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On January 14 2012 03:10 Taiwanese wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 03:02 DrTyrant wrote:On January 14 2012 02:53 Taiwanese wrote:On January 14 2012 02:38 DrTyrant wrote:On January 14 2012 02:20 Taiwanese wrote:Thanks very much OP. On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote: I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States. That's because up until 1996, Taiwan did not have democratic elections. One year after the Tienanmen incident, the same protests happened in Taiwan in 1990. Thankfully, President Lee accepted the student protester's demands and made it so that after his six year term there would be an election. In 1996, President Lee won 53% to the DPP candidate's 24%. Random facts: The first ever DPP candidate, whose name escapes me, was persecuted by the KMT in the 70s for being politically active, distributing pamphlets at university advocating for democratic elections (to give an idea of how 'free' Taiwan was back then). He was sentenced to 18 years in jail but Amnesty International brought his case to the spotlight and he was able to exile to Europe and America. He returned in 1996 to stand and President Lee allowed him to no longer be 'blacklisted'. President Lee later went on to side with the DPP, and in 2000 the DPP won the second election. Many in the KMT are angry at him for doing so. The DPP won a second term in 2004 after an attempted assassination on the President won sympathy, and then in 2008 the KMT won power back due to the DPP President embezzling public funds and losing public confidence. I went to the DPP rally tonight. It's the 5th Taiwanese election. I support the DPP because they lean towards the left. Taiwan is a very capitalist country, with a tax rate of 6%. As a result, you cannot go anywhere without seeing dozens of unemployed lying on the streets, too depressed to get up. Social welfare is limited to one single month and if you don't have family supporting you, you are fucked. Everything is user-pays - with the exception of our good public health system. Thanks for the background history, Taiwanese/ROC politics aren't exactly my strong suite. I realize that the President of the Republic of China has only been directly elected since 1996, but you did have democratic legislative elections for your parliament though, yes? Technically yes, but they were all KMT legislators and you could pretty much only vote for KMT legislators because if anyone dared to stand as a non-KMT member they would be tried for sedition and jailed as political prisoners. To get a good idea of Taiwan's historical background, it's worth reading this page and then going from the links there if you wish to read further: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident Wow that's interesting and pretty horrible, especially considering the "White Terror" that followed it for nearly 50 years. Something similar happened to Greece during the Cold War. At least Taiwan is free now, so do you support the current existence of the ROC? An "independent" Taiwan from the ROC and PRC? Or joining the PRC? Or something else? Personally I do support the KMT's goal of closer economic relations with China, because I think in the future China will be an economic powerhouse and it's best to start establishing trade relations with them now rather than be left behind. However, the current KMT politicians are all very corrupt - the KMT is the richest political party in the world, owning most of Taiwan's assets. President Ma's platform in 2008 included selling off these assets and returning the funds to the public (because these assets were historically owned by the public but then acquired through duress by the KMT - turning them from public assets into party assets). However, he has not done this - most likely because of pressure within the KMT. I do support closer economic relations with China, but I feel like the KMT need much more pressure first, from losing another election, before they will make any serious internal national changes, such as returning assets to the public and helping the poor in Taiwan. I would first like to see some social welfare changes, that to me is a more pressing concern than closer economic relations. I hope that makes sense. Basically I am not against the KMT's goals of economic prosperity. However, I feel like they still act like they deserve to be in government as of right and there is still a lot of corruption (e.g. vote buying - they bribe the city mayors to endorse them), therefore I think one more term in opposition would do them as well as the Taiwanese democratic system as a whole a lot more good. At the moment the KMT's economic goals are for the purpose of making their politicians richer (because their party owns the export industry). I hope that in the future their goals will be for the purpose of making the country's poorer people richer.
I hadn't even thought of the issue of corruption and "黑金" but I think by now we are aware that both parties are guilty of 貪污 and as you mentioned -- much of the KMT's corruption is in the interest of global trade and the export industry.
Part of the reason I am so torn during Taiwanese elections is that while I generally support the party that has the best economic vision going forward (that is, the most free market and innovation-inducing economic policy) -- there is always the underlying sovereignty issue that is hard to push to the sidelines in light of other policy decisions. Though I must say that, much like other Taiwanese, I am quite comfortable with the status quo and would gladly accept the status quo going forward in return for a more prosperous future for the Taiwanese people.
After all, the central issue now is tackling affordability in the urban regions of the island (I cannot believe how absurdly expensive property in Taipei is now!! it's clear that wage growth has not kept pace with inflation, with regards to the average Taiwanese consumer basket), chronically low birth rate, and staying competitive. By the last item, I think while the Taiwanese gov't has done a decent job at moving the island's economy toward the future, increased support and subsidies to budding industries, along with rolling out increased world class infrastructure (both in consumer life and at technology parks) will cement Taiwan's competitiveness and innovation pace.
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On January 14 2012 03:53 d_wAy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 03:10 Taiwanese wrote:On January 14 2012 03:02 DrTyrant wrote:On January 14 2012 02:53 Taiwanese wrote:On January 14 2012 02:38 DrTyrant wrote:On January 14 2012 02:20 Taiwanese wrote:Thanks very much OP. On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote: I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States. That's because up until 1996, Taiwan did not have democratic elections. One year after the Tienanmen incident, the same protests happened in Taiwan in 1990. Thankfully, President Lee accepted the student protester's demands and made it so that after his six year term there would be an election. In 1996, President Lee won 53% to the DPP candidate's 24%. Random facts: The first ever DPP candidate, whose name escapes me, was persecuted by the KMT in the 70s for being politically active, distributing pamphlets at university advocating for democratic elections (to give an idea of how 'free' Taiwan was back then). He was sentenced to 18 years in jail but Amnesty International brought his case to the spotlight and he was able to exile to Europe and America. He returned in 1996 to stand and President Lee allowed him to no longer be 'blacklisted'. President Lee later went on to side with the DPP, and in 2000 the DPP won the second election. Many in the KMT are angry at him for doing so. The DPP won a second term in 2004 after an attempted assassination on the President won sympathy, and then in 2008 the KMT won power back due to the DPP President embezzling public funds and losing public confidence. I went to the DPP rally tonight. It's the 5th Taiwanese election. I support the DPP because they lean towards the left. Taiwan is a very capitalist country, with a tax rate of 6%. As a result, you cannot go anywhere without seeing dozens of unemployed lying on the streets, too depressed to get up. Social welfare is limited to one single month and if you don't have family supporting you, you are fucked. Everything is user-pays - with the exception of our good public health system. Thanks for the background history, Taiwanese/ROC politics aren't exactly my strong suite. I realize that the President of the Republic of China has only been directly elected since 1996, but you did have democratic legislative elections for your parliament though, yes? Technically yes, but they were all KMT legislators and you could pretty much only vote for KMT legislators because if anyone dared to stand as a non-KMT member they would be tried for sedition and jailed as political prisoners. To get a good idea of Taiwan's historical background, it's worth reading this page and then going from the links there if you wish to read further: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident Wow that's interesting and pretty horrible, especially considering the "White Terror" that followed it for nearly 50 years. Something similar happened to Greece during the Cold War. At least Taiwan is free now, so do you support the current existence of the ROC? An "independent" Taiwan from the ROC and PRC? Or joining the PRC? Or something else? Personally I do support the KMT's goal of closer economic relations with China, because I think in the future China will be an economic powerhouse and it's best to start establishing trade relations with them now rather than be left behind. However, the current KMT politicians are all very corrupt - the KMT is the richest political party in the world, owning most of Taiwan's assets. President Ma's platform in 2008 included selling off these assets and returning the funds to the public (because these assets were historically owned by the public but then acquired through duress by the KMT - turning them from public assets into party assets). However, he has not done this - most likely because of pressure within the KMT. I do support closer economic relations with China, but I feel like the KMT need much more pressure first, from losing another election, before they will make any serious internal national changes, such as returning assets to the public and helping the poor in Taiwan. I would first like to see some social welfare changes, that to me is a more pressing concern than closer economic relations. I hope that makes sense. Basically I am not against the KMT's goals of economic prosperity. However, I feel like they still act like they deserve to be in government as of right and there is still a lot of corruption (e.g. vote buying - they bribe the city mayors to endorse them), therefore I think one more term in opposition would do them as well as the Taiwanese democratic system as a whole a lot more good. At the moment the KMT's economic goals are for the purpose of making their politicians richer (because their party owns the export industry). I hope that in the future their goals will be for the purpose of making the country's poorer people richer. I hadn't even thought of the issue of corruption and "黑金" but I think by now we are aware that both parties are guilty of 貪污 and as you mentioned -- much of the KMT's corruption is in the interest of global trade and the export industry. Part of the reason I am so torn during Taiwanese elections is that while I generally support the party that has the best economic vision going forward (that is, the most free market and innovation-inducing economic policy) -- there is always the underlying sovereignty issue that is hard to push to the sidelines in light of other policy decisions. Though I must say that, much like other Taiwanese, I am quite comfortable with the status quo and would gladly accept the status quo going forward in return for a more prosperous future for the Taiwanese people. After all, the central issue now is tackling affordability in the urban regions of the island (I cannot believe how absurdly expensive property in Taipei is now!! it's clear that wage growth has not kept pace with inflation, with regards to the average Taiwanese consumer basket), chronically low birth rate, and staying competitive. By the last item, I think while the Taiwanese gov't has done a decent job at moving the island's economy toward the future, increased support and subsidies to budding industries, along with rolling out increased world class infrastructure (both in consumer life and at technology parks) will cement Taiwan's competitiveness and innovation pace.
Taiwan is stuck between a rock and a rock hard erection. This will be my last post in this thread for now as it is 4am here in Taiwan:
* Although I am right-wing at heart, having studied economics at university, I don't believe the status quo KMT's free market policies are working for Taiwan due to the lack of ceterus parabis (the externality preventing equilibrium being China).
Theoretically there should be a trickle down effect - as the rich get richer, there will be more investment, and as a result more jobs for the poor in Taiwan - however, because of closer economic relations with China, the rich are in fact moving all their capital offshore to China and using their cheaper labour. As a result, the rich are getting richer, but the money is going to Taiwan's rich and China's poor, not Taiwan's rich and Taiwan's poor.
So what does that mean for the poor in Taiwan?
Unfortunately, the KMT and President Ma do not seem to have Taiwan's poor's interests at heart. Most of their politicians are Taiwan's rich, because all the industries are owned by the KMT, so want to move all their assets offshore to China in order to make more money.
It is my belief that the DPP, which is made up of mostly farmers, university lecturers and lawyers (as opposed to the KMT, which is made up of career politicians whose parents were also politicians when KMT had autocratic rule), who own pretty much zero assets and relies heavily on donations, who will try harder to do something for the poor in Taiwan.
As an economist, I hesitate to support DPP policies such as the state subsidising local industries, but what other options are there to help the poor and create jobs? According to the free market, Taiwan is a 'failed business' that should be 'left to die' and the economically efficient 'Chinese business' will continue to prosper.
* Someone mentioned earlier that I was biased against James Soong's PFP. By default, I should be supporting him. Why? My dad is tight as fuck with Chang Chau-hsiung - his running mate for the last two elections - we are close family friends and his kids babysat me and my sister when we were younger.
Soong is a clever politician. He isn't in this election to win the Presidency - in fact, he is gambling that English will win. Every single interview he has had leading up to this election he has attacked President Ma only. He's been on the DPP's TV stations for lengthy interviews (in Taiwan, the TV stations are all openly partisan). My dad's theory is that he is hoping that if English wins, English will give him an influential position, such as Premier. He has either thrown all his eggs in one basket, or alternatively already made a deal in secret with the DPP to only attack the KMT in interviews and speeches and not the DPP.
