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Taiwanese Elections Thread

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ElMeanYo
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1032 Posts
January 13 2012 07:41 GMT
#1
At the request of 'Taiwanese' I have created this thread to discuss the upcoming Taiwanese elections.

The two main parties contesting it are:

The KMT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KMT
The DPP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Progressive_Party

There is also a minor party participating although it is a given that their candidate will not win:

The PFP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_First_Party_(Republic_of_China).

The main race is between the KMT and DPP candidates (President Ma, the incumbent, and Ms English (yes, that is her name), the DPP candidate).

Obligatory Taiwanese parliamentary brawl videos:

+ Show Spoiler +







Poll: Who will you vote for?

KMT (19)
 
53%

DPP (15)
 
42%

PFP (2)
 
6%

36 total votes

Your vote: Who will you vote for?

(Vote): KMT
(Vote): DPP
(Vote): PFP

“The only man who never makes mistakes is the man who never does anything.” ― Theodore Roosevelt
chennis
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Taiwan227 Posts
January 13 2012 08:21 GMT
#2
election on the 14th in taiwan, which is soon!
ShadeR
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7535 Posts
January 13 2012 08:24 GMT
#3
Thanks for the brawl vids!
Love Taiwan Parliament.
DrTyrant
Profile Joined January 2012
United States79 Posts
January 13 2012 16:39 GMT
#4
I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States.
andrewlt
Profile Joined August 2009
United States7702 Posts
January 13 2012 16:42 GMT
#5
I saw Taiwanese elections and came here for the brawl videos. We should do that here, might send of the oldies to early retirement.
Mawi
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden4365 Posts
January 13 2012 16:47 GMT
#6
that first brawl video was epic nice music just made it good,

will be intresting to see who will win
Forever Mirin Zyzz Son of Zeus Brother of Hercules Father of the Aesthetics
DrTyrant
Profile Joined January 2012
United States79 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-13 16:52:41
January 13 2012 16:52 GMT
#7
Oh my gosh, those parliament brawls are hilarious. By the way, anyone else unable to vote in the poll?

Edit: Nevermind, I figured out how to vote.
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
January 13 2012 16:58 GMT
#8
I was reading on Reuters how mainland chinese tourists are going to these elections in person just to see what it's all about.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-taiwan-election-mainlandtre80c0of-20120113,0,3819429.story
Yargh
d_wAy
Profile Joined November 2010
United States104 Posts
January 13 2012 17:01 GMT
#9
Very torn on this election.. while I do believe China is Taiwan's future and cross-strait cooperation will bring prosperity to both nations -- I do feel at times that the KMT compromises Taiwan's sovereignty and dignity for the sake of economic improvement. On the flip-side, now that Taiwan and China's fate are bound together, the country cannot risk another DPP candidate of the divisive flavor. Though I do not find Ms. Tsai to be particularly controversial, her mere link with the party is enough to throw China into a furor. Will be an interesting election indeed...
DrTyrant
Profile Joined January 2012
United States79 Posts
January 13 2012 17:03 GMT
#10
On January 14 2012 01:58 JinDesu wrote:
I was reading on Reuters how mainland chinese tourists are going to these elections in person just to see what it's all about.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-taiwan-election-mainlandtre80c0of-20120113,0,3819429.story

Wait the PRC government actually allows people to visit the ROC? By the way, couldn't the PRC people just visit Macau or Hong Kong where they have democratic elections all the time?
Taiwanese
Profile Joined January 2012
20 Posts
January 13 2012 17:20 GMT
#11
Thanks very much OP.

On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote:
I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States.


That's because up until 1996, Taiwan did not have democratic elections. One year after the Tienanmen incident, the same protests happened in Taiwan in 1990. Thankfully, President Lee accepted the student protester's demands and made it so that after his six year term there would be an election.

In 1996, President Lee won 53% to the DPP candidate's 24%.

Random facts: The first ever DPP candidate, whose name escapes me, was persecuted by the KMT in the 70s for being politically active, distributing pamphlets at university advocating for democratic elections (to give an idea of how 'free' Taiwan was back then). He was sentenced to 18 years in jail but Amnesty International brought his case to the spotlight and he was able to exile to Europe and America. He returned in 1996 to stand and President Lee allowed him to no longer be 'blacklisted'.

President Lee later went on to side with the DPP, and in 2000 the DPP won the second election. Many in the KMT are angry at him for doing so. The DPP won a second term in 2004 after an attempted assassination on the President won sympathy, and then in 2008 the KMT won power back due to the DPP President embezzling public funds and losing public confidence.

I went to the DPP rally tonight. It's the 5th Taiwanese election. I support the DPP because they lean towards the left. Taiwan is a very capitalist country, with a tax rate of 6%. As a result, you cannot go anywhere without seeing dozens of unemployed lying on the streets, too depressed to get up. Social welfare is limited to one single month and if you don't have family supporting you, you are fucked. Everything is user-pays - with the exception of our good public health system.
DrTyrant
Profile Joined January 2012
United States79 Posts
January 13 2012 17:38 GMT
#12
On January 14 2012 02:20 Taiwanese wrote:
Thanks very much OP.

Show nested quote +
On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote:
I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States.


That's because up until 1996, Taiwan did not have democratic elections. One year after the Tienanmen incident, the same protests happened in Taiwan in 1990. Thankfully, President Lee accepted the student protester's demands and made it so that after his six year term there would be an election.

In 1996, President Lee won 53% to the DPP candidate's 24%.

Random facts: The first ever DPP candidate, whose name escapes me, was persecuted by the KMT in the 70s for being politically active, distributing pamphlets at university advocating for democratic elections (to give an idea of how 'free' Taiwan was back then). He was sentenced to 18 years in jail but Amnesty International brought his case to the spotlight and he was able to exile to Europe and America. He returned in 1996 to stand and President Lee allowed him to no longer be 'blacklisted'.

President Lee later went on to side with the DPP, and in 2000 the DPP won the second election. Many in the KMT are angry at him for doing so. The DPP won a second term in 2004 after an attempted assassination on the President won sympathy, and then in 2008 the KMT won power back due to the DPP President embezzling public funds and losing public confidence.

I went to the DPP rally tonight. It's the 5th Taiwanese election. I support the DPP because they lean towards the left. Taiwan is a very capitalist country, with a tax rate of 6%. As a result, you cannot go anywhere without seeing dozens of unemployed lying on the streets, too depressed to get up. Social welfare is limited to one single month and if you don't have family supporting you, you are fucked. Everything is user-pays - with the exception of our good public health system.

Thanks for the background history, Taiwanese/ROC politics aren't exactly my strong suite. I realize that the President of the Republic of China has only been directly elected since 1996, but you did have democratic legislative elections for your parliament though, yes?
Taiwanese
Profile Joined January 2012
20 Posts
January 13 2012 17:53 GMT
#13
On January 14 2012 02:38 DrTyrant wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2012 02:20 Taiwanese wrote:
Thanks very much OP.

On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote:
I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States.


That's because up until 1996, Taiwan did not have democratic elections. One year after the Tienanmen incident, the same protests happened in Taiwan in 1990. Thankfully, President Lee accepted the student protester's demands and made it so that after his six year term there would be an election.

In 1996, President Lee won 53% to the DPP candidate's 24%.

Random facts: The first ever DPP candidate, whose name escapes me, was persecuted by the KMT in the 70s for being politically active, distributing pamphlets at university advocating for democratic elections (to give an idea of how 'free' Taiwan was back then). He was sentenced to 18 years in jail but Amnesty International brought his case to the spotlight and he was able to exile to Europe and America. He returned in 1996 to stand and President Lee allowed him to no longer be 'blacklisted'.

President Lee later went on to side with the DPP, and in 2000 the DPP won the second election. Many in the KMT are angry at him for doing so. The DPP won a second term in 2004 after an attempted assassination on the President won sympathy, and then in 2008 the KMT won power back due to the DPP President embezzling public funds and losing public confidence.

I went to the DPP rally tonight. It's the 5th Taiwanese election. I support the DPP because they lean towards the left. Taiwan is a very capitalist country, with a tax rate of 6%. As a result, you cannot go anywhere without seeing dozens of unemployed lying on the streets, too depressed to get up. Social welfare is limited to one single month and if you don't have family supporting you, you are fucked. Everything is user-pays - with the exception of our good public health system.

Thanks for the background history, Taiwanese/ROC politics aren't exactly my strong suite. I realize that the President of the Republic of China has only been directly elected since 1996, but you did have democratic legislative elections for your parliament though, yes?


Technically yes, but they were all KMT legislators and you could pretty much only vote for KMT legislators because if anyone dared to stand as a non-KMT member they would be tried for sedition and jailed as political prisoners. To get a good idea of Taiwan's historical background, it's worth reading this page and then going from the links there if you wish to read further:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident
DrTyrant
Profile Joined January 2012
United States79 Posts
January 13 2012 18:02 GMT
#14
On January 14 2012 02:53 Taiwanese wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2012 02:38 DrTyrant wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:20 Taiwanese wrote:
Thanks very much OP.

On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote:
I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States.


That's because up until 1996, Taiwan did not have democratic elections. One year after the Tienanmen incident, the same protests happened in Taiwan in 1990. Thankfully, President Lee accepted the student protester's demands and made it so that after his six year term there would be an election.

In 1996, President Lee won 53% to the DPP candidate's 24%.

Random facts: The first ever DPP candidate, whose name escapes me, was persecuted by the KMT in the 70s for being politically active, distributing pamphlets at university advocating for democratic elections (to give an idea of how 'free' Taiwan was back then). He was sentenced to 18 years in jail but Amnesty International brought his case to the spotlight and he was able to exile to Europe and America. He returned in 1996 to stand and President Lee allowed him to no longer be 'blacklisted'.

President Lee later went on to side with the DPP, and in 2000 the DPP won the second election. Many in the KMT are angry at him for doing so. The DPP won a second term in 2004 after an attempted assassination on the President won sympathy, and then in 2008 the KMT won power back due to the DPP President embezzling public funds and losing public confidence.

I went to the DPP rally tonight. It's the 5th Taiwanese election. I support the DPP because they lean towards the left. Taiwan is a very capitalist country, with a tax rate of 6%. As a result, you cannot go anywhere without seeing dozens of unemployed lying on the streets, too depressed to get up. Social welfare is limited to one single month and if you don't have family supporting you, you are fucked. Everything is user-pays - with the exception of our good public health system.

Thanks for the background history, Taiwanese/ROC politics aren't exactly my strong suite. I realize that the President of the Republic of China has only been directly elected since 1996, but you did have democratic legislative elections for your parliament though, yes?


Technically yes, but they were all KMT legislators and you could pretty much only vote for KMT legislators because if anyone dared to stand as a non-KMT member they would be tried for sedition and jailed as political prisoners. To get a good idea of Taiwan's historical background, it's worth reading this page and then going from the links there if you wish to read further:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident

Wow that's interesting and pretty horrible, especially considering the "White Terror" that followed it for nearly 50 years. Something similar happened to Greece during the Cold War. At least Taiwan is free now, so do you support the current existence of the ROC? An "independent" Taiwan from the ROC and PRC? Or joining the PRC? Or something else?
Taiwanese
Profile Joined January 2012
20 Posts
January 13 2012 18:10 GMT
#15
On January 14 2012 03:02 DrTyrant wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2012 02:53 Taiwanese wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:38 DrTyrant wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:20 Taiwanese wrote:
Thanks very much OP.

On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote:
I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States.


That's because up until 1996, Taiwan did not have democratic elections. One year after the Tienanmen incident, the same protests happened in Taiwan in 1990. Thankfully, President Lee accepted the student protester's demands and made it so that after his six year term there would be an election.

In 1996, President Lee won 53% to the DPP candidate's 24%.

Random facts: The first ever DPP candidate, whose name escapes me, was persecuted by the KMT in the 70s for being politically active, distributing pamphlets at university advocating for democratic elections (to give an idea of how 'free' Taiwan was back then). He was sentenced to 18 years in jail but Amnesty International brought his case to the spotlight and he was able to exile to Europe and America. He returned in 1996 to stand and President Lee allowed him to no longer be 'blacklisted'.

President Lee later went on to side with the DPP, and in 2000 the DPP won the second election. Many in the KMT are angry at him for doing so. The DPP won a second term in 2004 after an attempted assassination on the President won sympathy, and then in 2008 the KMT won power back due to the DPP President embezzling public funds and losing public confidence.

I went to the DPP rally tonight. It's the 5th Taiwanese election. I support the DPP because they lean towards the left. Taiwan is a very capitalist country, with a tax rate of 6%. As a result, you cannot go anywhere without seeing dozens of unemployed lying on the streets, too depressed to get up. Social welfare is limited to one single month and if you don't have family supporting you, you are fucked. Everything is user-pays - with the exception of our good public health system.

Thanks for the background history, Taiwanese/ROC politics aren't exactly my strong suite. I realize that the President of the Republic of China has only been directly elected since 1996, but you did have democratic legislative elections for your parliament though, yes?


Technically yes, but they were all KMT legislators and you could pretty much only vote for KMT legislators because if anyone dared to stand as a non-KMT member they would be tried for sedition and jailed as political prisoners. To get a good idea of Taiwan's historical background, it's worth reading this page and then going from the links there if you wish to read further:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident

Wow that's interesting and pretty horrible, especially considering the "White Terror" that followed it for nearly 50 years. Something similar happened to Greece during the Cold War. At least Taiwan is free now, so do you support the current existence of the ROC? An "independent" Taiwan from the ROC and PRC? Or joining the PRC? Or something else?


Personally I do support the KMT's goal of closer economic relations with China, because I think in the future China will be an economic powerhouse and it's best to start establishing trade relations with them now rather than be left behind.

However, the current KMT politicians are all very corrupt - the KMT is the richest political party in the world, owning most of Taiwan's assets. President Ma's platform in 2008 included selling off these assets and returning the funds to the public (because these assets were historically owned by the public but then acquired through duress by the KMT - turning them from public assets into party assets). However, he has not done this - most likely because of pressure within the KMT.

I do support closer economic relations with China, but I feel like the KMT need much more pressure first, from losing another election, before they will make any serious internal national changes, such as returning assets to the public and helping the poor in Taiwan. I would first like to see some social welfare changes, that to me is a more pressing concern than closer economic relations.

I hope that makes sense. Basically I am not against the KMT's goals of economic prosperity. However, I feel like they still act like they deserve to be in government as of right and there is still a lot of corruption (e.g. vote buying - they bribe the city mayors to endorse them), therefore I think one more term in opposition would do them as well as the Taiwanese democratic system as a whole a lot more good. At the moment the KMT's economic goals are for the purpose of making their politicians richer (because their party owns the export industry). I hope that in the future their goals will be for the purpose of making the country's poorer people richer.
DrTyrant
Profile Joined January 2012
United States79 Posts
January 13 2012 18:32 GMT
#16
On January 13 2012 16:41 ElMeanYo wrote:
There is also a minor party participating although it is a given that their candidate will not win:

Wow seriously? I'm sorry, but that was really uncalled for and clearly biased. Also they're not really a minor party, they have 8 seats in the Legislative Yuan.
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-13 18:48:05
January 13 2012 18:45 GMT
#17
How Taiwanese elections work:

Incoming party tries former leaders for corruption
Incoming party proclaims victory
Party in power gets corrupt
New party approaches, accusing previous party of corruption
New party wins for anti-corruption platform
return to start

you can also just say

public taiwanelections(troll){
while peopleintaiwannumber =/= troll;
oldparty = corrupt;
newparty = anticorrupt;
newparty = oldparty;
taiwanelections(-1);
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
Taiwanese
Profile Joined January 2012
20 Posts
January 13 2012 18:46 GMT
#18
On January 14 2012 03:32 DrTyrant wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2012 16:41 ElMeanYo wrote:
There is also a minor party participating although it is a given that their candidate will not win:

Wow seriously? I'm sorry, but that was really uncalled for and clearly biased. Also they're not really a minor party, they have 8 seats in the Legislative Yuan.


How is it uncalled for and biased? Soong knows he doesn't have a chance of winning himself. He is standing because he wants his PFP to win more seats in the house, so he is standing to raise awareness for his own party. But anyone who thinks he is going to have a chance of winning the Presidential race is deluded. Eight seats IS a minority - compared to 72 and 33 of the KMT and DPP respectively. If the TSU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Solidarity_Union) still existed I would also call them a minor party.

To back up my non-biased statement, the last opinion polls prior to the election averaged:

English 40%
Ma 38%
Soong 7%

How much do you want to bet that he won't have a chance of winning today?
DrTyrant
Profile Joined January 2012
United States79 Posts
January 13 2012 18:48 GMT
#19
There's no such thing as "unelectable," that's what the Obamabots said about Ron Paul and yet now Ron Paul is winning and dominating.
Taiwanese
Profile Joined January 2012
20 Posts
January 13 2012 18:51 GMT
#20
On January 14 2012 03:48 DrTyrant wrote:
There's no such thing as "unelectable," that's what the Obamabots said about Ron Paul and yet now Ron Paul is winning and dominating.


Soong was electable in 2000. To say he is electable today is like saying John McCain is electable in 2012.
d_wAy
Profile Joined November 2010
United States104 Posts
January 13 2012 18:53 GMT
#21
On January 14 2012 03:10 Taiwanese wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2012 03:02 DrTyrant wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:53 Taiwanese wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:38 DrTyrant wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:20 Taiwanese wrote:
Thanks very much OP.

On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote:
I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States.


That's because up until 1996, Taiwan did not have democratic elections. One year after the Tienanmen incident, the same protests happened in Taiwan in 1990. Thankfully, President Lee accepted the student protester's demands and made it so that after his six year term there would be an election.

In 1996, President Lee won 53% to the DPP candidate's 24%.

Random facts: The first ever DPP candidate, whose name escapes me, was persecuted by the KMT in the 70s for being politically active, distributing pamphlets at university advocating for democratic elections (to give an idea of how 'free' Taiwan was back then). He was sentenced to 18 years in jail but Amnesty International brought his case to the spotlight and he was able to exile to Europe and America. He returned in 1996 to stand and President Lee allowed him to no longer be 'blacklisted'.

President Lee later went on to side with the DPP, and in 2000 the DPP won the second election. Many in the KMT are angry at him for doing so. The DPP won a second term in 2004 after an attempted assassination on the President won sympathy, and then in 2008 the KMT won power back due to the DPP President embezzling public funds and losing public confidence.

I went to the DPP rally tonight. It's the 5th Taiwanese election. I support the DPP because they lean towards the left. Taiwan is a very capitalist country, with a tax rate of 6%. As a result, you cannot go anywhere without seeing dozens of unemployed lying on the streets, too depressed to get up. Social welfare is limited to one single month and if you don't have family supporting you, you are fucked. Everything is user-pays - with the exception of our good public health system.

Thanks for the background history, Taiwanese/ROC politics aren't exactly my strong suite. I realize that the President of the Republic of China has only been directly elected since 1996, but you did have democratic legislative elections for your parliament though, yes?


Technically yes, but they were all KMT legislators and you could pretty much only vote for KMT legislators because if anyone dared to stand as a non-KMT member they would be tried for sedition and jailed as political prisoners. To get a good idea of Taiwan's historical background, it's worth reading this page and then going from the links there if you wish to read further:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident

Wow that's interesting and pretty horrible, especially considering the "White Terror" that followed it for nearly 50 years. Something similar happened to Greece during the Cold War. At least Taiwan is free now, so do you support the current existence of the ROC? An "independent" Taiwan from the ROC and PRC? Or joining the PRC? Or something else?


Personally I do support the KMT's goal of closer economic relations with China, because I think in the future China will be an economic powerhouse and it's best to start establishing trade relations with them now rather than be left behind.

However, the current KMT politicians are all very corrupt - the KMT is the richest political party in the world, owning most of Taiwan's assets. President Ma's platform in 2008 included selling off these assets and returning the funds to the public (because these assets were historically owned by the public but then acquired through duress by the KMT - turning them from public assets into party assets). However, he has not done this - most likely because of pressure within the KMT.

I do support closer economic relations with China, but I feel like the KMT need much more pressure first, from losing another election, before they will make any serious internal national changes, such as returning assets to the public and helping the poor in Taiwan. I would first like to see some social welfare changes, that to me is a more pressing concern than closer economic relations.

