter, and no hesitation to use it? now do you think a single man with a gun would try to rob a collective of 20+ armed citizens? NO. Because when everyone has a gun, having a gun as your only advantage is futile and no longer existant. People like you are so fucking ignorant its mind blowing. Do you really think people who commit armed robbery arent banking on the fact that he will be the only one armed? ofcourse he does or he wouldnt bring a gun. he would show up to the counter with his fists raised yelling "give me your money or ill punch you" They have a gun that they won't need to use if someone else doesn't have a gun. That's what it's all about. If he robs somewhere where everyone has a gun the robbers will die. If he robs somewhere where no-one else has a gun no-one dies. Its about people's lives here not the material things that aren't worth a human life. Great idea. Let's just rely on the kindheartedness of criminals. The most frigtening thing I find about leftist ideology is it is apparent leftists put themselves in the shoes of the criminal when imagining these scenarios, not the innocent victim. The problem I have with most people's ''pro gun'' arguments is they feel like they have a RIGHT to own a gun AND who should die and who shouldn't. . 2. A person gives up their right to live when they threaten the lives of my family, IDK bout you but I have a spine and i'm certainly not just gonna lie down when the lives of my family at risk. I don't give a shit what the criminals "intentions" are, and I don't need to. The only thing I need to do is protect me and my own. I may even agree to you, if you were not an american who actually thinks that stealing a dvd player (or even being on your property) is a threat to your family. Funny thing is, i kinda feel threatend by you and i fear that my childs are in danger by your triggerhappiness. Should i come over and kill you, just in case? And btw, having a WEAPON in your house has nothing to do with spine. On the contrary, its spineless. WTF are you even talking about. What does a dvd player have to do with anything? Are you actually stupid enough to think that you know what a criminals intentions are? So let me get this straight. Your house gets broken into, by and unknown amount of people carrying god knows what, and you say to yourself.... "well, most of all criminal break in's are theft related, let me just crunch some numbers here and come up with....oh yea, 13.6% chance of these guys actually having a murderous intent, those are good odds I think i'll just go back to sleep and hope for the best" Some of you are so goddamn stupid it's actually baffling. Don't shoot anyone unless you are actually in danger. Call the fucking police. Do not confront anyone. Don't put on your cowboy hat and shoot a bunch of unarmed teenagers carrying a television. It isn't difficult. and this is when i learned that every single person who ever broke into a house or committed home invasion was: a teenager and his friends, and they only want my tv holy shit if we just put a free tv by the front door, maybe there will never be a home invasion ever again, because its just teenagers who want my tv
Yeah thats totally what I said, you fucking idiot.
User was warned for this post
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On July 21 2012 07:13 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:08 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 07:05 heliusx wrote:On July 21 2012 07:01 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 06:55 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:52 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 06:50 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:45 m4inbrain wrote:On July 21 2012 06:41 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:38 Abusion wrote:
[quote]
The problem I have with most people's ''pro gun'' arguments is they feel like they have a RIGHT to own a gun AND who should die and who shouldn't.
