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United Kingdom10021 Posts
The strange thing is that the vast majority of the people i have encountered who do want guns to be available for everybody are from the USA. I am not bashing Americans in any way but that is just true.
I doubt you'll find very many people in countries where firearms are banned asking for them to be available.
I don't even know a single person (IRL) who wants a gun, has ever wanted a gun, or has even encountered a gun (except working in the armed forces), and i don't feel unsafe. Also, I live in the "4th most deprived area of the England" (article), where there is a lot of crime.
The problem is that once guns are available, its hard to turn back. To me, all the philosophy and politics on here are usually a red herring in the debate, and guns are treated as just something cool like a good computer, so people want them.
Once you boil it down and get rid of the seemingly ever growing number of complex reasons for and against firearms, the simple fact is that if you want one, you want something which is designed specifically for the purpose of killing, and that makes you a sadist, and a psychopath.
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The argument about gun control and it's limits should be more nuanced than this.
This is how out-of-hand and far-removed gun control advocates are: you can't even get some gun enthusiasts to admit that they are dangerous.
Irony: it's the nitrogen of the internet.
Once you boil it down and get rid of the seemingly ever growing number of complex reasons for and against firearms, the simple fact is that if you want one, you want something which is designed specifically for the purpose of killing, and that makes you a sadist, and a psychopath.
I'm pretty sure arbitrarily and casually classing billions of people (gun ownership is pretty widespread around the world, there's that narrow Eurocentrism at work again) sadists and psychopaths isn't the best way to convince anyone you know what you're talking about.
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United Kingdom10021 Posts
On July 24 2012 07:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +The argument about gun control and it's limits should be more nuanced than this.
This is how out-of-hand and far-removed gun control advocates are: you can't even get some gun enthusiasts to admit that they are dangerous. Irony: it's the nitrogen of the internet.Show nested quote +Once you boil it down and get rid of the seemingly ever growing number of complex reasons for and against firearms, the simple fact is that if you want one, you want something which is designed specifically for the purpose of killing, and that makes you a sadist, and a psychopath. I'm pretty sure arbitrarily and casually classing billions of people (gun ownership is pretty widespread around the world, there's that narrow Eurocentrism at work again) sadists and psychopaths isn't the best way to convince anyone you know what you're talking about.
You haven't said anything there which suggests i'm wrong...
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On July 24 2012 07:04 Jockmcplop wrote:
Once you boil it down and get rid of the seemingly ever growing number of complex reasons for and against firearms, the simple fact is that if you want one, you want something which is designed specifically for the purpose of killing, and that makes you a sadist, and a psychopath.
I wouldn't go that far. The cops at the local police station aren't psychopaths, for instance.
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The thing with gun control in US is that the old geezers wrote in the constitution 250 years ago about how people have the right to arm. At that time, it was aimed so that the people can rebel and defeat a corrupt government.
However, at the current age, this law in the Constitution is both unnecessary and meaningless. Even if people rebel with their guns, they are not match for tanks and airplanes lol. So unless the government goes all out on "right to arm" and allow civilians to have tanks and airplanes, the founding fathers' dreams of people being able to take on the government is impossible in real life. So personally I think guns might as well as be controlled, or at least be illegal to purchase in the public.
Of course even if you outlaw guns there are still going to be guns outthere (mostly the gangs and drug cartels have them). But at least most gang leaders and smart enough to not start random meaningless murder of innocent people, and the gangs will use their guns to shoot eachother, which isnt too bad lol.
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Yeah I see a bunch of posts trying to create this false dichotomy, trying to dumb the argument down to "big government wins no guns for anyone" vs some sort of assault rifle utopia where weapons are completely deregulated.
In reality the best solution probably lies somewhere in between. When psychos are able to go around in vests with tons of ammo, smoke grenades and a semi auto weapon and massacre people in a theatre i know something is wrong, and no it's not "if only one guy in that theatre had been trained and packing" because for every 10 private citizens u permit to carry guns in public 1 might stop a massacre the other 9 will be likely to start one.
Can't understand how people don't trust government to regulate weapons... They regulate bombs to make sure u dont geg blown up, regulate drugs, regulate access to nuclear and biological weapons... Clearly u wouldn't complain about government stopping someone from stockpiling explosives so why is access to semi auto assault weapons so different? This is about finding a healthy balance. Too bad politics in the us is about divisive polemics these days and not rational compromise.
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On July 24 2012 06:05 ReachTheSky wrote:
People act as if guns kill people. People kill people. People don't even need guns to do this. Hell, should we start making the possession of pencils illegal if someone goes on a mass stabbing with pencils? Seriously, its all about the people, nothing to do with guns.