I hope that makes sense. Basically I am not against the KMT's goals of economic prosperity. However, I feel like they still act like they deserve to be in government as of right and there is still a lot of corruption (e.g. vote buying - they bribe the city mayors to endorse them), therefore I think one more term in opposition would do them as well as the Taiwanese democratic system as a whole a lot more good. At the moment the KMT's economic goals are for the purpose of making their politicians richer (because their party owns the export industry). I hope that in the future their goals will be for the purpose of making the country's poorer people richer.


I hadn't even thought of the issue of corruption and "黑金" but I think by now we are aware that both parties are guilty of 貪污 and as you mentioned -- much of the KMT's corruption is in the interest of global trade and the export industry.

Part of the reason I am so torn during Taiwanese elections is that while I generally support the party that has the best economic vision going forward (that is, the most free market and innovation-inducing economic policy) -- there is always the underlying sovereignty issue that is hard to push to the sidelines in light of other policy decisions. Though I must say that, much like other Taiwanese, I am quite comfortable with the status quo and would gladly accept the status quo going forward in return for a more prosperous future for the Taiwanese people.

After all, the central issue now is tackling affordability in the urban regions of the island (I cannot believe how absurdly expensive property in Taipei is now!! it's clear that wage growth has not kept pace with inflation, with regards to the average Taiwanese consumer basket), chronically low birth rate, and staying competitive. By the last item, I think while the Taiwanese gov't has done a decent job at moving the island's economy toward the future, increased support and subsidies to budding industries, along with rolling out increased world class infrastructure (both in consumer life and at technology parks) will cement Taiwan's competitiveness and innovation pace.
Taiwanese
Profile Joined January 2012
20 Posts
January 13 2012 20:18 GMT
#22
On January 14 2012 03:53 d_wAy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2012 03:10 Taiwanese wrote:
On January 14 2012 03:02 DrTyrant wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:53 Taiwanese wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:38 DrTyrant wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:20 Taiwanese wrote:
Thanks very much OP.

On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote:
I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States.


That's because up until 1996, Taiwan did not have democratic elections. One year after the Tienanmen incident, the same protests happened in Taiwan in 1990. Thankfully, President Lee accepted the student protester's demands and made it so that after his six year term there would be an election.

In 1996, President Lee won 53% to the DPP candidate's 24%.

Random facts: The first ever DPP candidate, whose name escapes me, was persecuted by the KMT in the 70s for being politically active, distributing pamphlets at university advocating for democratic elections (to give an idea of how 'free' Taiwan was back then). He was sentenced to 18 years in jail but Amnesty International brought his case to the spotlight and he was able to exile to Europe and America. He returned in 1996 to stand and President Lee allowed him to no longer be 'blacklisted'.

President Lee later went on to side with the DPP, and in 2000 the DPP won the second election. Many in the KMT are angry at him for doing so. The DPP won a second term in 2004 after an attempted assassination on the President won sympathy, and then in 2008 the KMT won power back due to the DPP President embezzling public funds and losing public confidence.

I went to the DPP rally tonight. It's the 5th Taiwanese election. I support the DPP because they lean towards the left. Taiwan is a very capitalist country, with a tax rate of 6%. As a result, you cannot go anywhere without seeing dozens of unemployed lying on the streets, too depressed to get up. Social welfare is limited to one single month and if you don't have family supporting you, you are fucked. Everything is user-pays - with the exception of our good public health system.

Thanks for the background history, Taiwanese/ROC politics aren't exactly my strong suite. I realize that the President of the Republic of China has only been directly elected since 1996, but you did have democratic legislative elections for your parliament though, yes?


Technically yes, but they were all KMT legislators and you could pretty much only vote for KMT legislators because if anyone dared to stand as a non-KMT member they would be tried for sedition and jailed as political prisoners. To get a good idea of Taiwan's historical background, it's worth reading this page and then going from the links there if you wish to read further:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident

Wow that's interesting and pretty horrible, especially considering the "White Terror" that followed it for nearly 50 years. Something similar happened to Greece during the Cold War. At least Taiwan is free now, so do you support the current existence of the ROC? An "independent" Taiwan from the ROC and PRC? Or joining the PRC? Or something else?


Personally I do support the KMT's goal of closer economic relations with China, because I think in the future China will be an economic powerhouse and it's best to start establishing trade relations with them now rather than be left behind.

However, the current KMT politicians are all very corrupt - the KMT is the richest political party in the world, owning most of Taiwan's assets. President Ma's platform in 2008 included selling off these assets and returning the funds to the public (because these assets were historically owned by the public but then acquired through duress by the KMT - turning them from public assets into party assets). However, he has not done this - most likely because of pressure within the KMT.

I do support closer economic relations with China, but I feel like the KMT need much more pressure first, from losing another election, before they will make any serious internal national changes, such as returning assets to the public and helping the poor in Taiwan. I would first like to see some social welfare changes, that to me is a more pressing concern than closer economic relations.

I hope that makes sense. Basically I am not against the KMT's goals of economic prosperity. However, I feel like they still act like they deserve to be in government as of right and there is still a lot of corruption (e.g. vote buying - they bribe the city mayors to endorse them), therefore I think one more term in opposition would do them as well as the Taiwanese democratic system as a whole a lot more good. At the moment the KMT's economic goals are for the purpose of making their politicians richer (because their party owns the export industry). I hope that in the future their goals will be for the purpose of making the country's poorer people richer.


I hadn't even thought of the issue of corruption and "黑金" but I think by now we are aware that both parties are guilty of 貪污 and as you mentioned -- much of the KMT's corruption is in the interest of global trade and the export industry.

Part of the reason I am so torn during Taiwanese elections is that while I generally support the party that has the best economic vision going forward (that is, the most free market and innovation-inducing economic policy) -- there is always the underlying sovereignty issue that is hard to push to the sidelines in light of other policy decisions. Though I must say that, much like other Taiwanese, I am quite comfortable with the status quo and would gladly accept the status quo going forward in return for a more prosperous future for the Taiwanese people.

After all, the central issue now is tackling affordability in the urban regions of the island (I cannot believe how absurdly expensive property in Taipei is now!! it's clear that wage growth has not kept pace with inflation, with regards to the average Taiwanese consumer basket), chronically low birth rate, and staying competitive. By the last item, I think while the Taiwanese gov't has done a decent job at moving the island's economy toward the future, increased support and subsidies to budding industries, along with rolling out increased world class infrastructure (both in consumer life and at technology parks) will cement Taiwan's competitiveness and innovation pace.


Taiwan is stuck between a rock and a rock hard erection. This will be my last post in this thread for now as it is 4am here in Taiwan:

* Although I am right-wing at heart, having studied economics at university, I don't believe the status quo KMT's free market policies are working for Taiwan due to the lack of ceterus parabis (the externality preventing equilibrium being China).

Theoretically there should be a trickle down effect - as the rich get richer, there will be more investment, and as a result more jobs for the poor in Taiwan - however, because of closer economic relations with China, the rich are in fact moving all their capital offshore to China and using their cheaper labour. As a result, the rich are getting richer, but the money is going to Taiwan's rich and China's poor, not Taiwan's rich and Taiwan's poor.

So what does that mean for the poor in Taiwan?

Unfortunately, the KMT and President Ma do not seem to have Taiwan's poor's interests at heart. Most of their politicians are Taiwan's rich, because all the industries are owned by the KMT, so want to move all their assets offshore to China in order to make more money.

It is my belief that the DPP, which is made up of mostly farmers, university lecturers and lawyers (as opposed to the KMT, which is made up of career politicians whose parents were also politicians when KMT had autocratic rule), who own pretty much zero assets and relies heavily on donations, who will try harder to do something for the poor in Taiwan.

As an economist, I hesitate to support DPP policies such as the state subsidising local industries, but what other options are there to help the poor and create jobs? According to the free market, Taiwan is a 'failed business' that should be 'left to die' and the economically efficient 'Chinese business' will continue to prosper.

* Someone mentioned earlier that I was biased against James Soong's PFP. By default, I should be supporting him. Why? My dad is tight as fuck with Chang Chau-hsiung - his running mate for the last two elections - we are close family friends and his kids babysat me and my sister when we were younger.

Soong is a clever politician. He isn't in this election to win the Presidency - in fact, he is gambling that English will win. Every single interview he has had leading up to this election he has attacked President Ma only. He's been on the DPP's TV stations for lengthy interviews (in Taiwan, the TV stations are all openly partisan). My dad's theory is that he is hoping that if English wins, English will give him an influential position, such as Premier. He has either thrown all his eggs in one basket, or alternatively already made a deal in secret with the DPP to only attack the KMT in interviews and speeches and not the DPP.

Despite our close family ties with the PFP, I will never respect Soong. When he was a KMT member in the 20th Century, as Education Minister he banned the speaking of the native Taiwanese language and was strongly pro-unification with China (this is before China became more capitalist and free - i.e. when the Communist government would run over citizens with tanks). Today he gives his speeches in the native Taiwanes language - hypocrite. But that's not the worst. When he served under President Lee, he was the Governor of Taiwan - someone who was in charge of all public finances of every district in Taiwan.

The next part is hearsay so I emphasise it is my analysis and opinion - make up your own mind by studying Taiwanese history if you like and some sort of disclaimer about how you should not click the spoiler and by clicking on it you are agreeing not to notify Soong so that he can sue me for defamation since being an average citizen of limited means I can't afford to hire a lawyer:

+ Show Spoiler +
His goal was to become President after President Lee. So he spent his time as Governor effectively 'bribing' every single district. For example, if South Taiwan (Tainan) needed a billion dollars for a construction project, he would give the mayor two billion. And then say to that mayor - endorse me and you can keep the balance. This is how he became so popular - almost every mayor would say he was fantastic because they personally benefitted. Those who didn't received little funding and as a result their districts would suffer from poverty.


President Lee saw what was going on, and despite being a KMT President, because he secretly supported the DPP and Taiwan independence, he chose Lien as his successor, as opposed to Soong. This infuriated Soong, who left the KMT to form the PFP and as a result made the 2000 election a three-way contest between Soong, Lien and Chen. Soong was on track to win, but President Lee released financial statements revealing Soong's 'unbalanced accounts' which resulted in the voters all finding out about the above paragraph which I wrote in the spoilers.

Anyway, I've got to get some rest now so I don't end up sleeping in past when the ballot closes today. Blah, when writing long posts like this, I always feel like I've left something out and will need to come back to post again later.
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
January 13 2012 20:22 GMT
#23
On January 14 2012 05:18 Taiwanese wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2012 03:53 d_wAy wrote:
On January 14 2012 03:10 Taiwanese wrote:
On January 14 2012 03:02 DrTyrant wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:53 Taiwanese wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:38 DrTyrant wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:20 Taiwanese wrote:
Thanks very much OP.

On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote:
I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States.


That's because up until 1996, Taiwan did not have democratic elections. One year after the Tienanmen incident, the same protests happened in Taiwan in 1990. Thankfully, President Lee accepted the student protester's demands and made it so that after his six year term there would be an election.

In 1996, President Lee won 53% to the DPP candidate's 24%.

Random facts: The first ever DPP candidate, whose name escapes me, was persecuted by the KMT in the 70s for being politically active, distributing pamphlets at university advocating for democratic elections (to give an idea of how 'free' Taiwan was back then). He was sentenced to 18 years in jail but Amnesty International brought his case to the spotlight and he was able to exile to Europe and America. He returned in 1996 to stand and President Lee allowed him to no longer be 'blacklisted'.

President Lee later went on to side with the DPP, and in 2000 the DPP won the second election. Many in the KMT are angry at him for doing so. The DPP won a second term in 2004 after an attempted assassination on the President won sympathy, and then in 2008 the KMT won power back due to the DPP President embezzling public funds and losing public confidence.

I went to the DPP rally tonight. It's the 5th Taiwanese election. I support the DPP because they lean towards the left. Taiwan is a very capitalist country, with a tax rate of 6%. As a result, you cannot go anywhere without seeing dozens of unemployed lying on the streets, too depressed to get up. Social welfare is limited to one single month and if you don't have family supporting you, you are fucked. Everything is user-pays - with the exception of our good public health system.

Thanks for the background history, Taiwanese/ROC politics aren't exactly my strong suite. I realize that the President of the Republic of China has only been directly elected since 1996, but you did have democratic legislative elections for your parliament though, yes?


Technically yes, but they were all KMT legislators and you could pretty much only vote for KMT legislators because if anyone dared to stand as a non-KMT member they would be tried for sedition and jailed as political prisoners. To get a good idea of Taiwan's historical background, it's worth reading this page and then going from the links there if you wish to read further:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident

Wow that's interesting and pretty horrible, especially considering the "White Terror" that followed it for nearly 50 years. Something similar happened to Greece during the Cold War. At least Taiwan is free now, so do you support the current existence of the ROC? An "independent" Taiwan from the ROC and PRC? Or joining the PRC? Or something else?


Personally I do support the KMT's goal of closer economic relations with China, because I think in the future China will be an economic powerhouse and it's best to start establishing trade relations with them now rather than be left behind.

However, the current KMT politicians are all very corrupt - the KMT is the richest political party in the world, owning most of Taiwan's assets. President Ma's platform in 2008 included selling off these assets and returning the funds to the public (because these assets were historically owned by the public but then acquired through duress by the KMT - turning them from public assets into party assets). However, he has not done this - most likely because of pressure within the KMT.

I do support closer economic relations with China, but I feel like the KMT need much more pressure first, from losing another election, before they will make any serious internal national changes, such as returning assets to the public and helping the poor in Taiwan. I would first like to see some social welfare changes, that to me is a more pressing concern than closer economic relations.

I hope that makes sense. Basically I am not against the KMT's goals of economic prosperity. However, I feel like they still act like they deserve to be in government as of right and there is still a lot of corruption (e.g. vote buying - they bribe the city mayors to endorse them), therefore I think one more term in opposition would do them as well as the Taiwanese democratic system as a whole a lot more good. At the moment the KMT's economic goals are for the purpose of making their politicians richer (because their party owns the export industry). I hope that in the future their goals will be for the purpose of making the country's poorer people richer.


I hadn't even thought of the issue of corruption and "黑金" but I think by now we are aware that both parties are guilty of 貪污 and as you mentioned -- much of the KMT's corruption is in the interest of global trade and the export industry.

Part of the reason I am so torn during Taiwanese elections is that while I generally support the party that has the best economic vision going forward (that is, the most free market and innovation-inducing economic policy) -- there is always the underlying sovereignty issue that is hard to push to the sidelines in light of other policy decisions. Though I must say that, much like other Taiwanese, I am quite comfortable with the status quo and would gladly accept the status quo going forward in return for a more prosperous future for the Taiwanese people.

After all, the central issue now is tackling affordability in the urban regions of the island (I cannot believe how absurdly expensive property in Taipei is now!! it's clear that wage growth has not kept pace with inflation, with regards to the average Taiwanese consumer basket), chronically low birth rate, and staying competitive. By the last item, I think while the Taiwanese gov't has done a decent job at moving the island's economy toward the future, increased support and subsidies to budding industries, along with rolling out increased world class infrastructure (both in consumer life and at technology parks) will cement Taiwan's competitiveness and innovation pace.


Taiwan is stuck between a rock and a rock hard erection. This will be my last post in this thread for now as it is 4am here in Taiwan:


I hope, hope, HOPE, you meant election.
Yargh
Taiwanese
Profile Joined January 2012
20 Posts
January 13 2012 20:30 GMT
#24
On January 14 2012 05:22 JinDesu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2012 05:18 Taiwanese wrote:
On January 14 2012 03:53 d_wAy wrote:
On January 14 2012 03:10 Taiwanese wrote:
On January 14 2012 03:02 DrTyrant wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:53 Taiwanese wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:38 DrTyrant wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:20 Taiwanese wrote:
Thanks very much OP.

On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote:
I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States.


That's because up until 1996, Taiwan did not have democratic elections. One year after the Tienanmen incident, the same protests happened in Taiwan in 1990. Thankfully, President Lee accepted the student protester's demands and made it so that after his six year term there would be an election.

In 1996, President Lee won 53% to the DPP candidate's 24%.

Random facts: The first ever DPP candidate, whose name escapes me, was persecuted by the KMT in the 70s for being politically active, distributing pamphlets at university advocating for democratic elections (to give an idea of how 'free' Taiwan was back then). He was sentenced to 18 years in jail but Amnesty International brought his case to the spotlight and he was able to exile to Europe and America. He returned in 1996 to stand and President Lee allowed him to no longer be 'blacklisted'.

President Lee later went on to side with the DPP, and in 2000 the DPP won the second election. Many in the KMT are angry at him for doing so. The DPP won a second term in 2004 after an attempted assassination on the President won sympathy, and then in 2008 the KMT won power back due to the DPP President embezzling public funds and losing public confidence.

I went to the DPP rally tonight. It's the 5th Taiwanese election. I support the DPP because they lean towards the left. Taiwan is a very capitalist country, with a tax rate of 6%. As a result, you cannot go anywhere without seeing dozens of unemployed lying on the streets, too depressed to get up. Social welfare is limited to one single month and if you don't have family supporting you, you are fucked. Everything is user-pays - with the exception of our good public health system.

Thanks for the background history, Taiwanese/ROC politics aren't exactly my strong suite. I realize that the President of the Republic of China has only been directly elected since 1996, but you did have democratic legislative elections for your parliament though, yes?


Technically yes, but they were all KMT legislators and you could pretty much only vote for KMT legislators because if anyone dared to stand as a non-KMT member they would be tried for sedition and jailed as political prisoners. To get a good idea of Taiwan's historical background, it's worth reading this page and then going from the links there if you wish to read further:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident

Wow that's interesting and pretty horrible, especially considering the "White Terror" that followed it for nearly 50 years. Something similar happened to Greece during the Cold War. At least Taiwan is free now, so do you support the current existence of the ROC? An "independent" Taiwan from the ROC and PRC? Or joining the PRC? Or something else?


Personally I do support the KMT's goal of closer economic relations with China, because I think in the future China will be an economic powerhouse and it's best to start establishing trade relations with them now rather than be left behind.

However, the current KMT politicians are all very corrupt - the KMT is the richest political party in the world, owning most of Taiwan's assets. President Ma's platform in 2008 included selling off these assets and returning the funds to the public (because these assets were historically owned by the public but then acquired through duress by the KMT - turning them from public assets into party assets). However, he has not done this - most likely because of pressure within the KMT.

I do support closer economic relations with China, but I feel like the KMT need much more pressure first, from losing another election, before they will make any serious internal national changes, such as returning assets to the public and helping the poor in Taiwan. I would first like to see some social welfare changes, that to me is a more pressing concern than closer economic relations.

I hope that makes sense. Basically I am not against the KMT's goals of economic prosperity. However, I feel like they still act like they deserve to be in government as of right and there is still a lot of corruption (e.g. vote buying - they bribe the city mayors to endorse them), therefore I think one more term in opposition would do them as well as the Taiwanese democratic system as a whole a lot more good. At the moment the KMT's economic goals are for the purpose of making their politicians richer (because their party owns the export industry). I hope that in the future their goals will be for the purpose of making the country's poorer people richer.


I hadn't even thought of the issue of corruption and "黑金" but I think by now we are aware that both parties are guilty of 貪污 and as you mentioned -- much of the KMT's corruption is in the interest of global trade and the export industry.

Part of the reason I am so torn during Taiwanese elections is that while I generally support the party that has the best economic vision going forward (that is, the most free market and innovation-inducing economic policy) -- there is always the underlying sovereignty issue that is hard to push to the sidelines in light of other policy decisions. Though I must say that, much like other Taiwanese, I am quite comfortable with the status quo and would gladly accept the status quo going forward in return for a more prosperous future for the Taiwanese people.

After all, the central issue now is tackling affordability in the urban regions of the island (I cannot believe how absurdly expensive property in Taipei is now!! it's clear that wage growth has not kept pace with inflation, with regards to the average Taiwanese consumer basket), chronically low birth rate, and staying competitive. By the last item, I think while the Taiwanese gov't has done a decent job at moving the island's economy toward the future, increased support and subsidies to budding industries, along with rolling out increased world class infrastructure (both in consumer life and at technology parks) will cement Taiwan's competitiveness and innovation pace.