. 2. A person gives up their right to live when they threaten the lives of my family, IDK bout you but I have a spine and i'm certainly not just gonna lie down when the lives of my family at risk. I don't give a shit what the criminals "intentions" are, and I don't need to. The only thing I need to do is protect me and my own. I may even agree to you, if you were not an american who actually thinks that stealing a dvd player (or even being on your property) is a threat to your family. Funny thing is, i kinda feel threatend by you and i fear that my childs are in danger by your triggerhappiness. Should i come over and kill you, just in case? And btw, having a WEAPON in your house has nothing to do with spine. On the contrary, its spineless. WTF are you even talking about. What does a dvd player have to do with anything? Are you actually stupid enough to think that you know what a criminals intentions are? So let me get this straight. Your house gets broken into, by and unknown amount of people carrying god knows what, and you say to yourself.... "well, most of all criminal break in's are theft related, let me just crunch some numbers here and come up with....oh yea, 13.6% chance of these guys actually having a murderous intent, those are good odds I think i'll just go back to sleep and hope for the best" Some of you are so goddamn stupid it's actually baffling. So you think that a GROUP of people coming into your house with guns is gunna save you if you have a gun? Lets me just get that straight before I run into a wall because I've lost faith in humanity. You can't even read, what makes you think you know what they have? I said 'unknown amount of people carrying god knows what". The point is you don't waste time hoping that they are just there for a fucking tv because your families life is LITERALLY in danger. It's all too obvious that you don't have a family because you're more worried about arguing then making sense. Just for reference I do have a family. So do most people. If someone broke into my house I would phone the police not go down with a lethal weapon. If you have a gun the best case scenario is they don't have a gun and GREAT pro gun wins you've protected your family because they walk out because you've got a gun and they don't. Second case they call your bluff and jump you in your panic you shoot them and injure/kill them. If not, they beat you and take your gun. OR the most, most likely option in the US where anyone who robs anywhere has a gun. You come down with a gun there's a stand-off. ONE of you is going to die. I'd rather not everyone had guns to rob people with and rather not put someone's life in my hands. If you can't see the logic in that you never will. You clearly don't know anything about self defense with a firearm. Number 1 rule is that you will only confront wih a firearm in the event you plan on shooting them to death. There's no stand off. There's no hand to hand combat. There's you shooting them the second you see him until he stops moving. Real life isn't some video game or movie. Ok. So why do you have the right to chose whether he should die or not? Here's what wrong with your way of looking at this shit and for some reason always finding sympathy for a home intruder. YOU DID NOT MAKE THAT CHOICE, HE DID. I don't go home at night and think to myself, "goddamn i hope someone breaks into my house so i can kill that son of a bitch" it's something that happens (god forbid it ever happens, but it's something I'm sure every father has thought about) and you don't have a choice He is putting his life up against that of your families. I swear to god if you fall back on that stupid "he's just stealing a dvd player" argument I'm done with conversing with you.
That wasnt from him, actually.
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On July 21 2012 07:08 Abusion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:05 heliusx wrote:On July 21 2012 07:01 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 06:55 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:52 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 06:50 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:45 m4inbrain wrote:On July 21 2012 06:41 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:38 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 06:34 Portlandian wrote:
[quote]
Great idea. Let's just rely on the kindheartedness of criminals.
The most frigtening thing I find about leftist ideology is it is apparent leftists put themselves in the shoes of the criminal when imagining these scenarios, not the innocent victim. The problem I have with most people's ''pro gun'' arguments is they feel like they have a RIGHT to own a gun AND who should die and who shouldn't. . 2. A person gives up their right to live when they threaten the lives of my family, IDK bout you but I have a spine and i'm certainly not just gonna lie down when the lives of my family at risk. I don't give a shit what the criminals "intentions" are, and I don't need to. The only thing I need to do is protect me and my own. I may even agree to you, if you were not an american who actually thinks that stealing a dvd player (or even being on your property) is a threat to your family. Funny thing is, i kinda feel threatend by you and i fear that my childs are in danger by your triggerhappiness. Should i come over and kill you, just in case? And btw, having a WEAPON in your house has nothing to do with spine. On the contrary, its spineless. WTF are you even talking about. What does a dvd player have to do with anything? Are you actually stupid enough to think that you know what a criminals intentions are? So let me get this straight. Your house gets broken into, by and unknown amount of people carrying god knows what, and you say to yourself.... "well, most of all criminal break in's are theft related, let me just crunch some numbers here and come up with....oh yea, 13.6% chance of these guys actually having a murderous intent, those are good odds I think i'll just go back to sleep and hope for the best" Some of you are so goddamn stupid it's actually baffling. So you think that a GROUP of people coming into your house with guns is gunna save you if you have a gun? Lets me just get that straight before I run into a wall because I've lost faith in humanity. You can't even read, what makes you think you know what they have? I said 'unknown amount of people carrying god knows what". The point is you don't waste time hoping that they are just there for a fucking tv because your families life is LITERALLY in danger. It's all too obvious that you don't have a family because you're more worried about arguing then making sense. Just for reference I do have a family. So do most people. If someone broke into my house I would phone the police not go down with a lethal weapon. If you have a gun the best case scenario is they don't have a gun and GREAT pro gun wins you've protected your family because they walk out because you've got a gun and they don't. Second case they call your bluff and jump you in your panic you shoot them and injure/kill them. If not, they beat you and take your gun. OR the most, most likely option in the US where anyone who robs anywhere has a gun. You come down with a gun there's a stand-off. ONE of you is going to die. I'd rather not everyone had guns to rob people with and rather not put someone's life in my hands. If you can't see the logic in that you never will. You clearly don't know anything about self defense with a firearm. Number 1 rule is that you will only confront wih a firearm in the event you plan on shooting them to death. There's no stand off. There's no hand to hand combat. There's you shooting them the second you see him until he stops moving. Real life isn't some video game or movie. Ok. So why do you have the right to chose whether he should die or not?