Despite our close family ties with the PFP, I will never respect Soong. When he was a KMT member in the 20th Century, as Education Minister he banned the speaking of the native Taiwanese language and was strongly pro-unification with China (this is before China became more capitalist and free - i.e. when the Communist government would run over citizens with tanks). Today he gives his speeches in the native Taiwanes language - hypocrite. But that's not the worst. When he served under President Lee, he was the Governor of Taiwan - someone who was in charge of all public finances of every district in Taiwan.
The next part is hearsay so I emphasise it is my analysis and opinion - make up your own mind by studying Taiwanese history if you like and some sort of disclaimer about how you should not click the spoiler and by clicking on it you are agreeing not to notify Soong so that he can sue me for defamation since being an average citizen of limited means I can't afford to hire a lawyer:
+ Show Spoiler +His goal was to become President after President Lee. So he spent his time as Governor effectively 'bribing' every single district. For example, if South Taiwan (Tainan) needed a billion dollars for a construction project, he would give the mayor two billion. And then say to that mayor - endorse me and you can keep the balance. This is how he became so popular - almost every mayor would say he was fantastic because they personally benefitted. Those who didn't received little funding and as a result their districts would suffer from poverty.
President Lee saw what was going on, and despite being a KMT President, because he secretly supported the DPP and Taiwan independence, he chose Lien as his successor, as opposed to Soong. This infuriated Soong, who left the KMT to form the PFP and as a result made the 2000 election a three-way contest between Soong, Lien and Chen. Soong was on track to win, but President Lee released financial statements revealing Soong's 'unbalanced accounts' which resulted in the voters all finding out about the above paragraph which I wrote in the spoilers.
Anyway, I've got to get some rest now so I don't end up sleeping in past when the ballot closes today. Blah, when writing long posts like this, I always feel like I've left something out and will need to come back to post again later.
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On January 14 2012 05:18 Taiwanese wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 03:53 d_wAy wrote:On January 14 2012 03:10 Taiwanese wrote:On January 14 2012 03:02 DrTyrant wrote:On January 14 2012 02:53 Taiwanese wrote:On January 14 2012 02:38 DrTyrant wrote:On January 14 2012 02:20 Taiwanese wrote:Thanks very much OP. On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote: I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States. That's because up until 1996, Taiwan did not have democratic elections. One year after the Tienanmen incident, the same protests happened in Taiwan in 1990. Thankfully, President Lee accepted the student protester's demands and made it so that after his six year term there would be an election. In 1996, President Lee won 53% to the DPP candidate's 24%. Random facts: The first ever DPP candidate, whose name escapes me, was persecuted by the KMT in the 70s for being politically active, distributing pamphlets at university advocating for democratic elections (to give an idea of how 'free' Taiwan was back then). He was sentenced to 18 years in jail but Amnesty International brought his case to the spotlight and he was able to exile to Europe and America. He returned in 1996 to stand and President Lee allowed him to no longer be 'blacklisted'. President Lee later went on to side with the DPP, and in 2000 the DPP won the second election. Many in the KMT are angry at him for doing so. The DPP won a second term in 2004 after an attempted assassination on the President won sympathy, and then in 2008 the KMT won power back due to the DPP President embezzling public funds and losing public confidence. I went to the DPP rally tonight. It's the 5th Taiwanese election. I support the DPP because they lean towards the left. Taiwan is a very capitalist country, with a tax rate of 6%. As a result, you cannot go anywhere without seeing dozens of unemployed lying on the streets, too depressed to get up. Social welfare is limited to one single month and if you don't have family supporting you, you are fucked. Everything is user-pays - with the exception of our good public health system. Thanks for the background history, Taiwanese/ROC politics aren't exactly my strong suite. I realize that the President of the Republic of China has only been directly elected since 1996, but you did have democratic legislative elections for your parliament though, yes? Technically yes, but they were all KMT legislators and you could pretty much only vote for KMT legislators because if anyone dared to stand as a non-KMT member they would be tried for sedition and jailed as political prisoners. To get a good idea of Taiwan's historical background, it's worth reading this page and then going from the links there if you wish to read further: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident Wow that's interesting and pretty horrible, especially considering the "White Terror" that followed it for nearly 50 years. Something similar happened to Greece during the Cold War. At least Taiwan is free now, so do you support the current existence of the ROC? An "independent" Taiwan from the ROC and PRC? Or joining the PRC? Or something else? Personally I do support the KMT's goal of closer economic relations with China, because I think in the future China will be an economic powerhouse and it's best to start establishing trade relations with them now rather than be left behind. However, the current KMT politicians are all very corrupt - the KMT is the richest political party in the world, owning most of Taiwan's assets. President Ma's platform in 2008 included selling off these assets and returning the funds to the public (because these assets were historically owned by the public but then acquired through duress by the KMT - turning them from public assets into party assets). However, he has not done this - most likely because of pressure within the KMT. I do support closer economic relations with China, but I feel like the KMT need much more pressure first, from losing another election, before they will make any serious internal national changes, such as returning assets to the public and helping the poor in Taiwan. I would first like to see some social welfare changes, that to me is a more pressing concern than closer economic relations. I hope that makes sense. Basically I am not against the KMT's goals of economic prosperity. However, I feel like they still act like they deserve to be in government as of right and there is still a lot of corruption (e.g. vote buying - they bribe the city mayors to endorse them), therefore I think one more term in opposition would do them as well as the Taiwanese democratic system as a whole a lot more good. At the moment the KMT's economic goals are for the purpose of making their politicians richer (because their party owns the export industry). I hope that in the future their goals will be for the purpose of making the country's poorer people richer. I hadn't even thought of the issue of corruption and "黑金" but I think by now we are aware that both parties are guilty of 貪污 and as you mentioned -- much of the KMT's corruption is in the interest of global trade and the export industry. Part of the reason I am so torn during Taiwanese elections is that while I generally support the party that has the best economic vision going forward (that is, the most free market and innovation-inducing economic policy) -- there is always the underlying sovereignty issue that is hard to push to the sidelines in light of other policy decisions. Though I must say that, much like other Taiwanese, I am quite comfortable with the status quo and would gladly accept the status quo going forward in return for a more prosperous future for the Taiwanese people. After all, the central issue now is tackling affordability in the urban regions of the island (I cannot believe how absurdly expensive property in Taipei is now!! it's clear that wage growth has not kept pace with inflation, with regards to the average Taiwanese consumer basket), chronically low birth rate, and staying competitive. By the last item, I think while the Taiwanese gov't has done a decent job at moving the island's economy toward the future, increased support and subsidies to budding industries, along with rolling out increased world class infrastructure (both in consumer life and at technology parks) will cement Taiwan's competitiveness and innovation pace. Taiwan is stuck between a rock and a rock hard erection. This will be my last post in this thread for now as it is 4am here in Taiwan:
I hope, hope, HOPE, you meant election.
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On January 14 2012 05:22 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 05:18 Taiwanese wrote:On January 14 2012 03:53 d_wAy wrote:On January 14 2012 03:10 Taiwanese wrote:On January 14 2012 03:02 DrTyrant wrote:On January 14 2012 02:53 Taiwanese wrote:On January 14 2012 02:38 DrTyrant wrote:On January 14 2012 02:20 Taiwanese wrote:Thanks very much OP. On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote: I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States. That's because up until 1996, Taiwan did not have democratic elections. One year after the Tienanmen incident, the same protests happened in Taiwan in 1990. Thankfully, President Lee accepted the student protester's demands and made it so that after his six year term there would be an election. In 1996, President Lee won 53% to the DPP candidate's 24%. Random facts: The first ever DPP candidate, whose name escapes me, was persecuted by the KMT in the 70s for being politically active, distributing pamphlets at university advocating for democratic elections (to give an idea of how 'free' Taiwan was back then). He was sentenced to 18 years in jail but Amnesty International brought his case to the spotlight and he was able to exile to Europe and America. He returned in 1996 to stand and President Lee allowed him to no longer be 'blacklisted'. President Lee later went on to side with the DPP, and in 2000 the DPP won the second election. Many in the KMT are angry at him for doing so. The DPP won a second term in 2004 after an attempted assassination on the President won sympathy, and then in 2008 the KMT won power back due to the DPP President embezzling public funds and losing public confidence. I went to the DPP rally tonight. It's the 5th Taiwanese election. I support the DPP because they lean towards the left. Taiwan is a very capitalist country, with a tax rate of 6%. As a result, you cannot go anywhere without seeing dozens of unemployed lying on the streets, too depressed to get up. Social welfare is limited to one single month and if you don't have family supporting you, you are fucked. Everything is user-pays - with the exception of our good public health system. Thanks for the background history, Taiwanese/ROC politics aren't exactly my strong suite. I realize that the President of the Republic of China has only been directly elected since 1996, but you did have democratic legislative elections for your parliament though, yes? Technically yes, but they were all KMT legislators and you could pretty much only vote for KMT legislators because if anyone dared to stand as a non-KMT member they would be tried for sedition and jailed as political prisoners. To get a good idea of Taiwan's historical background, it's worth reading this page and then going from the links there if you wish to read further: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident Wow that's interesting and pretty horrible, especially considering the "White Terror" that followed it for nearly 50 years. Something similar happened to Greece during the Cold War. At least Taiwan is free now, so do you support the current existence of the ROC? An "independent" Taiwan from the ROC and PRC? Or joining the PRC? Or something else? Personally I do support the KMT's goal of closer economic relations with China, because I think in the future China will be an economic powerhouse and it's best to start establishing trade relations with them now rather than be left behind. However, the current KMT politicians are all very corrupt - the KMT is the richest political party in the world, owning most of Taiwan's assets. President Ma's platform in 2008 included selling off these assets and returning the funds to the public (because these assets were historically owned by the public but then acquired through duress by the KMT - turning them from public assets into party assets). However, he has not done this - most likely because of pressure within the KMT. I do support closer economic relations with China, but I feel like the KMT need much more pressure first, from losing another election, before they will make any serious internal national changes, such as returning assets to the public and helping the poor in Taiwan. I would first like to see some social welfare changes, that to me is a more pressing concern than closer economic relations. I hope that makes sense. Basically I am not against the KMT's goals of economic prosperity. However, I feel like they still act like they deserve to be in government as of right and there is still a lot of corruption (e.g. vote buying - they bribe the city mayors to endorse them), therefore I think one more term in opposition would do them as well as the Taiwanese democratic system as a whole a lot more good. At the moment the KMT's economic goals are for the purpose of making their politicians richer (because their party owns the export industry). I hope that in the future their goals will be for the purpose of making the country's poorer people richer. I hadn't even thought of the issue of corruption and "黑金" but I think by now we are aware that both parties are guilty of 貪污 and as you mentioned -- much of the KMT's corruption is in the interest of global trade and the export industry. Part of the reason I am so torn during Taiwanese elections is that while I generally support the party that has the best economic vision going forward (that is, the most free market and innovation-inducing economic policy) -- there is always the underlying sovereignty issue that is hard to push to the sidelines in light of other policy decisions. Though I must say that, much like other Taiwanese, I am quite comfortable with the status quo and would gladly accept the status quo going forward in return for a more prosperous future for the Taiwanese people. After all, the central issue now is tackling affordability in the urban regions of the island (I cannot believe how absurdly expensive property in Taipei is now!! it's clear that wage growth has not kept pace with inflation, with regards to the average Taiwanese consumer basket), chronically low birth rate, and staying competitive. By the last item, I think while the Taiwanese gov't has done a decent job at moving the island's economy toward the future, increased support and subsidies to budding industries, along with rolling out increased world class infrastructure (both in consumer life and at technology parks) will cement Taiwan's competitiveness and innovation pace. Taiwan is stuck between a rock and a rock hard erection. This will be my last post in this thread for now as it is 4am here in Taiwan: I hope, hope, HOPE, you meant election.
