Taiwanese Elections Thread - Page 3

On January 14 2012 06:05 chenchen wrote:


Her given name literally means "English language" in Chinese so . . . Ms English is a pretty appropriate nickname.

On January 14 2012 10:03 FindMeInKenya wrote:
So...... you did not deny what I said, right?

You are exactly right about China calls all the shots now. So your idea of reviving Taiwan's economy is to....... what? Go against the Chinese powerhouse like Chen did? How did that end up? lol.

About Ma being corrupt, at least give me some sources to prove it.

About your lastly, if Tsai use the same advisors/coucilors as Chen, how would it be any different between Tsai's presidency and Chen's? last time i heard Tsai is trying hard to seperate herself from Chen.

And you are right, many prominent DPP members were political prisoners. And guess what, most of them are no longer DPP members and many actually speak out against DPP now a days and take a pan-blue stance (regarding economy and corruption at least). So what does that say about the current state of DPP now?

On January 13 2012 16:41 ElMeanYo wrote:
President Ma, the incumbent, and Ms English (yes, that is her name), the DPP candidate

What exactly do you mean by "go against the Chinese powerhouse like Chen did? How did that end up? lol." I don't get the point you are trying to make here, you need to elaborate. You can't just make a blanket statement and then say lol as if that is any form of meaningful argument.

The situation I see it as is this. China is a big bully that prevents Taiwan from having any meaningful economic prosperity due to its pride in wanting to govern Taiwan. As a result Taiwan is blocked from joining international treaties such as the World Trade Organization, and is thus unable to have free trade agreements with many of the countries in the world. Instead of alleviating this injustice, most of the other countries such as the USA ignore the problem because they do not want to offend China. Instead of being united against this unfairness, Taiwanese are divided between the KMT and DPP as to how to resolve this issue.

Do you realise that the DPP was made up of activists who were everyday Taiwanese citizens, and not the ruling elite who were all high ranking government officials from Mainland China like the KMT?

Take my uncle for example. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts in this thread, my family has close ties to the PFP, which is made up of many ex-KMT members. He is a high ranking government official. When he retires, he can put his savings in the bank and earn 18% interest for his retirement. What about the average citizen? Nope, they don't get these state benefits - it's your usual 2% interest. Most people are living day to day without the possibility of saving for retirement, which is why you see many elderly Taiwanese in their 60s, 70s and 80s working on the streets selling rice wrapped in bamboo leaves.

When Chen tried to reform this of course the KMT and PFP blocked the proposal because they don't want to take away the public funded benefits their rich bureaucratic friends have.

What were some of the significant reforms Chen was able to achieve?

He made high school education public so that every child can now attend high school without having to compete for limited spaces. If you didn't get in previously you either had to have extremely hardworking parents who could pay for your education (or take on part time work yourself whilst studying) or you went into the workforce. How was this able to be passed, given that many of the KMT own the private schools that were milking the dollars? Because everyone has children and once the public realised the KMT were blocking this proposal the KMT had no choice but to support it.

Which I might just add - since Taiwan started having democracy for the first time in Taiwanese history the KMT realise that the role of a politician is to serve the people - not that the people serve the politicians. For the first time in history they realise that they need to do shit to make the citizens' lives better otherwise they might get voted out of office and lose their power and ability to control the state's assets and finances.

Another achievement - Chen made it so that home loan interest rates were low for first time buyers. This of course also pissed off the KMT and their politically appointed bank managers who were milking the citizens' incredulous mortgage repayments but again another reform that was too politically dangerous to oppose.

Now can you name me a few reforms that the KMT have achieved to make Taiwan a better place for its middle class and poorer citizens?

I've seen President Ma in power for the last four years and it seems his focus has been to make it easier for his rich business friends to do business better in China. What does this do for the average Taiwan citizen who isn't rich and starting up huge companies? All of the KMT members are used to making money - their goal in politics is to make it more efficient for them to get richer. They are separated from the struggling Taiwanese citizens who go to work each day and struggle to pay their bills. Ma made a trade agreement with China in 2010 - so what did that do? Well, firstly it made it easier for rich Taiwanese businessmen to move their businesses to China for the cheaper labour. Secondly it allowed China to export more of its products to Taiwan, flooding the Taiwanese local industries which can't compete (anything Taiwan does, China can do cheaper due to the cost of labour and to a much larger scale in terms of quantity). So what does this mean for Taiwan? You say: "What happened last time with President Chen lol." I don't even know what you mean. Chen tried to establish Taiwanese independence so that we could sign treaties and be a part of groups like the World Trade Organization so we aren't always blocked from having free trade. Chen tried to make it so that Taiwan had a chance at establishing itself in the international stage like South Korea. But China prevented all of that. And you say: "lol" as if it's OK for China to bully Taiwan because it has the military.

And speaking of the military - aren't we lucky to have democratic elections where we can openly protest and hold the government accountable? In China you do that and you're put to prison. In China, there is no opposition party for you to choose from if you are dissatisfied with the current administration.

