|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On February 21 2012 23:47 TheGeneralTheoryOf wrote:Show nested quote +Please don't go down this road...Taxes are good if well used, used for the welfare of the citizen and reducing inequalities. But you must be one of this jackass thinking that if you're poor it must be your fault , you being lazy or whatever.
It is impossible to do evil for good purposes; ultimately the harm done in the process will out weigh any good. Taxes aren't good. They're a scam. They are robbery. If the whole institution wasn't rotten you wouldn't need to force it on people. Do you believe in forcing people to do things they don't want to do? Because for me, I believe in voluntarism. I think it's wrong to use violence or coercion to get your way. And yes, I absolutely am one of those jackasses who think that poor people tend to make worse financial decisions on average than rich people. My mother raised me on a welfare cheque, but because she was frugal with her money and industrious besides she ended up owning a farm. So if you think that some random schmuck who is whining about the inequality of the system has it worse than a single mother raising three kids on a welfare cheque then go on, I'd like to hear his hard luck story, but I'd wager dollars to donuts that he spent too much money on booze or smokes, didn't buy second hand clothes, spent too much money on broads, too lazy to work, whatever. Of course this only goes for people in affluent western socities, for those in the third world obviously there are no opportunities and they are relegated to poverty no matter what they do. This is of course shameful but the solution to it is not what you think.
Person who lives most of their life living off other people's tax dollars complains about taxes being theft, oh the stupidity and irony. We should hang you for stealing from us your entire worthless bigot life.
1st world countries can't survive without tax dollars. I really feel sorry for the countries that don't have free healthcare because people don't want to pay the taxes to support it.
|
On February 22 2012 04:19 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:09 Brethern wrote:On February 22 2012 01:24 Fan322 wrote: Guns are too dangerous. I want the control to be strong about them. Contrary to popular belief guns aren't magical death machines that murder babies and women whenever they want to. A gun is a paperweight until it's in someone's hand. They are no more dangerous than kitchen knives, straight razors, cricket bats and scissors. That's a pretty big exaggeration. It is much easier to accidentally murder with a gun. Oh sure you can hurt yourself with things but it takes a considerable amount of force or Final Destination Style luck to kill someone with a straight razor. Of course you can purposefully kill with them, but you don't need a weapon for that anyway. My research indicates that it takes roughly 5 LB's of force to stab someone. Even less if you cut a major vein in their neck or leg.
The trigger pull of a glock is 5.5 pounds. Speaking by the numbers it takes just as much effort to use a gun as a knife.
Granted that is just a bunch of random shit that means nothing.
If a gun is avaliable it might be used. But a knife is just as likely.
|
Its hard for me to come to a good conclusion on gun rights. I've heard, but can not source, data that showed a link between gun control in nations to a lower rate of violent crime, but that also raises questions: did the gun law come in after the fact that the nation was already safe and crime-free to begin with, etc. I think banning guns in an individual city in a nation is a foolish way to go about it, because those who don't follow the rules can easily go outside of the city to obtain guns easily, and those who obey the rules won't have guns to defend themselves. The classic adage: "if you outlaw guns, only outlaws have guns" seems to resonate. So if you were going to outlaw guns, it would have to be done in a way where you could have much more strict control than a city does over its citizens. It would have to be done on a national level to make any difference. And even if you ban them nationally, those that really want it will be able to get them if they work hard enough.
So it seems easier to argue that if the worst criminals are gonna have guns, then might as well let our average citizens carry guns to defend themselves as well. But then, if you allow firearms to be legal, where do you draw the line on weapons? I wouldn't think it reasonable for citizens to be able to own rockets or grenade launchers.