He/she put you in that position when he/she broke into your home and endangered you and family. My life is always worth more than some unknown criminal sneaking around me and my kids. I'm not looking to kill anyone, but I will take their life if I need to save mine or my family's. That's just me.
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so too bad there was noone with a concealed carry license in the crowd.
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On July 21 2012 07:03 Carapas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 06:53 Portlandian wrote:On July 21 2012 06:44 nkr wrote:On July 21 2012 06:43 Yergidy wrote:
This has such a simple answer for me. Q: Who follows the laws? A: Ordinary citizens, not criminals. So a gun ban law would take guns out of the hands of people who would use it for defense while doing nothing to criminals because they already BREAK THE LAW. They will get guns if they want to anyway.. If most people you are going to rob don't have guns don't you think that having a gun would make you more persuasive? There are statistics that show that since DC passed a gun ban crime has actually INCREASED. "Hey look DC has a gun ban, now when I rob someone I have a much smaller chance of getting killed or shot when I take someones stuff!" How do you explain all the murders in the U.S compared to other ""civilized" countries. Are americans just people who like to murder, or is it actually linked to the number of weapons available to the people? Q: Who can carry a gun? A: Anyone Q: Who can be a murderer? A: Anyone White Americans commit murder at a rate about the same as White Swedish, White Canadians, White French, etc. The comparably high murder rate in America is because the USA is a diverse nation with drastically different demographics than most of Europe. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1Ak82.png) http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm Lol this is so racist, black people are not murderer, but because in the USA they come from poor ghettos they are more at risk of commiting murder simply because of they're environnement, you put the same black family in a rich suburb and they will be less likely to commit murder and vice-versa with whites in ghettos. So the problem the remains why do these ghetto kids get access to guns so easily?
No this is the truth, its not racist, I live in this, you can check Memphis, TN out and the murder rates and our rank in the country. This is very true and its not about profiling, its about the availability of guns in the U.S. Few other countries let their citizens have guns as big and powerful as the U.S. That and the fact that gang violence is quite high in many places does not help. The U.S. needs to start addressing violence and safety issues from small children at the beginning of their education by attempting to keep more kids in school and putting better influences within inner city and other impoverished area schools. Violence and gun laws are two very different things, but guns in general kill people. There were not huge massacres that happened nearly as frequently when people only had swords, there wasn't a 40+ person assault/kill spree every year or every other year.
EDIT: this is only about the U.S. I am knowleadgable about foreign countries issues.
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Bottom-line, my last post, I'm tired of hypotheticals about how safe we'll be with more guns.
We have lots, and lots, and lots of guns. And the NRA folks want to see us have lots and lots and lots more.