Taiwan is stuck between a rock and a rock hard erection. This will be my last post in this thread for now as it is 4am here in Taiwan:


I hope, hope, HOPE, you meant election.


Hmm, now that I think of it... I'd probably choose rock over a rock hard erection.

I forgot to mention... The position of Governor of Taiwan was later abolished due to the potential for its abuse of power, as (allegedly) demonstrated in Soong's case.
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
January 13 2012 20:41 GMT
#25
Is she really called Ms English?

Are you referring to her? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsai_Ing-wen
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Ecael
Profile Joined February 2008
United States6703 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-13 20:45:41
January 13 2012 20:44 GMT
#26
tbh the spend money in contested district plan has been the case for every election so far in Taiwan, dunno why you'd get worked out about it at all, Taiwanese. Corruption is pretty much a given at this point, don't even see the point in trying to vote base on integrity.

Economic policy wise I simply can't agree with KMT's direction in the last four years so if I should fly back to vote I'd be voting DPP. Taiwan's relationship with China is pretty much cemented by this point and it is nigh impossible for the eventual outcome to be too different. Even if the DPP wins, at worst there would just be a short term fallout, so their differences in foreign policy are trivial at best far as I am concerned. For everything else all of the parties hardly differ in any important points.
On January 14 2012 05:30 Taiwanese wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2012 05:22 JinDesu wrote:
On January 14 2012 05:18 Taiwanese wrote:
On January 14 2012 03:53 d_wAy wrote:
On January 14 2012 03:10 Taiwanese wrote:
On January 14 2012 03:02 DrTyrant wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:53 Taiwanese wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:38 DrTyrant wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:20 Taiwanese wrote:
Thanks very much OP.

On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote:
I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States.


That's because up until 1996, Taiwan did not have democratic elections. One year after the Tienanmen incident, the same protests happened in Taiwan in 1990. Thankfully, President Lee accepted the student protester's demands and made it so that after his six year term there would be an election.

In 1996, President Lee won 53% to the DPP candidate's 24%.

Random facts: The first ever DPP candidate, whose name escapes me, was persecuted by the KMT in the 70s for being politically active, distributing pamphlets at university advocating for democratic elections (to give an idea of how 'free' Taiwan was back then). He was sentenced to 18 years in jail but Amnesty International brought his case to the spotlight and he was able to exile to Europe and America. He returned in 1996 to stand and President Lee allowed him to no longer be 'blacklisted'.

President Lee later went on to side with the DPP, and in 2000 the DPP won the second election. Many in the KMT are angry at him for doing so. The DPP won a second term in 2004 after an attempted assassination on the President won sympathy, and then in 2008 the KMT won power back due to the DPP President embezzling public funds and losing public confidence.

I went to the DPP rally tonight. It's the 5th Taiwanese election. I support the DPP because they lean towards the left. Taiwan is a very capitalist country, with a tax rate of 6%. As a result, you cannot go anywhere without seeing dozens of unemployed lying on the streets, too depressed to get up. Social welfare is limited to one single month and if you don't have family supporting you, you are fucked. Everything is user-pays - with the exception of our good public health system.

Thanks for the background history, Taiwanese/ROC politics aren't exactly my strong suite. I realize that the President of the Republic of China has only been directly elected since 1996, but you did have democratic legislative elections for your parliament though, yes?


Technically yes, but they were all KMT legislators and you could pretty much only vote for KMT legislators because if anyone dared to stand as a non-KMT member they would be tried for sedition and jailed as political prisoners. To get a good idea of Taiwan's historical background, it's worth reading this page and then going from the links there if you wish to read further:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident

Wow that's interesting and pretty horrible, especially considering the "White Terror" that followed it for nearly 50 years. Something similar happened to Greece during the Cold War. At least Taiwan is free now, so do you support the current existence of the ROC? An "independent" Taiwan from the ROC and PRC? Or joining the PRC? Or something else?


Personally I do support the KMT's goal of closer economic relations with China, because I think in the future China will be an economic powerhouse and it's best to start establishing trade relations with them now rather than be left behind.

However, the current KMT politicians are all very corrupt - the KMT is the richest political party in the world, owning most of Taiwan's assets. President Ma's platform in 2008 included selling off these assets and returning the funds to the public (because these assets were historically owned by the public but then acquired through duress by the KMT - turning them from public assets into party assets). However, he has not done this - most likely because of pressure within the KMT.

I do support closer economic relations with China, but I feel like the KMT need much more pressure first, from losing another election, before they will make any serious internal national changes, such as returning assets to the public and helping the poor in Taiwan. I would first like to see some social welfare changes, that to me is a more pressing concern than closer economic relations.

I hope that makes sense. Basically I am not against the KMT's goals of economic prosperity. However, I feel like they still act like they deserve to be in government as of right and there is still a lot of corruption (e.g. vote buying - they bribe the city mayors to endorse them), therefore I think one more term in opposition would do them as well as the Taiwanese democratic system as a whole a lot more good. At the moment the KMT's economic goals are for the purpose of making their politicians richer (because their party owns the export industry). I hope that in the future their goals will be for the purpose of making the country's poorer people richer.


I hadn't even thought of the issue of corruption and "黑金" but I think by now we are aware that both parties are guilty of 貪污 and as you mentioned -- much of the KMT's corruption is in the interest of global trade and the export industry.

Part of the reason I am so torn during Taiwanese elections is that while I generally support the party that has the best economic vision going forward (that is, the most free market and innovation-inducing economic policy) -- there is always the underlying sovereignty issue that is hard to push to the sidelines in light of other policy decisions. Though I must say that, much like other Taiwanese, I am quite comfortable with the status quo and would gladly accept the status quo going forward in return for a more prosperous future for the Taiwanese people.

After all, the central issue now is tackling affordability in the urban regions of the island (I cannot believe how absurdly expensive property in Taipei is now!! it's clear that wage growth has not kept pace with inflation, with regards to the average Taiwanese consumer basket), chronically low birth rate, and staying competitive. By the last item, I think while the Taiwanese gov't has done a decent job at moving the island's economy toward the future, increased support and subsidies to budding industries, along with rolling out increased world class infrastructure (both in consumer life and at technology parks) will cement Taiwan's competitiveness and innovation pace.


Taiwan is stuck between a rock and a rock hard erection. This will be my last post in this thread for now as it is 4am here in Taiwan:


I hope, hope, HOPE, you meant election.


Hmm, now that I think of it... I'd probably choose rock over a rock hard erection.

I forgot to mention... The position of Governor of Taiwan was later abolished due to the potential for its abuse of power, as (allegedly) demonstrated in Soong's case.

It was also signaling for Mainland iirc, was pretty young back then so hardly remembered all the political commentaries about it.
mrafaeldie12
Profile Joined July 2011
Brazil537 Posts
January 13 2012 20:53 GMT
#27
Well from a quick glance,KMT looks like it wants to be reunited with China and is a somewhat moderate party,DPP is a progressive-humans rights party (my choice).I think reuniting with China would be terrible for the Taiwanese people specially in regards to the different culture and poltical systems,however i'm also a huge supporter of human rights movement and civil liberties so that's why i'm voting for the DPP.



There's no such thing as "unelectable," that's what the Obamabots said about Ron Paul and yet now Ron Paul is winning and dominating.


Winning?Where?He got 2nd and 3rd in two caucases(Iowa/N.Hampshire),that's not even a primary,theres no way he will be elected with this kind of support.Reddit and the constant spamming of social media by The Daily Paul supporters.And I believe he is also unelectable due to his extremely unpopular views of a libertatarian state,wich in history,has never been sucessfull.
"..it all comes thumbling down thumbling down thumblin down"
Ecael
Profile Joined February 2008
United States6703 Posts
January 13 2012 20:58 GMT
#28
Merging with the mainland is a matter of time, the only question left is the extent of it and what the name will be given for Taiwan in the future. The Taiwanese economy is too married to the Chinese one at this point for any alternative to be viable. Honestly something like what HK is currently is probably what Taiwan will be years from now.
chenchen
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1136 Posts
January 13 2012 21:05 GMT
#29
On January 14 2012 05:41 Sufficiency wrote:
Is she really called Ms English?

Are you referring to her? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsai_Ing-wen


Her given name literally means "English language" in Chinese so . . . Ms English is a pretty appropriate nickname.
powerade = dragoon blood
chennis
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Taiwan227 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-13 21:06:50
January 13 2012 21:06 GMT
#30
Like everyone else has said, corruption is a given for both parties, so both sides are pretty much equivalent in that regard. Although I tend to lean towards KMT, I actually like a lot of the DPP ideas. However, what I dislike about the DPP is that they tend to blow everything out of proportion. If you did not speak Taiwanese, you worked for the communists. If you studied abroad, you did not love Taiwan (this totally happened in 2000's), etc. etc. While I am sure both sides have said stupid things like this before, in recent years this seemed true for DPP.

Another problem I have with them is that if you were to break down Tsai's response to every question, she almost always dodge it. Yes that's right, her response usually can be sumed up as follows: "We are going to do a better job than KMT because they suck and we have a plan, they are all failures and achieved nothing for the past 4 years." Soong, on the otherhand, is just a joke at this point, and I agree that he's running not for presidency, but for another reason/possible deal worked out.

Not to mention a lot of Taiwan's economical income now a days is from tourism, so a fallout, even if short (although I don't believe it will be that short, because we have pretty much no leverage), would be pretty bad.
jello_biafra
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United Kingdom6635 Posts
January 13 2012 21:07 GMT
#31
For some reason I read the thread title as 'Taiwanese Electronics Thread' and I was going to post "well that's pretty much all of them" but then I noticed my error.

On January 14 2012 03:48 DrTyrant wrote:
There's no such thing as "unelectable," that's what the Obamabots said about Ron Paul and yet now Ron Paul is winning and dominating.

I wouldn't say he was dominating...

I'm sorry, I know nothing about politics in Taiwan, hopefully this thread will educate me.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions | aka Probert[PaiN] @ iccup / godlikeparagon @ twitch | my BW stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/jello_biafra
FindMeInKenya
Profile Joined February 2011
United States797 Posts
January 13 2012 21:20 GMT
#32
On January 14 2012 05:18 Taiwanese wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2012 03:53 d_wAy wrote:
On January 14 2012 03:10 Taiwanese wrote:
On January 14 2012 03:02 DrTyrant wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:53 Taiwanese wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:38 DrTyrant wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:20 Taiwanese wrote:
Thanks very much OP.

On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote:
I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States.


That's because up until 1996, Taiwan did not have democratic elections. One year after the Tienanmen incident, the same protests happened in Taiwan in 1990. Thankfully, President Lee accepted the student protester's demands and made it so that after his six year term there would be an election.

In 1996, President Lee won 53% to the DPP candidate's 24%.

Random facts: The first ever DPP candidate, whose name escapes me, was persecuted by the KMT in the 70s for being politically active, distributing pamphlets at university advocating for democratic elections (to give an idea of how 'free' Taiwan was back then). He was sentenced to 18 years in jail but Amnesty International brought his case to the spotlight and he was able to exile to Europe and America. He returned in 1996 to stand and President Lee allowed him to no longer be 'blacklisted'.

President Lee later went on to side with the DPP, and in 2000 the DPP won the second election. Many in the KMT are angry at him for doing so. The DPP won a second term in 2004 after an attempted assassination on the President won sympathy, and then in 2008 the KMT won power back due to the DPP President embezzling public funds and losing public confidence.

I went to the DPP rally tonight. It's the 5th Taiwanese election. I support the DPP because they lean towards the left. Taiwan is a very capitalist country, with a tax rate of 6%. As a result, you cannot go anywhere without seeing dozens of unemployed lying on the streets, too depressed to get up. Social welfare is limited to one single month and if you don't have family supporting you, you are fucked. Everything is user-pays - with the exception of our good public health system.

Thanks for the background history, Taiwanese/ROC politics aren't exactly my strong suite. I realize that the President of the Republic of China has only been directly elected since 1996, but you did have democratic legislative elections for your parliament though, yes?


Technically yes, but they were all KMT legislators and you could pretty much only vote for KMT legislators because if anyone dared to stand as a non-KMT member they would be tried for sedition and jailed as political prisoners. To get a good idea of Taiwan's historical background, it's worth reading this page and then going from the links there if you wish to read further:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident

Wow that's interesting and pretty horrible, especially considering the "White Terror" that followed it for nearly 50 years. Something similar happened to Greece during the Cold War. At least Taiwan is free now, so do you support the current existence of the ROC? An "independent" Taiwan from the ROC and PRC? Or joining the PRC? Or something else?


Personally I do support the KMT's goal of closer economic relations with China, because I think in the future China will be an economic powerhouse and it's best to start establishing trade relations with them now rather than be left behind.

However, the current KMT politicians are all very corrupt - the KMT is the richest political party in the world, owning most of Taiwan's assets. President Ma's platform in 2008 included selling off these assets and returning the funds to the public (because these assets were historically owned by the public but then acquired through duress by the KMT - turning them from public assets into party assets). However, he has not done this - most likely because of pressure within the KMT.

I do support closer economic relations with China, but I feel like the KMT need much more pressure first, from losing another election, before they will make any serious internal national changes, such as returning assets to the public and helping the poor in Taiwan. I would first like to see some social welfare changes, that to me is a more pressing concern than closer economic relations.

I hope that makes sense. Basically I am not against the KMT's goals of economic prosperity. However, I feel like they still act like they deserve to be in government as of right and there is still a lot of corruption (e.g. vote buying - they bribe the city mayors to endorse them), therefore I think one more term in opposition would do them as well as the Taiwanese democratic system as a whole a lot more good. At the moment the KMT's economic goals are for the purpose of making their politicians richer (because their party owns the export industry). I hope that in the future their goals will be for the purpose of making the country's poorer people richer.


I hadn't even thought of the issue of corruption and "黑金" but I think by now we are aware that both parties are guilty of 貪污 and as you mentioned -- much of the KMT's corruption is in the interest of global trade and the export industry.

Part of the reason I am so torn during Taiwanese elections is that while I generally support the party that has the best economic vision going forward (that is, the most free market and innovation-inducing economic policy) -- there is always the underlying sovereignty issue that is hard to push to the sidelines in light of other policy decisions. Though I must say that, much like other Taiwanese, I am quite comfortable with the status quo and would gladly accept the status quo going forward in return for a more prosperous future for the Taiwanese people.

After all, the central issue now is tackling affordability in the urban regions of the island (I cannot believe how absurdly expensive property in Taipei is now!! it's clear that wage growth has not kept pace with inflation, with regards to the average Taiwanese consumer basket), chronically low birth rate, and staying competitive. By the last item, I think while the Taiwanese gov't has done a decent job at moving the island's economy toward the future, increased support and subsidies to budding industries, along with rolling out increased world class infrastructure (both in consumer life and at technology parks) will cement Taiwan's competitiveness and innovation pace.


Taiwan is stuck between a rock and a rock hard erection. This will be my last post in this thread for now as it is 4am here in Taiwan:

* Although I am right-wing at heart, having studied economics at university, I don't believe the status quo KMT's free market policies are working for Taiwan due to the lack of ceterus parabis (the externality preventing equilibrium being China).

Theoretically there should be a trickle down effect - as the rich get richer, there will be more investment, and as a result more jobs for the poor in Taiwan - however, because of closer economic relations with China, the rich are in fact moving all their capital offshore to China and using their cheaper labour. As a result, the rich are getting richer, but the money is going to Taiwan's rich and China's poor, not Taiwan's rich and Taiwan's poor.

So what does that mean for the poor in Taiwan?

Unfortunately, the KMT and President Ma do not seem to have Taiwan's poor's interests at heart. Most of their politicians are Taiwan's rich, because all the industries are owned by the KMT, so want to move all their assets offshore to China in order to make more money.

It is my belief that the DPP, which is made up of mostly farmers, university lecturers and lawyers (as opposed to the KMT, which is made up of career politicians whose parents were also politicians when KMT had autocratic rule), who own pretty much zero assets and relies heavily on donations, who will try harder to do something for the poor in Taiwan.

As an economist, I hesitate to support DPP policies such as the state subsidising local industries, but what other options are there to help the poor and create jobs? According to the free market, Taiwan is a 'failed business' that should be 'left to die' and the economically efficient 'Chinese business' will continue to prosper.

* Someone mentioned earlier that I was biased against James Soong's PFP. By default, I should be supporting him. Why? My dad is tight as fuck with Chang Chau-hsiung - his running mate for the last two elections - we are close family friends and his kids babysat me and my sister when we were younger.

Soong is a clever politician. He isn't in this election to win the Presidency - in fact, he is gambling that English will win. Every single interview he has had leading up to this election he has attacked President Ma only. He's been on the DPP's TV stations for lengthy interviews (in Taiwan, the TV stations are all openly partisan). My dad's theory is that he is hoping that if English wins, English will give him an influential position, such as Premier. He has either thrown all his eggs in one basket, or alternatively already made a deal in secret with the DPP to only attack the KMT in interviews and speeches and not the DPP.

Despite our close family ties with the PFP, I will never respect Soong. When he was a KMT member in the 20th Century, as Education Minister he banned the speaking of the native Taiwanese language and was strongly pro-unification with China (this is before China became more capitalist and free - i.e. when the Communist government would run over citizens with tanks). Today he gives his speeches in the native Taiwanes language - hypocrite. But that's not the worst. When he served under President Lee, he was the Governor of Taiwan - someone who was in charge of all public finances of every district in Taiwan.

The next part is hearsay so I emphasise it is my analysis and opinion - make up your own mind by studying Taiwanese history if you like and some sort of disclaimer about how you should not click the spoiler and by clicking on it you are agreeing not to notify Soong so that he can sue me for defamation since being an average citizen of limited means I can't afford to hire a lawyer:

+ Show Spoiler +
His goal was to become President after President Lee. So he spent his time as Governor effectively 'bribing' every single district. For example, if South Taiwan (Tainan) needed a billion dollars for a construction project, he would give the mayor two billion. And then say to that mayor - endorse me and you can keep the balance. This is how he became so popular - almost every mayor would say he was fantastic because they personally benefitted. Those who didn't received little funding and as a result their districts would suffer from poverty.


President Lee saw what was going on, and despite being a KMT President, because he secretly supported the DPP and Taiwan independence, he chose Lien as his successor, as opposed to Soong. This infuriated Soong, who left the KMT to form the PFP and as a result made the 2000 election a three-way contest between Soong, Lien and Chen. Soong was on track to win, but President Lee released financial statements revealing Soong's 'unbalanced accounts' which resulted in the voters all finding out about the above paragraph which I wrote in the spoilers.

Anyway, I've got to get some rest now so I don't end up sleeping in past when the ballot closes today. Blah, when writing long posts like this, I always feel like I've left something out and will need to come back to post again later.


I have no respect for Lee or his Pan-Green stand. This is the guy who declared that Diaoyu Islands belongs to Japan (talk about maintaining the soverignty of Taiwan), and often visits the Japan's Matyr Shrine, those who massacred, enslaved and raped the Taiwanese people during WWII, and prefer to be called Iwasato masao in Japan.

Talking about Taiwan Independence. Both Tsai & Ma stated that Taiwan is already a soverign nation. There would be no president election if it is not already a nation. If you want a name change you will surely suffer the wrath of China. Let me tell you, the DPP's stand on Independence is all words and no action. If Tsai is elected today, she will not declare indpence during her term, so why even bother.

On the topic of economic reliance on China. We are living in a globalized economy now and FTAs is forming left and right. Taiwan cannot compete with other countries (such as ASEAN+1) unless it also forms FTA with other nations. Problem is China will never allow Taiwan to form FTA with other nations unless Taiwan is on amiable term with China. During Ma's term, he did exactly this, he formed ECFA with China, which is/will opening up Taiwan's door to other nations. Sad truth is, under the last president Chen's terms, Taiwan lost it's initiative to open trade partnerships with other nations when he worsen the relationships between both China and the US, and thus effectively closes Taiwan's door and lost it's economic powess that it used to have.

Speaking of corruption, most agrees that Ma is most anti-corrupt president in Taiwan's history while Chen is still serving terms due to his corruption. Point is, while KMT was definiately corrupt, the DPP is not far off as well. Power changes people I guess.