Regardless of what I feel it "should be", if in America I people are allowed to have guns, then I am certainly going to buy a gun for self-defense. But at the same time, I might actually feel more safe in a european country where guns are outlawed in the first place.
|
On February 22 2012 07:07 Brethern wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:19 DoubleReed wrote:On February 22 2012 04:09 Brethern wrote:On February 22 2012 01:24 Fan322 wrote: Guns are too dangerous. I want the control to be strong about them. Contrary to popular belief guns aren't magical death machines that murder babies and women whenever they want to. A gun is a paperweight until it's in someone's hand. They are no more dangerous than kitchen knives, straight razors, cricket bats and scissors. That's a pretty big exaggeration. It is much easier to accidentally murder with a gun. Oh sure you can hurt yourself with things but it takes a considerable amount of force or Final Destination Style luck to kill someone with a straight razor. Of course you can purposefully kill with them, but you don't need a weapon for that anyway. My research indicates that it takes roughly 5 LB's of force to stab someone. Even less if you cut a major vein in their neck or leg. The trigger pull of a glock is 5.5 pounds. Speaking by the numbers it takes just as much effort to use a gun as a knife. Granted that is just a bunch of random shit that means nothing. If a gun is avaliable it might be used. But a knife is just as likely.
You're playing on words, it's easier to pull a trigger than to stab someone. At least for most of the people.
|
On February 22 2012 04:19 Takkara wrote:But guns also have fewer useful, non-violent, alternative uses as compared to those objects, too. And the magnification of killing power is greater with a gun than a scissors, for example. With great power comes great responsibility and all that, I suppose.
Which is why most of the people who favor firearm ownership also favor proper training, safety, licensing, etc.
Cars are also extremely dangerous machines that can be used as a tool for violence and often lead to accidental harm when used improperly. We do allow them though, because there are legitimate uses for them, but we require that people demonstrate competence in order to be licensed to use them.
Owning a firearm is a privilege, not a right (just like with other dangerous machines such as cars), but there's no reason why we should deny that privilege to responsible citizens who can demonstrate proper competence in their safe usage.
|
No.
Guns should be used for hunting only.
|
On February 21 2012 23:14 Tarias wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 22:58 TheGeneralTheoryOf wrote: Even if I am going to get smashed, I'd rather go down fighting and take a few of the bastards with me. While I can see why you would think like that, thats unfortunately not the way things are anymore. If the army wants you dead they will most likely use more advanced means then guns. (UAVs, Armored vehicles, smart bombs etc.) I can see how this concept was valid 250 years ago, but it isn't anymore in my opinion.
And now they can even use super advanced aimbot projectiles (no joke)! I'm glad all this money goes into USEFUL stuff rather than the wealth of the people.
Off topic, but I hate the USA.
|
Handgun ownership of any kind should be totally illegal, save for the military and police. Their primary function is as a tactical weapon to kill humans, and military and police sometimes have to kill humans. They are highly dangerous and can be concealed. I can very reluctantly concede rifle ownership if there are draconian policies in place to control and regulate their use. Fundamentally, they pose too much of a danger to public safety and our society to be justified on the basis of the supposed importance of individual rights, and I have yet to hear a satisfactory justification for general ownership of guns that I can't shoot full of holes (pun intended, naturally).
Because this topic always invites responses outlining the various fallacies defending gun ownership, I will outline those I know of now and speak to them. If you were going to respond with one of these, it will save a) your time, and b) my anguish. For your convenience, I will present these fallacies in order of increasing retardation.
1) I need a gun to defend home invasions.
This is somewhat understandable, except that there are statistics showing guns are often mistakenly used on family members as opposed to intruders. More fundamentally than that, however, you shouldn't have the right to kill someone who enters your house no questions asked. No, it's not a castle, and even if it were, a castle isn't a carte blanche to kill an invader, whatever their condition. Does nobody consider hiding anymore? Everyone wants to be John Wayne and protect their DVD player? If you aggressively confront someone invading your home with a gun, I have no sympathy for you if they manage to shoot you first. If home invasions are such a problem that everyone needs guns, then guns are ironically not the solution, the society has critically important systemic failings that gun ownership would only mask, and that same mass gun ownership would only create new problems.
2) Gun regulation is pointless, criminals don't respect the law.