We don't need hypotheticals. The results are speaking for themselves. Sometimes, like last night, the results scream. Colorado is a concealed-carry, gun-show state. They have freedom when it comes to the precious weaponry. The man doing the shooting owned several legally-purchased weapons. All our guns are made legally. They're all brought into our land, legally. So what do you have? Safety?
This country is fucked.
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On July 21 2012 07:08 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:03 Le BucheRON wrote:
Step 1. Call police
Step 2. Get out gun
Step 3. Make sure family is safe.
Step 4. Wait for police unless you or family are not safe. If you or family isn't, confront intruder.
*Gun could be replaced with baseball bat or knife, but I think a shotgun would be more effective.
Are there any people who would argue I should do something differently? I'm not a cowboy just waiting, gun in hand, for an excuse to blow away an intruder. That seems right to me.
And then your family gets shot by an intruder because he had easy access to guns.
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On July 21 2012 07:13 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:08 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 07:05 heliusx wrote:On July 21 2012 07:01 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 06:55 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:52 Abusion wrote:On July 21 2012 06:50 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:45 m4inbrain wrote:On July 21 2012 06:41 Leth0 wrote:On July 21 2012 06:38 Abusion wrote:
[quote]
The problem I have with most people's ''pro gun'' arguments is they feel like they have a RIGHT to own a gun AND who should die and who shouldn't.
. 2. A person gives up their right to live when they threaten the lives of my family, IDK bout you but I have a spine and i'm certainly not just gonna lie down when the lives of my family at risk. I don't give a shit what the criminals "intentions" are, and I don't need to. The only thing I need to do is protect me and my own. I may even agree to you, if you were not an american who actually thinks that stealing a dvd player (or even being on your property) is a threat to your family. Funny thing is, i kinda feel threatend by you and i fear that my childs are in danger by your triggerhappiness. Should i come over and kill you, just in case? And btw, having a WEAPON in your house has nothing to do with spine. On the contrary, its spineless. WTF are you even talking about. What does a dvd player have to do with anything? Are you actually stupid enough to think that you know what a criminals intentions are? So let me get this straight. Your house gets broken into, by and unknown amount of people carrying god knows what, and you say to yourself.... "well, most of all criminal break in's are theft related, let me just crunch some numbers here and come up with....oh yea, 13.6% chance of these guys actually having a murderous intent, those are good odds I think i'll just go back to sleep and hope for the best" Some of you are so goddamn stupid it's actually baffling. So you think that a GROUP of people coming into your house with guns is gunna save you if you have a gun? Lets me just get that straight before I run into a wall because I've lost faith in humanity. You can't even read, what makes you think you know what they have? I said 'unknown amount of people carrying god knows what". The point is you don't waste time hoping that they are just there for a fucking tv because your families life is LITERALLY in danger. It's all too obvious that you don't have a family because you're more worried about arguing then making sense. Just for reference I do have a family. So do most people. If someone broke into my house I would phone the police not go down with a lethal weapon. If you have a gun the best case scenario is they don't have a gun and GREAT pro gun wins you've protected your family because they walk out because you've got a gun and they don't. Second case they call your bluff and jump you in your panic you shoot them and injure/kill them. If not, they beat you and take your gun. OR the most, most likely option in the US where anyone who robs anywhere has a gun. You come down with a gun there's a stand-off. ONE of you is going to die. I'd rather not everyone had guns to rob people with and rather not put someone's life in my hands. If you can't see the logic in that you never will. You clearly don't know anything about self defense with a firearm. Number 1 rule is that you will only confront wih a firearm in the event you plan on shooting them to death. There's no stand off. There's no hand to hand combat. There's you shooting them the second you see him until he stops moving. Real life isn't some video game or movie. Ok. So why do you have the right to chose whether he should die or not? Here's what wrong with your way of looking at this shit and for some reason always finding sympathy for a home intruder. YOU DID NOT MAKE THAT CHOICE, HE DID. I don't go home at night and think to myself, "goddamn i hope someone breaks into my house so i can kill that son of a bitch" it's something that happens (god forbid it ever happens, but it's something I'm sure every father has thought about) and you don't have a choice He is putting his life up against that of your families. I swear to god if you fall back on that stupid "he's just stealing a dvd player" argument I'm done with conversing with you.