Lastly, let's talk about ability to run the nation between Tsai and Ma. Ma has been the mayor of the capital of Taiwan, Taipei for 2 terms before he ran for presidency while Tsai has no experience in running a township or a city, so how would one trust her to govern a nation? You may say that she's been the vice premier, but keep in mind that vice premier role is minimal and she only served briefly for about a year. So when you do vote this time, have these thoughts in the back of your head.
xenoid
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada41 Posts
January 13 2012 21:33 GMT
#33
Yes give the money to the rich the trickle down economics will save us all!
FindMeInKenya
Profile Joined February 2011
United States797 Posts
January 13 2012 21:36 GMT
#34
On January 14 2012 06:33 xenoid wrote:
Yes give the money to the rich the trickle down economics will save us all!

Tell me which country beside N. Korea is not doing the same?
xenoid
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada41 Posts
January 13 2012 21:54 GMT
#35
On January 14 2012 06:36 FindMeInKenya wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2012 06:33 xenoid wrote:
Yes give the money to the rich the trickle down economics will save us all!

Tell me which country beside N. Korea is not doing the same?

That's not my point. It's just hilarious to see someone support ideas that only hurt themselves and there's been a good bunch in this thread so far.
FindMeInKenya
Profile Joined February 2011
United States797 Posts
January 13 2012 21:56 GMT
#36
On January 14 2012 06:54 xenoid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2012 06:36 FindMeInKenya wrote:
On January 14 2012 06:33 xenoid wrote:
Yes give the money to the rich the trickle down economics will save us all!

Tell me which country beside N. Korea is not doing the same?

That's not my point. It's just hilarious to see someone support ideas that only hurt themselves and there's been a good bunch in this thread so far.

It sure is easy to laugh at the sideline i guess.
Taiwanese
Profile Joined January 2012
20 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-13 23:00:12
January 13 2012 22:03 GMT
#37
On January 14 2012 06:20 FindMeInKenya wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2012 05:18 Taiwanese wrote:
On January 14 2012 03:53 d_wAy wrote:
On January 14 2012 03:10 Taiwanese wrote:
On January 14 2012 03:02 DrTyrant wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:53 Taiwanese wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:38 DrTyrant wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:20 Taiwanese wrote:
Thanks very much OP.

On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote:
I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States.


That's because up until 1996, Taiwan did not have democratic elections. One year after the Tienanmen incident, the same protests happened in Taiwan in 1990. Thankfully, President Lee accepted the student protester's demands and made it so that after his six year term there would be an election.

In 1996, President Lee won 53% to the DPP candidate's 24%.

Random facts: The first ever DPP candidate, whose name escapes me, was persecuted by the KMT in the 70s for being politically active, distributing pamphlets at university advocating for democratic elections (to give an idea of how 'free' Taiwan was back then). He was sentenced to 18 years in jail but Amnesty International brought his case to the spotlight and he was able to exile to Europe and America. He returned in 1996 to stand and President Lee allowed him to no longer be 'blacklisted'.

President Lee later went on to side with the DPP, and in 2000 the DPP won the second election. Many in the KMT are angry at him for doing so. The DPP won a second term in 2004 after an attempted assassination on the President won sympathy, and then in 2008 the KMT won power back due to the DPP President embezzling public funds and losing public confidence.

I went to the DPP rally tonight. It's the 5th Taiwanese election. I support the DPP because they lean towards the left. Taiwan is a very capitalist country, with a tax rate of 6%. As a result, you cannot go anywhere without seeing dozens of unemployed lying on the streets, too depressed to get up. Social welfare is limited to one single month and if you don't have family supporting you, you are fucked. Everything is user-pays - with the exception of our good public health system.

Thanks for the background history, Taiwanese/ROC politics aren't exactly my strong suite. I realize that the President of the Republic of China has only been directly elected since 1996, but you did have democratic legislative elections for your parliament though, yes?


Technically yes, but they were all KMT legislators and you could pretty much only vote for KMT legislators because if anyone dared to stand as a non-KMT member they would be tried for sedition and jailed as political prisoners. To get a good idea of Taiwan's historical background, it's worth reading this page and then going from the links there if you wish to read further:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident

Wow that's interesting and pretty horrible, especially considering the "White Terror" that followed it for nearly 50 years. Something similar happened to Greece during the Cold War. At least Taiwan is free now, so do you support the current existence of the ROC? An "independent" Taiwan from the ROC and PRC? Or joining the PRC? Or something else?


Personally I do support the KMT's goal of closer economic relations with China, because I think in the future China will be an economic powerhouse and it's best to start establishing trade relations with them now rather than be left behind.

However, the current KMT politicians are all very corrupt - the KMT is the richest political party in the world, owning most of Taiwan's assets. President Ma's platform in 2008 included selling off these assets and returning the funds to the public (because these assets were historically owned by the public but then acquired through duress by the KMT - turning them from public assets into party assets). However, he has not done this - most likely because of pressure within the KMT.

I do support closer economic relations with China, but I feel like the KMT need much more pressure first, from losing another election, before they will make any serious internal national changes, such as returning assets to the public and helping the poor in Taiwan. I would first like to see some social welfare changes, that to me is a more pressing concern than closer economic relations.

I hope that makes sense. Basically I am not against the KMT's goals of economic prosperity. However, I feel like they still act like they deserve to be in government as of right and there is still a lot of corruption (e.g. vote buying - they bribe the city mayors to endorse them), therefore I think one more term in opposition would do them as well as the Taiwanese democratic system as a whole a lot more good. At the moment the KMT's economic goals are for the purpose of making their politicians richer (because their party owns the export industry). I hope that in the future their goals will be for the purpose of making the country's poorer people richer.


I hadn't even thought of the issue of corruption and "黑金" but I think by now we are aware that both parties are guilty of 貪污 and as you mentioned -- much of the KMT's corruption is in the interest of global trade and the export industry.

Part of the reason I am so torn during Taiwanese elections is that while I generally support the party that has the best economic vision going forward (that is, the most free market and innovation-inducing economic policy) -- there is always the underlying sovereignty issue that is hard to push to the sidelines in light of other policy decisions. Though I must say that, much like other Taiwanese, I am quite comfortable with the status quo and would gladly accept the status quo going forward in return for a more prosperous future for the Taiwanese people.

After all, the central issue now is tackling affordability in the urban regions of the island (I cannot believe how absurdly expensive property in Taipei is now!! it's clear that wage growth has not kept pace with inflation, with regards to the average Taiwanese consumer basket), chronically low birth rate, and staying competitive. By the last item, I think while the Taiwanese gov't has done a decent job at moving the island's economy toward the future, increased support and subsidies to budding industries, along with rolling out increased world class infrastructure (both in consumer life and at technology parks) will cement Taiwan's competitiveness and innovation pace.


Taiwan is stuck between a rock and a rock hard erection. This will be my last post in this thread for now as it is 4am here in Taiwan:

* Although I am right-wing at heart, having studied economics at university, I don't believe the status quo KMT's free market policies are working for Taiwan due to the lack of ceterus parabis (the externality preventing equilibrium being China).

Theoretically there should be a trickle down effect - as the rich get richer, there will be more investment, and as a result more jobs for the poor in Taiwan - however, because of closer economic relations with China, the rich are in fact moving all their capital offshore to China and using their cheaper labour. As a result, the rich are getting richer, but the money is going to Taiwan's rich and China's poor, not Taiwan's rich and Taiwan's poor.

So what does that mean for the poor in Taiwan?

Unfortunately, the KMT and President Ma do not seem to have Taiwan's poor's interests at heart. Most of their politicians are Taiwan's rich, because all the industries are owned by the KMT, so want to move all their assets offshore to China in order to make more money.

It is my belief that the DPP, which is made up of mostly farmers, university lecturers and lawyers (as opposed to the KMT, which is made up of career politicians whose parents were also politicians when KMT had autocratic rule), who own pretty much zero assets and relies heavily on donations, who will try harder to do something for the poor in Taiwan.

As an economist, I hesitate to support DPP policies such as the state subsidising local industries, but what other options are there to help the poor and create jobs? According to the free market, Taiwan is a 'failed business' that should be 'left to die' and the economically efficient 'Chinese business' will continue to prosper.

* Someone mentioned earlier that I was biased against James Soong's PFP. By default, I should be supporting him. Why? My dad is tight as fuck with Chang Chau-hsiung - his running mate for the last two elections - we are close family friends and his kids babysat me and my sister when we were younger.

Soong is a clever politician. He isn't in this election to win the Presidency - in fact, he is gambling that English will win. Every single interview he has had leading up to this election he has attacked President Ma only. He's been on the DPP's TV stations for lengthy interviews (in Taiwan, the TV stations are all openly partisan). My dad's theory is that he is hoping that if English wins, English will give him an influential position, such as Premier. He has either thrown all his eggs in one basket, or alternatively already made a deal in secret with the DPP to only attack the KMT in interviews and speeches and not the DPP.

Despite our close family ties with the PFP, I will never respect Soong. When he was a KMT member in the 20th Century, as Education Minister he banned the speaking of the native Taiwanese language and was strongly pro-unification with China (this is before China became more capitalist and free - i.e. when the Communist government would run over citizens with tanks). Today he gives his speeches in the native Taiwanes language - hypocrite. But that's not the worst. When he served under President Lee, he was the Governor of Taiwan - someone who was in charge of all public finances of every district in Taiwan.

The next part is hearsay so I emphasise it is my analysis and opinion - make up your own mind by studying Taiwanese history if you like and some sort of disclaimer about how you should not click the spoiler and by clicking on it you are agreeing not to notify Soong so that he can sue me for defamation since being an average citizen of limited means I can't afford to hire a lawyer:

+ Show Spoiler +
His goal was to become President after President Lee. So he spent his time as Governor effectively 'bribing' every single district. For example, if South Taiwan (Tainan) needed a billion dollars for a construction project, he would give the mayor two billion. And then say to that mayor - endorse me and you can keep the balance. This is how he became so popular - almost every mayor would say he was fantastic because they personally benefitted. Those who didn't received little funding and as a result their districts would suffer from poverty.


President Lee saw what was going on, and despite being a KMT President, because he secretly supported the DPP and Taiwan independence, he chose Lien as his successor, as opposed to Soong. This infuriated Soong, who left the KMT to form the PFP and as a result made the 2000 election a three-way contest between Soong, Lien and Chen. Soong was on track to win, but President Lee released financial statements revealing Soong's 'unbalanced accounts' which resulted in the voters all finding out about the above paragraph which I wrote in the spoilers.

Anyway, I've got to get some rest now so I don't end up sleeping in past when the ballot closes today. Blah, when writing long posts like this, I always feel like I've left something out and will need to come back to post again later.


I have no respect for Lee or his Pan-Green stand. This is the guy who declared that Diaoyu Islands belongs to Japan (talk about maintaining the soverignty of Taiwan), and often visits the Japan's Matyr Shrine, those who massacred, enslaved and raped the Taiwanese people during WWII, and prefer to be called Iwasato masao in Japan.

Talking about Taiwan Independence. Both Tsai & Ma stated that Taiwan is already a soverign nation. There would be no president election if it is not already a nation. If you want a name change you will surely suffer the wrath of China. Let me tell you, the DPP's stand on Independence is all words and no action. If Tsai is elected today, she will not declare indpence during her term, so why even bother.

On the topic of economic reliance on China. We are living in a globalized economy now and FTAs is forming left and right. Taiwan cannot compete with other countries (such as ASEAN+1) unless it also forms FTA with other nations. Problem is China will never allow Taiwan to form FTA with other nations unless Taiwan is on amiable term with China. During Ma's term, he did exactly this, he formed ECFA with China, which is/will opening up Taiwan's door to other nations. Sad truth is, under the last president Chen's terms, Taiwan lost it's initiative to open trade partnerships with other nations when he worsen the relationships between both China and the US, and thus effectively closes Taiwan's door and lost it's economic powess that it used to have.

Speaking of corruption, most agrees that Ma is most anti-corrupt president in Taiwan's history while Chen is still serving terms due to his corruption. Point is, while KMT was definiately corrupt, the DPP is not far off as well. Power changes people I guess.

Lastly, let's talk about ability to run the nation between Tsai and Ma. Ma has been the mayor of the capital of Taiwan, Taipei for 2 terms before he ran for presidency while Tsai has no experience in running a township or a city, so how would one trust her to govern a nation? You may say that she's been the vice premier, but keep in mind that vice premier role is minimal and she only served briefly for about a year. So when you do vote this time, have these thoughts in the back of your head.


Firstly, if not for President Lee, Taiwan would not be having democratic elections. If you want to talk about massacre and rape the KMT are just as responsible for the murdering of Taiwanese citizens and their ill-treatment as the Japanese. While China ran over protesters with tanks in 1989, President Lee invited the student protesters in to discuss how the elections would be held. It is because of him that the DPP even grew to the size it is now in order for there to be fair competition in the elections. From Wikipedia:

+ Show Spoiler +
1990 saw the arrival of the Wild Lily student movement on behalf of full democracy for Taiwan. Thousands of Taiwanese students demonstrated for democratic reforms. The demonstrations culminated in a sit-in demonstration by over 300,000 students at Memorial Square in Taipei. Students called for direct elections of the national president and vice president and for a new election for all legislative seats. On 21 March Lee welcomed some of the students to the Presidential Building. He expressed his support of their goals and pledged his commitment to full democracy in Taiwan. The moment is regarded by supporters of democracy in Taiwan as perhaps his finest moment in office. Gatherings recalling the student movement are regularly held around Taiwan every 21 March.

In May 1991 Lee spearheaded a drive to eliminate the Temporary Provisions Effective During the Period of Communist Rebellion, laws put in place following the KMT arrival in 1949 that suspended the democratic functions of the government. In December 1991 the original members of the Legislative Yuan, elected to represent mainland China constituencies in 1948, were forced to resign and new elections were held to apportion more seats to the bensheng ren. The elections forced Hau Pei-tsun from the premiership, a position he was given in exchange for his tacit support of Lee. He was replaced by Lien Chan, then an ally of Lee.

The prospect of the first island-wide democratic election the next year, together with Lee's June 1995 visit to Cornell University, sparked the Third Taiwan Strait Crisis. The previous eight presidents and vice-presidents of Taiwan had been elected by the members of the National Assembly. For the first time Taiwan's leader would be elected by majority vote of Taiwan's population. The People's Republic of China conducted a series of missile tests in the waters surrounding Taiwan and other military maneuvers off the coast of Fujian in response to what Communist Party leaders described as moves by Lee to "split the motherland." The PRC government launched another set of tests just days before the election, sending missiles over the island to express its dissatisfaction should the Taiwanese people vote for Lee. The military actions disrupted trade and shipping lines and caused a temporary dip in the Asian stock market. Ironically, the 1996 missile launches boosted support for Lee instead.


Trivia: It was President Lee who encouraged DPP members to storm Parliament so that it would become international news, raising awareness about the KMT totalitarian makeup of Parliament where many of their leading members never had to be elected which is what is responsible for the culture of Parliamentary brawls.

Secondly, I hardly care about what Taiwan is called namewise - which of course is what the KMT want people to believe the 'sovereignty' issue is about. What I am concerned about is Taiwan's international presence and trading ability being bullied by China. You make the sovereignty issue into something as if it's just a name - it's not, it includes significant international implications such as the ability to trade as a sovereign nation without having other nations be under duress by China for trading with Taiwan (e.g. China threatening other nations with trade sanctions if they dare establish trading relationships with Taiwan) - take UN membership for example:

+ Show Spoiler +
Don’t Put Taiwan’s Democracy and Freedom back into a Box
Koo Kwang-ming 辜寬敏

"A long, long time ago…" are the words that many of the old stories begin with. Today, I would like to share with you a true story about Taiwan that the US and the world have deliberately ignored for a long, long time. I believe that maybe 70 percent to 80 percent of the US public knows that Taiwan is a country. At the same time, however, maybe only 1 percent of Americans know that Taiwan is not a member of the UN, and maybe only 0.001 percent know why this is so.

The truth I want to tell you about is this: our country, Taiwan, has been isolated by the UN in an act of political discrimination that has lasted for more than 36 years. It is the only country in the world to be denied UN membership. The human rights of 23 million Taiwanese have been ignored by the UN for a long, long time, and the US government has helped making it the case.

Just as Ralph Ellison said that African Americans once were the invisible man of American society, Taiwan is now the " invisible" member of the international community. What is worse is that omit to the democratic Taiwan has been living in the shadow of China’s constant threat. China has now deployed almost 1,000 missiles aimed at Taiwan and is threatening annexation of Taiwan at any time.

Although China is a totalitarian and dictatorial communist state, the US unfortunately has sided with the Chinese dictatorship to suppress Taiwan’s democracy. This is both incomprehensible and deplorable. The US government called Iraq a terrorist state and stood up against Iraq when it invaded Kuwait, but chooses to look at China's military expansion and intimidation with one eye closed. I must admonish the US government: "Washington’s appeasement of China resembles nothing but the British prime minister Neville Chamberlain’s appeasement of Hitler prior to the Second World War!"

If "Taiwan is not a state", the U.S. has the responsibility Dennis Wilder, the senior director of East Asian Affairs on the US' National Security Council, recently said that "Taiwan is not a state." This has outraged and humiliated the Taiwanese people. But we also felt a sense of relief when he added that Taiwan issue has been left undecided for a long long time. The U.S. government has finally decided to face a fact that it has turned a blind eye to for half a century. The truth is: Taiwan is a country with 23 million people, who can freely elect their own leaders. We have the capacities to exercise our sovereign powers both domestically and on the international front. The US government’s refusal to recognize Taiwan as a sovereign state cannot challenge the reality that Taiwan has been a sovereign state
for decades.

Moreover, if Taiwan is not a sovereign state in the eyes of US government officials, I must ask if the US has no responsibility for this situation? The 1952 San Francisco Peace Treaty that concluded World War II did not clarify Taiwan's status, and for a long time after, the US approved Chiang Kai-shek's brutal military occupation of Taiwan which imposed 38 years of martial law that left Taiwanese in darkness and isolation.

From the 1950s to the 1980s, tens of thousands of Taiwanese sacrificed their lives and freedom in their struggle to overthrow the dictatorship and to gain democracy and liberty. That heavy price was paid not only for the cause of democracy and freedom, but also because we longed to establish a new and sovereign state as the unavoidable conclusion to centuries of colonial rule and struggle for independence. I think this is something the American people can understand and identify with.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." What the Taiwanese people have been striving for the past decades is the realization of nothing but this famous and courageous statement in the United States Declaration of Independence. With the consolidation of democracy in Taiwan, we feel proud to say that we have gradually advanced our causes. We are still working hard toward our goal.

But when the Taiwanese people want to rely on a democratic referendum and self determination to confirm Taiwan's status as a sovereign state, the US government says, "You can't do that." When we want to hold a referendum to manifest the wish of all Taiwanese to join the United Nations, the US government says, "You can't do that." The US government encourages Taiwan to develop its democracy, but also warns us that we can't hold referendums or declare independence, all because of the fear of provoking Beijing. The US government is even opposed to Taiwan having its own constitution, own flag or own national anthem that are necessary for building a nation that can withstand Chinese pressure. Is this sensible? Is this the right message the US should be sending to Communist dictators?

Why democratic Taiwan can’t join the UN? At present, 77 percent of Taiwanese want Taiwan to join the UN and become a member of this family of nations. We therefore hope that the presidential election next year will include a referendum to allow every Taiwanese to use his or her vote to manifest their wish that Taiwan be allowed to join the UN and use the collective will of the Taiwanese people to tell the world that we are not happy with the current situation. This simple and humble democratic expression, however, is forcefully opposed and suppressed by the US government, and this causes disappointment and anger among the people of Taiwan who have placed high hopes on the US and its great people.

Taiwan and North Korea are both countries with about 23 million people. Taiwan’s economic and democratic achievements are something that North Korea cannot match. However, Washington, even without recognizing North Korea as a sovereign state, did not oppose Pyongyang’s UN bid in the 1990s. In comparison, the U.S. government’s treatment of democratic Taiwan is both disappointing and disturbing. Shouldn't the human rights of 23 million Taiwanese be respected? We know that the US opposition to Taiwan’s UN membership is a result of China’s bullying for military tension in the Taiwan Strait. However, if cooperating with China to suppress democratic Taiwan is the best solution that Washington authorities can come up with after 60 years, we must ask if US intellectual leadership on this matter is already a thing of the past.