Sometimes I can't decide whether this is the least retarded or the most retarded. First of all, it seems to forget is that gun-related tragedies aren't necessarily perpetrated by the "law abiding" owner (ergo, it may be impossible to describe a gun as being 100% lawfully owned). The columbine tragedy was perpetrated by someone who had dangerous and unnecessary access to a gun. Since this access can't be eliminated with 100% reliability, a gun can't be 100% lawfully owned. Secondly, it assumes tragic occurrences involving guns must necessarily involve immoral acts. This is not a logical assumption, and in fact it's intuitively wrong. Some incidences involving self defense may not involve an immoral intent but nevertheless result in an unnecessary tragedy. I tried to find the link, but it's a few years old. Basically some crazy old lady killed a drunk 21 year old college student returning home from a party with a shotgun after he accidentally entered her apartment instead of his (she forgot to lock her door, but remembered to load her gun). Thirdly, criminal use of firearms does not morally invalidate efforts to regulate said firearms. This is by definition. Criminal use of firearms falls outside of the law. You don't take unlawful actions into account when deciding what is the most moral or inclusive. Criminals also don't respect speed laws, that doesn't mean speed limits are based on faulty moral grounds. Finally, when guns are common and accessible anyone can get them, criminal or otherwise. If they are tightly regulated, it will be very much more difficult for criminals to gain access to them, especially considering it's difficult to hide the sale of ammunition.
3) Guns are a defensive weapon
First of all, guns are not a defensive weapon, they are very much an offensive weapon. Let me explain what I mean. If you have a knife you can defend yourself by eliminating someone's desire to approach you. This works in much the same way with two people carrying knives. One person carrying a gun can do this perhaps, but it falls apart when everyone has them. If you have a gun and you need to reliably defend yourself from an assailant carrying a gun, you have no option but to shoot. This is simply the offensive nature of the gun, it is independent of an approach or a defensive perimeter, its effectiveness as a weapon supersedes all of that. Yes, there have been numerous (hundreds) of examples of a civilian shooting someone in "self defense" because the other person was carrying a gun, and he was afraid for his life. This is a mentally retarded hypocritical justification. So I'm supposed to respect that you're a responsible adult capable of carrying a gun, when you are apparently unwilling to do the same for fellow gun owners? If you end up with a society where everyone is carrying around guns to defend themselves, this will inevitably follow.
4) I need a gun to defend myself when I leave my home.
No you don't. Police are trained to defend themselves with and without guns. Yes, even when they leave their homes. Yes, police are often expected to subdue someone attacking them with non-lethal force. Why should you be any different? Pepper sprays and tazers aren't good enough if you can't rely on your physical strength? You might need a gun to defend yourself if everyone has guns, but as I've just explained, you'd be putting yourself and everyone around you in a position where they have to shoot first. Do we want this? No. I don't wanna be on a street with a bunch of people carrying guns, ready to shoot first when they feel threatened by another gun.
5) I need a gun to hunt for food.
First of all I'm not 100% against rifles for hunting, so I can let this one slide somewhat. Where it becomes mentally retarded is when people who live in cities say it. Shop at Safeway like everyone else -- stop pretending your hunting weekends are a necessity rather than a desire, when your gun poses a public safety risk.
6) If more law abiding citizens own guns, crime will decrease.
I'm gonna have to rudely disagree. Not only are there statistics correlating general gun ownership with increased levels of violent gun-related crime, it makes the job of the police more difficult. Every time they pull someone over, they have to assume someone is carrying a gun in the car. And I don't think the police being more likely to shoot first and ask questions later is likely to decrease crime or help society in general.
7) Guns don't kill people, people kill people
I hate people who say this with every single measure of life I possess. It's such a ridiculous denialist cop out. An irreverent exercise in what amounts to little more than semantics that trivializes gun violence. Guns facilitate the killing of people. This is why the weapons dealers who cash in on war in Africa are so universally loathed. Yes, those people are capable of killing people without guns, but with guns hundreds of thousands of people die. Guns also kill people on a time frame that precludes restraint. A gun is the perfect tool for a crime of passion, it takes less than a second to murder someone, before those pesky voices in your head remind you that it might not be a good idea. Guns are also very fast firing, often easily concealable highly lethal implements that can be fired from close, from far, from a moving car, etc. Notwithstanding the point that if people truly do kill people as proponents of gun ownership are quick to remind us, then why is it logical for people to be trusted with guns?