Hmm, now that I think of it... I'd probably choose rock over a rock hard erection.
I forgot to mention... The position of Governor of Taiwan was later abolished due to the potential for its abuse of power, as (allegedly) demonstrated in Soong's case.
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tbh the spend money in contested district plan has been the case for every election so far in Taiwan, dunno why you'd get worked out about it at all, Taiwanese. Corruption is pretty much a given at this point, don't even see the point in trying to vote base on integrity.
Economic policy wise I simply can't agree with KMT's direction in the last four years so if I should fly back to vote I'd be voting DPP. Taiwan's relationship with China is pretty much cemented by this point and it is nigh impossible for the eventual outcome to be too different. Even if the DPP wins, at worst there would just be a short term fallout, so their differences in foreign policy are trivial at best far as I am concerned. For everything else all of the parties hardly differ in any important points.
On January 14 2012 05:30 Taiwanese wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 05:22 JinDesu wrote:On January 14 2012 05:18 Taiwanese wrote:On January 14 2012 03:53 d_wAy wrote:On January 14 2012 03:10 Taiwanese wrote:On January 14 2012 03:02 DrTyrant wrote:On January 14 2012 02:53 Taiwanese wrote:On January 14 2012 02:38 DrTyrant wrote:On January 14 2012 02:20 Taiwanese wrote:Thanks very much OP. On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote: I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States. That's because up until 1996, Taiwan did not have democratic elections. One year after the Tienanmen incident, the same protests happened in Taiwan in 1990. Thankfully, President Lee accepted the student protester's demands and made it so that after his six year term there would be an election. In 1996, President Lee won 53% to the DPP candidate's 24%. Random facts: The first ever DPP candidate, whose name escapes me, was persecuted by the KMT in the 70s for being politically active, distributing pamphlets at university advocating for democratic elections (to give an idea of how 'free' Taiwan was back then). He was sentenced to 18 years in jail but Amnesty International brought his case to the spotlight and he was able to exile to Europe and America. He returned in 1996 to stand and President Lee allowed him to no longer be 'blacklisted'. President Lee later went on to side with the DPP, and in 2000 the DPP won the second election. Many in the KMT are angry at him for doing so. The DPP won a second term in 2004 after an attempted assassination on the President won sympathy, and then in 2008 the KMT won power back due to the DPP President embezzling public funds and losing public confidence. I went to the DPP rally tonight. It's the 5th Taiwanese election. I support the DPP because they lean towards the left. Taiwan is a very capitalist country, with a tax rate of 6%. As a result, you cannot go anywhere without seeing dozens of unemployed lying on the streets, too depressed to get up. Social welfare is limited to one single month and if you don't have family supporting you, you are fucked. Everything is user-pays - with the exception of our good public health system. Thanks for the background history, Taiwanese/ROC politics aren't exactly my strong suite. I realize that the President of the Republic of China has only been directly elected since 1996, but you did have democratic legislative elections for your parliament though, yes? Technically yes, but they were all KMT legislators and you could pretty much only vote for KMT legislators because if anyone dared to stand as a non-KMT member they would be tried for sedition and jailed as political prisoners. To get a good idea of Taiwan's historical background, it's worth reading this page and then going from the links there if you wish to read further: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident Wow that's interesting and pretty horrible, especially considering the "White Terror" that followed it for nearly 50 years. Something similar happened to Greece during the Cold War. At least Taiwan is free now, so do you support the current existence of the ROC? An "independent" Taiwan from the ROC and PRC? Or joining the PRC? Or something else? Personally I do support the KMT's goal of closer economic relations with China, because I think in the future China will be an economic powerhouse and it's best to start establishing trade relations with them now rather than be left behind. However, the current KMT politicians are all very corrupt - the KMT is the richest political party in the world, owning most of Taiwan's assets. President Ma's platform in 2008 included selling off these assets and returning the funds to the public (because these assets were historically owned by the public but then acquired through duress by the KMT - turning them from public assets into party assets). However, he has not done this - most likely because of pressure within the KMT. I do support closer economic relations with China, but I feel like the KMT need much more pressure first, from losing another election, before they will make any serious internal national changes, such as returning assets to the public and helping the poor in Taiwan. I would first like to see some social welfare changes, that to me is a more pressing concern than closer economic relations. I hope that makes sense. Basically I am not against the KMT's goals of economic prosperity. However, I feel like they still act like they deserve to be in government as of right and there is still a lot of corruption (e.g. vote buying - they bribe the city mayors to endorse them), therefore I think one more term in opposition would do them as well as the Taiwanese democratic system as a whole a lot more good. At the moment the KMT's economic goals are for the purpose of making their politicians richer (because their party owns the export industry). I hope that in the future their goals will be for the purpose of making the country's poorer people richer. I hadn't even thought of the issue of corruption and "黑金" but I think by now we are aware that both parties are guilty of 貪污 and as you mentioned -- much of the KMT's corruption is in the interest of global trade and the export industry. Part of the reason I am so torn during Taiwanese elections is that while I generally support the party that has the best economic vision going forward (that is, the most free market and innovation-inducing economic policy) -- there is always the underlying sovereignty issue that is hard to push to the sidelines in light of other policy decisions. Though I must say that, much like other Taiwanese, I am quite comfortable with the status quo and would gladly accept the status quo going forward in return for a more prosperous future for the Taiwanese people. After all, the central issue now is tackling affordability in the urban regions of the island (I cannot believe how absurdly expensive property in Taipei is now!! it's clear that wage growth has not kept pace with inflation, with regards to the average Taiwanese consumer basket), chronically low birth rate, and staying competitive. By the last item, I think while the Taiwanese gov't has done a decent job at moving the island's economy toward the future, increased support and subsidies to budding industries, along with rolling out increased world class infrastructure (both in consumer life and at technology parks) will cement Taiwan's competitiveness and innovation pace. Taiwan is stuck between a rock and a rock hard erection. This will be my last post in this thread for now as it is 4am here in Taiwan: I hope, hope, HOPE, you meant election. Hmm, now that I think of it... I'd probably choose rock over a rock hard erection. I forgot to mention... The position of Governor of Taiwan was later abolished due to the potential for its abuse of power, as (allegedly) demonstrated in Soong's case. It was also signaling for Mainland iirc, was pretty young back then so hardly remembered all the political commentaries about it.
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Well from a quick glance,KMT looks like it wants to be reunited with China and is a somewhat moderate party,DPP is a progressive-humans rights party (my choice).I think reuniting with China would be terrible for the Taiwanese people specially in regards to the different culture and poltical systems,however i'm also a huge supporter of human rights movement and civil liberties so that's why i'm voting for the DPP.
There's no such thing as "unelectable," that's what the Obamabots said about Ron Paul and yet now Ron Paul is winning and dominating.
Winning?Where?He got 2nd and 3rd in two caucases(Iowa/N.Hampshire),that's not even a primary,theres no way he will be elected with this kind of support.Reddit and the constant spamming of social media by The Daily Paul supporters.And I believe he is also unelectable due to his extremely unpopular views of a libertatarian state,wich in history,has never been sucessfull.
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Merging with the mainland is a matter of time, the only question left is the extent of it and what the name will be given for Taiwan in the future. The Taiwanese economy is too married to the Chinese one at this point for any alternative to be viable. Honestly something like what HK is currently is probably what Taiwan will be years from now.
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Her given name literally means "English language" in Chinese so . . . Ms English is a pretty appropriate nickname.
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Like everyone else has said, corruption is a given for both parties, so both sides are pretty much equivalent in that regard. Although I tend to lean towards KMT, I actually like a lot of the DPP ideas. However, what I dislike about the DPP is that they tend to blow everything out of proportion. If you did not speak Taiwanese, you worked for the communists. If you studied abroad, you did not love Taiwan (this totally happened in 2000's), etc. etc. While I am sure both sides have said stupid things like this before, in recent years this seemed true for DPP.
Another problem I have with them is that if you were to break down Tsai's response to every question, she almost always dodge it. Yes that's right, her response usually can be sumed up as follows: "We are going to do a better job than KMT because they suck and we have a plan, they are all failures and achieved nothing for the past 4 years." Soong, on the otherhand, is just a joke at this point, and I agree that he's running not for presidency, but for another reason/possible deal worked out.
Not to mention a lot of Taiwan's economical income now a days is from tourism, so a fallout, even if short (although I don't believe it will be that short, because we have pretty much no leverage), would be pretty bad.
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For some reason I read the thread title as 'Taiwanese Electronics Thread' and I was going to post "well that's pretty much all of them" but then I noticed my error.
On January 14 2012 03:48 DrTyrant wrote: There's no such thing as "unelectable," that's what the Obamabots said about Ron Paul and yet now Ron Paul is winning and dominating. I wouldn't say he was dominating...
I'm sorry, I know nothing about politics in Taiwan, hopefully this thread will educate me.