It says that the times are changing. Do you realise that it was only 1996 that China fired missiles at Taiwan for having an election? Do you realise that China often threatened Taiwan for daring to hold public referendums asking for opinions regarding whether we should have the right to join the WTO, WHO and the UN? And that the USA actively prevented Taiwan from doing so by threatening to cease trade due to pressure from China?

The DPP is actually very united at the moment and it is my hope that they will win this election so that there is a better chance for Taiwan to have significant reforms that will help the poor and average citizen. President Ma has done a lot for rich businessmen and their business ventures into China (and of course, if you are an entrepreneur you better have KMT connections if you want to get established in China, e.g. friends with the government appointed cross-strait officers), but nothing has changed for the majority of the citizens. I'd be interested to know why you decided to support KMT, like what brought you to lean towards the KMT. For me I became a DPP supporter when I started reading up on history and how many of the early DPP members were killed and oppressed for trying to make Taiwan a democracy. I also saw a friend's family ruined because the father died early of tuberculous and how there was no social welfare in place and as a result a solo mother had to raise three children whilst working and one of those three ending up in gangs because he didn't have a decent chance of an educated upbringing. I don't see the KMT ever raising taxes - it would anger their rich friends too much. Most developed countries have a tax rate of 20-30% but Taiwan has 6%. What does the KMT do with this 6%? Not social welfare - it goes towards government benefits for government appointed officials. What does the DPP do? It makes education public and lowers interest rates on bank loans. Got to go, my dad's giving me a lift and I haven't voted yet so I'm off to vote.

On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote:
I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States.

On January 14 2012 14:16 Taiwanese wrote:


What was it you said? You reply to my message with brief deviations from what I say without addressing any of the arguments I make whilst I reply to yours substantially with answers to every statement you pose so it would help if you were more specific.



What exactly do you mean by "go against the Chinese powerhouse like Chen did? How did that end up? lol." I don't get the point you are trying to make here, you need to elaborate. You can't just make a blanket statement and then say lol as if that is any form of meaningful argument.

The situation I see it as is this. China is a big bully that prevents Taiwan from having any meaningful economic prosperity due to its pride in wanting to govern Taiwan. As a result Taiwan is blocked from joining international treaties such as the World Trade Organization, and is thus unable to have free trade agreements with many of the countries in the world. Instead of alleviating this injustice, most of the other countries such as the USA ignore the problem because they do not want to offend China. Instead of being united against this unfairness, Taiwanese are divided between the KMT and DPP as to how to resolve this issue.



If you read what I wrote, I said Ma isn't corrupt because he has embezzled public funds. I said his parents embezzled public funds, being politicians from the autocratic KMT era, and that Ma fails to go after those politicians, many of whom are still in Parliament, whilst attacking Chen relentlessly. Recognise one thing - that ALL KMT politicians were corrupt in the early KMT era, yet Ma has not been able to convict any DPP members outside of the ex-President's close circle. The DPP can't embezzle public funds even if they wanted to because there is more accountability now with a Parliament that has the government and the opposition. All the embezzled public funds are in the KMT owned assets.



Do you realise that the DPP was made up of activists who were everyday Taiwanese citizens, and not the ruling elite who were all high ranking government officials from Mainland China like the KMT? So let me use an example. Zimbabwe has President Mugabe and an opposition leader. If the opposition leader were to take power for four years - how much can you expect them to do? They have to take over 50 years of KMT appointed government officials and the public service which is all made up of political appointments hostile to the DPP. Furthermore all reforms are blocked by the legislative yuan due to the President having a minority number of seats in the house.

Take my uncle for example. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts in this thread, my family has close ties to the PFP, which is made up of many ex-KMT members. He is a high ranking government official. When he retires, he can put his savings in the bank and earn 18% interest for his retirement. What about the average citizen? Nope, they don't get these state benefits - it's your usual 2% interest. Most people are living day to day without the possibility of saving for retirement, which is why you see many elderly Taiwanese in their 60s, 70s and 80s working on the streets selling rice wrapped in bamboo leaves.

When Chen tried to reform this of course the KMT and PFP blocked the proposal because they don't want to take away the public funded benefits their rich bureaucratic friends have.

What were some of the significant reforms Chen was able to achieve?

He made high school education public so that every child can now attend high school without having to compete for limited spaces. If you didn't get in previously you either had to have extremely hardworking parents who could pay for your education (or take on part time work yourself whilst studying) or you went into the workforce. How was this able to be passed, given that many of the KMT own the private schools that were milking the dollars? Because everyone has children and once the public realised the KMT were blocking this proposal the KMT had no choice but to support it.

Which I might just add - since Taiwan started having democracy for the first time in Taiwanese history the KMT realise that the role of a politician is to serve the people - not that the people serve the politicians. For the first time in history they realise that they need to do shit to make the citizens' lives better otherwise they might get voted out of office and lose their power and ability to control the state's assets and finances.

Another achievement - Chen made it so that home loan interest rates were low for first time buyers. This of course also pissed off the KMT and their politically appointed bank managers who were milking the citizens' incredulous mortgage repayments but again another reform that was too politically dangerous to oppose.