8) A gun is like a car, both can be used to kill someone
A car is designed for a very specific purpose. The fact that it can be alternatively or incidentally used to kill someone is not a logical basis to compare it to a gun. This is because the purpose specific to the design of a gun is itself killing. The fact that it can alternatively or incidentally be used for recreation is irrelevant. This logic can be applied to denounce any non weapon capable of killing being used as a basis to detract from the violent intent behind the design of a gun.
|
On February 22 2012 10:00 sevencck wrote:
1) I need a gun to defend home invasions. You're correct people who own a gun and don't have the brain or the training to identify what they are about to shoot before they shoot causes a problem. But when a 6'5' junkie, thug, serial killer is about to break in I'm not going to wait 20+ mins for the police to arrive. Unless you are interested in reading about a little girl or a woman or both that have been found dead and raped.
2) Gun regulation is pointless, criminals don't respect the law. I don't think you're understanding something here. In canada I have to attend a course get consent from any X spouses I have and anyone who lives in my house before I can get a gun. Or I could take a trip to my nearest city, find a drug dealer and spend roughly a week getting the trust I need so that they can point me in the right direction to buy an unregistered untracable handgun. And before you say they can be kept at a club, think about what you're saying there. If a law abiding citizen spends the time to learn about how to own a gun under that system, so can a criminal. There isn't going to be someone at a club at all times. Storing them in a house means that if you don't broadcast that you own them thieves are going to have a low chance of getting them
3) Guns are a defensive weapon
First of all, guns are not a defensive weapon, they are very much an offensive weapon. Let me explain what I mean. If you have a knife you can defend yourself by eliminating someone's desire to approach you. This works in much the same way with two people carrying knives. One person carrying a gun can do this perhaps, but it falls apart when everyone has them. If you have a gun and you need to reliably defend yourself from an assailant carrying a gun, you have no option but to shoot. This is simply the offensive nature of the gun, it is independent of an approach or a defensive perimeter, its effectiveness as a weapon supersedes all of that. Yes, there have been numerous (hundreds) of examples of a civilian shooting someone in "self defense" because the other person was carrying a gun, and he was afraid for his life. This is a mentally retarded hypocritical justification. So I'm supposed to respect that you're a responsible adult capable of carrying a gun, when you are apparently unwilling to do the same for fellow gun owners? If you end up with a society where everyone is carrying around guns to defend themselves, this will inevitably follow. You get this one, since I don't believe it's necessary to carry a gun 100% of the time.
4) I need a gun to defend myself when I leave my home.
you're assuming the police have you're interest at heart. They don't they are getting paid to do this job. You want to trust them go ahead, but get self defence training as well.
5) I need a gun to hunt for food. So me for the simple fact of living in a city means that I am unable to own a gun? That's discrimnation.
6) If more law abiding citizens own guns, crime will decrease. If the police weren't as arrogant as they are they would assume that everyone is carrying a gun. You'd find that conducting themselves under that assumption cop death rates would be low
7) Guns don't kill people, people kill people
They also use machete's spears and knives in africa. a gun is a hunk of metal it takes a human pulling the trigger for it to do harm.
8) A gun is like a car, both can be used to kill someone You must be wendy cucikers son. A gun is nothing like I car. I can drive an unregistered car all I want unless they ask for my registration nothing is going to happen. having an unregistered gun on the other hand is a bad thing. . My responses are in italics.
|
On February 22 2012 05:04 silynxer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:43 Millitron wrote:On February 22 2012 04:19 Takkara wrote:On February 22 2012 04:09 Brethern wrote:On February 22 2012 01:24 Fan322 wrote: Guns are too dangerous. I want the control to be strong about them. Contrary to popular belief guns aren't magical death machines that murder babies and women whenever they want to. A gun is a paperweight until it's in someone's hand. They are no more dangerous than kitchen knives, straight razors, cricket bats and scissors. But guns also have fewer useful, non-violent, alternative uses as compared to those objects, too. And the magnification of killing power is greater with a gun than a scissors, for example. With great power comes great responsibility and all that, I suppose. Please, please don't make me get back into how alcohol causes way more deaths, also has few legitimate uses, and yet you don't see a public outcry for its banishment. I'm sure Djzapz is tired of reading it  . Guns kill 30,000 people in the US every year. Alcohol kills 100,000 people in the US every year. The only non-violent legitimate use of guns is entertainment, i.e. at a range or for collecting. The only benefit alcohol provides is entertainment. Why ban one and not the other? Like someone already said: you can ban general gun ownership at home but allow them on shooting ranges or derivations of that (restricting ammunition, allowing hunting weapons etc.) like all over Europe to keep most of the entertainment. You cannot do the same with alcohol. (and of course like already argued, it kind of makes a difference that other people kill you with a gun and you more or less kill only yourself with alcohol, unless you are driving which for that reason is banned...) Alcohol kills plenty of people other than the ones who drink it, even excluding drunk driving. How many drunks become violent and kill others? How many drunks get in life-threatening situations, like drowning, and put the rescuers at risk? How many drunks just walk out into traffic and cause accidents?