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On January 14 2012 05:18 Taiwanese wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 03:53 d_wAy wrote:On January 14 2012 03:10 Taiwanese wrote:On January 14 2012 03:02 DrTyrant wrote:On January 14 2012 02:53 Taiwanese wrote:On January 14 2012 02:38 DrTyrant wrote:On January 14 2012 02:20 Taiwanese wrote:Thanks very much OP. On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote: I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States. That's because up until 1996, Taiwan did not have democratic elections. One year after the Tienanmen incident, the same protests happened in Taiwan in 1990. Thankfully, President Lee accepted the student protester's demands and made it so that after his six year term there would be an election. In 1996, President Lee won 53% to the DPP candidate's 24%. Random facts: The first ever DPP candidate, whose name escapes me, was persecuted by the KMT in the 70s for being politically active, distributing pamphlets at university advocating for democratic elections (to give an idea of how 'free' Taiwan was back then). He was sentenced to 18 years in jail but Amnesty International brought his case to the spotlight and he was able to exile to Europe and America. He returned in 1996 to stand and President Lee allowed him to no longer be 'blacklisted'. President Lee later went on to side with the DPP, and in 2000 the DPP won the second election. Many in the KMT are angry at him for doing so. The DPP won a second term in 2004 after an attempted assassination on the President won sympathy, and then in 2008 the KMT won power back due to the DPP President embezzling public funds and losing public confidence. I went to the DPP rally tonight. It's the 5th Taiwanese election. I support the DPP because they lean towards the left. Taiwan is a very capitalist country, with a tax rate of 6%. As a result, you cannot go anywhere without seeing dozens of unemployed lying on the streets, too depressed to get up. Social welfare is limited to one single month and if you don't have family supporting you, you are fucked. Everything is user-pays - with the exception of our good public health system. Thanks for the background history, Taiwanese/ROC politics aren't exactly my strong suite. I realize that the President of the Republic of China has only been directly elected since 1996, but you did have democratic legislative elections for your parliament though, yes? Technically yes, but they were all KMT legislators and you could pretty much only vote for KMT legislators because if anyone dared to stand as a non-KMT member they would be tried for sedition and jailed as political prisoners. To get a good idea of Taiwan's historical background, it's worth reading this page and then going from the links there if you wish to read further: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident Wow that's interesting and pretty horrible, especially considering the "White Terror" that followed it for nearly 50 years. Something similar happened to Greece during the Cold War. At least Taiwan is free now, so do you support the current existence of the ROC? An "independent" Taiwan from the ROC and PRC? Or joining the PRC? Or something else? Personally I do support the KMT's goal of closer economic relations with China, because I think in the future China will be an economic powerhouse and it's best to start establishing trade relations with them now rather than be left behind. However, the current KMT politicians are all very corrupt - the KMT is the richest political party in the world, owning most of Taiwan's assets. President Ma's platform in 2008 included selling off these assets and returning the funds to the public (because these assets were historically owned by the public but then acquired through duress by the KMT - turning them from public assets into party assets). However, he has not done this - most likely because of pressure within the KMT. I do support closer economic relations with China, but I feel like the KMT need much more pressure first, from losing another election, before they will make any serious internal national changes, such as returning assets to the public and helping the poor in Taiwan. I would first like to see some social welfare changes, that to me is a more pressing concern than closer economic relations. I hope that makes sense. Basically I am not against the KMT's goals of economic prosperity. However, I feel like they still act like they deserve to be in government as of right and there is still a lot of corruption (e.g. vote buying - they bribe the city mayors to endorse them), therefore I think one more term in opposition would do them as well as the Taiwanese democratic system as a whole a lot more good. At the moment the KMT's economic goals are for the purpose of making their politicians richer (because their party owns the export industry). I hope that in the future their goals will be for the purpose of making the country's poorer people richer. I hadn't even thought of the issue of corruption and "黑金" but I think by now we are aware that both parties are guilty of 貪污 and as you mentioned -- much of the KMT's corruption is in the interest of global trade and the export industry. Part of the reason I am so torn during Taiwanese elections is that while I generally support the party that has the best economic vision going forward (that is, the most free market and innovation-inducing economic policy) -- there is always the underlying sovereignty issue that is hard to push to the sidelines in light of other policy decisions. Though I must say that, much like other Taiwanese, I am quite comfortable with the status quo and would gladly accept the status quo going forward in return for a more prosperous future for the Taiwanese people. After all, the central issue now is tackling affordability in the urban regions of the island (I cannot believe how absurdly expensive property in Taipei is now!! it's clear that wage growth has not kept pace with inflation, with regards to the average Taiwanese consumer basket), chronically low birth rate, and staying competitive. By the last item, I think while the Taiwanese gov't has done a decent job at moving the island's economy toward the future, increased support and subsidies to budding industries, along with rolling out increased world class infrastructure (both in consumer life and at technology parks) will cement Taiwan's competitiveness and innovation pace. Taiwan is stuck between a rock and a rock hard erection. This will be my last post in this thread for now as it is 4am here in Taiwan: * Although I am right-wing at heart, having studied economics at university, I don't believe the status quo KMT's free market policies are working for Taiwan due to the lack of ceterus parabis (the externality preventing equilibrium being China). Theoretically there should be a trickle down effect - as the rich get richer, there will be more investment, and as a result more jobs for the poor in Taiwan - however, because of closer economic relations with China, the rich are in fact moving all their capital offshore to China and using their cheaper labour. As a result, the rich are getting richer, but the money is going to Taiwan's rich and China's poor, not Taiwan's rich and Taiwan's poor. So what does that mean for the poor in Taiwan? Unfortunately, the KMT and President Ma do not seem to have Taiwan's poor's interests at heart. Most of their politicians are Taiwan's rich, because all the industries are owned by the KMT, so want to move all their assets offshore to China in order to make more money. It is my belief that the DPP, which is made up of mostly farmers, university lecturers and lawyers (as opposed to the KMT, which is made up of career politicians whose parents were also politicians when KMT had autocratic rule), who own pretty much zero assets and relies heavily on donations, who will try harder to do something for the poor in Taiwan. As an economist, I hesitate to support DPP policies such as the state subsidising local industries, but what other options are there to help the poor and create jobs? According to the free market, Taiwan is a 'failed business' that should be 'left to die' and the economically efficient 'Chinese business' will continue to prosper. * Someone mentioned earlier that I was biased against James Soong's PFP. By default, I should be supporting him. Why? My dad is tight as fuck with Chang Chau-hsiung - his running mate for the last two elections - we are close family friends and his kids babysat me and my sister when we were younger. Soong is a clever politician. He isn't in this election to win the Presidency - in fact, he is gambling that English will win. Every single interview he has had leading up to this election he has attacked President Ma only. He's been on the DPP's TV stations for lengthy interviews (in Taiwan, the TV stations are all openly partisan). My dad's theory is that he is hoping that if English wins, English will give him an influential position, such as Premier. He has either thrown all his eggs in one basket, or alternatively already made a deal in secret with the DPP to only attack the KMT in interviews and speeches and not the DPP. Despite our close family ties with the PFP, I will never respect Soong. When he was a KMT member in the 20th Century, as Education Minister he banned the speaking of the native Taiwanese language and was strongly pro-unification with China (this is before China became more capitalist and free - i.e. when the Communist government would run over citizens with tanks). Today he gives his speeches in the native Taiwanes language - hypocrite. But that's not the worst. When he served under President Lee, he was the Governor of Taiwan - someone who was in charge of all public finances of every district in Taiwan. The next part is hearsay so I emphasise it is my analysis and opinion - make up your own mind by studying Taiwanese history if you like and some sort of disclaimer about how you should not click the spoiler and by clicking on it you are agreeing not to notify Soong so that he can sue me for defamation since being an average citizen of limited means I can't afford to hire a lawyer: + Show Spoiler +His goal was to become President after President Lee. So he spent his time as Governor effectively 'bribing' every single district. For example, if South Taiwan (Tainan) needed a billion dollars for a construction project, he would give the mayor two billion. And then say to that mayor - endorse me and you can keep the balance. This is how he became so popular - almost every mayor would say he was fantastic because they personally benefitted. Those who didn't received little funding and as a result their districts would suffer from poverty. President Lee saw what was going on, and despite being a KMT President, because he secretly supported the DPP and Taiwan independence, he chose Lien as his successor, as opposed to Soong. This infuriated Soong, who left the KMT to form the PFP and as a result made the 2000 election a three-way contest between Soong, Lien and Chen. Soong was on track to win, but President Lee released financial statements revealing Soong's 'unbalanced accounts' which resulted in the voters all finding out about the above paragraph which I wrote in the spoilers. Anyway, I've got to get some rest now so I don't end up sleeping in past when the ballot closes today. Blah, when writing long posts like this, I always feel like I've left something out and will need to come back to post again later.
I have no respect for Lee or his Pan-Green stand. This is the guy who declared that Diaoyu Islands belongs to Japan (talk about maintaining the soverignty of Taiwan), and often visits the Japan's Matyr Shrine, those who massacred, enslaved and raped the Taiwanese people during WWII, and prefer to be called Iwasato masao in Japan.
Talking about Taiwan Independence. Both Tsai & Ma stated that Taiwan is already a soverign nation. There would be no president election if it is not already a nation. If you want a name change you will surely suffer the wrath of China. Let me tell you, the DPP's stand on Independence is all words and no action. If Tsai is elected today, she will not declare indpence during her term, so why even bother.
On the topic of economic reliance on China. We are living in a globalized economy now and FTAs is forming left and right. Taiwan cannot compete with other countries (such as ASEAN+1) unless it also forms FTA with other nations. Problem is China will never allow Taiwan to form FTA with other nations unless Taiwan is on amiable term with China. During Ma's term, he did exactly this, he formed ECFA with China, which is/will opening up Taiwan's door to other nations. Sad truth is, under the last president Chen's terms, Taiwan lost it's initiative to open trade partnerships with other nations when he worsen the relationships between both China and the US, and thus effectively closes Taiwan's door and lost it's economic powess that it used to have.
Speaking of corruption, most agrees that Ma is most anti-corrupt president in Taiwan's history while Chen is still serving terms due to his corruption. Point is, while KMT was definiately corrupt, the DPP is not far off as well. Power changes people I guess.
Lastly, let's talk about ability to run the nation between Tsai and Ma. Ma has been the mayor of the capital of Taiwan, Taipei for 2 terms before he ran for presidency while Tsai has no experience in running a township or a city, so how would one trust her to govern a nation? You may say that she's been the vice premier, but keep in mind that vice premier role is minimal and she only served briefly for about a year. So when you do vote this time, have these thoughts in the back of your head.
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Yes give the money to the rich the trickle down economics will save us all!
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On January 14 2012 06:33 xenoid wrote: Yes give the money to the rich the trickle down economics will save us all! Tell me which country beside N. Korea is not doing the same?
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On January 14 2012 06:36 FindMeInKenya wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 06:33 xenoid wrote: Yes give the money to the rich the trickle down economics will save us all! Tell me which country beside N. Korea is not doing the same? That's not my point. It's just hilarious to see someone support ideas that only hurt themselves and there's been a good bunch in this thread so far.
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On January 14 2012 06:54 xenoid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 06:36 FindMeInKenya wrote:On January 14 2012 06:33 xenoid wrote: Yes give the money to the rich the trickle down economics will save us all! Tell me which country beside N. Korea is not doing the same? That's not my point. It's just hilarious to see someone support ideas that only hurt themselves and there's been a good bunch in this thread so far. It sure is easy to laugh at the sideline i guess.