As long as Taiwan is not a member of the UN, that organization will always suffer from a flaw in its conscience. As long as the US doesn't help Taiwan become a normal country and gain UN membership, it will always carry a stamp of shame.

It’s time for the US to reevaluate its policy on the Taiwan Strait. In 2003, I published a statement in this newspaper telling the US government it was time for a serious reevaluation of its China policy because it is absurd to see a country adhere to a flawed policy for three decades. The status quo in the Taiwan Strait today has changed completely from the status quo of 30 years ago. According to the latest Taiwanese opinion polls, 70 percent of Taiwanese see themselves as Taiwanese and 75 percent think that Taiwan is an independent and sovereign state. The Shanghai communiqué of 1972 which states that, "all Chinese on either side of the Taiwan Strait maintain there is but one China and that Taiwan is a part of China" was never true.

The US government must take a square look at this political reality lest it keep making mistakes in its Taiwan policy and make serious political misjudgments in the Asia Pacific region The US was completely powerless to stop the massive Chinese military buildup across the Taiwan Strait. But the US is not powerless if it chooses to strengthen Taiwan’s democracy and nation-building that are necessary for the Taiwanese to withstand Chinese pressure. The US can also tell the Chinese that their bullying of Taiwan is counterproductive, that the resultant resentment the Taiwanese feel toward the Chinese will only make the eventual reconciliation more difficult.

Taiwan shall overcome! For the past ten years, China has tried to strangle Taiwan with its military threats and diplomatic blockade. But in spite of their efforts, Taiwan has managed to survive. I want to tell the world that Taiwan still exists! This small and beautiful country still exists in the West Pacific. The mighty Taiwanese people will fight for our beloved country till the end! As God and the American people are our witnesses:We will not be defeated; Taiwan
shall overcome! The constant bullying by the Chinese to deny our identity only hardened our resolve to fight for independence and international recognition!

"You can’t put democracy and freedom back into a box," said President George W. Bush. For all these years, on our way to democratization, Taiwanese people have received enormous support and encouragement from our American friends. As democratic Taiwan requires the moral support of the international community when its people make a free decision on their future, I call on all great Americans and their representatives to tell the US government and the UN:

"Don’t put Taiwan’s democracy and freedom back into a box!"
"Help Taiwan join the UN!"

(The writer was a former senior adviser to the President of Taiwan )
(The article was published in Washington Post and NY Times on September
17, 2007)


Also note that Taiwan was unable to join the World Health Organization also which results in Taiwan having inferior healthcare resources compared to nations who can join - all because China isn't happy with Taiwan being involved internationally with other countries. It's not like the DPP don't want to achieve things such as free trade - but how is this possible when there is a neighbouring bullying nation that tells the rest of the world not to associate with you out of nationalist pride? It is China that cares more about the name than Taiwanese. What we want are the economic benefits (as well as the dignity) of nationhood.

The problem with President Ma's policies is that it is moving Taiwanese businesses offshore and resulting in China draining Taiwan's ability to compete internationally. I agree Taiwan eventually has to open up closer economic relations with China. But at the moment we are at an unfair disadvantage where China can call all the shots. As I mentioned in my previous post, according to the free market Taiwan is a failed company that would be liquidated whilst China continues on as a thriving monopoly.

Thirdly - if you think President Ma is not corrupt why is he so rich? His parents (who were government officials) were corrupt. He has no need to be corrupt. His 'corruption' is not going after the KMT's politicians who have been corrupt, and instead protecting them. One of his election platforms in 2008 was to sell off KMT assets and return the money to the public purse. He hasn't done this and the KMT politicians are happy about that. FTR I agree ex-President Chen also has no excuse for his corruption.

+ Show Spoiler +
On this note though... Many have said the DPP are just as corrupt as the KMT. Not true. Proportionally they are nowhere near. The KMT mass murdered Taiwanese in order to gain all of Taiwan's assets and are still benefiting from them (being POEs - Party Owned Assets - not State Owned Assets. The KMT politicians are not being pursued in court because the judiciary is controlled by the KMT. The judiciary accepts 97% mainland Chinese as judges and 3% Taiwanese to become judges due to an archaic law enacted when China took over Taiwan after Japan that has not been changed. The first time ex-President Chen was tried the judge ruled that further evidence had to be collated before he was indicted according to law, he was fired the next day. My friend is taking the examination to become a judge and says everyone has to say they are supporters of the KMT otherwise they are basically disqualified due to the government officials in charge of the induction process. The KMT never go after their hundreds of politicians who are corrupt, and their corruption financially is in the hundreds of billions compared to the DPP). People who say the DPP are just as corrupt as the KMT are comparing apples to apple orchards.


Lastly - do you seriously think Tsai will not have the advice and support of prominent DPP members such as Frank Hsieh, Su Tseng-chang, ex-vice-President Annette Lu and Yu Shyi-kun who all have a wealth of governing experience. If you want to talk governing experience President Ma was a relative amateur in experience compared to many KMT politicians when he first stood for President and was in my opinion not a good mayor for Taipei, hardly solving any of its urban issues during his mayoralty.

Edit: For an idea of how the KMT dealt with the DPP prior to President Lee, see here - many of the prominent DPP members were political prisoners and lawyers involved with this historically tragic incident:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaohsiung_Incident
Taiwanese
Profile Joined January 2012
20 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-13 23:59:36
January 13 2012 23:08 GMT
#38
I got no sleep.

Funnytoss
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Taiwan1471 Posts
January 14 2012 00:33 GMT
#39
The KMT is definitely more corrupt than the DPP if you're just speaking of the amount of public money they've been able to siphon off into their own coffers in their *many* years of rule. That said, it's a pretty fair observation to say that pretty much all politicians in Taiwan are corrupt anyway to a certain extent, and as such their competence becomes the main issue. I agree with most of the DPP's stances, particularly regarding wariness of the PRC and national sovereignty, but they haven't been able to prove their competence in governing and I'd vote KMT if only because while they'll still steal from you, at least they get more shit done.

It's a bit understandable that the DPP isn't as good at getting things done compared to the KMT, since... well, the KMT *was* the government for 60+ years and all the relations with businesses and under-the-table deals were done with the KMT. Still, the reality of it is that you can't just vote with your heart and emotions, and while I really do detest a lot of the KMT, I recognize they're probably the better choice at the moment, until the DPP gets its act together, in terms of concrete action.
AIV_Funnytoss and sGs.Funnytoss on iCCup
FindMeInKenya
Profile Joined February 2011
United States797 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-14 01:05:23
January 14 2012 01:03 GMT
#40
On January 14 2012 07:03 Taiwanese wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2012 06:20 FindMeInKenya wrote:
On January 14 2012 05:18 Taiwanese wrote:
On January 14 2012 03:53 d_wAy wrote:
On January 14 2012 03:10 Taiwanese wrote:
On January 14 2012 03:02 DrTyrant wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:53 Taiwanese wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:38 DrTyrant wrote:
On January 14 2012 02:20 Taiwanese wrote:
Thanks very much OP.

On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote:
I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States.


That's because up until 1996, Taiwan did not have democratic elections. One year after the Tienanmen incident, the same protests happened in Taiwan in 1990. Thankfully, President Lee accepted the student protester's demands and made it so that after his six year term there would be an election.

In 1996, President Lee won 53% to the DPP candidate's 24%.

Random facts: The first ever DPP candidate, whose name escapes me, was persecuted by the KMT in the 70s for being politically active, distributing pamphlets at university advocating for democratic elections (to give an idea of how 'free' Taiwan was back then). He was sentenced to 18 years in jail but Amnesty International brought his case to the spotlight and he was able to exile to Europe and America. He returned in 1996 to stand and President Lee allowed him to no longer be 'blacklisted'.

President Lee later went on to side with the DPP, and in 2000 the DPP won the second election. Many in the KMT are angry at him for doing so. The DPP won a second term in 2004 after an attempted assassination on the President won sympathy, and then in 2008 the KMT won power back due to the DPP President embezzling public funds and losing public confidence.

I went to the DPP rally tonight. It's the 5th Taiwanese election. I support the DPP because they lean towards the left. Taiwan is a very capitalist country, with a tax rate of 6%. As a result, you cannot go anywhere without seeing dozens of unemployed lying on the streets, too depressed to get up. Social welfare is limited to one single month and if you don't have family supporting you, you are fucked. Everything is user-pays - with the exception of our good public health system.

Thanks for the background history, Taiwanese/ROC politics aren't exactly my strong suite. I realize that the President of the Republic of China has only been directly elected since 1996, but you did have democratic legislative elections for your parliament though, yes?


Technically yes, but they were all KMT legislators and you could pretty much only vote for KMT legislators because if anyone dared to stand as a non-KMT member they would be tried for sedition and jailed as political prisoners. To get a good idea of Taiwan's historical background, it's worth reading this page and then going from the links there if you wish to read further:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident

Wow that's interesting and pretty horrible, especially considering the "White Terror" that followed it for nearly 50 years. Something similar happened to Greece during the Cold War. At least Taiwan is free now, so do you support the current existence of the ROC? An "independent" Taiwan from the ROC and PRC? Or joining the PRC? Or something else?


Personally I do support the KMT's goal of closer economic relations with China, because I think in the future China will be an economic powerhouse and it's best to start establishing trade relations with them now rather than be left behind.

However, the current KMT politicians are all very corrupt - the KMT is the richest political party in the world, owning most of Taiwan's assets. President Ma's platform in 2008 included selling off these assets and returning the funds to the public (because these assets were historically owned by the public but then acquired through duress by the KMT - turning them from public assets into party assets). However, he has not done this - most likely because of pressure within the KMT.

I do support closer economic relations with China, but I feel like the KMT need much more pressure first, from losing another election, before they will make any serious internal national changes, such as returning assets to the public and helping the poor in Taiwan. I would first like to see some social welfare changes, that to me is a more pressing concern than closer economic relations.

I hope that makes sense. Basically I am not against the KMT's goals of economic prosperity. However, I feel like they still act like they deserve to be in government as of right and there is still a lot of corruption (e.g. vote buying - they bribe the city mayors to endorse them), therefore I think one more term in opposition would do them as well as the Taiwanese democratic system as a whole a lot more good. At the moment the KMT's economic goals are for the purpose of making their politicians richer (because their party owns the export industry). I hope that in the future their goals will be for the purpose of making the country's poorer people richer.


I hadn't even thought of the issue of corruption and "黑金" but I think by now we are aware that both parties are guilty of 貪污 and as you mentioned -- much of the KMT's corruption is in the interest of global trade and the export industry.

Part of the reason I am so torn during Taiwanese elections is that while I generally support the party that has the best economic vision going forward (that is, the most free market and innovation-inducing economic policy) -- there is always the underlying sovereignty issue that is hard to push to the sidelines in light of other policy decisions. Though I must say that, much like other Taiwanese, I am quite comfortable with the status quo and would gladly accept the status quo going forward in return for a more prosperous future for the Taiwanese people.

After all, the central issue now is tackling affordability in the urban regions of the island (I cannot believe how absurdly expensive property in Taipei is now!! it's clear that wage growth has not kept pace with inflation, with regards to the average Taiwanese consumer basket), chronically low birth rate, and staying competitive. By the last item, I think while the Taiwanese gov't has done a decent job at moving the island's economy toward the future, increased support and subsidies to budding industries, along with rolling out increased world class infrastructure (both in consumer life and at technology parks) will cement Taiwan's competitiveness and innovation pace.


Taiwan is stuck between a rock and a rock hard erection. This will be my last post in this thread for now as it is 4am here in Taiwan:

* Although I am right-wing at heart, having studied economics at university, I don't believe the status quo KMT's free market policies are working for Taiwan due to the lack of ceterus parabis (the externality preventing equilibrium being China).

Theoretically there should be a trickle down effect - as the rich get richer, there will be more investment, and as a result more jobs for the poor in Taiwan - however, because of closer economic relations with China, the rich are in fact moving all their capital offshore to China and using their cheaper labour. As a result, the rich are getting richer, but the money is going to Taiwan's rich and China's poor, not Taiwan's rich and Taiwan's poor.

So what does that mean for the poor in Taiwan?

Unfortunately, the KMT and President Ma do not seem to have Taiwan's poor's interests at heart. Most of their politicians are Taiwan's rich, because all the industries are owned by the KMT, so want to move all their assets offshore to China in order to make more money.

It is my belief that the DPP, which is made up of mostly farmers, university lecturers and lawyers (as opposed to the KMT, which is made up of career politicians whose parents were also politicians when KMT had autocratic rule), who own pretty much zero assets and relies heavily on donations, who will try harder to do something for the poor in Taiwan.

As an economist, I hesitate to support DPP policies such as the state subsidising local industries, but what other options are there to help the poor and create jobs? According to the free market, Taiwan is a 'failed business' that should be 'left to die' and the economically efficient 'Chinese business' will continue to prosper.

* Someone mentioned earlier that I was biased against James Soong's PFP. By default, I should be supporting him. Why? My dad is tight as fuck with Chang Chau-hsiung - his running mate for the last two elections - we are close family friends and his kids babysat me and my sister when we were younger.

Soong is a clever politician. He isn't in this election to win the Presidency - in fact, he is gambling that English will win. Every single interview he has had leading up to this election he has attacked President Ma only. He's been on the DPP's TV stations for lengthy interviews (in Taiwan, the TV stations are all openly partisan). My dad's theory is that he is hoping that if English wins, English will give him an influential position, such as Premier. He has either thrown all his eggs in one basket, or alternatively already made a deal in secret with the DPP to only attack the KMT in interviews and speeches and not the DPP.

Despite our close family ties with the PFP, I will never respect Soong. When he was a KMT member in the 20th Century, as Education Minister he banned the speaking of the native Taiwanese language and was strongly pro-unification with China (this is before China became more capitalist and free - i.e. when the Communist government would run over citizens with tanks). Today he gives his speeches in the native Taiwanes language - hypocrite. But that's not the worst. When he served under President Lee, he was the Governor of Taiwan - someone who was in charge of all public finances of every district in Taiwan.

The next part is hearsay so I emphasise it is my analysis and opinion - make up your own mind by studying Taiwanese history if you like and some sort of disclaimer about how you should not click the spoiler and by clicking on it you are agreeing not to notify Soong so that he can sue me for defamation since being an average citizen of limited means I can't afford to hire a lawyer:

+ Show Spoiler +
His goal was to become President after President Lee. So he spent his time as Governor effectively 'bribing' every single district. For example, if South Taiwan (Tainan) needed a billion dollars for a construction project, he would give the mayor two billion. And then say to that mayor - endorse me and you can keep the balance. This is how he became so popular - almost every mayor would say he was fantastic because they personally benefitted. Those who didn't received little funding and as a result their districts would suffer from poverty.


President Lee saw what was going on, and despite being a KMT President, because he secretly supported the DPP and Taiwan independence, he chose Lien as his successor, as opposed to Soong. This infuriated Soong, who left the KMT to form the PFP and as a result made the 2000 election a three-way contest between Soong, Lien and Chen. Soong was on track to win, but President Lee released financial statements revealing Soong's 'unbalanced accounts' which resulted in the voters all finding out about the above paragraph which I wrote in the spoilers.

Anyway, I've got to get some rest now so I don't end up sleeping in past when the ballot closes today. Blah, when writing long posts like this, I always feel like I've left something out and will need to come back to post again later.


I have no respect for Lee or his Pan-Green stand. This is the guy who declared that Diaoyu Islands belongs to Japan (talk about maintaining the soverignty of Taiwan), and often visits the Japan's Matyr Shrine, those who massacred, enslaved and raped the Taiwanese people during WWII, and prefer to be called Iwasato masao in Japan.

Talking about Taiwan Independence. Both Tsai & Ma stated that Taiwan is already a soverign nation. There would be no president election if it is not already a nation. If you want a name change you will surely suffer the wrath of China. Let me tell you, the DPP's stand on Independence is all words and no action. If Tsai is elected today, she will not declare indpence during her term, so why even bother.

On the topic of economic reliance on China. We are living in a globalized economy now and FTAs is forming left and right. Taiwan cannot compete with other countries (such as ASEAN+1) unless it also forms FTA with other nations. Problem is China will never allow Taiwan to form FTA with other nations unless Taiwan is on amiable term with China. During Ma's term, he did exactly this, he formed ECFA with China, which is/will opening up Taiwan's door to other nations. Sad truth is, under the last president Chen's terms, Taiwan lost it's initiative to open trade partnerships with other nations when he worsen the relationships between both China and the US, and thus effectively closes Taiwan's door and lost it's economic powess that it used to have.

Speaking of corruption, most agrees that Ma is most anti-corrupt president in Taiwan's history while Chen is still serving terms due to his corruption. Point is, while KMT was definiately corrupt, the DPP is not far off as well. Power changes people I guess.

Lastly, let's talk about ability to run the nation between Tsai and Ma. Ma has been the mayor of the capital of Taiwan, Taipei for 2 terms before he ran for presidency while Tsai has no experience in running a township or a city, so how would one trust her to govern a nation? You may say that she's been the vice premier, but keep in mind that vice premier role is minimal and she only served briefly for about a year. So when you do vote this time, have these thoughts in the back of your head.


Firstly, if not for President Lee, Taiwan would not be having democratic elections. If you want to talk about massacre and rape the KMT are just as responsible for the murdering of Taiwanese citizens and their ill-treatment as the Japanese. While China ran over protesters with tanks in 1989, President Lee invited the student protesters in to discuss how the elections would be held. It is because of him that the DPP even grew to the size it is now in order for there to be fair competition in the elections. From Wikipedia:

+ Show Spoiler +
1990 saw the arrival of the Wild Lily student movement on behalf of full democracy for Taiwan. Thousands of Taiwanese students demonstrated for democratic reforms. The demonstrations culminated in a sit-in demonstration by over 300,000 students at Memorial Square in Taipei. Students called for direct elections of the national president and vice president and for a new election for all legislative seats. On 21 March Lee welcomed some of the students to the Presidential Building. He expressed his support of their goals and pledged his commitment to full democracy in Taiwan. The moment is regarded by supporters of democracy in Taiwan as perhaps his finest moment in office. Gatherings recalling the student movement are regularly held around Taiwan every 21 March.

In May 1991 Lee spearheaded a drive to eliminate the Temporary Provisions Effective During the Period of Communist Rebellion, laws put in place following the KMT arrival in 1949 that suspended the democratic functions of the government. In December 1991 the original members of the Legislative Yuan, elected to represent mainland China constituencies in 1948, were forced to resign and new elections were held to apportion more seats to the bensheng ren. The elections forced Hau Pei-tsun from the premiership, a position he was given in exchange for his tacit support of Lee. He was replaced by Lien Chan, then an ally of Lee.

The prospect of the first island-wide democratic election the next year, together with Lee's June 1995 visit to Cornell University, sparked the Third Taiwan Strait Crisis. The previous eight presidents and vice-presidents of Taiwan had been elected by the members of the National Assembly. For the first time Taiwan's leader would be elected by majority vote of Taiwan's population. The People's Republic of China conducted a series of missile tests in the waters surrounding Taiwan and other military maneuvers off the coast of Fujian in response to what Communist Party leaders described as moves by Lee to "split the motherland." The PRC government launched another set of tests just days before the election, sending missiles over the island to express its dissatisfaction should the Taiwanese people vote for Lee. The military actions disrupted trade and shipping lines and caused a temporary dip in the Asian stock market. Ironically, the 1996 missile launches boosted support for Lee instead.


Trivia: It was President Lee who encouraged DPP members to storm Parliament so that it would become international news, raising awareness about the KMT totalitarian makeup of Parliament where many of their leading members never had to be elected which is what is responsible for the culture of Parliamentary brawls.