As for the drunk driving; if people can be trusted with alcohol when it can be misused, I.E. the drinker could then get in his car and crash it, how can it make sense to ban guns because they can be misused? You don't outright ban alcohol even though it can be misused, why should you outright ban guns just because they can be misused?
And if you want to talk about pure number of lives saved, getting rid of alcohol will save 100,000 lives a year in the US. Getting rid of guns would only save 30,000.
Really, my whole point behind the alcohol comparison is that people who are pro gun-control have this belief because guns were not a common part of their lives. Look at all the European posters in this thread expressing that they are against gun-rights. This, in my opinion, is because guns are not a major part of European culture like they are in America. The euro-posters are all fine with alcohol though, because it is so deeply engrained in their culture, much like it is here in the US. Well, we're fine with guns, because they are so deeply engrained in our culture.
Just to be absolutely clear, I do not believe we should ban either alcohol OR guns, just that if you are going to ban one, you must ban the other, or you're a hypocrite.
|
On February 22 2012 10:00 sevencck wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Handgun ownership of any kind should be totally illegal, save for the military and police. Their primary function is as a tactical weapon to kill humans, and military and police sometimes have to kill humans. They are highly dangerous and can be concealed. I can very reluctantly concede rifle ownership if there are draconian policies in place to control and regulate their use. Fundamentally, they pose too much of a danger to public safety and our society to be justified on the basis of the supposed importance of individual rights, and I have yet to hear a satisfactory justification for general ownership of guns that I can't shoot full of holes (pun intended, naturally).
Because this topic always invites responses outlining the various fallacies defending gun ownership, I will outline those I know of now and speak to them. If you were going to respond with one of these, it will save a) your time, and b) my anguish. For your convenience, I will present these fallacies in order of increasing retardation.
1) I need a gun to defend home invasions.
This is somewhat understandable, except that there are statistics showing guns are often mistakenly used on family members as opposed to intruders. More fundamentally than that, however, you shouldn't have the right to kill someone who enters your house no questions asked. No, it's not a castle, and even if it were, a castle isn't a carte blanche to kill an invader, whatever their condition. Does nobody consider hiding anymore? Everyone wants to be John Wayne and protect their DVD player? If you aggressively confront someone invading your home with a gun, I have no sympathy for you if they manage to shoot you first. If home invasions are such a problem that everyone needs guns, then guns are ironically not the solution, the society has critically important systemic failings that gun ownership would only mask, and that same mass gun ownership would only create new problems.
2) Gun regulation is pointless, criminals don't respect the law.
Sometimes I can't decide whether this is the least retarded or the most retarded. First of all, it seems to forget is that gun-related tragedies aren't necessarily perpetrated by the "law abiding" owner (ergo, it may be impossible to describe a gun as being 100% lawfully owned). The columbine tragedy was perpetrated by someone who had dangerous and unnecessary access to a gun. Since this access can't be eliminated with 100% reliability, a gun can't be 100% lawfully owned. Secondly, it assumes tragic occurrences involving guns must necessarily involve immoral acts. This is not a logical assumption, and in fact it's intuitively wrong. Some incidences involving self defense may not involve an immoral intent but nevertheless result in an unnecessary tragedy. I tried to find the link, but it's a few years old. Basically some crazy old lady killed a drunk 21 year old college student returning home from a party with a shotgun after he accidentally entered her apartment instead of his (she forgot to lock her door, but remembered to load her gun). Thirdly, criminal use of firearms does not morally invalidate efforts to regulate said firearms. This is by definition. Criminal use of firearms falls outside of the law. You don't take unlawful actions into account when deciding what is the most moral or inclusive. Criminals also don't respect speed laws, that doesn't mean speed limits are based on faulty moral grounds. Finally, when guns are common and accessible anyone can get them, criminal or otherwise. If they are tightly regulated, it will be very much more difficult for criminals to gain access to them, especially considering it's difficult to hide the sale of ammunition.