Now can you name me a few reforms that the KMT have achieved to make Taiwan a better place for its middle class and poorer citizens?

I've seen President Ma in power for the last four years and it seems his focus has been to make it easier for his rich business friends to do business better in China. What does this do for the average Taiwan citizen who isn't rich and starting up huge companies? All of the KMT members are used to making money - their goal in politics is to make it more efficient for them to get richer. They are separated from the struggling Taiwanese citizens who go to work each day and struggle to pay their bills. Ma made a trade agreement with China in 2010 - so what did that do? Well, firstly it made it easier for rich Taiwanese businessmen to move their businesses to China for the cheaper labour. Secondly it allowed China to export more of its products to Taiwan, flooding the Taiwanese local industries which can't compete (anything Taiwan does, China can do cheaper due to the cost of labour and to a much larger scale in terms of quantity). So what does this mean for Taiwan? You say: "What happened last time with President Chen lol." I don't even know what you mean. Chen tried to establish Taiwanese independence so that we could sign treaties and be a part of groups like the World Trade Organization so we aren't always blocked from having free trade. Chen tried to make it so that Taiwan had a chance at establishing itself in the international stage like South Korea. But China prevented all of that. And you say: "lol" as if it's OK for China to bully Taiwan because it has the military.

And speaking of the military - aren't we lucky to have democratic elections where we can openly protest and hold the government accountable? In China you do that and you're put to prison. In China, there is no opposition party for you to choose from if you are dissatisfied with the current administration.



It says that the times are changing. Do you realise that it was only 1996 that China fired missiles at Taiwan for having an election? Do you realise that China often threatened Taiwan for daring to hold public referendums asking for opinions regarding whether we should have the right to join the WTO, WHO and the UN? And that the USA actively prevented Taiwan from doing so by threatening to cease trade due to pressure from China?

The DPP is actually very united at the moment and it is my hope that they will win this election so that there is a better chance for Taiwan to have significant reforms that will help the poor and average citizen. President Ma has done a lot for rich businessmen and their business ventures into China (and of course, if you are an entrepreneur you better have KMT connections if you want to get established in China, e.g. friends with the government appointed cross-strait officers), but nothing has changed for the majority of the citizens. I'd be interested to know why you decided to support KMT, like what brought you to lean towards the KMT. For me I became a DPP supporter when I started reading up on history and how many of the early DPP members were killed and oppressed for trying to make Taiwan a democracy. I also saw a friend's family ruined because the father died early of tuberculous and how there was no social welfare in place and as a result a solo mother had to raise three children whilst working and one of those three ending up in gangs because he didn't have a decent chance of an educated upbringing. I don't see the KMT ever raising taxes - it would anger their rich friends too much. Most developed countries have a tax rate of 20-30% but Taiwan has 6%. What does the KMT do with this 6%? Not social welfare - it goes towards government benefits for government appointed officials. What does the DPP do? It makes education public and lowers interest rates on bank loans. Got to go, my dad's giving me a lift and I haven't voted yet so I'm off to vote.

On January 14 2012 15:20 FindMeInKenya wrote:
Likewise, I can also tell you plenty stories about how people suffered under Chen's terms and how Ma has improved upon them.

Are you freaking insane? All of the best high schools in Taiwan are public schools, getting into private schools often bring shames into the family. Also, if Chen's education reform is so sucessful, why are there so many education related problems, such as over abundant of trash schools with no students and lowered quality of education, now a day compare to the 90s when there's almost none?

True, ECFA made the rich get richer, but it also brings in business and jobs from China to Taiwan, common street vendors to major coporation all benefits from it. If Ma did not sign ECFA, Taiwan will be in worse shape. BTW, cheaper cost also reduce the price of the product, do you think Taiwanese people will buy the same thing when one is $1 and the other is $10? Say if major coporation all stayed and set up factory in Taiwan, i bet you no one will buy their product because it is too expensive. There's is no such thing as self-sufficient nation now a day beside maybe N. Korea. Yeah, let's all be like N. Korea, that is what Chen, Tsai & DPP wants, that is much better than what Taiwan is right now. Isolationism rules!!!

DPP united? Where were the 4 prominent figures of DPP? Where were vice president Lu? Where were all the past giants of DPP during this time?

On January 14 2012 19:17 haduken wrote:
Meh, from this thread all I got is that Taiwan is really really fucked.

Why don't you guys just accept it and join Mainland, you will probably get lots of economic concession and have some sort of 50 or 100 years no touch rule like Hong Kong did.

Selling out isn't bad when you look @ it like that.

On January 14 2012 16:17 stfn wrote:
Surprised nobody mentioned the heavy underworld ties connected to the Taiwanese political parties as well as allowing such organizations to actively operate with no penalty under law.

On January 14 2012 20:12 ShadeR wrote:

I figured that was obvious from the brawls. Being that why else would these brawls happen if not because some of the candidates are high ranking mobsters.