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On January 14 2012 06:20 FindMeInKenya wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 05:18 Taiwanese wrote:On January 14 2012 03:53 d_wAy wrote:On January 14 2012 03:10 Taiwanese wrote:On January 14 2012 03:02 DrTyrant wrote:On January 14 2012 02:53 Taiwanese wrote:On January 14 2012 02:38 DrTyrant wrote:On January 14 2012 02:20 Taiwanese wrote:Thanks very much OP. On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote: I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States. That's because up until 1996, Taiwan did not have democratic elections. One year after the Tienanmen incident, the same protests happened in Taiwan in 1990. Thankfully, President Lee accepted the student protester's demands and made it so that after his six year term there would be an election. In 1996, President Lee won 53% to the DPP candidate's 24%. Random facts: The first ever DPP candidate, whose name escapes me, was persecuted by the KMT in the 70s for being politically active, distributing pamphlets at university advocating for democratic elections (to give an idea of how 'free' Taiwan was back then). He was sentenced to 18 years in jail but Amnesty International brought his case to the spotlight and he was able to exile to Europe and America. He returned in 1996 to stand and President Lee allowed him to no longer be 'blacklisted'. President Lee later went on to side with the DPP, and in 2000 the DPP won the second election. Many in the KMT are angry at him for doing so. The DPP won a second term in 2004 after an attempted assassination on the President won sympathy, and then in 2008 the KMT won power back due to the DPP President embezzling public funds and losing public confidence. I went to the DPP rally tonight. It's the 5th Taiwanese election. I support the DPP because they lean towards the left. Taiwan is a very capitalist country, with a tax rate of 6%. As a result, you cannot go anywhere without seeing dozens of unemployed lying on the streets, too depressed to get up. Social welfare is limited to one single month and if you don't have family supporting you, you are fucked. Everything is user-pays - with the exception of our good public health system. Thanks for the background history, Taiwanese/ROC politics aren't exactly my strong suite. I realize that the President of the Republic of China has only been directly elected since 1996, but you did have democratic legislative elections for your parliament though, yes? Technically yes, but they were all KMT legislators and you could pretty much only vote for KMT legislators because if anyone dared to stand as a non-KMT member they would be tried for sedition and jailed as political prisoners. To get a good idea of Taiwan's historical background, it's worth reading this page and then going from the links there if you wish to read further: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident Wow that's interesting and pretty horrible, especially considering the "White Terror" that followed it for nearly 50 years. Something similar happened to Greece during the Cold War. At least Taiwan is free now, so do you support the current existence of the ROC? An "independent" Taiwan from the ROC and PRC? Or joining the PRC? Or something else? Personally I do support the KMT's goal of closer economic relations with China, because I think in the future China will be an economic powerhouse and it's best to start establishing trade relations with them now rather than be left behind. However, the current KMT politicians are all very corrupt - the KMT is the richest political party in the world, owning most of Taiwan's assets. President Ma's platform in 2008 included selling off these assets and returning the funds to the public (because these assets were historically owned by the public but then acquired through duress by the KMT - turning them from public assets into party assets). However, he has not done this - most likely because of pressure within the KMT. I do support closer economic relations with China, but I feel like the KMT need much more pressure first, from losing another election, before they will make any serious internal national changes, such as returning assets to the public and helping the poor in Taiwan. I would first like to see some social welfare changes, that to me is a more pressing concern than closer economic relations. I hope that makes sense. Basically I am not against the KMT's goals of economic prosperity. However, I feel like they still act like they deserve to be in government as of right and there is still a lot of corruption (e.g. vote buying - they bribe the city mayors to endorse them), therefore I think one more term in opposition would do them as well as the Taiwanese democratic system as a whole a lot more good. At the moment the KMT's economic goals are for the purpose of making their politicians richer (because their party owns the export industry). I hope that in the future their goals will be for the purpose of making the country's poorer people richer. I hadn't even thought of the issue of corruption and "黑金" but I think by now we are aware that both parties are guilty of 貪污 and as you mentioned -- much of the KMT's corruption is in the interest of global trade and the export industry. Part of the reason I am so torn during Taiwanese elections is that while I generally support the party that has the best economic vision going forward (that is, the most free market and innovation-inducing economic policy) -- there is always the underlying sovereignty issue that is hard to push to the sidelines in light of other policy decisions. Though I must say that, much like other Taiwanese, I am quite comfortable with the status quo and would gladly accept the status quo going forward in return for a more prosperous future for the Taiwanese people. After all, the central issue now is tackling affordability in the urban regions of the island (I cannot believe how absurdly expensive property in Taipei is now!! it's clear that wage growth has not kept pace with inflation, with regards to the average Taiwanese consumer basket), chronically low birth rate, and staying competitive. By the last item, I think while the Taiwanese gov't has done a decent job at moving the island's economy toward the future, increased support and subsidies to budding industries, along with rolling out increased world class infrastructure (both in consumer life and at technology parks) will cement Taiwan's competitiveness and innovation pace. Taiwan is stuck between a rock and a rock hard erection. This will be my last post in this thread for now as it is 4am here in Taiwan: * Although I am right-wing at heart, having studied economics at university, I don't believe the status quo KMT's free market policies are working for Taiwan due to the lack of ceterus parabis (the externality preventing equilibrium being China). Theoretically there should be a trickle down effect - as the rich get richer, there will be more investment, and as a result more jobs for the poor in Taiwan - however, because of closer economic relations with China, the rich are in fact moving all their capital offshore to China and using their cheaper labour. As a result, the rich are getting richer, but the money is going to Taiwan's rich and China's poor, not Taiwan's rich and Taiwan's poor. So what does that mean for the poor in Taiwan? Unfortunately, the KMT and President Ma do not seem to have Taiwan's poor's interests at heart. Most of their politicians are Taiwan's rich, because all the industries are owned by the KMT, so want to move all their assets offshore to China in order to make more money. It is my belief that the DPP, which is made up of mostly farmers, university lecturers and lawyers (as opposed to the KMT, which is made up of career politicians whose parents were also politicians when KMT had autocratic rule), who own pretty much zero assets and relies heavily on donations, who will try harder to do something for the poor in Taiwan. As an economist, I hesitate to support DPP policies such as the state subsidising local industries, but what other options are there to help the poor and create jobs? According to the free market, Taiwan is a 'failed business' that should be 'left to die' and the economically efficient 'Chinese business' will continue to prosper. * Someone mentioned earlier that I was biased against James Soong's PFP. By default, I should be supporting him. Why? My dad is tight as fuck with Chang Chau-hsiung - his running mate for the last two elections - we are close family friends and his kids babysat me and my sister when we were younger. Soong is a clever politician. He isn't in this election to win the Presidency - in fact, he is gambling that English will win. Every single interview he has had leading up to this election he has attacked President Ma only. He's been on the DPP's TV stations for lengthy interviews (in Taiwan, the TV stations are all openly partisan). My dad's theory is that he is hoping that if English wins, English will give him an influential position, such as Premier. He has either thrown all his eggs in one basket, or alternatively already made a deal in secret with the DPP to only attack the KMT in interviews and speeches and not the DPP. Despite our close family ties with the PFP, I will never respect Soong. When he was a KMT member in the 20th Century, as Education Minister he banned the speaking of the native Taiwanese language and was strongly pro-unification with China (this is before China became more capitalist and free - i.e. when the Communist government would run over citizens with tanks). Today he gives his speeches in the native Taiwanes language - hypocrite. But that's not the worst. When he served under President Lee, he was the Governor of Taiwan - someone who was in charge of all public finances of every district in Taiwan. The next part is hearsay so I emphasise it is my analysis and opinion - make up your own mind by studying Taiwanese history if you like and some sort of disclaimer about how you should not click the spoiler and by clicking on it you are agreeing not to notify Soong so that he can sue me for defamation since being an average citizen of limited means I can't afford to hire a lawyer: + Show Spoiler +His goal was to become President after President Lee. So he spent his time as Governor effectively 'bribing' every single district. For example, if South Taiwan (Tainan) needed a billion dollars for a construction project, he would give the mayor two billion. And then say to that mayor - endorse me and you can keep the balance. This is how he became so popular - almost every mayor would say he was fantastic because they personally benefitted. Those who didn't received little funding and as a result their districts would suffer from poverty. President Lee saw what was going on, and despite being a KMT President, because he secretly supported the DPP and Taiwan independence, he chose Lien as his successor, as opposed to Soong. This infuriated Soong, who left the KMT to form the PFP and as a result made the 2000 election a three-way contest between Soong, Lien and Chen. Soong was on track to win, but President Lee released financial statements revealing Soong's 'unbalanced accounts' which resulted in the voters all finding out about the above paragraph which I wrote in the spoilers. Anyway, I've got to get some rest now so I don't end up sleeping in past when the ballot closes today. Blah, when writing long posts like this, I always feel like I've left something out and will need to come back to post again later. I have no respect for Lee or his Pan-Green stand. This is the guy who declared that Diaoyu Islands belongs to Japan (talk about maintaining the soverignty of Taiwan), and often visits the Japan's Matyr Shrine, those who massacred, enslaved and raped the Taiwanese people during WWII, and prefer to be called Iwasato masao in Japan. Talking about Taiwan Independence. Both Tsai & Ma stated that Taiwan is already a soverign nation. There would be no president election if it is not already a nation. If you want a name change you will surely suffer the wrath of China. Let me tell you, the DPP's stand on Independence is all words and no action. If Tsai is elected today, she will not declare indpence during her term, so why even bother. On the topic of economic reliance on China. We are living in a globalized economy now and FTAs is forming left and right. Taiwan cannot compete with other countries (such as ASEAN+1) unless it also forms FTA with other nations. Problem is China will never allow Taiwan to form FTA with other nations unless Taiwan is on amiable term with China. During Ma's term, he did exactly this, he formed ECFA with China, which is/will opening up Taiwan's door to other nations. Sad truth is, under the last president Chen's terms, Taiwan lost it's initiative to open trade partnerships with other nations when he worsen the relationships between both China and the US, and thus effectively closes Taiwan's door and lost it's economic powess that it used to have. Speaking of corruption, most agrees that Ma is most anti-corrupt president in Taiwan's history while Chen is still serving terms due to his corruption. Point is, while KMT was definiately corrupt, the DPP is not far off as well. Power changes people I guess. Lastly, let's talk about ability to run the nation between Tsai and Ma. Ma has been the mayor of the capital of Taiwan, Taipei for 2 terms before he ran for presidency while Tsai has no experience in running a township or a city, so how would one trust her to govern a nation? You may say that she's been the vice premier, but keep in mind that vice premier role is minimal and she only served briefly for about a year. So when you do vote this time, have these thoughts in the back of your head.
Firstly, if not for President Lee, Taiwan would not be having democratic elections. If you want to talk about massacre and rape the KMT are just as responsible for the murdering of Taiwanese citizens and their ill-treatment as the Japanese. While China ran over protesters with tanks in 1989, President Lee invited the student protesters in to discuss how the elections would be held. It is because of him that the DPP even grew to the size it is now in order for there to be fair competition in the elections. From Wikipedia:
+ Show Spoiler +1990 saw the arrival of the Wild Lily student movement on behalf of full democracy for Taiwan. Thousands of Taiwanese students demonstrated for democratic reforms. The demonstrations culminated in a sit-in demonstration by over 300,000 students at Memorial Square in Taipei. Students called for direct elections of the national president and vice president and for a new election for all legislative seats. On 21 March Lee welcomed some of the students to the Presidential Building. He expressed his support of their goals and pledged his commitment to full democracy in Taiwan. The moment is regarded by supporters of democracy in Taiwan as perhaps his finest moment in office. Gatherings recalling the student movement are regularly held around Taiwan every 21 March.
In May 1991 Lee spearheaded a drive to eliminate the Temporary Provisions Effective During the Period of Communist Rebellion, laws put in place following the KMT arrival in 1949 that suspended the democratic functions of the government. In December 1991 the original members of the Legislative Yuan, elected to represent mainland China constituencies in 1948, were forced to resign and new elections were held to apportion more seats to the bensheng ren. The elections forced Hau Pei-tsun from the premiership, a position he was given in exchange for his tacit support of Lee. He was replaced by Lien Chan, then an ally of Lee.
The prospect of the first island-wide democratic election the next year, together with Lee's June 1995 visit to Cornell University, sparked the Third Taiwan Strait Crisis. The previous eight presidents and vice-presidents of Taiwan had been elected by the members of the National Assembly. For the first time Taiwan's leader would be elected by majority vote of Taiwan's population. The People's Republic of China conducted a series of missile tests in the waters surrounding Taiwan and other military maneuvers off the coast of Fujian in response to what Communist Party leaders described as moves by Lee to "split the motherland." The PRC government launched another set of tests just days before the election, sending missiles over the island to express its dissatisfaction should the Taiwanese people vote for Lee. The military actions disrupted trade and shipping lines and caused a temporary dip in the Asian stock market. Ironically, the 1996 missile launches boosted support for Lee instead.
Trivia: It was President Lee who encouraged DPP members to storm Parliament so that it would become international news, raising awareness about the KMT totalitarian makeup of Parliament where many of their leading members never had to be elected which is what is responsible for the culture of Parliamentary brawls.
Secondly, I hardly care about what Taiwan is called namewise - which of course is what the KMT want people to believe the 'sovereignty' issue is about. What I am concerned about is Taiwan's international presence and trading ability being bullied by China. You make the sovereignty issue into something as if it's just a name - it's not, it includes significant international implications such as the ability to trade as a sovereign nation without having other nations be under duress by China for trading with Taiwan (e.g. China threatening other nations with trade sanctions if they dare establish trading relationships with Taiwan) - take UN membership for example:
+ Show Spoiler +Don’t Put Taiwan’s Democracy and Freedom back into a Box Koo Kwang-ming 辜寬敏
"A long, long time ago…" are the words that many of the old stories begin with. Today, I would like to share with you a true story about Taiwan that the US and the world have deliberately ignored for a long, long time. I believe that maybe 70 percent to 80 percent of the US public knows that Taiwan is a country. At the same time, however, maybe only 1 percent of Americans know that Taiwan is not a member of the UN, and maybe only 0.001 percent know why this is so.
The truth I want to tell you about is this: our country, Taiwan, has been isolated by the UN in an act of political discrimination that has lasted for more than 36 years. It is the only country in the world to be denied UN membership. The human rights of 23 million Taiwanese have been ignored by the UN for a long, long time, and the US government has helped making it the case.