3) Guns are a defensive weapon
First of all, guns are not a defensive weapon, they are very much an offensive weapon. Let me explain what I mean. If you have a knife you can defend yourself by eliminating someone's desire to approach you. This works in much the same way with two people carrying knives. One person carrying a gun can do this perhaps, but it falls apart when everyone has them. If you have a gun and you need to reliably defend yourself from an assailant carrying a gun, you have no option but to shoot. This is simply the offensive nature of the gun, it is independent of an approach or a defensive perimeter, its effectiveness as a weapon supersedes all of that. Yes, there have been numerous (hundreds) of examples of a civilian shooting someone in "self defense" because the other person was carrying a gun, and he was afraid for his life. This is a mentally retarded hypocritical justification. So I'm supposed to respect that you're a responsible adult capable of carrying a gun, when you are apparently unwilling to do the same for fellow gun owners? If you end up with a society where everyone is carrying around guns to defend themselves, this will inevitably follow.
4) I need a gun to defend myself when I leave my home.
No you don't. Police are trained to defend themselves with and without guns. Yes, even when they leave their homes. Yes, police are often expected to subdue someone attacking them with non-lethal force. Why should you be any different? Pepper sprays and tazers aren't good enough if you can't rely on your physical strength? You might need a gun to defend yourself if everyone has guns, but as I've just explained, you'd be putting yourself and everyone around you in a position where they have to shoot first. Do we want this? No. I don't wanna be on a street with a bunch of people carrying guns, ready to shoot first when they feel threatened by another gun.
5) I need a gun to hunt for food.
First of all I'm not 100% against rifles for hunting, so I can let this one slide somewhat. Where it becomes mentally retarded is when people who live in cities say it. Shop at Safeway like everyone else -- stop pretending your hunting weekends are a necessity rather than a desire, when your gun poses a public safety risk.
6) If more law abiding citizens own guns, crime will decrease.
I'm gonna have to rudely disagree. Not only are there statistics correlating general gun ownership with increased levels of violent gun-related crime, it makes the job of the police more difficult. Every time they pull someone over, they have to assume someone is carrying a gun in the car. And I don't think the police being more likely to shoot first and ask questions later is likely to decrease crime or help society in general.
7) Guns don't kill people, people kill people
I hate people who say this will every single measure of life I possess. It's such a ridiculous denialist cop out. An irreverent exercise in what amounts to little more than semantics that trivializes gun violence. Guns facilitate the killing of people. This is why the weapons dealers who cash in on war in Africa are so universally loathed. Yes, those people are capable of killing people without guns, but with guns hundreds of thousands of people die. Guns also kill people on a time frame that precludes restraint. A gun is the perfect tool for a crime of passion, it takes less than a second to murder someone, before those pesky voices in your head remind you that it might not be a good idea. Guns are also very fast firing, often easily concealable highly lethal implements that can be fired from close, from far, from a moving car, etc. Notwithstanding the point that if people truly do kill people as proponents of gun ownership are quick to remind us, then why is it logical for people to be trusted with guns?
8) A gun is like a car, both can be used to kill someone
A car is designed for a very specific purpose. The fact that it can be alternatively or incidentally used to kill someone is not a logical basis to compare it to a gun. This is because the purpose specific to the design of a gun is itself killing. The fact that it can alternatively or incidentally be used for recreation is irrelevant. This logic can be applied to denounce any non weapon capable of killing being used as a basis to detract from the violent intent behind the design of a gun.
Yeah I really agree with this. Quite comprehensive and rather well-written too.