Secondly, I hardly care about what Taiwan is called namewise - which of course is what the KMT want people to believe the 'sovereignty' issue is about. What I am concerned about is Taiwan's international presence and trading ability being bullied by China. You make the sovereignty issue into something as if it's just a name - it's not, it includes significant international implications such as the ability to trade as a sovereign nation without having other nations be under duress by China for trading with Taiwan (e.g. China threatening other nations with trade sanctions if they dare establish trading relationships with Taiwan) - take UN membership for example:

+ Show Spoiler +
Don’t Put Taiwan’s Democracy and Freedom back into a Box
Koo Kwang-ming 辜寬敏

"A long, long time ago…" are the words that many of the old stories begin with. Today, I would like to share with you a true story about Taiwan that the US and the world have deliberately ignored for a long, long time. I believe that maybe 70 percent to 80 percent of the US public knows that Taiwan is a country. At the same time, however, maybe only 1 percent of Americans know that Taiwan is not a member of the UN, and maybe only 0.001 percent know why this is so.

The truth I want to tell you about is this: our country, Taiwan, has been isolated by the UN in an act of political discrimination that has lasted for more than 36 years. It is the only country in the world to be denied UN membership. The human rights of 23 million Taiwanese have been ignored by the UN for a long, long time, and the US government has helped making it the case.

Just as Ralph Ellison said that African Americans once were the invisible man of American society, Taiwan is now the " invisible" member of the international community. What is worse is that omit to the democratic Taiwan has been living in the shadow of China’s constant threat. China has now deployed almost 1,000 missiles aimed at Taiwan and is threatening annexation of Taiwan at any time.

Although China is a totalitarian and dictatorial communist state, the US unfortunately has sided with the Chinese dictatorship to suppress Taiwan’s democracy. This is both incomprehensible and deplorable. The US government called Iraq a terrorist state and stood up against Iraq when it invaded Kuwait, but chooses to look at China's military expansion and intimidation with one eye closed. I must admonish the US government: "Washington’s appeasement of China resembles nothing but the British prime minister Neville Chamberlain’s appeasement of Hitler prior to the Second World War!"

If "Taiwan is not a state", the U.S. has the responsibility Dennis Wilder, the senior director of East Asian Affairs on the US' National Security Council, recently said that "Taiwan is not a state." This has outraged and humiliated the Taiwanese people. But we also felt a sense of relief when he added that Taiwan issue has been left undecided for a long long time. The U.S. government has finally decided to face a fact that it has turned a blind eye to for half a century. The truth is: Taiwan is a country with 23 million people, who can freely elect their own leaders. We have the capacities to exercise our sovereign powers both domestically and on the international front. The US government’s refusal to recognize Taiwan as a sovereign state cannot challenge the reality that Taiwan has been a sovereign state
for decades.

Moreover, if Taiwan is not a sovereign state in the eyes of US government officials, I must ask if the US has no responsibility for this situation? The 1952 San Francisco Peace Treaty that concluded World War II did not clarify Taiwan's status, and for a long time after, the US approved Chiang Kai-shek's brutal military occupation of Taiwan which imposed 38 years of martial law that left Taiwanese in darkness and isolation.

From the 1950s to the 1980s, tens of thousands of Taiwanese sacrificed their lives and freedom in their struggle to overthrow the dictatorship and to gain democracy and liberty. That heavy price was paid not only for the cause of democracy and freedom, but also because we longed to establish a new and sovereign state as the unavoidable conclusion to centuries of colonial rule and struggle for independence. I think this is something the American people can understand and identify with.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." What the Taiwanese people have been striving for the past decades is the realization of nothing but this famous and courageous statement in the United States Declaration of Independence. With the consolidation of democracy in Taiwan, we feel proud to say that we have gradually advanced our causes. We are still working hard toward our goal.

But when the Taiwanese people want to rely on a democratic referendum and self determination to confirm Taiwan's status as a sovereign state, the US government says, "You can't do that." When we want to hold a referendum to manifest the wish of all Taiwanese to join the United Nations, the US government says, "You can't do that." The US government encourages Taiwan to develop its democracy, but also warns us that we can't hold referendums or declare independence, all because of the fear of provoking Beijing. The US government is even opposed to Taiwan having its own constitution, own flag or own national anthem that are necessary for building a nation that can withstand Chinese pressure. Is this sensible? Is this the right message the US should be sending to Communist dictators?

Why democratic Taiwan can’t join the UN? At present, 77 percent of Taiwanese want Taiwan to join the UN and become a member of this family of nations. We therefore hope that the presidential election next year will include a referendum to allow every Taiwanese to use his or her vote to manifest their wish that Taiwan be allowed to join the UN and use the collective will of the Taiwanese people to tell the world that we are not happy with the current situation. This simple and humble democratic expression, however, is forcefully opposed and suppressed by the US government, and this causes disappointment and anger among the people of Taiwan who have placed high hopes on the US and its great people.

Taiwan and North Korea are both countries with about 23 million people. Taiwan’s economic and democratic achievements are something that North Korea cannot match. However, Washington, even without recognizing North Korea as a sovereign state, did not oppose Pyongyang’s UN bid in the 1990s. In comparison, the U.S. government’s treatment of democratic Taiwan is both disappointing and disturbing. Shouldn't the human rights of 23 million Taiwanese be respected? We know that the US opposition to Taiwan’s UN membership is a result of China’s bullying for military tension in the Taiwan Strait. However, if cooperating with China to suppress democratic Taiwan is the best solution that Washington authorities can come up with after 60 years, we must ask if US intellectual leadership on this matter is already a thing of the past.

As long as Taiwan is not a member of the UN, that organization will always suffer from a flaw in its conscience. As long as the US doesn't help Taiwan become a normal country and gain UN membership, it will always carry a stamp of shame.

It’s time for the US to reevaluate its policy on the Taiwan Strait. In 2003, I published a statement in this newspaper telling the US government it was time for a serious reevaluation of its China policy because it is absurd to see a country adhere to a flawed policy for three decades. The status quo in the Taiwan Strait today has changed completely from the status quo of 30 years ago. According to the latest Taiwanese opinion polls, 70 percent of Taiwanese see themselves as Taiwanese and 75 percent think that Taiwan is an independent and sovereign state. The Shanghai communiqué of 1972 which states that, "all Chinese on either side of the Taiwan Strait maintain there is but one China and that Taiwan is a part of China" was never true.

The US government must take a square look at this political reality lest it keep making mistakes in its Taiwan policy and make serious political misjudgments in the Asia Pacific region The US was completely powerless to stop the massive Chinese military buildup across the Taiwan Strait. But the US is not powerless if it chooses to strengthen Taiwan’s democracy and nation-building that are necessary for the Taiwanese to withstand Chinese pressure. The US can also tell the Chinese that their bullying of Taiwan is counterproductive, that the resultant resentment the Taiwanese feel toward the Chinese will only make the eventual reconciliation more difficult.

Taiwan shall overcome! For the past ten years, China has tried to strangle Taiwan with its military threats and diplomatic blockade. But in spite of their efforts, Taiwan has managed to survive. I want to tell the world that Taiwan still exists! This small and beautiful country still exists in the West Pacific. The mighty Taiwanese people will fight for our beloved country till the end! As God and the American people are our witnesses:We will not be defeated; Taiwan
shall overcome! The constant bullying by the Chinese to deny our identity only hardened our resolve to fight for independence and international recognition!

"You can’t put democracy and freedom back into a box," said President George W. Bush. For all these years, on our way to democratization, Taiwanese people have received enormous support and encouragement from our American friends. As democratic Taiwan requires the moral support of the international community when its people make a free decision on their future, I call on all great Americans and their representatives to tell the US government and the UN:

"Don’t put Taiwan’s democracy and freedom back into a box!"
"Help Taiwan join the UN!"

(The writer was a former senior adviser to the President of Taiwan )
(The article was published in Washington Post and NY Times on September
17, 2007)


Also note that Taiwan was unable to join the World Health Organization also which results in Taiwan having inferior healthcare resources compared to nations who can join - all because China isn't happy with Taiwan being involved internationally with other countries. It's not like the DPP don't want to achieve things such as free trade - but how is this possible when there is a neighbouring bullying nation that tells the rest of the world not to associate with you out of nationalist pride? It is China that cares more about the name than Taiwanese. What we want are the economic benefits (as well as the dignity) of nationhood.

The problem with President Ma's policies is that it is moving Taiwanese businesses offshore and resulting in China draining Taiwan's ability to compete internationally. I agree Taiwan eventually has to open up closer economic relations with China. But at the moment we are at an unfair disadvantage where China can call all the shots. As I mentioned in my previous post, according to the free market Taiwan is a failed company that would be liquidated whilst China continues on as a thriving monopoly.

Thirdly - if you think President Ma is not corrupt why is he so rich? His parents (who were government officials) were corrupt. He has no need to be corrupt. His 'corruption' is not going after the KMT's politicians who have been corrupt, and instead protecting them. One of his election platforms in 2008 was to sell off KMT assets and return the money to the public purse. He hasn't done this and the KMT politicians are happy about that. FTR I agree ex-President Chen also has no excuse for his corruption.

+ Show Spoiler +
On this note though... Many have said the DPP are just as corrupt as the KMT. Not true. Proportionally they are nowhere near. The KMT mass murdered Taiwanese in order to gain all of Taiwan's assets and are still benefiting from them (being POEs - Party Owned Assets - not State Owned Assets. The KMT politicians are not being pursued in court because the judiciary is controlled by the KMT. The judiciary accepts 97% mainland Chinese as judges and 3% Taiwanese to become judges due to an archaic law enacted when China took over Taiwan after Japan that has not been changed. The first time ex-President Chen was tried the judge ruled that further evidence had to be collated before he was indicted according to law, he was fired the next day. My friend is taking the examination to become a judge and says everyone has to say they are supporters of the KMT otherwise they are basically disqualified due to the government officials in charge of the induction process. The KMT never go after their hundreds of politicians who are corrupt, and their corruption financially is in the hundreds of billions compared to the DPP). People who say the DPP are just as corrupt as the KMT are comparing apples to apple orchards.


Lastly - do you seriously think Tsai will not have the advice and support of prominent DPP members such as Frank Hsieh, Su Tseng-chang, ex-vice-President Annette Lu and Yu Shyi-kun who all have a wealth of governing experience. If you want to talk governing experience President Ma was a relative amateur in experience compared to many KMT politicians when he first stood for President and was in my opinion not a good mayor for Taipei, hardly solving any of its urban issues during his mayoralty.

Edit: For an idea of how the KMT dealt with the DPP prior to President Lee, see here - many of the prominent DPP members were political prisoners and lawyers involved with this historically tragic incident:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaohsiung_Incident

So...... you did not deny what I said, right?

You are exactly right about China calls all the shots now. So your idea of reviving Taiwan's economy is to....... what? Go against the Chinese powerhouse like Chen did? How did that end up? lol.

About Ma being corrupt, at least give me some sources to prove it.

About your lastly, if Tsai use the same advisors/coucilors as Chen, how would it be any different between Tsai's presidency and Chen's? last time i heard Tsai is trying hard to seperate herself from Chen.

And you are right, many prominent DPP members were political prisoners. And guess what, most of them are no longer DPP members and many actually speak out against DPP now a days and take a pan-blue stance (regarding economy and corruption at least). So what does that say about the current state of DPP now?
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
January 14 2012 01:05 GMT
#41
On January 14 2012 06:05 chenchen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2012 05:41 Sufficiency wrote:
Is she really called Ms English?

Are you referring to her? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsai_Ing-wen


Her given name literally means "English language" in Chinese so . . . Ms English is a pretty appropriate nickname.


Considering she has a PhD from LSE, I think Dr English is better :D
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Taiwanese
Profile Joined January 2012
20 Posts
January 14 2012 05:16 GMT
#42
On January 14 2012 10:03 FindMeInKenya wrote:
So...... you did not deny what I said, right?


What was it you said? You reply to my message with brief deviations from what I say without addressing any of the arguments I make whilst I reply to yours substantially with answers to every statement you pose so it would help if you were more specific.

You are exactly right about China calls all the shots now. So your idea of reviving Taiwan's economy is to....... what? Go against the Chinese powerhouse like Chen did? How did that end up? lol.


What exactly do you mean by "go against the Chinese powerhouse like Chen did? How did that end up? lol." I don't get the point you are trying to make here, you need to elaborate. You can't just make a blanket statement and then say lol as if that is any form of meaningful argument.

The situation I see it as is this. China is a big bully that prevents Taiwan from having any meaningful economic prosperity due to its pride in wanting to govern Taiwan. As a result Taiwan is blocked from joining international treaties such as the World Trade Organization, and is thus unable to have free trade agreements with many of the countries in the world. Instead of alleviating this injustice, most of the other countries such as the USA ignore the problem because they do not want to offend China. Instead of being united against this unfairness, Taiwanese are divided between the KMT and DPP as to how to resolve this issue.

About Ma being corrupt, at least give me some sources to prove it.


If you read what I wrote, I said Ma isn't corrupt because he has embezzled public funds. I said his parents embezzled public funds, being politicians from the autocratic KMT era, and that Ma fails to go after those politicians, many of whom are still in Parliament, whilst attacking Chen relentlessly. Recognise one thing - that ALL KMT politicians were corrupt in the early KMT era, yet Ma has not been able to convict any DPP members outside of the ex-President's close circle. The DPP can't embezzle public funds even if they wanted to because there is more accountability now with a Parliament that has the government and the opposition. All the embezzled public funds are in the KMT owned assets.

About your lastly, if Tsai use the same advisors/coucilors as Chen, how would it be any different between Tsai's presidency and Chen's? last time i heard Tsai is trying hard to seperate herself from Chen.


Do you realise that the DPP was made up of activists who were everyday Taiwanese citizens, and not the ruling elite who were all high ranking government officials from Mainland China like the KMT? So let me use an example. Zimbabwe has President Mugabe and an opposition leader. If the opposition leader were to take power for four years - how much can you expect them to do? They have to take over 50 years of KMT appointed government officials and the public service which is all made up of political appointments hostile to the DPP. Furthermore all reforms are blocked by the legislative yuan due to the President having a minority number of seats in the house.

Take my uncle for example. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts in this thread, my family has close ties to the PFP, which is made up of many ex-KMT members. He is a high ranking government official. When he retires, he can put his savings in the bank and earn 18% interest for his retirement. What about the average citizen? Nope, they don't get these state benefits - it's your usual 2% interest. Most people are living day to day without the possibility of saving for retirement, which is why you see many elderly Taiwanese in their 60s, 70s and 80s working on the streets selling rice wrapped in bamboo leaves.

When Chen tried to reform this of course the KMT and PFP blocked the proposal because they don't want to take away the public funded benefits their rich bureaucratic friends have.

What were some of the significant reforms Chen was able to achieve?

He made high school education public so that every child can now attend high school without having to compete for limited spaces. If you didn't get in previously you either had to have extremely hardworking parents who could pay for your education (or take on part time work yourself whilst studying) or you went into the workforce. How was this able to be passed, given that many of the KMT own the private schools that were milking the dollars? Because everyone has children and once the public realised the KMT were blocking this proposal the KMT had no choice but to support it.

Which I might just add - since Taiwan started having democracy for the first time in Taiwanese history the KMT realise that the role of a politician is to serve the people - not that the people serve the politicians. For the first time in history they realise that they need to do shit to make the citizens' lives better otherwise they might get voted out of office and lose their power and ability to control the state's assets and finances.

Another achievement - Chen made it so that home loan interest rates were low for first time buyers. This of course also pissed off the KMT and their politically appointed bank managers who were milking the citizens' incredulous mortgage repayments but again another reform that was too politically dangerous to oppose.

Now can you name me a few reforms that the KMT have achieved to make Taiwan a better place for its middle class and poorer citizens?

I've seen President Ma in power for the last four years and it seems his focus has been to make it easier for his rich business friends to do business better in China. What does this do for the average Taiwan citizen who isn't rich and starting up huge companies? All of the KMT members are used to making money - their goal in politics is to make it more efficient for them to get richer. They are separated from the struggling Taiwanese citizens who go to work each day and struggle to pay their bills. Ma made a trade agreement with China in 2010 - so what did that do? Well, firstly it made it easier for rich Taiwanese businessmen to move their businesses to China for the cheaper labour. Secondly it allowed China to export more of its products to Taiwan, flooding the Taiwanese local industries which can't compete (anything Taiwan does, China can do cheaper due to the cost of labour and to a much larger scale in terms of quantity). So what does this mean for Taiwan? You say: "What happened last time with President Chen lol." I don't even know what you mean. Chen tried to establish Taiwanese independence so that we could sign treaties and be a part of groups like the World Trade Organization so we aren't always blocked from having free trade. Chen tried to make it so that Taiwan had a chance at establishing itself in the international stage like South Korea. But China prevented all of that. And you say: "lol" as if it's OK for China to bully Taiwan because it has the military.

And speaking of the military - aren't we lucky to have democratic elections where we can openly protest and hold the government accountable? In China you do that and you're put to prison. In China, there is no opposition party for you to choose from if you are dissatisfied with the current administration.

And you are right, many prominent DPP members were political prisoners. And guess what, most of them are no longer DPP members and many actually speak out against DPP now a days and take a pan-blue stance (regarding economy and corruption at least). So what does that say about the current state of DPP now?


It says that the times are changing. Do you realise that it was only 1996 that China fired missiles at Taiwan for having an election? Do you realise that China often threatened Taiwan for daring to hold public referendums asking for opinions regarding whether we should have the right to join the WTO, WHO and the UN? And that the USA actively prevented Taiwan from doing so by threatening to cease trade due to pressure from China?

The DPP is actually very united at the moment and it is my hope that they will win this election so that there is a better chance for Taiwan to have significant reforms that will help the poor and average citizen. President Ma has done a lot for rich businessmen and their business ventures into China (and of course, if you are an entrepreneur you better have KMT connections if you want to get established in China, e.g. friends with the government appointed cross-strait officers), but nothing has changed for the majority of the citizens. I'd be interested to know why you decided to support KMT, like what brought you to lean towards the KMT. For me I became a DPP supporter when I started reading up on history and how many of the early DPP members were killed and oppressed for trying to make Taiwan a democracy. I also saw a friend's family ruined because the father died early of tuberculous and how there was no social welfare in place and as a result a solo mother had to raise three children whilst working and one of those three ending up in gangs because he didn't have a decent chance of an educated upbringing. I don't see the KMT ever raising taxes - it would anger their rich friends too much. Most developed countries have a tax rate of 20-30% but Taiwan has 6%. What does the KMT do with this 6%? Not social welfare - it goes towards government benefits for government appointed officials. What does the DPP do? It makes education public and lowers interest rates on bank loans. Got to go, my dad's giving me a lift and I haven't voted yet so I'm off to vote.
Tru_m4n
Profile Joined September 2009
162 Posts
January 14 2012 05:45 GMT
#43
On January 13 2012 16:41 ElMeanYo wrote:
President Ma, the incumbent, and Ms English (yes, that is her name), the DPP candidate


Dude, if you're gonna translate one candidates name to english, then why not both?
President Horse and Ms English. It gets kind of stupid, so why not stick to chinese?

With that said, it'll be interesting to see the results of this election. While I am very interested in taiwanese history and Taiwan in general, I don't have any deep knowledge about the parties. I kind of like both sides, but for different reasons.
"Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk Cafe! He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
silynxer
Profile Joined April 2006
Germany439 Posts
January 14 2012 06:19 GMT
#44
I just wanted to say thank you Taiwanese, this thread has been very interesting and it's awesome to get a local perspective on these kinds of things. Can you elaborate in what sense you are "right-wing"? For example where is your position in relation to Western Europe style democracies (or Scandinavic countries if you want to go there)?
FindMeInKenya
Profile Joined February 2011
United States797 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-14 06:59:47
January 14 2012 06:20 GMT
#45
What exactly do you mean by "go against the Chinese powerhouse like Chen did? How did that end up? lol." I don't get the point you are trying to make here, you need to elaborate. You can't just make a blanket statement and then say lol as if that is any form of meaningful argument.

The situation I see it as is this. China is a big bully that prevents Taiwan from having any meaningful economic prosperity due to its pride in wanting to govern Taiwan. As a result Taiwan is blocked from joining international treaties such as the World Trade Organization, and is thus unable to have free trade agreements with many of the countries in the world. Instead of alleviating this injustice, most of the other countries such as the USA ignore the problem because they do not want to offend China. Instead of being united against this unfairness, Taiwanese are divided between the KMT and DPP as to how to resolve this issue.