Just as Ralph Ellison said that African Americans once were the invisible man of American society, Taiwan is now the " invisible" member of the international community. What is worse is that omit to the democratic Taiwan has been living in the shadow of China’s constant threat. China has now deployed almost 1,000 missiles aimed at Taiwan and is threatening annexation of Taiwan at any time.
Although China is a totalitarian and dictatorial communist state, the US unfortunately has sided with the Chinese dictatorship to suppress Taiwan’s democracy. This is both incomprehensible and deplorable. The US government called Iraq a terrorist state and stood up against Iraq when it invaded Kuwait, but chooses to look at China's military expansion and intimidation with one eye closed. I must admonish the US government: "Washington’s appeasement of China resembles nothing but the British prime minister Neville Chamberlain’s appeasement of Hitler prior to the Second World War!"
If "Taiwan is not a state", the U.S. has the responsibility Dennis Wilder, the senior director of East Asian Affairs on the US' National Security Council, recently said that "Taiwan is not a state." This has outraged and humiliated the Taiwanese people. But we also felt a sense of relief when he added that Taiwan issue has been left undecided for a long long time. The U.S. government has finally decided to face a fact that it has turned a blind eye to for half a century. The truth is: Taiwan is a country with 23 million people, who can freely elect their own leaders. We have the capacities to exercise our sovereign powers both domestically and on the international front. The US government’s refusal to recognize Taiwan as a sovereign state cannot challenge the reality that Taiwan has been a sovereign state for decades.
Moreover, if Taiwan is not a sovereign state in the eyes of US government officials, I must ask if the US has no responsibility for this situation? The 1952 San Francisco Peace Treaty that concluded World War II did not clarify Taiwan's status, and for a long time after, the US approved Chiang Kai-shek's brutal military occupation of Taiwan which imposed 38 years of martial law that left Taiwanese in darkness and isolation.
From the 1950s to the 1980s, tens of thousands of Taiwanese sacrificed their lives and freedom in their struggle to overthrow the dictatorship and to gain democracy and liberty. That heavy price was paid not only for the cause of democracy and freedom, but also because we longed to establish a new and sovereign state as the unavoidable conclusion to centuries of colonial rule and struggle for independence. I think this is something the American people can understand and identify with.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." What the Taiwanese people have been striving for the past decades is the realization of nothing but this famous and courageous statement in the United States Declaration of Independence. With the consolidation of democracy in Taiwan, we feel proud to say that we have gradually advanced our causes. We are still working hard toward our goal.
But when the Taiwanese people want to rely on a democratic referendum and self determination to confirm Taiwan's status as a sovereign state, the US government says, "You can't do that." When we want to hold a referendum to manifest the wish of all Taiwanese to join the United Nations, the US government says, "You can't do that." The US government encourages Taiwan to develop its democracy, but also warns us that we can't hold referendums or declare independence, all because of the fear of provoking Beijing. The US government is even opposed to Taiwan having its own constitution, own flag or own national anthem that are necessary for building a nation that can withstand Chinese pressure. Is this sensible? Is this the right message the US should be sending to Communist dictators?
Why democratic Taiwan can’t join the UN? At present, 77 percent of Taiwanese want Taiwan to join the UN and become a member of this family of nations. We therefore hope that the presidential election next year will include a referendum to allow every Taiwanese to use his or her vote to manifest their wish that Taiwan be allowed to join the UN and use the collective will of the Taiwanese people to tell the world that we are not happy with the current situation. This simple and humble democratic expression, however, is forcefully opposed and suppressed by the US government, and this causes disappointment and anger among the people of Taiwan who have placed high hopes on the US and its great people.
Taiwan and North Korea are both countries with about 23 million people. Taiwan’s economic and democratic achievements are something that North Korea cannot match. However, Washington, even without recognizing North Korea as a sovereign state, did not oppose Pyongyang’s UN bid in the 1990s. In comparison, the U.S. government’s treatment of democratic Taiwan is both disappointing and disturbing. Shouldn't the human rights of 23 million Taiwanese be respected? We know that the US opposition to Taiwan’s UN membership is a result of China’s bullying for military tension in the Taiwan Strait. However, if cooperating with China to suppress democratic Taiwan is the best solution that Washington authorities can come up with after 60 years, we must ask if US intellectual leadership on this matter is already a thing of the past.
As long as Taiwan is not a member of the UN, that organization will always suffer from a flaw in its conscience. As long as the US doesn't help Taiwan become a normal country and gain UN membership, it will always carry a stamp of shame.
It’s time for the US to reevaluate its policy on the Taiwan Strait. In 2003, I published a statement in this newspaper telling the US government it was time for a serious reevaluation of its China policy because it is absurd to see a country adhere to a flawed policy for three decades. The status quo in the Taiwan Strait today has changed completely from the status quo of 30 years ago. According to the latest Taiwanese opinion polls, 70 percent of Taiwanese see themselves as Taiwanese and 75 percent think that Taiwan is an independent and sovereign state. The Shanghai communiqué of 1972 which states that, "all Chinese on either side of the Taiwan Strait maintain there is but one China and that Taiwan is a part of China" was never true.
The US government must take a square look at this political reality lest it keep making mistakes in its Taiwan policy and make serious political misjudgments in the Asia Pacific region The US was completely powerless to stop the massive Chinese military buildup across the Taiwan Strait. But the US is not powerless if it chooses to strengthen Taiwan’s democracy and nation-building that are necessary for the Taiwanese to withstand Chinese pressure. The US can also tell the Chinese that their bullying of Taiwan is counterproductive, that the resultant resentment the Taiwanese feel toward the Chinese will only make the eventual reconciliation more difficult.
Taiwan shall overcome! For the past ten years, China has tried to strangle Taiwan with its military threats and diplomatic blockade. But in spite of their efforts, Taiwan has managed to survive. I want to tell the world that Taiwan still exists! This small and beautiful country still exists in the West Pacific. The mighty Taiwanese people will fight for our beloved country till the end! As God and the American people are our witnesses:We will not be defeated; Taiwan shall overcome! The constant bullying by the Chinese to deny our identity only hardened our resolve to fight for independence and international recognition!
"You can’t put democracy and freedom back into a box," said President George W. Bush. For all these years, on our way to democratization, Taiwanese people have received enormous support and encouragement from our American friends. As democratic Taiwan requires the moral support of the international community when its people make a free decision on their future, I call on all great Americans and their representatives to tell the US government and the UN:
"Don’t put Taiwan’s democracy and freedom back into a box!" "Help Taiwan join the UN!"
(The writer was a former senior adviser to the President of Taiwan ) (The article was published in Washington Post and NY Times on September 17, 2007)
Also note that Taiwan was unable to join the World Health Organization also which results in Taiwan having inferior healthcare resources compared to nations who can join - all because China isn't happy with Taiwan being involved internationally with other countries. It's not like the DPP don't want to achieve things such as free trade - but how is this possible when there is a neighbouring bullying nation that tells the rest of the world not to associate with you out of nationalist pride? It is China that cares more about the name than Taiwanese. What we want are the economic benefits (as well as the dignity) of nationhood.
The problem with President Ma's policies is that it is moving Taiwanese businesses offshore and resulting in China draining Taiwan's ability to compete internationally. I agree Taiwan eventually has to open up closer economic relations with China. But at the moment we are at an unfair disadvantage where China can call all the shots. As I mentioned in my previous post, according to the free market Taiwan is a failed company that would be liquidated whilst China continues on as a thriving monopoly.
Thirdly - if you think President Ma is not corrupt why is he so rich? His parents (who were government officials) were corrupt. He has no need to be corrupt. His 'corruption' is not going after the KMT's politicians who have been corrupt, and instead protecting them. One of his election platforms in 2008 was to sell off KMT assets and return the money to the public purse. He hasn't done this and the KMT politicians are happy about that. FTR I agree ex-President Chen also has no excuse for his corruption.
+ Show Spoiler +On this note though... Many have said the DPP are just as corrupt as the KMT. Not true. Proportionally they are nowhere near. The KMT mass murdered Taiwanese in order to gain all of Taiwan's assets and are still benefiting from them (being POEs - Party Owned Assets - not State Owned Assets. The KMT politicians are not being pursued in court because the judiciary is controlled by the KMT. The judiciary accepts 97% mainland Chinese as judges and 3% Taiwanese to become judges due to an archaic law enacted when China took over Taiwan after Japan that has not been changed. The first time ex-President Chen was tried the judge ruled that further evidence had to be collated before he was indicted according to law, he was fired the next day. My friend is taking the examination to become a judge and says everyone has to say they are supporters of the KMT otherwise they are basically disqualified due to the government officials in charge of the induction process. The KMT never go after their hundreds of politicians who are corrupt, and their corruption financially is in the hundreds of billions compared to the DPP). People who say the DPP are just as corrupt as the KMT are comparing apples to apple orchards.
Lastly - do you seriously think Tsai will not have the advice and support of prominent DPP members such as Frank Hsieh, Su Tseng-chang, ex-vice-President Annette Lu and Yu Shyi-kun who all have a wealth of governing experience. If you want to talk governing experience President Ma was a relative amateur in experience compared to many KMT politicians when he first stood for President and was in my opinion not a good mayor for Taipei, hardly solving any of its urban issues during his mayoralty.
Edit: For an idea of how the KMT dealt with the DPP prior to President Lee, see here - many of the prominent DPP members were political prisoners and lawyers involved with this historically tragic incident:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaohsiung_Incident
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I got no sleep.
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The KMT is definitely more corrupt than the DPP if you're just speaking of the amount of public money they've been able to siphon off into their own coffers in their *many* years of rule. That said, it's a pretty fair observation to say that pretty much all politicians in Taiwan are corrupt anyway to a certain extent, and as such their competence becomes the main issue. I agree with most of the DPP's stances, particularly regarding wariness of the PRC and national sovereignty, but they haven't been able to prove their competence in governing and I'd vote KMT if only because while they'll still steal from you, at least they get more shit done.
It's a bit understandable that the DPP isn't as good at getting things done compared to the KMT, since... well, the KMT *was* the government for 60+ years and all the relations with businesses and under-the-table deals were done with the KMT. Still, the reality of it is that you can't just vote with your heart and emotions, and while I really do detest a lot of the KMT, I recognize they're probably the better choice at the moment, until the DPP gets its act together, in terms of concrete action.