On February 21 2012 15:45 IMoperator wrote: I think that people should be allowed to have handguns, but nothing more. There's really no need for rifles or shotguns of any type. What the heck? Can you explain your reasoning? I mean it's reasonable to be against sniper rifles and automatics, but why shotguns or any type of rifle, yet still handguns? doesn't make any sense to me. Technically Uzis and MAC-10s are types of handguns, you think they should be legal?
|
On February 22 2012 11:15 Millitron wrote: Alcohol kills plenty of people other than the ones who drink it, even excluding drunk driving. How many drunks become violent and kill others? How many drunks get in life-threatening situations, like drowning, and put the rescuers at risk? How many drunks just walk out into traffic and cause accidents?
As for the drunk driving; if people can be trusted with alcohol when it can be misused, I.E. the drinker could then get in his car and crash it, how can it make sense to ban guns because they can be misused? You don't outright ban alcohol even though it can be misused, why should you outright ban guns just because they can be misused?
The reason behind allowing alcohol is because it's main purpose is not to kill people, or even to impair people. Alcohol adds unique flavor, provides health benefits in moderate consumption, and can change people's behavior/inhibitions/etc. in a useful way.
Guns are only designed to hurt and/or kill — they don't have other uses. If you want self-defense, get a stun gun, stun stick, pepper spray, pepper gun, long knife, etc. The only civilian use for a firearm that makes sense is hunting. Sure they can be used for recreation, but so can cocaine — it doesn't seem right to use such a dangerous piece of equipment just for fun. That said, I have nothing against long guns, so they could still be used for recreation if someone really cared enough (although I'd say it would make good sense to implement a law stating they can't be used for recreation either).
By your "devil's advocate" logic, since prescription drugs (or even non-prescription drugs) CAN kill (more than just the imbiber), they should also be outlawed. I don't think the statement of something being potentially killer is a valid argument (even though I know you're against such an argument). Hammers and crowbars and cars all have other uses than for killing things; THAT is what makes them allowable.
|
On February 22 2012 08:23 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:19 Takkara wrote:But guns also have fewer useful, non-violent, alternative uses as compared to those objects, too. And the magnification of killing power is greater with a gun than a scissors, for example. With great power comes great responsibility and all that, I suppose. Which is why most of the people who favor firearm ownership also favor proper training, safety, licensing, etc. Cars are also extremely dangerous machines that can be used as a tool for violence and often lead to accidental harm when used improperly. We do allow them though, because there are legitimate uses for them, but we require that people demonstrate competence in order to be licensed to use them. Owning a firearm is a privilege, not a right (just like with other dangerous machines such as cars), but there's no reason why we should deny that privilege to responsible citizens who can demonstrate proper competence in their safe usage.
Again I go back to what I said: a car has more useful, non-violent, alternative uses as compared to a gun. It's just a fact. It's not as easy as just saying "I can kill with X and I can kill with Y, so if one is restricted, the other should be."
Full disclosure, I'm all for the right to bear arms, but I think you have to use intellectually realistic arguments to justify your points. Guns can be regulated differently than other things that have the capacity to do harm because they cannot do anything besides cause harm.
|
On February 22 2012 12:01 Xapti wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 11:15 Millitron wrote: Alcohol kills plenty of people other than the ones who drink it, even excluding drunk driving. How many drunks become violent and kill others? How many drunks get in life-threatening situations, like drowning, and put the rescuers at risk? How many drunks just walk out into traffic and cause accidents?
As for the drunk driving; if people can be trusted with alcohol when it can be misused, I.E. the drinker could then get in his car and crash it, how can it make sense to ban guns because they can be misused? You don't outright ban alcohol even though it can be misused, why should you outright ban guns just because they can be misused?