Chen, like DPP, denies the 92 concensus, which wrosen the cross straight relationship. As a result, Taiwan not only have limited export opportunities to other nations, we had restricted export ability to China. At least under Ma and KMT, who agrees the existence of 92 concensus, Taiwan have someone to trade with. And look how other nations are now opening possible FTAs with Taiwan.
You are exactly right about China being a big bully, but how are you or the DPP going to change that? How will Tsai improve our economy when she denies 92 concensus?

Do you realise that the DPP was made up of activists who were everyday Taiwanese citizens, and not the ruling elite who were all high ranking government officials from Mainland China like the KMT?


Common knowledge much? What I asked was where are those activists now? Why do past DPP chairpersons and some of their most renowed officials now openly oppose the current DPP, person like Shih Ming-teh (perhaps the most famous political prisoner in Taiwan), Hsu Hsin-liang, Sisy Chen and others?

Take my uncle for example. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts in this thread, my family has close ties to the PFP, which is made up of many ex-KMT members. He is a high ranking government official. When he retires, he can put his savings in the bank and earn 18% interest for his retirement. What about the average citizen? Nope, they don't get these state benefits - it's your usual 2% interest. Most people are living day to day without the possibility of saving for retirement, which is why you see many elderly Taiwanese in their 60s, 70s and 80s working on the streets selling rice wrapped in bamboo leaves.


Likewise, I can also tell you plenty stories about how people suffered under Chen's terms and how Ma has improved upon them.

When Chen tried to reform this of course the KMT and PFP blocked the proposal because they don't want to take away the public funded benefits their rich bureaucratic friends have.

What were some of the significant reforms Chen was able to achieve?

He made high school education public so that every child can now attend high school without having to compete for limited spaces. If you didn't get in previously you either had to have extremely hardworking parents who could pay for your education (or take on part time work yourself whilst studying) or you went into the workforce. How was this able to be passed, given that many of the KMT own the private schools that were milking the dollars? Because everyone has children and once the public realised the KMT were blocking this proposal the KMT had no choice but to support it.


Are you freaking insane? All of the best high schools in Taiwan are public schools, getting into private schools often bring shames into the family. Also, if Chen's education reform is so sucessful, why are there so many education related problems, such as over abundant of trash schools with no students and lowered quality of education, now a day compare to the 90s when there's almost none?

Which I might just add - since Taiwan started having democracy for the first time in Taiwanese history the KMT realise that the role of a politician is to serve the people - not that the people serve the politicians. For the first time in history they realise that they need to do shit to make the citizens' lives better otherwise they might get voted out of office and lose their power and ability to control the state's assets and finances.

Another achievement - Chen made it so that home loan interest rates were low for first time buyers. This of course also pissed off the KMT and their politically appointed bank managers who were milking the citizens' incredulous mortgage repayments but again another reform that was too politically dangerous to oppose.

Now can you name me a few reforms that the KMT have achieved to make Taiwan a better place for its middle class and poorer citizens?


Bull. There was a phrase in Taiwan back in the 70-late 90's about how Taiwanese have so much money that they can't see their feet. Do you think that phrase described Taiwan under Chen's term? So, if the government officials in the old days do jack squat, why is there such a phrase that describe the prosperity in Taiwan, and how did Taiwan became the 4 dragons of Asia? Few reforms my arse.

I've seen President Ma in power for the last four years and it seems his focus has been to make it easier for his rich business friends to do business better in China. What does this do for the average Taiwan citizen who isn't rich and starting up huge companies? All of the KMT members are used to making money - their goal in politics is to make it more efficient for them to get richer. They are separated from the struggling Taiwanese citizens who go to work each day and struggle to pay their bills. Ma made a trade agreement with China in 2010 - so what did that do? Well, firstly it made it easier for rich Taiwanese businessmen to move their businesses to China for the cheaper labour. Secondly it allowed China to export more of its products to Taiwan, flooding the Taiwanese local industries which can't compete (anything Taiwan does, China can do cheaper due to the cost of labour and to a much larger scale in terms of quantity). So what does this mean for Taiwan? You say: "What happened last time with President Chen lol." I don't even know what you mean. Chen tried to establish Taiwanese independence so that we could sign treaties and be a part of groups like the World Trade Organization so we aren't always blocked from having free trade. Chen tried to make it so that Taiwan had a chance at establishing itself in the international stage like South Korea. But China prevented all of that. And you say: "lol" as if it's OK for China to bully Taiwan because it has the military.


So naive. You think China will ever let Taiwan declare independence? You be dead before you even do that. You know this, I know this, and DPP knows this.
True, ECFA made the rich get richer, but it also brings in business and jobs from China to Taiwan, common street vendors to major coporation all benefits from it. If Ma did not sign ECFA, Taiwan will be in worse shape. BTW, cheaper cost also reduce the price of the product, do you think Taiwanese people will buy the same thing when one is $1 and the other is $10? Say if major coporation all stayed and set up factory in Taiwan, i bet you no one will buy their product because it is too expensive. There's is no such thing as self-sufficient nation now a day beside maybe N. Korea. Yeah, let's all be like N. Korea, that is what Chen, Tsai & DPP wants, that is much better than what Taiwan is right now. Isolationism rules!!!

And speaking of the military - aren't we lucky to have democratic elections where we can openly protest and hold the government accountable? In China you do that and you're put to prison. In China, there is no opposition party for you to choose from if you are dissatisfied with the current administration.

It says that the times are changing. Do you realise that it was only 1996 that China fired missiles at Taiwan for having an election? Do you realise that China often threatened Taiwan for daring to hold public referendums asking for opinions regarding whether we should have the right to join the WTO, WHO and the UN? And that the USA actively prevented Taiwan from doing so by threatening to cease trade due to pressure from China?


Another common knowledge, say something we don't know. Point is, what are you and the DPP going to do about it? Don't be just all talks and no actions.

The DPP is actually very united at the moment and it is my hope that they will win this election so that there is a better chance for Taiwan to have significant reforms that will help the poor and average citizen. President Ma has done a lot for rich businessmen and their business ventures into China (and of course, if you are an entrepreneur you better have KMT connections if you want to get established in China, e.g. friends with the government appointed cross-strait officers), but nothing has changed for the majority of the citizens. I'd be interested to know why you decided to support KMT, like what brought you to lean towards the KMT. For me I became a DPP supporter when I started reading up on history and how many of the early DPP members were killed and oppressed for trying to make Taiwan a democracy. I also saw a friend's family ruined because the father died early of tuberculous and how there was no social welfare in place and as a result a solo mother had to raise three children whilst working and one of those three ending up in gangs because he didn't have a decent chance of an educated upbringing. I don't see the KMT ever raising taxes - it would anger their rich friends too much. Most developed countries have a tax rate of 20-30% but Taiwan has 6%. What does the KMT do with this 6%? Not social welfare - it goes towards government benefits for government appointed officials. What does the DPP do? It makes education public and lowers interest rates on bank loans. Got to go, my dad's giving me a lift and I haven't voted yet so I'm off to vote.


DPP united? Where were the 4 prominent figures of DPP? Where were vice president Lu? Where were all the past giants of DPP during this time?
Voting for Taiwan's next president is like being stuck between a rock and a hard place. You vote for the guy who will not doom Taiwan immediately, the less rotten of the 2. That, imho, is Ma.
furymonkey
Profile Joined December 2008
New Zealand1587 Posts
January 14 2012 06:45 GMT
#46
People from Taiwan are hard out into politics, and opinions are often polarized. So take everything you read here as grain of salt. Even the rich information from the poster "Taiwanese" can comes in multiple version, each with equivalent reasoning.
Leenock the Punisher
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
January 14 2012 06:47 GMT
#47
On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote:
I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States.

Thanks for your opinion DrTyrant. =_=
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
WangMeishter
Profile Joined October 2011
Australia1 Post
January 14 2012 07:08 GMT
#48
On January 14 2012 14:16 Taiwanese wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2012 10:03 FindMeInKenya wrote:
So...... you did not deny what I said, right?


What was it you said? You reply to my message with brief deviations from what I say without addressing any of the arguments I make whilst I reply to yours substantially with answers to every statement you pose so it would help if you were more specific.

Show nested quote +
You are exactly right about China calls all the shots now. So your idea of reviving Taiwan's economy is to....... what? Go against the Chinese powerhouse like Chen did? How did that end up? lol.


What exactly do you mean by "go against the Chinese powerhouse like Chen did? How did that end up? lol." I don't get the point you are trying to make here, you need to elaborate. You can't just make a blanket statement and then say lol as if that is any form of meaningful argument.

The situation I see it as is this. China is a big bully that prevents Taiwan from having any meaningful economic prosperity due to its pride in wanting to govern Taiwan. As a result Taiwan is blocked from joining international treaties such as the World Trade Organization, and is thus unable to have free trade agreements with many of the countries in the world. Instead of alleviating this injustice, most of the other countries such as the USA ignore the problem because they do not want to offend China. Instead of being united against this unfairness, Taiwanese are divided between the KMT and DPP as to how to resolve this issue.

Show nested quote +
About Ma being corrupt, at least give me some sources to prove it.


If you read what I wrote, I said Ma isn't corrupt because he has embezzled public funds. I said his parents embezzled public funds, being politicians from the autocratic KMT era, and that Ma fails to go after those politicians, many of whom are still in Parliament, whilst attacking Chen relentlessly. Recognise one thing - that ALL KMT politicians were corrupt in the early KMT era, yet Ma has not been able to convict any DPP members outside of the ex-President's close circle. The DPP can't embezzle public funds even if they wanted to because there is more accountability now with a Parliament that has the government and the opposition. All the embezzled public funds are in the KMT owned assets.

Show nested quote +
About your lastly, if Tsai use the same advisors/coucilors as Chen, how would it be any different between Tsai's presidency and Chen's? last time i heard Tsai is trying hard to seperate herself from Chen.


Do you realise that the DPP was made up of activists who were everyday Taiwanese citizens, and not the ruling elite who were all high ranking government officials from Mainland China like the KMT? So let me use an example. Zimbabwe has President Mugabe and an opposition leader. If the opposition leader were to take power for four years - how much can you expect them to do? They have to take over 50 years of KMT appointed government officials and the public service which is all made up of political appointments hostile to the DPP. Furthermore all reforms are blocked by the legislative yuan due to the President having a minority number of seats in the house.

Take my uncle for example. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts in this thread, my family has close ties to the PFP, which is made up of many ex-KMT members. He is a high ranking government official. When he retires, he can put his savings in the bank and earn 18% interest for his retirement. What about the average citizen? Nope, they don't get these state benefits - it's your usual 2% interest. Most people are living day to day without the possibility of saving for retirement, which is why you see many elderly Taiwanese in their 60s, 70s and 80s working on the streets selling rice wrapped in bamboo leaves.

When Chen tried to reform this of course the KMT and PFP blocked the proposal because they don't want to take away the public funded benefits their rich bureaucratic friends have.

What were some of the significant reforms Chen was able to achieve?

He made high school education public so that every child can now attend high school without having to compete for limited spaces. If you didn't get in previously you either had to have extremely hardworking parents who could pay for your education (or take on part time work yourself whilst studying) or you went into the workforce. How was this able to be passed, given that many of the KMT own the private schools that were milking the dollars? Because everyone has children and once the public realised the KMT were blocking this proposal the KMT had no choice but to support it.

Which I might just add - since Taiwan started having democracy for the first time in Taiwanese history the KMT realise that the role of a politician is to serve the people - not that the people serve the politicians. For the first time in history they realise that they need to do shit to make the citizens' lives better otherwise they might get voted out of office and lose their power and ability to control the state's assets and finances.

Another achievement - Chen made it so that home loan interest rates were low for first time buyers. This of course also pissed off the KMT and their politically appointed bank managers who were milking the citizens' incredulous mortgage repayments but again another reform that was too politically dangerous to oppose.

Now can you name me a few reforms that the KMT have achieved to make Taiwan a better place for its middle class and poorer citizens?

I've seen President Ma in power for the last four years and it seems his focus has been to make it easier for his rich business friends to do business better in China. What does this do for the average Taiwan citizen who isn't rich and starting up huge companies? All of the KMT members are used to making money - their goal in politics is to make it more efficient for them to get richer. They are separated from the struggling Taiwanese citizens who go to work each day and struggle to pay their bills. Ma made a trade agreement with China in 2010 - so what did that do? Well, firstly it made it easier for rich Taiwanese businessmen to move their businesses to China for the cheaper labour. Secondly it allowed China to export more of its products to Taiwan, flooding the Taiwanese local industries which can't compete (anything Taiwan does, China can do cheaper due to the cost of labour and to a much larger scale in terms of quantity). So what does this mean for Taiwan? You say: "What happened last time with President Chen lol." I don't even know what you mean. Chen tried to establish Taiwanese independence so that we could sign treaties and be a part of groups like the World Trade Organization so we aren't always blocked from having free trade. Chen tried to make it so that Taiwan had a chance at establishing itself in the international stage like South Korea. But China prevented all of that. And you say: "lol" as if it's OK for China to bully Taiwan because it has the military.

And speaking of the military - aren't we lucky to have democratic elections where we can openly protest and hold the government accountable? In China you do that and you're put to prison. In China, there is no opposition party for you to choose from if you are dissatisfied with the current administration.

Show nested quote +
And you are right, many prominent DPP members were political prisoners. And guess what, most of them are no longer DPP members and many actually speak out against DPP now a days and take a pan-blue stance (regarding economy and corruption at least). So what does that say about the current state of DPP now?


It says that the times are changing. Do you realise that it was only 1996 that China fired missiles at Taiwan for having an election? Do you realise that China often threatened Taiwan for daring to hold public referendums asking for opinions regarding whether we should have the right to join the WTO, WHO and the UN? And that the USA actively prevented Taiwan from doing so by threatening to cease trade due to pressure from China?

The DPP is actually very united at the moment and it is my hope that they will win this election so that there is a better chance for Taiwan to have significant reforms that will help the poor and average citizen. President Ma has done a lot for rich businessmen and their business ventures into China (and of course, if you are an entrepreneur you better have KMT connections if you want to get established in China, e.g. friends with the government appointed cross-strait officers), but nothing has changed for the majority of the citizens. I'd be interested to know why you decided to support KMT, like what brought you to lean towards the KMT. For me I became a DPP supporter when I started reading up on history and how many of the early DPP members were killed and oppressed for trying to make Taiwan a democracy. I also saw a friend's family ruined because the father died early of tuberculous and how there was no social welfare in place and as a result a solo mother had to raise three children whilst working and one of those three ending up in gangs because he didn't have a decent chance of an educated upbringing. I don't see the KMT ever raising taxes - it would anger their rich friends too much. Most developed countries have a tax rate of 20-30% but Taiwan has 6%. What does the KMT do with this 6%? Not social welfare - it goes towards government benefits for government appointed officials. What does the DPP do? It makes education public and lowers interest rates on bank loans. Got to go, my dad's giving me a lift and I haven't voted yet so I'm off to vote.


Just want to thank you for speaking for all of us <3
Woo
ArvickHero
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
10387 Posts
January 14 2012 07:12 GMT
#49
I was listening about this on NPR earlier today when I was driving all over the fuckin place, was interesting to hear the parallels and comparisons to the upcoming US general election
Writerptrk
stfn
Profile Joined December 2010
United States53 Posts
January 14 2012 07:17 GMT
#50
Surprised nobody mentioned the heavy underworld ties connected to the Taiwanese political parties as well as allowing such organizations to actively operate with no penalty under law.
broz0rs
Profile Joined July 2008
United States2294 Posts
January 14 2012 10:14 GMT
#51
President Ma and KMT winning early. Doesn't look good for DPP.
Taiwanese
Profile Joined January 2012
20 Posts
January 14 2012 10:17 GMT
#52
On January 14 2012 15:20 FindMeInKenya wrote:
Likewise, I can also tell you plenty stories about how people suffered under Chen's terms and how Ma has improved upon them.


Then do it? The purpose of my story was to show that Taiwan has no social welfare system.

Are you freaking insane? All of the best high schools in Taiwan are public schools, getting into private schools often bring shames into the family. Also, if Chen's education reform is so sucessful, why are there so many education related problems, such as over abundant of trash schools with no students and lowered quality of education, now a day compare to the 90s when there's almost none?


WTF? Are you even reading what I'm writing? Chen's reform was successful in that every kid in Taiwan can now attend public high schools and not have to pay for private. This is something the KMT wanted to block! So you are effectively damning the KMT's position of not wanting to allow every child to be able to attend a public high school.

True, ECFA made the rich get richer, but it also brings in business and jobs from China to Taiwan, common street vendors to major coporation all benefits from it. If Ma did not sign ECFA, Taiwan will be in worse shape. BTW, cheaper cost also reduce the price of the product, do you think Taiwanese people will buy the same thing when one is $1 and the other is $10? Say if major coporation all stayed and set up factory in Taiwan, i bet you no one will buy their product because it is too expensive. There's is no such thing as self-sufficient nation now a day beside maybe N. Korea. Yeah, let's all be like N. Korea, that is what Chen, Tsai & DPP wants, that is much better than what Taiwan is right now. Isolationism rules!!!


Go study some economics and re-read what I actually wrote instead of coming up with random strawmen arguments. Taiwan is being crowded out by China because the money isn't going back into the Taiwanese economy - it doesn't bring businesses and jobs from China to Taiwan - it moves them from Taiwan to China. Where do the jobs come from if the corporations are moving over to China, where it is cheaper to venture capital?

DPP united? Where were the 4 prominent figures of DPP? Where were vice president Lu? Where were all the past giants of DPP during this time?


Again, I have no idea WTF you're talking about. I was at the DPP election rally last night and they were all there, including Annette Lu, all giving speeches supporting English. What's your point?

Anyway - an update - President Ma has won with 52% to English's 44%. I don't foresee the poor getting off the streets in Taipei anytime soon.
haduken
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Australia8267 Posts
January 14 2012 10:17 GMT
#53
Meh, from this thread all I got is that Taiwan is really really fucked.

Why don't you guys just accept it and join Mainland, you will probably get lots of economic concession and have some sort of 50 or 100 years no touch rule like Hong Kong did.

Selling out isn't bad when you look @ it like that.
Rillanon.au
FindMeInKenya
Profile Joined February 2011
United States797 Posts
January 14 2012 10:43 GMT
#54
Guess the people have spoken. DPP must be so great that they lost this bad even with Soong helping them.
Shiragaku
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong4308 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-14 11:02:19
January 14 2012 10:54 GMT
#55
Bleh...DPP losing again. What a pity.

On January 14 2012 19:17 haduken wrote:
Meh, from this thread all I got is that Taiwan is really really fucked.

Why don't you guys just accept it and join Mainland, you will probably get lots of economic concession and have some sort of 50 or 100 years no touch rule like Hong Kong did.

Selling out isn't bad when you look @ it like that.

No...just no...
Though I am heavily against the KMT, the thing we both have in common is that we are against unification with China.
broz0rs
Profile Joined July 2008
United States2294 Posts
January 14 2012 11:01 GMT
#56
this is a live stream of the DPP support rally

DPP support rally

+ Show Spoiler +
looks absolutely dead
ShadeR
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7535 Posts
January 14 2012 11:12 GMT
#57
On January 14 2012 16:17 stfn wrote:
Surprised nobody mentioned the heavy underworld ties connected to the Taiwanese political parties as well as allowing such organizations to actively operate with no penalty under law.

I figured that was obvious from the brawls. Being that why else would these brawls happen if not because some of the candidates are high ranking mobsters.
Shiragaku
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong4308 Posts
January 14 2012 11:35 GMT
#58
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=zh-CN&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http://www.cec.gov.tw/zh_TW/P1/n000000000000000.html&act=url
Shiragaku
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong4308 Posts
January 14 2012 11:55 GMT
#59
On January 14 2012 20:12 ShadeR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2012 16:17 stfn wrote:
Surprised nobody mentioned the heavy underworld ties connected to the Taiwanese political parties as well as allowing such organizations to actively operate with no penalty under law.

I figured that was obvious from the brawls. Being that why else would these brawls happen if not because some of the candidates are high ranking mobsters.