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On January 14 2012 07:03 Taiwanese wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 06:20 FindMeInKenya wrote:On January 14 2012 05:18 Taiwanese wrote:On January 14 2012 03:53 d_wAy wrote:On January 14 2012 03:10 Taiwanese wrote:On January 14 2012 03:02 DrTyrant wrote:On January 14 2012 02:53 Taiwanese wrote:On January 14 2012 02:38 DrTyrant wrote:On January 14 2012 02:20 Taiwanese wrote:Thanks very much OP. On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote: I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States. That's because up until 1996, Taiwan did not have democratic elections. One year after the Tienanmen incident, the same protests happened in Taiwan in 1990. Thankfully, President Lee accepted the student protester's demands and made it so that after his six year term there would be an election. In 1996, President Lee won 53% to the DPP candidate's 24%. Random facts: The first ever DPP candidate, whose name escapes me, was persecuted by the KMT in the 70s for being politically active, distributing pamphlets at university advocating for democratic elections (to give an idea of how 'free' Taiwan was back then). He was sentenced to 18 years in jail but Amnesty International brought his case to the spotlight and he was able to exile to Europe and America. He returned in 1996 to stand and President Lee allowed him to no longer be 'blacklisted'. President Lee later went on to side with the DPP, and in 2000 the DPP won the second election. Many in the KMT are angry at him for doing so. The DPP won a second term in 2004 after an attempted assassination on the President won sympathy, and then in 2008 the KMT won power back due to the DPP President embezzling public funds and losing public confidence. I went to the DPP rally tonight. It's the 5th Taiwanese election. I support the DPP because they lean towards the left. Taiwan is a very capitalist country, with a tax rate of 6%. As a result, you cannot go anywhere without seeing dozens of unemployed lying on the streets, too depressed to get up. Social welfare is limited to one single month and if you don't have family supporting you, you are fucked. Everything is user-pays - with the exception of our good public health system. Thanks for the background history, Taiwanese/ROC politics aren't exactly my strong suite. I realize that the President of the Republic of China has only been directly elected since 1996, but you did have democratic legislative elections for your parliament though, yes? Technically yes, but they were all KMT legislators and you could pretty much only vote for KMT legislators because if anyone dared to stand as a non-KMT member they would be tried for sedition and jailed as political prisoners. To get a good idea of Taiwan's historical background, it's worth reading this page and then going from the links there if you wish to read further: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident Wow that's interesting and pretty horrible, especially considering the "White Terror" that followed it for nearly 50 years. Something similar happened to Greece during the Cold War. At least Taiwan is free now, so do you support the current existence of the ROC? An "independent" Taiwan from the ROC and PRC? Or joining the PRC? Or something else? Personally I do support the KMT's goal of closer economic relations with China, because I think in the future China will be an economic powerhouse and it's best to start establishing trade relations with them now rather than be left behind. However, the current KMT politicians are all very corrupt - the KMT is the richest political party in the world, owning most of Taiwan's assets. President Ma's platform in 2008 included selling off these assets and returning the funds to the public (because these assets were historically owned by the public but then acquired through duress by the KMT - turning them from public assets into party assets). However, he has not done this - most likely because of pressure within the KMT. I do support closer economic relations with China, but I feel like the KMT need much more pressure first, from losing another election, before they will make any serious internal national changes, such as returning assets to the public and helping the poor in Taiwan. I would first like to see some social welfare changes, that to me is a more pressing concern than closer economic relations. I hope that makes sense. Basically I am not against the KMT's goals of economic prosperity. However, I feel like they still act like they deserve to be in government as of right and there is still a lot of corruption (e.g. vote buying - they bribe the city mayors to endorse them), therefore I think one more term in opposition would do them as well as the Taiwanese democratic system as a whole a lot more good. At the moment the KMT's economic goals are for the purpose of making their politicians richer (because their party owns the export industry). I hope that in the future their goals will be for the purpose of making the country's poorer people richer. I hadn't even thought of the issue of corruption and "黑金" but I think by now we are aware that both parties are guilty of 貪污 and as you mentioned -- much of the KMT's corruption is in the interest of global trade and the export industry. Part of the reason I am so torn during Taiwanese elections is that while I generally support the party that has the best economic vision going forward (that is, the most free market and innovation-inducing economic policy) -- there is always the underlying sovereignty issue that is hard to push to the sidelines in light of other policy decisions. Though I must say that, much like other Taiwanese, I am quite comfortable with the status quo and would gladly accept the status quo going forward in return for a more prosperous future for the Taiwanese people. After all, the central issue now is tackling affordability in the urban regions of the island (I cannot believe how absurdly expensive property in Taipei is now!! it's clear that wage growth has not kept pace with inflation, with regards to the average Taiwanese consumer basket), chronically low birth rate, and staying competitive. By the last item, I think while the Taiwanese gov't has done a decent job at moving the island's economy toward the future, increased support and subsidies to budding industries, along with rolling out increased world class infrastructure (both in consumer life and at technology parks) will cement Taiwan's competitiveness and innovation pace. Taiwan is stuck between a rock and a rock hard erection. This will be my last post in this thread for now as it is 4am here in Taiwan: * Although I am right-wing at heart, having studied economics at university, I don't believe the status quo KMT's free market policies are working for Taiwan due to the lack of ceterus parabis (the externality preventing equilibrium being China). Theoretically there should be a trickle down effect - as the rich get richer, there will be more investment, and as a result more jobs for the poor in Taiwan - however, because of closer economic relations with China, the rich are in fact moving all their capital offshore to China and using their cheaper labour. As a result, the rich are getting richer, but the money is going to Taiwan's rich and China's poor, not Taiwan's rich and Taiwan's poor. So what does that mean for the poor in Taiwan? Unfortunately, the KMT and President Ma do not seem to have Taiwan's poor's interests at heart. Most of their politicians are Taiwan's rich, because all the industries are owned by the KMT, so want to move all their assets offshore to China in order to make more money. It is my belief that the DPP, which is made up of mostly farmers, university lecturers and lawyers (as opposed to the KMT, which is made up of career politicians whose parents were also politicians when KMT had autocratic rule), who own pretty much zero assets and relies heavily on donations, who will try harder to do something for the poor in Taiwan. As an economist, I hesitate to support DPP policies such as the state subsidising local industries, but what other options are there to help the poor and create jobs? According to the free market, Taiwan is a 'failed business' that should be 'left to die' and the economically efficient 'Chinese business' will continue to prosper. * Someone mentioned earlier that I was biased against James Soong's PFP. By default, I should be supporting him. Why? My dad is tight as fuck with Chang Chau-hsiung - his running mate for the last two elections - we are close family friends and his kids babysat me and my sister when we were younger. Soong is a clever politician. He isn't in this election to win the Presidency - in fact, he is gambling that English will win. Every single interview he has had leading up to this election he has attacked President Ma only. He's been on the DPP's TV stations for lengthy interviews (in Taiwan, the TV stations are all openly partisan). My dad's theory is that he is hoping that if English wins, English will give him an influential position, such as Premier. He has either thrown all his eggs in one basket, or alternatively already made a deal in secret with the DPP to only attack the KMT in interviews and speeches and not the DPP. Despite our close family ties with the PFP, I will never respect Soong. When he was a KMT member in the 20th Century, as Education Minister he banned the speaking of the native Taiwanese language and was strongly pro-unification with China (this is before China became more capitalist and free - i.e. when the Communist government would run over citizens with tanks). Today he gives his speeches in the native Taiwanes language - hypocrite. But that's not the worst. When he served under President Lee, he was the Governor of Taiwan - someone who was in charge of all public finances of every district in Taiwan. The next part is hearsay so I emphasise it is my analysis and opinion - make up your own mind by studying Taiwanese history if you like and some sort of disclaimer about how you should not click the spoiler and by clicking on it you are agreeing not to notify Soong so that he can sue me for defamation since being an average citizen of limited means I can't afford to hire a lawyer: + Show Spoiler +His goal was to become President after President Lee. So he spent his time as Governor effectively 'bribing' every single district. For example, if South Taiwan (Tainan) needed a billion dollars for a construction project, he would give the mayor two billion. And then say to that mayor - endorse me and you can keep the balance. This is how he became so popular - almost every mayor would say he was fantastic because they personally benefitted. Those who didn't received little funding and as a result their districts would suffer from poverty. President Lee saw what was going on, and despite being a KMT President, because he secretly supported the DPP and Taiwan independence, he chose Lien as his successor, as opposed to Soong. This infuriated Soong, who left the KMT to form the PFP and as a result made the 2000 election a three-way contest between Soong, Lien and Chen. Soong was on track to win, but President Lee released financial statements revealing Soong's 'unbalanced accounts' which resulted in the voters all finding out about the above paragraph which I wrote in the spoilers. Anyway, I've got to get some rest now so I don't end up sleeping in past when the ballot closes today. Blah, when writing long posts like this, I always feel like I've left something out and will need to come back to post again later. I have no respect for Lee or his Pan-Green stand. This is the guy who declared that Diaoyu Islands belongs to Japan (talk about maintaining the soverignty of Taiwan), and often visits the Japan's Matyr Shrine, those who massacred, enslaved and raped the Taiwanese people during WWII, and prefer to be called Iwasato masao in Japan. Talking about Taiwan Independence. Both Tsai & Ma stated that Taiwan is already a soverign nation. There would be no president election if it is not already a nation. If you want a name change you will surely suffer the wrath of China. Let me tell you, the DPP's stand on Independence is all words and no action. If Tsai is elected today, she will not declare indpence during her term, so why even bother. On the topic of economic reliance on China. We are living in a globalized economy now and FTAs is forming left and right. Taiwan cannot compete with other countries (such as ASEAN+1) unless it also forms FTA with other nations. Problem is China will never allow Taiwan to form FTA with other nations unless Taiwan is on amiable term with China. During Ma's term, he did exactly this, he formed ECFA with China, which is/will opening up Taiwan's door to other nations. Sad truth is, under the last president Chen's terms, Taiwan lost it's initiative to open trade partnerships with other nations when he worsen the relationships between both China and the US, and thus effectively closes Taiwan's door and lost it's economic powess that it used to have. Speaking of corruption, most agrees that Ma is most anti-corrupt president in Taiwan's history while Chen is still serving terms due to his corruption. Point is, while KMT was definiately corrupt, the DPP is not far off as well. Power changes people I guess. Lastly, let's talk about ability to run the nation between Tsai and Ma. Ma has been the mayor of the capital of Taiwan, Taipei for 2 terms before he ran for presidency while Tsai has no experience in running a township or a city, so how would one trust her to govern a nation? You may say that she's been the vice premier, but keep in mind that vice premier role is minimal and she only served briefly for about a year. So when you do vote this time, have these thoughts in the back of your head. Firstly, if not for President Lee, Taiwan would not be having democratic elections. If you want to talk about massacre and rape the KMT are just as responsible for the murdering of Taiwanese citizens and their ill-treatment as the Japanese. While China ran over protesters with tanks in 1989, President Lee invited the student protesters in to discuss how the elections would be held. It is because of him that the DPP even grew to the size it is now in order for there to be fair competition in the elections. From Wikipedia: + Show Spoiler +1990 saw the arrival of the Wild Lily student movement on behalf of full democracy for Taiwan. Thousands of Taiwanese students demonstrated for democratic reforms. The demonstrations culminated in a sit-in demonstration by over 300,000 students at Memorial Square in Taipei. Students called for direct elections of the national president and vice president and for a new election for all legislative seats. On 21 March Lee welcomed some of the students to the Presidential Building. He expressed his support of their goals and pledged his commitment to full democracy in Taiwan. The moment is regarded by supporters of democracy in Taiwan as perhaps his finest moment in office. Gatherings recalling the student movement are regularly held around Taiwan every 21 March.
In May 1991 Lee spearheaded a drive to eliminate the Temporary Provisions Effective During the Period of Communist Rebellion, laws put in place following the KMT arrival in 1949 that suspended the democratic functions of the government. In December 1991 the original members of the Legislative Yuan, elected to represent mainland China constituencies in 1948, were forced to resign and new elections were held to apportion more seats to the bensheng ren. The elections forced Hau Pei-tsun from the premiership, a position he was given in exchange for his tacit support of Lee. He was replaced by Lien Chan, then an ally of Lee.