The reason behind allowing alcohol is because it's main purpose is not to kill people, or even to impair people. Alcohol adds unique flavor, provides health benefits in moderate consumption, and can change people's behavior/inhibitions/etc. in a useful way. Guns are only designed to hurt and/or kill — they don't have other uses. If you want self-defense, get a stun gun, stun stick, pepper spray, pepper gun, long knife, etc. The only civilian use for a firearm that makes sense is hunting. Sure they can be used for recreation, but so can cocaine — it doesn't seem right to use such a dangerous piece of equipment just for fun. That said, I have nothing against long guns, so they could still be used for recreation if someone really cared enough (although I'd say it would make good sense to implement a law stating they can't be used for recreation either). By your "devil's advocate" logic, since prescription drugs (or even non-prescription drugs) CAN kill (more than just the imbiber), they should also be outlawed. I don't think the statement of something being potentially killer is a valid argument (even though I know you're against such an argument). Hammers and crowbars and cars all have other uses than for killing things; THAT is what makes them allowable. Prescription drugs can indeed kill, but they have actual, scientifically-supported health benefits when used properly. Alcohol may have some, but there are just a few studies that say this. No real mechanistic explanation yet.
Changing people's behavior/inhibitions is just a different way to say that alcohol is entertaining. It's effectiveness is subjective, just like all entertainment.
"it doesn't seem right to use such a dangerous piece of equipment just for fun."
Well, it doesn't seem right to me to use alcohol for fun, considering the dangerous effects it can have on the human mind.
Like I said, this is a cultural difference. You do not see the value in guns because you did not grow up in a community in which they were valued. You do see the value in alcohol because you did grow up in a community that valued it.
Well, we do see the value in guns because we grew up in communities which valued them.
If you don't want guns, fine. If you and your countrymen don't want guns, fine. But don't act like that's what's best for everyone.
|
There's almost no correlation between guns and murder rate. The people picking and choosing statistics in order to say more guns = more homocides are being ridiculous.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html
Just like it says here (and many other sources) there are many examples of countries with high gun ownership with low murder rates and vice versa.
I mean you can argue it from a moral standpoint or something along those lines, but don't try to say that gun ownership is why the US has a relatively high murder rate.
|
Or maybe there's other factors than just gun ownership that affects murder rates such as income inequalities and social dysfunction.
Either way, it is not realistic to say that the lack of gun control will always = higher murder rates, but it's ignorant to say that it doesn't contribute by facilitating murder.
In the same vein, enabling gun control in attempt to lower murder rates in the US would not be that effective.
|
Please don't take this as a personal offense, and please note that I'm not saying that these statistics are complete nonsense. I don't know nearly enough about the matter at hand to make such a claim. However, referencing statistics from a site called "guncite" would be dubious to me, even if the provided information didn't include gems such as...
"Incidentally in 13th century Europe, several studies have estimated homicide rates in major cities to be around 60 per 100,000." - Yeah, and I bet there were more records on homicides by means of sorcery than using a gun in medieval Europe. Case in point? Ban sorcery!
"Percent households with guns includes all army personnel." - Because it couldn't possible skew the figures if we included the state forces in them... oh wait.
"Percent households with guns excludes East Germany." - Curiously, East Germany doesn't even attend the Olympics anymore. What a shame, those ladies who were 50% person 50% horse hormones were so sexy...
"Data for the remainder of the countries, except as noted above: International Journal of Epidemiology 1998 :27:216." - Ok, since this journal might not even have used completely up-to-date information back in 1998, that explains why we can't acknowledge that the Berlin wall doesn't stand anymore.
"Argentina, Brazil, Estonia, Greece, Hungary, Mexico, Mauritius, Slovenia, Portugal, and South Korea are classified as upper-middle-income countries by the World Bank. GunCite does not know the classification for Colombia, South Africa and the Philippines. The remainder are considered high-income countries." - Sure, let's put Switzerland and Spain in the same income category. There couldn't be anything wrong with that.
Really, when it comes to providing reliable data, there is quite some room for improvement here.
|
Take them away from the people who have the right to bear arms in defense and only let the bad guys illegally acquire guns? Meh, I don't think that's such a good idea. You know what happened during the period of Prohibition? Yeah, that didn't last too long. Bad things happened.
|
I'm all for it and this is a prime reason on why in june I am leaving California and going to texas or nebreska.
|
On February 22 2012 05:52 TheGeneralTheoryOf wrote: You would think the Germans would know most of all that you can't trust the government. Think how things might have been different for the Jews if instead of trusting in the government they armed themselves and fought back.
Wait what?
Your arguments are quite... well... bad.
|
|
|
|