If you can kill 5 people in a drive by pencil attack, I will gladly concede your point.
Until you demonstrate that though, get some real fucking arguments.
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United Kingdom10021 Posts
On July 24 2012 07:10 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 07:04 Jockmcplop wrote:
Once you boil it down and get rid of the seemingly ever growing number of complex reasons for and against firearms, the simple fact is that if you want one, you want something which is designed specifically for the purpose of killing, and that makes you a sadist, and a psychopath. I wouldn't go that far. The cops at the local police station aren't psychopaths, for instance.
Most people wouldn't go that far. Alot of cops would probably be happier if they didn't need one.
Maybe i should rephrase. People who want guns but don't need them are either delusional, or psychopaths. They are either delusional because they are so paranoid that they think they will need one, or they are a psychopath because they know they won't need one, but they want one anyway.
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On July 24 2012 05:03 dotHead wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 04:56 Figgy wrote:On July 23 2012 17:13 Rannasha wrote:On July 23 2012 16:59 ranshaked wrote:On July 23 2012 16:52 Dakk wrote:
I believe that no one besides then the military should be allowed guns. Guns are bad and guns kill people. Legalizing guns is just making it easier for the killers to kill....
So what do you do when a man with a gun breaks into your home? Do you just let him shoot you? Regular criminals don't have guns in my country. With decent gun control, it's difficult even for criminals to acquire a gun. They need connections to organized crime as well as a decent amount of money (illegal guns are expensive when there aren't any legal guns). Your everyday smalltime criminal will have neither. Most criminals with guns are in organized crime groups that seem to primarily use the guns on eachother. Regular burglars emphasize stealth. They're in and out before you know what happened. And if they hear any sounds that indicate that you may be at home / awake, they will flee. Someone being injured or killed by a burglar is extremely rare in the Netherlands. Same also applies to Canada. I'm in a city with 2 million people and I don't even need to lock my door, let alone worry about someone entering my house with a gun. Never had a single armed house robbery in over 20 years, it's nice when the criminals don't actually have weapons isn't it? Also, the ones that actually do try to break and enter flee the second they realize someone is home. Not many people break into houses with the intent to kill someone. What? Canada? http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20120722-700806.html
2 incidents like this in 35 years, is it that hard for you to read the full 6(!) fucking lines?. Another nice example for brainwashed people only seeing what they want to see.
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On July 24 2012 07:10 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 07:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:The argument about gun control and it's limits should be more nuanced than this.
This is how out-of-hand and far-removed gun control advocates are: you can't even get some gun enthusiasts to admit that they are dangerous. Irony: it's the nitrogen of the internet.Once you boil it down and get rid of the seemingly ever growing number of complex reasons for and against firearms, the simple fact is that if you want one, you want something which is designed specifically for the purpose of killing, and that makes you a sadist, and a psychopath. I'm pretty sure arbitrarily and casually classing billions of people (gun ownership is pretty widespread around the world, there's that narrow Eurocentrism at work again) sadists and psychopaths isn't the best way to convince anyone you know what you're talking about. You haven't said anything there which suggests i'm wrong...
It may have been a bit indirect, but to go the straight path, psychopathy is a serious and strictly defined psychiatric condition and sadism is repeated cruel and degrading behavior towards other individuals. No serious doctor or serious person would consider ownership of a gun or a desire to own one to be enough to classify a person as a sadist or a
Maybe i should rephrase. People who want guns but don't need them are either delusional, or psychopaths. They are either delusional because they are so paranoid that they think they will need one, or they are a psychopath because they know they won't need one, but they want one anyway.
The same as before applies to your ridiculous notion of what constitutes psychopathy (hint: it's not behavior that you personally find objectionable, it has an actual definition, familiarize yourself with it), and people who have paranoid delusions don't just go out and buy a gun and then only use it at the firing range and keep it beside their bed or in a gun locker or holstered the rest of the time. They act in a paranoid, delusional way as a regular pattern of behavior. So, again, foolish prejudicial nonsense.
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On July 24 2012 07:14 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 06:05 ReachTheSky wrote:
People act as if guns kill people. People kill people. People don't even need guns to do this. Hell, should we start making the possession of pencils illegal if someone goes on a mass stabbing with pencils? Seriously, its all about the people, nothing to do with guns. If you can kill 5 people in a drive by pencil attack, I will gladly concede your point. Until you demonstrate that though, get some real fucking arguments.
YOU get some real arguements, "White Knight".
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United Kingdom10021 Posts
So why would you want a gun, if not to inflict cruelty on other people?