The prospect of the first island-wide democratic election the next year, together with Lee's June 1995 visit to Cornell University, sparked the Third Taiwan Strait Crisis. The previous eight presidents and vice-presidents of Taiwan had been elected by the members of the National Assembly. For the first time Taiwan's leader would be elected by majority vote of Taiwan's population. The People's Republic of China conducted a series of missile tests in the waters surrounding Taiwan and other military maneuvers off the coast of Fujian in response to what Communist Party leaders described as moves by Lee to "split the motherland." The PRC government launched another set of tests just days before the election, sending missiles over the island to express its dissatisfaction should the Taiwanese people vote for Lee. The military actions disrupted trade and shipping lines and caused a temporary dip in the Asian stock market. Ironically, the 1996 missile launches boosted support for Lee instead. Trivia: It was President Lee who encouraged DPP members to storm Parliament so that it would become international news, raising awareness about the KMT totalitarian makeup of Parliament where many of their leading members never had to be elected which is what is responsible for the culture of Parliamentary brawls. Secondly, I hardly care about what Taiwan is called namewise - which of course is what the KMT want people to believe the 'sovereignty' issue is about. What I am concerned about is Taiwan's international presence and trading ability being bullied by China. You make the sovereignty issue into something as if it's just a name - it's not, it includes significant international implications such as the ability to trade as a sovereign nation without having other nations be under duress by China for trading with Taiwan (e.g. China threatening other nations with trade sanctions if they dare establish trading relationships with Taiwan) - take UN membership for example: + Show Spoiler +Don’t Put Taiwan’s Democracy and Freedom back into a Box Koo Kwang-ming 辜寬敏
"A long, long time ago…" are the words that many of the old stories begin with. Today, I would like to share with you a true story about Taiwan that the US and the world have deliberately ignored for a long, long time. I believe that maybe 70 percent to 80 percent of the US public knows that Taiwan is a country. At the same time, however, maybe only 1 percent of Americans know that Taiwan is not a member of the UN, and maybe only 0.001 percent know why this is so.
The truth I want to tell you about is this: our country, Taiwan, has been isolated by the UN in an act of political discrimination that has lasted for more than 36 years. It is the only country in the world to be denied UN membership. The human rights of 23 million Taiwanese have been ignored by the UN for a long, long time, and the US government has helped making it the case.
Just as Ralph Ellison said that African Americans once were the invisible man of American society, Taiwan is now the " invisible" member of the international community. What is worse is that omit to the democratic Taiwan has been living in the shadow of China’s constant threat. China has now deployed almost 1,000 missiles aimed at Taiwan and is threatening annexation of Taiwan at any time.
Although China is a totalitarian and dictatorial communist state, the US unfortunately has sided with the Chinese dictatorship to suppress Taiwan’s democracy. This is both incomprehensible and deplorable. The US government called Iraq a terrorist state and stood up against Iraq when it invaded Kuwait, but chooses to look at China's military expansion and intimidation with one eye closed. I must admonish the US government: "Washington’s appeasement of China resembles nothing but the British prime minister Neville Chamberlain’s appeasement of Hitler prior to the Second World War!"
If "Taiwan is not a state", the U.S. has the responsibility Dennis Wilder, the senior director of East Asian Affairs on the US' National Security Council, recently said that "Taiwan is not a state." This has outraged and humiliated the Taiwanese people. But we also felt a sense of relief when he added that Taiwan issue has been left undecided for a long long time. The U.S. government has finally decided to face a fact that it has turned a blind eye to for half a century. The truth is: Taiwan is a country with 23 million people, who can freely elect their own leaders. We have the capacities to exercise our sovereign powers both domestically and on the international front. The US government’s refusal to recognize Taiwan as a sovereign state cannot challenge the reality that Taiwan has been a sovereign state for decades.
Moreover, if Taiwan is not a sovereign state in the eyes of US government officials, I must ask if the US has no responsibility for this situation? The 1952 San Francisco Peace Treaty that concluded World War II did not clarify Taiwan's status, and for a long time after, the US approved Chiang Kai-shek's brutal military occupation of Taiwan which imposed 38 years of martial law that left Taiwanese in darkness and isolation.
From the 1950s to the 1980s, tens of thousands of Taiwanese sacrificed their lives and freedom in their struggle to overthrow the dictatorship and to gain democracy and liberty. That heavy price was paid not only for the cause of democracy and freedom, but also because we longed to establish a new and sovereign state as the unavoidable conclusion to centuries of colonial rule and struggle for independence. I think this is something the American people can understand and identify with.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." What the Taiwanese people have been striving for the past decades is the realization of nothing but this famous and courageous statement in the United States Declaration of Independence. With the consolidation of democracy in Taiwan, we feel proud to say that we have gradually advanced our causes. We are still working hard toward our goal.
But when the Taiwanese people want to rely on a democratic referendum and self determination to confirm Taiwan's status as a sovereign state, the US government says, "You can't do that." When we want to hold a referendum to manifest the wish of all Taiwanese to join the United Nations, the US government says, "You can't do that." The US government encourages Taiwan to develop its democracy, but also warns us that we can't hold referendums or declare independence, all because of the fear of provoking Beijing. The US government is even opposed to Taiwan having its own constitution, own flag or own national anthem that are necessary for building a nation that can withstand Chinese pressure. Is this sensible? Is this the right message the US should be sending to Communist dictators?
Why democratic Taiwan can’t join the UN? At present, 77 percent of Taiwanese want Taiwan to join the UN and become a member of this family of nations. We therefore hope that the presidential election next year will include a referendum to allow every Taiwanese to use his or her vote to manifest their wish that Taiwan be allowed to join the UN and use the collective will of the Taiwanese people to tell the world that we are not happy with the current situation. This simple and humble democratic expression, however, is forcefully opposed and suppressed by the US government, and this causes disappointment and anger among the people of Taiwan who have placed high hopes on the US and its great people.
Taiwan and North Korea are both countries with about 23 million people. Taiwan’s economic and democratic achievements are something that North Korea cannot match. However, Washington, even without recognizing North Korea as a sovereign state, did not oppose Pyongyang’s UN bid in the 1990s. In comparison, the U.S. government’s treatment of democratic Taiwan is both disappointing and disturbing. Shouldn't the human rights of 23 million Taiwanese be respected? We know that the US opposition to Taiwan’s UN membership is a result of China’s bullying for military tension in the Taiwan Strait. However, if cooperating with China to suppress democratic Taiwan is the best solution that Washington authorities can come up with after 60 years, we must ask if US intellectual leadership on this matter is already a thing of the past.
As long as Taiwan is not a member of the UN, that organization will always suffer from a flaw in its conscience. As long as the US doesn't help Taiwan become a normal country and gain UN membership, it will always carry a stamp of shame.
It’s time for the US to reevaluate its policy on the Taiwan Strait. In 2003, I published a statement in this newspaper telling the US government it was time for a serious reevaluation of its China policy because it is absurd to see a country adhere to a flawed policy for three decades. The status quo in the Taiwan Strait today has changed completely from the status quo of 30 years ago. According to the latest Taiwanese opinion polls, 70 percent of Taiwanese see themselves as Taiwanese and 75 percent think that Taiwan is an independent and sovereign state. The Shanghai communiqué of 1972 which states that, "all Chinese on either side of the Taiwan Strait maintain there is but one China and that Taiwan is a part of China" was never true.
The US government must take a square look at this political reality lest it keep making mistakes in its Taiwan policy and make serious political misjudgments in the Asia Pacific region The US was completely powerless to stop the massive Chinese military buildup across the Taiwan Strait. But the US is not powerless if it chooses to strengthen Taiwan’s democracy and nation-building that are necessary for the Taiwanese to withstand Chinese pressure. The US can also tell the Chinese that their bullying of Taiwan is counterproductive, that the resultant resentment the Taiwanese feel toward the Chinese will only make the eventual reconciliation more difficult.
Taiwan shall overcome! For the past ten years, China has tried to strangle Taiwan with its military threats and diplomatic blockade. But in spite of their efforts, Taiwan has managed to survive. I want to tell the world that Taiwan still exists! This small and beautiful country still exists in the West Pacific. The mighty Taiwanese people will fight for our beloved country till the end! As God and the American people are our witnesses:We will not be defeated; Taiwan shall overcome! The constant bullying by the Chinese to deny our identity only hardened our resolve to fight for independence and international recognition!
"You can’t put democracy and freedom back into a box," said President George W. Bush. For all these years, on our way to democratization, Taiwanese people have received enormous support and encouragement from our American friends. As democratic Taiwan requires the moral support of the international community when its people make a free decision on their future, I call on all great Americans and their representatives to tell the US government and the UN:
"Don’t put Taiwan’s democracy and freedom back into a box!" "Help Taiwan join the UN!"
(The writer was a former senior adviser to the President of Taiwan ) (The article was published in Washington Post and NY Times on September 17, 2007) Also note that Taiwan was unable to join the World Health Organization also which results in Taiwan having inferior healthcare resources compared to nations who can join - all because China isn't happy with Taiwan being involved internationally with other countries. It's not like the DPP don't want to achieve things such as free trade - but how is this possible when there is a neighbouring bullying nation that tells the rest of the world not to associate with you out of nationalist pride? It is China that cares more about the name than Taiwanese. What we want are the economic benefits (as well as the dignity) of nationhood. The problem with President Ma's policies is that it is moving Taiwanese businesses offshore and resulting in China draining Taiwan's ability to compete internationally. I agree Taiwan eventually has to open up closer economic relations with China. But at the moment we are at an unfair disadvantage where China can call all the shots. As I mentioned in my previous post, according to the free market Taiwan is a failed company that would be liquidated whilst China continues on as a thriving monopoly. Thirdly - if you think President Ma is not corrupt why is he so rich? His parents (who were government officials) were corrupt. He has no need to be corrupt. His 'corruption' is not going after the KMT's politicians who have been corrupt, and instead protecting them. One of his election platforms in 2008 was to sell off KMT assets and return the money to the public purse. He hasn't done this and the KMT politicians are happy about that. FTR I agree ex-President Chen also has no excuse for his corruption. + Show Spoiler +On this note though... Many have said the DPP are just as corrupt as the KMT. Not true. Proportionally they are nowhere near. The KMT mass murdered Taiwanese in order to gain all of Taiwan's assets and are still benefiting from them (being POEs - Party Owned Assets - not State Owned Assets. The KMT politicians are not being pursued in court because the judiciary is controlled by the KMT. The judiciary accepts 97% mainland Chinese as judges and 3% Taiwanese to become judges due to an archaic law enacted when China took over Taiwan after Japan that has not been changed. The first time ex-President Chen was tried the judge ruled that further evidence had to be collated before he was indicted according to law, he was fired the next day. My friend is taking the examination to become a judge and says everyone has to say they are supporters of the KMT otherwise they are basically disqualified due to the government officials in charge of the induction process. The KMT never go after their hundreds of politicians who are corrupt, and their corruption financially is in the hundreds of billions compared to the DPP). People who say the DPP are just as corrupt as the KMT are comparing apples to apple orchards. Lastly - do you seriously think Tsai will not have the advice and support of prominent DPP members such as Frank Hsieh, Su Tseng-chang, ex-vice-President Annette Lu and Yu Shyi-kun who all have a wealth of governing experience. If you want to talk governing experience President Ma was a relative amateur in experience compared to many KMT politicians when he first stood for President and was in my opinion not a good mayor for Taipei, hardly solving any of its urban issues during his mayoralty. Edit: For an idea of how the KMT dealt with the DPP prior to President Lee, see here - many of the prominent DPP members were political prisoners and lawyers involved with this historically tragic incident: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaohsiung_Incident So...... you did not deny what I said, right?
You are exactly right about China calls all the shots now. So your idea of reviving Taiwan's economy is to....... what? Go against the Chinese powerhouse like Chen did? How did that end up? lol.
About Ma being corrupt, at least give me some sources to prove it.
About your lastly, if Tsai use the same advisors/coucilors as Chen, how would it be any different between Tsai's presidency and Chen's? last time i heard Tsai is trying hard to seperate herself from Chen.
And you are right, many prominent DPP members were political prisoners. And guess what, most of them are no longer DPP members and many actually speak out against DPP now a days and take a pan-blue stance (regarding economy and corruption at least). So what does that say about the current state of DPP now?
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