That being said, you are bound by law in some states to ensure that you used the firearm only because it was an absolute and necessary thing to do. You are to give fair warning to the intruder to leave, and that you are armed. If you SEE that the intruder is armed however, than by all means his rights are waived as he poses a legitimate threat to both you and your family, and you are free to open fire.
Most firearm trainers will tell you that the last thing you should do is confront the intruder with the weapon, rather the first thing you should do is ensure that you get everyone in your household to a safe part of the house, barricade the door and ensure that you are guarding it. Then, if the intruder attempts to break in, ONLY then you should you confront the intruder and warn him that you are armed. And at that point, you are free to open fire under any state law, because the intruder is making it clear that he has every intention of harming you if he persists.
On July 21 2012 07:18 Leporello wrote:
Bottom-line, my last post, I'm tired of hypotheticals about how safe we'll be with more guns.
We have lots, and lots, and lots of guns. And the NRA folks want to see us have lots and lots and lots more.
We don't need hypotheticals. The results are speaking for themselves. Sometimes, like last night, the results scream. Colorado is a concealed-carry, gun-show state. They have freedom when it comes to the precious weaponry. The man doing the shooting owned several legally-purchased weapons. All our guns are made legally. They're all brought into our land, legally. So what do you have? Safety?
This country is fucked.
Most gun related crimes are done with handguns because they are easily concealed. The crime that was committed by this man was done with an assault weapon, which is a very rare occurrence because it is so easy to detect. The fault was with the security of the theater and any police that were within the area, not the laws of the state.
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I heard a great argument on why we should be able to carry guns. Basically (I'll try to find it) a guy was mocking the people against such laws. It went something like this,
Laws on gun control, more specifically the application of carrying guns, is rather ridiculous. If I decide today, that I want to kill you (he pointed at the interviewer) and I was stupid enough to use a gun, I would not just stop because of a law saying that I can't carry it. What any law prohibiting people to carry guns is doing, is endangering the people who are minding there own business, the old lady getting mugged or the cheerleader getting raped because they are the ones at risk. This isn't the wild west, people understand what jail is, they aren't going to just get pissed and pull there gun out and shoot people, look at states with people who can actively carry there weapons... The crime rate is LOW. Prohibition of any kind is not only against freedoms, but it's against common sense giving all the power to the blackmarket and criminals and taking it away from the everyday citizens minding there own business.
That was about the jist of it.
EDIT: Oh and he went on to use an example where a woman was stabbed 8 times behind a counter but a man came over with a gun and shot the assailant point blank (because he was carrying a gun) and saved her life.
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On July 21 2012 07:03 Carapas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 06:53 Portlandian wrote:On July 21 2012 06:44 nkr wrote:On July 21 2012 06:43 Yergidy wrote:
This has such a simple answer for me. Q: Who follows the laws? A: Ordinary citizens, not criminals. So a gun ban law would take guns out of the hands of people who would use it for defense while doing nothing to criminals because they already BREAK THE LAW. They will get guns if they want to anyway.. If most people you are going to rob don't have guns don't you think that having a gun would make you more persuasive? There are statistics that show that since DC passed a gun ban crime has actually INCREASED. "Hey look DC has a gun ban, now when I rob someone I have a much smaller chance of getting killed or shot when I take someones stuff!" How do you explain all the murders in the U.S compared to other ""civilized" countries. Are americans just people who like to murder, or is it actually linked to the number of weapons available to the people? Q: Who can carry a gun? A: Anyone Q: Who can be a murderer? A: Anyone White Americans commit murder at a rate about the same as White Swedish, White Canadians, White French, etc. The comparably high murder rate in America is because the USA is a diverse nation with drastically different demographics than most of Europe. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm Lol this is so racist, black people are not murderer, but because in the USA they come from poor ghettos they are more at risk of commiting murder simply because of they're environnement, you put the same black family in a rich suburb and they will be less likely to commit murder and vice-versa with whites in ghettos. So the problem the remains why do these ghetto kids get access to guns so easily?