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On July 24 2012 07:17 Esk23 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 07:14 TrickyGilligan wrote:On July 24 2012 06:05 ReachTheSky wrote:
People act as if guns kill people. People kill people. People don't even need guns to do this. Hell, should we start making the possession of pencils illegal if someone goes on a mass stabbing with pencils? Seriously, its all about the people, nothing to do with guns. If you can kill 5 people in a drive by pencil attack, I will gladly concede your point. Until you demonstrate that though, get some real fucking arguments. YOU get some real arguements, "White Knight".
You have bested me with your clever arguments sir.
Seriously, grow up and realize this a real issue that requires real discussion, not regurgitation of tired cliches you saw on the internet somewhere.
Prove to me that a pencil is as dangerous as a gun. You said it was, I didn't.
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On July 24 2012 07:18 Jockmcplop wrote:
So why would you want a gun, if not to inflict cruelty on other people?
If the billions of gun owners in the world bought guns to inflict cruelty on other people, why aren't there millions of shootings every day?
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United Kingdom10021 Posts
On July 24 2012 07:20 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 07:17 Esk23 wrote:On July 24 2012 07:14 TrickyGilligan wrote:On July 24 2012 06:05 ReachTheSky wrote:
People act as if guns kill people. People kill people. People don't even need guns to do this. Hell, should we start making the possession of pencils illegal if someone goes on a mass stabbing with pencils? Seriously, its all about the people, nothing to do with guns. If you can kill 5 people in a drive by pencil attack, I will gladly concede your point. Until you demonstrate that though, get some real fucking arguments. YOU get some real arguements, "White Knight". You have bested me with your clever arguments sir. Seriously, grow up and realize this a real issue that requires real discussion, not regurgitation of tired cliches you saw on the internet somewhere. Prove to me that a pencil is as dangerous as a gun. You said it was, I didn't.
My point exactly. A pencil has a use. If you don't want to use your gun to seriously injure or kill someone, it has no use.
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United Kingdom10021 Posts
On July 24 2012 07:21 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 07:18 Jockmcplop wrote:
So why would you want a gun, if not to inflict cruelty on other people? If the billions of gun owners in the world bought guns to inflict cruelty on other people, why aren't there millions of shootings every day?
So why do these people want one?
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On July 24 2012 07:20 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 07:17 Esk23 wrote:On July 24 2012 07:14 TrickyGilligan wrote:On July 24 2012 06:05 ReachTheSky wrote:
People act as if guns kill people. People kill people. People don't even need guns to do this. Hell, should we start making the possession of pencils illegal if someone goes on a mass stabbing with pencils? Seriously, its all about the people, nothing to do with guns. If you can kill 5 people in a drive by pencil attack, I will gladly concede your point. Until you demonstrate that though, get some real fucking arguments. YOU get some real arguements, "White Knight". You have bested me with your clever arguments sir. Seriously, grow up and realize this a real issue that requires real discussion, not regurgitation of tired cliches you saw on the internet somewhere. Prove to me that a pencil is as dangerous as a gun. You said it was, I didn't.
You're logic is because a few people abuse the 2nd Amendment everyone else should lose it. There are no other real means of protection against criminals, robbers, etc other than guns. Many people have successfully defended themselves and their families by use of firearms. I'm sure those people in the UK missed their right to have firearms for self defense when their stores and shops got looted and robbed by that mob who were angry over the POLICE shooting.
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On July 24 2012 07:22 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 07:21 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 24 2012 07:18 Jockmcplop wrote:
So why would you want a gun, if not to inflict cruelty on other people? If the billions of gun owners in the world bought guns to inflict cruelty on other people, why aren't there millions of shootings every day? So why do these people want one?
Self-defense. A concept not understood in the UK as your right to bear firearms was taken away from you.
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On July 24 2012 07:18 Jockmcplop wrote:
So why would you want a gun, if not to inflict cruelty on other people?
Hunting? Target shooting? Home defense?
I will never own a gun, but I'm not scared that my neighbor can buy a .22 rifle and going hunting. That being said, I recently went to a gun show in Demming, WA (FYI Euro friends, Washington state is like the Switzerland of the US) and saw on sale:
1) A Barrett 50 cal sniper rifle, the same high-power sniper rifle issued to US snipers in active duty
2) A table covered in UZIs
... I really can't see why anybody would need either of these items for "recreation" and it made me more than a little nervous that they were being sold to my neighbors. Especially considering the Barrett could be purchased for cash on site with no background check :-(
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On July 24 2012 07:18 Jockmcplop wrote:
So why would you want a gun, if not to inflict cruelty on other people?
Hunting, humane mercy killing of animals, destroying garbage, self-defense, historical antique collection, probably more things too.
Edit: ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE SURVIVAL TOOL of course.
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