If you look at the source the cause of most of the black-on-black murder's are related to drugs, a common item in the ghetto. Drug's are banned so the black market around them is lucrative providing money to obtain the guns in the first place to protect their drugs. See any similarities?
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On July 21 2012 07:18 Leporello wrote:
Bottom-line, my last post, I'm tired of hypotheticals about how safe we'll be with more guns.
We have lots, and lots, and lots of guns. And the NRA folks want to see us have lots and lots and lots more.
We don't need hypotheticals. The results are speaking for themselves. Sometimes, like last night, the results scream. Colorado is a concealed-carry, gun-show state. They have freedom when it comes to the precious weaponry. The man doing the shooting owned several legally-purchased weapons. All our guns are made legally. They're all brought into our land, legally. So what do you have? Safety?
This country is fucked.
So what, we just give up our rights every time someone goes crazy?
I think it's sick that you people use the death of innocent people to push your stupid agenda's, You have no respect for the dead, you have no respect period.
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On July 21 2012 07:17 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:03 Carapas wrote:On July 21 2012 06:53 Portlandian wrote:On July 21 2012 06:44 nkr wrote:On July 21 2012 06:43 Yergidy wrote:
This has such a simple answer for me. Q: Who follows the laws? A: Ordinary citizens, not criminals. So a gun ban law would take guns out of the hands of people who would use it for defense while doing nothing to criminals because they already BREAK THE LAW. They will get guns if they want to anyway.. If most people you are going to rob don't have guns don't you think that having a gun would make you more persuasive? There are statistics that show that since DC passed a gun ban crime has actually INCREASED. "Hey look DC has a gun ban, now when I rob someone I have a much smaller chance of getting killed or shot when I take someones stuff!" How do you explain all the murders in the U.S compared to other ""civilized" countries. Are americans just people who like to murder, or is it actually linked to the number of weapons available to the people? Q: Who can carry a gun? A: Anyone Q: Who can be a murderer? A: Anyone White Americans commit murder at a rate about the same as White Swedish, White Canadians, White French, etc. The comparably high murder rate in America is because the USA is a diverse nation with drastically different demographics than most of Europe. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm Lol this is so racist, black people are not murderer, but because in the USA they come from poor ghettos they are more at risk of commiting murder simply because of they're environnement, you put the same black family in a rich suburb and they will be less likely to commit murder and vice-versa with whites in ghettos. So the problem the remains why do these ghetto kids get access to guns so easily? No this is the truth, its not racist, I live in this, you can check Memphis, TN out and the murder rates and our rank in the country. This is very true and its not about profiling, its about the availability of guns in the U.S. Few other countries let their citizens have guns as big and powerful as the U.S. That and the fact that gang violence is quite high in many places does not help. The U.S. needs to start addressing violence and safety issues from small children at the beginning of their education by attempting to keep more kids in school and putting better influences within inner city and other impoverished area schools. Violence and gun laws are two very different things, but guns in general kill people. There were not huge massacres that happened nearly as frequently when people only had swords, there wasn't a 40+ person assault/kill spree every year or every other year.
Actually it was a lot worse. You had the peasantry who were disarmed by the nobility and bands of rogues / Vikings / Saracens / Magyars / Mongols / etc. would rape and pillage the country side. However, the nobility were pretty safe for the most part (they weren't disarmed). Guns are an equalizer. Even little 80 year old frail granny can have a chance to defend herself.
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On July 21 2012 07:17 storm8ring3r wrote:
so too bad there was noone with a concealed carry license in the crowd.
It would not have made any difference, he was wearing full body armor.
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EPT