And we cannot forget that Taiwan also had some martial law used in the past
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident
emucxg
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Finland4559 Posts
January 14 2012 12:46 GMT
#60
haha, china must be very happy now <3
furymonkey
Profile Joined December 2008
New Zealand1587 Posts
January 14 2012 12:51 GMT
#61
On January 14 2012 21:46 emucxg wrote:
haha, china must be very happy now <3


So is US, and majority of Taiwanese.
Leenock the Punisher
haduken
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Australia8267 Posts
January 14 2012 13:10 GMT
#62
On January 14 2012 19:54 Shiragaku wrote:
Bleh...DPP losing again. What a pity.

Show nested quote +
On January 14 2012 19:17 haduken wrote:
Meh, from this thread all I got is that Taiwan is really really fucked.

Why don't you guys just accept it and join Mainland, you will probably get lots of economic concession and have some sort of 50 or 100 years no touch rule like Hong Kong did.

Selling out isn't bad when you look @ it like that.

No...just no...
Though I am heavily against the KMT, the thing we both have in common is that we are against unification with China.


All I'm saying is that what ever it is that Taiwan is doing is obviously not working. You should just just accept it first and sign some deal that guarantee your safety and development for the next 100 years, who knows what would happen to China in that time, if people revolt against CCP then you can have your shot at declaring independence.
Rillanon.au
harties
Profile Joined August 2010
South Africa4 Posts
January 14 2012 13:11 GMT
#63
On January 14 2012 16:17 stfn wrote:
Surprised nobody mentioned the heavy underworld ties connected to the Taiwanese political parties as well as allowing such organizations to actively operate with no penalty under law.


I would like to read more about this
skop hom fluffy
emucxg
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Finland4559 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-14 13:12:57
January 14 2012 13:12 GMT
#64
On January 14 2012 22:10 haduken wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2012 19:54 Shiragaku wrote:
Bleh...DPP losing again. What a pity.

On January 14 2012 19:17 haduken wrote:
Meh, from this thread all I got is that Taiwan is really really fucked.

Why don't you guys just accept it and join Mainland, you will probably get lots of economic concession and have some sort of 50 or 100 years no touch rule like Hong Kong did.

Selling out isn't bad when you look @ it like that.

No...just no...
Though I am heavily against the KMT, the thing we both have in common is that we are against unification with China.


All I'm saying is that what ever it is that Taiwan is doing is obviously not working. You should just just accept it first and sign some deal that guarantee your safety and development for the next 100 years, who knows what would happen to China in that time, if people revolt against CCP then you can have your shot at declaring independence.

They signed 九二共識 though, but already got ignored by DPP
bubblegumbo
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Taiwan1296 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-14 14:15:53
January 14 2012 14:13 GMT
#65
I laughed when I saw how the majority of the posters living in democratic countries with freedom of speech actively cheering for the KMT's victory and encouraging Taiwan to formally unify with China. Hello??

Must be nice being able to express political opinions of your own country without going to jail or disappearing suddenly without warning! Here's a hint: you can't do that in China, or in Taiwan 30years ago under the KMT.

Also why sell our freedom when only the rich industrialists will profit ? Normal people are literally fucked, new university graduates here barely make 1k US$ a month, while the price of property continue rise and is already unaffordable to most married couples, and the nation has one of the the worst birth rate quota in the world because they just cannot afford to raise kids.

On January 14 2012 01:39 DrTyrant wrote:
I support the Kuomintang, they seem to be the more right-wing party of the bunch. Also they've ruled the Republic of China for nearly a hundred years, so they know what they are doing. Not to mention the KMT support closer relations with my own country, the United States.


I don't know where you learn your history lessons from buddy, the KMT leadership flipped out when Carter chose People's Republic of China over ROC, and pull out of the U.N even though he was not required to do so, but he did so out of anger He was also the descendant of the generalissimo of the single party government known as the KMT, great example of democracy there. It took a good amount of political activism from numerous university students and intellectuals, resulting in political exiles, jailing and even deaths, before the KMT realized that changes are needed or social chaos would ensue. It was similar to South Africa's freedom movement in that regard.

Show me why the KMT is closer more pro-USA when they are literally strengthening economic ties with China(ECFA) while last week, Obama announced that the US forces will be strengthen in the Pacific region, specifically due to China's growing military power.


The DPP will not do anything as rash as declaring for independence, otherwise they would've done it 12 years ago at their peak. Nobody wants war. It boogles me that people are voting AWAY their freedom of political choice(especially that of subsequent generations), since that is what's happening slowly with the KMT continuing their rule. Perhaps they hate using Google that much?

The KMT was literally like the Communist party in their past, except they lost the war and fled to Taiwan. They both had totalitarian rulership, widespread propaganda, and both wanted to unify China as one entity, after they killed off the other of course . It's ironic that both they and China are willing to make out now just because of financial gains... of a few selected individuals.
"I honestly think that whoever invented toilet paper is a genius. For man to survive, they need toilet paper!"- Nal_rA
ShadeR
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7535 Posts
January 14 2012 14:56 GMT
#66
GG KMT
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
January 14 2012 15:10 GMT
#67
ALL HAIL THE KMT

国民党万岁
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
stork4ever
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1036 Posts
January 14 2012 15:45 GMT
#68
Good for Taiwan. KMT is the more conservative, business friendly party (aka republicans) and DPP PROBABLY would've been better for the little people but regardless we've come a long way from the real democracy in 1996 (first election for the head of state) and even that was marred by Chinese missiles flying around causing stork4ever's family to call it in and hightail it to the US of A. So whether you want to go by 1996 or 2000 as when democracy began in Taiwan, they've come a long way.

I no longer identify myself as taiwanese as I've lived most of my conscious life in the US but with all the "democracy" that is trying to grow throughout the world, its good to see a tiny island nation with very little friends (random islands in the pacific??) continue to prosper. Sure the economy is not rolling, but many countries is currently in economic crisis? The health care is very good (universal baby!) and for the most part Taiwan is progressing. There is no censor of the internet, they get the latest gadgets (well they make them so duh), they hold some of the last remnants of Chinese culture in their museums, and some of the friendliest people you will ever meet. All religion is tolerated as are alternative lifestyles (no active persecution), noone is going to jail for speaking out (at least that we know of!) against the government, and there are no permits telling you where you can live and work.

The fights, demonstrations, and otherwise hilarious (to us) public displays reflects people's passions and showing constituents they will literally fight for you as they claim in their speeches. People point out ex Prez Chen's corruption and jailtime, that my friends is not failure but a free society where noone if dumb enough to get caught will be let off. Corruption is even here in the US, but I can't think of a high ranking politician going to jail for it, no matter what taxes they avoided and what benefits they gotten from companies that they fight for.

For those that are unaware, go to your local asian food store and buy a taiwanese peach. Eat it and you will love Taiwan as well. Sadly Taiwanese food is all that remains of my passion for my homeland (AMURICA!!!) but it is a good "country" and a good underdog to root for.
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
January 14 2012 15:57 GMT
#69
People get too worked up over Taiwan, they aren't going to rejoin China unless China's government changes or Taiwan gives up its military in exchange for a guarantee of internal autonomy, some kind of Hong Kong situation. Neither one is going to happen soon.

China doesn't want to fight a war with the US over Taiwan right on its doorstep. China's military and Taiwan itself would get wrecked in a war neither side wants that.

The KMT wouldn't mind Taiwan becoming more authoritarian and rejoined with China as long as the CCP gives them a favored place in the new Taiwan political structure. Chiang would roll in his grave but the KMT these days doesn't care.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
Celadan
Profile Joined September 2010
Norway471 Posts
January 14 2012 16:04 GMT
#70
Democracy is flawed, so I wouldn't vote...
спеціальна Тактика
T0fuuu
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Australia2275 Posts
January 14 2012 16:22 GMT
#71
Needs more fake assasinations and brawling.
FinestHour
Profile Joined August 2010
United States18466 Posts
January 14 2012 21:22 GMT
#72
Parents are very pleased over the GuoMingDang victory.
thug life.                                                       MVP/ex-
Taiwanese
Profile Joined January 2012
20 Posts
January 15 2012 02:47 GMT
#73
On January 15 2012 01:22 T0fuuu wrote:
Needs more fake assasinations and brawling.


And it's idiots like you who think a shot to the body can be faked that Taiwan needs less of.
RezChi
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2368 Posts
January 15 2012 03:50 GMT
#74
On January 15 2012 11:47 Taiwanese wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2012 01:22 T0fuuu wrote:
Needs more fake assasinations and brawling.


And it's idiots like you who think a shot to the body can be faked that Taiwan needs less of.

I think you're just butthurt that DPP lost.


On January 15 2012 00:10 Caller wrote:
ALL HAIL THE KMT

国民党万岁

Good try xD But Taiwan uses traditional huehuehue
ZeaL.
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States5955 Posts
January 15 2012 04:17 GMT
#75
Hmm this will make my next trip to the motherland more interesting...
My parents lean more KMT while my grandpa is super DPP, to the point that he actually broke down and cried when my parents brought up chen shui bian being corrupt (we don't bring up politics much anymore)
Personally I don't know enough about either of the two parties to have an opinion about the results but either way I hope Taiwan continues to build economic ties with China without reunification.
divinesage
Profile Joined April 2010
Singapore649 Posts
January 15 2012 04:34 GMT
#76
Didn't the entire DPP and KMT issue start with the 1992 One China policy?

From the economic viewpoint, Ma is doing an excellent job at that, but compromising Taiwan's sovereignity does seem a little too much (although he claims otherwise).

Don't know much about Tsai though, but DPP does have a bad name to the CCP though, so much so that they don't want the DPP in power.
chennis
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Taiwan227 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-15 05:05:11
January 15 2012 05:03 GMT
#77
Ma is not compromising Taiwan's sovereignity, despite claims by many DPP supporters. The fact is that NO ONE in taiwan wants to be reunified with China, regardless of their political preferences.

As for the whole Chen assassination thing...its pretty controversial and there's really no need for any name calling or personal attacks. Now if I remembered correctly..at the time...
- Chen was pretty much losing in every poll conducted by all the major TV stations, despite their political preferences, so KMT had less to gain from the shooting.
- The shooter has to be extremely skilled, definitely a professional.
- The shooter did not hit the head or any other any vital organs.

The following is still true today:
- DPP(or maybe just Chen, but he's certainly done it while running for presidency) has a history of pinning things on the KMT, like the car accident involving Chen's wife Wu. (driver was actually supporter of DPP).
- Local radio/TV station in southern Taiwan, which is "deep green", otherwise known as hardcore DPP supports, actually pretty often talk about assassinating Ma

I am not here to sway anyone's opinion in the matter, but do I think that the whole assassination thing was fake? Yea, definitely. Now keep in mind, while I have spent most of my childhood in northern Taiwan, I have relatives in TaiNan who are hardcore DPP supporters and I do visit them pretty often, so it's not like i am completely oblivious to whats going on there.
Taiwanese
Profile Joined January 2012
20 Posts
January 15 2012 05:13 GMT
#78
On January 15 2012 14:03 chennis wrote:
Ma is not compromising Taiwan's sovereignity, despite claims by many DPP supporters. The fact is that NO ONE in taiwan wants to be reunified with China, regardless of their political preferences.

As for the whole Chen assassination thing...its pretty controversial and there's really no need for any name calling or personal attacks. Now if I remembered correctly..at the time...
- Chen was pretty much losing in every poll conducted by all the major TV stations, despite their political preferences, so KMT had less to gain from the shooting.
- The shooter has to be extremely skilled, definitely a professional.
- The shooter did not hit the head or any other any vital organs.

The following is still true today:
- DPP(or maybe just Chen, but he's certainly done it while running for presidency) has a history of pinning things on the KMT, like the car accident involving Chen's wife Wu. (driver was actually supporter of DPP).
- Local radio/TV station in southern Taiwan, which is "deep green", otherwise known as hardcore DPP supports, actually pretty often talk about assassinating Ma

I am not here to sway anyone's opinion in the matter, but do I think that the whole assassination thing was fake? Yea, definitely. Now keep in mind, while I have spent most of my childhood in northern Taiwan, I have relatives in TaiNan who are hardcore DPP supporters and I do visit them pretty often, so it's not like i am completely oblivious to whats going on there.


WTF? So basically you're saying: "Oh hey, I'm the President but I might lose the election. I trust you, professional shooter, to shoot me in the stomach while I'm on a moving vehicle so I can win the election. Yay, it worked?"

FFS. As for your other claims, WTF are you talking about? The driver was never caught so how the fuck do you know they're a DPP supporter? Also the KMT have a huge historic record of assassinations, 228 incident, Kaoushiong incident, etc. So there's a precedent for murdering on their side. And WTF are you talking about the local radio and TV stations talking about assassinating the President - what a load of bullshit - do you have any proof of this? It's people like you who make up ridiculously bullshit claims and propaganda that contribute to ignorance.
chennis
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Taiwan227 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-15 05:31:57
January 15 2012 05:27 GMT
#79
I have PERSONALLY listened to the said radio stations as well as MANY OTHER PEOPLE, like I said, they are local so maybe you don't see them, but I did. So i don't see how I can prove this. I don't need you to believe me, that's fine.

And hey, guess what? Chen was not the president at the time, he was running FOR presidency. So how is this whole assassination thing farfetched? he gambled, and it worked. Like I said, KMT had little to nothing to gain from this assassination, that's why I did not buy it.

Oh and
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/張榮財
http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/jw!yK_QQRCBBALKGMhxUKop9vF0/article?mid=2434&prev=2546&next=2427&l=f&fid=22
+ a bunch of other articles, you can just simply google his name.

So hey look, guess who's ignorant and making up "bullshit claims" now?

Also, election is over, so while people are disappointed, maybe we can all hope that Ma does a good job for the next 4 years. Listening to ideas by other parties was a good start, lets hope he can keep it up.

You can refute my statements all you want, like I said, I am not here to sway your opinions, so I am just going to leave it at that.
Taiwanese
Profile Joined January 2012
20 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-15 06:11:03
January 15 2012 06:09 GMT
#80
On January 15 2012 14:27 chennis wrote:
I have PERSONALLY listened to the said radio stations as well as MANY OTHER PEOPLE, like I said, they are local so maybe you don't see them, but I did. So i don't see how I can prove this. I don't need you to believe me, that's fine.

And hey, guess what? Chen was not the president at the time, he was running FOR presidency. So how is this whole assassination thing farfetched? he gambled, and it worked. Like I said, KMT had little to nothing to gain from this assassination, that's why I did not buy it.

Oh and
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/張榮財
http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/jw!yK_QQRCBBALKGMhxUKop9vF0/article?mid=2434&prev=2546&next=2427&l=f&fid=22
+ a bunch of other articles, you can just simply google his name.

So hey look, guess who's ignorant and making up "bullshit claims" now?

Also, election is over, so while people are disappointed, maybe we can all hope that Ma does a good job for the next 4 years. Listening to ideas by other parties was a good start, lets hope he can keep it up.

You can refute my statements all you want, like I said, I am not here to sway your opinions, so I am just going to leave it at that.


Easy to refute - you say he wasn't president at the time, and that he was running for presidency. You're wrong right there, he was president at the time, running for re-election. So you don't know your facts. The fact that you think a TV station or radio station can get away with advocating for the murdering of a president is retarded and should easily be provable by any court threats for incitement of violence etc. But of course you're just pulling shit out of your ass.

Edit: Just reading those links now, BRB.
Supamang
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2298 Posts
January 15 2012 06:18 GMT
#81
My dad is very biased against President Ma and the KMT. I honestly don't know very much about Taiwanese politics, but can anyone tell me if the past term with Ma was any good?
chennis
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Taiwan227 Posts
January 15 2012 06:33 GMT
#82
On January 15 2012 15:09 Taiwanese wrote:

Easy to refute - you say he wasn't president at the time, and that he was running for presidency. You're wrong right there, he was president at the time, running for re-election. So you don't know your facts. The fact that you think a TV station or radio station can get away with advocating for the murdering of a president is retarded and should easily be provable by any court threats for incitement of violence etc. But of course you're just pulling shit out of your ass.


You are right, he was re-running, my bad. But like i said, they had nothing to gain from that assassination, so its not like i am pulling shit out of my ass now am I, he was actually down in polls before that whole fiasco happened.

As for the radio station (my bad it was radio, wasn't TV so I apologize), Yes they are monitored, but its not like they said it super obvious like "hey lets all go kill Ma!" People call in to express their views, and words such as "assassinating" or "beat him up" show up in their discussion about Ma. Now I don't know how the hosts react, but of course I would assume they either remain quiet or stops them. The point remains, however, people have discussed about threatening Ma.
furymonkey
Profile Joined December 2008
New Zealand1587 Posts
January 15 2012 06:35 GMT
#83
On January 15 2012 15:09 Taiwanese wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2012 14:27 chennis wrote:
I have PERSONALLY listened to the said radio stations as well as MANY OTHER PEOPLE, like I said, they are local so maybe you don't see them, but I did. So i don't see how I can prove this. I don't need you to believe me, that's fine.

And hey, guess what? Chen was not the president at the time, he was running FOR presidency. So how is this whole assassination thing farfetched? he gambled, and it worked. Like I said, KMT had little to nothing to gain from this assassination, that's why I did not buy it.

Oh and
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/張榮財
http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/jw!yK_QQRCBBALKGMhxUKop9vF0/article?mid=2434&prev=2546&next=2427&l=f&fid=22
+ a bunch of other articles, you can just simply google his name.

So hey look, guess who's ignorant and making up "bullshit claims" now?

Also, election is over, so while people are disappointed, maybe we can all hope that Ma does a good job for the next 4 years. Listening to ideas by other parties was a good start, lets hope he can keep it up.

You can refute my statements all you want, like I said, I am not here to sway your opinions, so I am just going to leave it at that.


Easy to refute - you say he wasn't president at the time, and that he was running for presidency. You're wrong right there, he was president at the time, running for re-election. So you don't know your facts. The fact that you think a TV station or radio station can get away with advocating for the murdering of a president is retarded and should easily be provable by any court threats for incitement of violence etc. But of course you're just pulling shit out of your ass.


Maybe cause you're all sheltered and all, it's called pirate radio, these stations are often illegal first place, and authority do keep an eye on them / cracking down time to time, there are news about it that can be easily found.

Assassination threat happens regularly in any country for any political reasons, and when you have bunch of super DDP supporters all in one place raging, people tend to slip up.
Leenock the Punisher
Taiwanese
Profile Joined January 2012
20 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-15 14:27:29
January 15 2012 14:24 GMT
#84
NVM, the election is over.
Taiwanese
Profile Joined January 2012
20 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-15 14:37:36
January 15 2012 14:28 GMT
#85
By the way - what were your votes?

I voted:

President - DPP.
Local candidate - DPP.
Party vote - TSU (three representatives - fuck yeah).
Funnytoss
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Taiwan1471 Posts
January 15 2012 15:08 GMT
#86
Ineligible to vote since I'm not actually a Taiwanese citizen yet. But if I could, it would have been:

President - KMT
Local candidate - no preference, though the DPP candidate had "Child is future" on his sign which I thought was really dumb
Party vote - DPP

I felt Ma could do a better job as President than Tsai at this current moment, the KMT needs an effective counterweight in the legislature, hence the Party vote. Most of my stances lean green, particularly relating to the environment and sovereignty, but then I started to take a different perspective on things.

Namely, cross-strait tensions exist pretty much because the Chinese government behaves like an asshole. It's not "Chen MADE us to it" or "Tsai would provoke us". China chooses how it will react to things, it's a policy to act as a dick to Taiwan when it's able to, most noticeably in the realm of the Olympics. (arms sales are understandable, everyone complains about those as long as they're directed against you)

As such, cross-strait tensions really aren't up to Taiwan. Taiwan's not the one pointing thousands of missiles across the straight. Nor is Taiwan the one that blocks another sovereign nation from entering international institutions. If Tsai getting elected would change things then I would probably vote for her, but it won't, because CHINA decides if it's going to be a dick. As such, the cross-strait issue is pretty much a non-issue for me, since there's strong enough support for de facto independence in Taiwan that Ma couldn't really sell out Taiwan completely even if he wanted to.
AIV_Funnytoss and sGs.Funnytoss on iCCup
Supamang
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2298 Posts
January 30 2012 05:55 GMT
#87
On January 14 2012 19:43 FindMeInKenya wrote:
Guess the people have spoken. DPP must be so great that they lost this bad even with Soong helping them.

Speaking from an American standpoint, I gotta say a lot of your opinions seem to be a little on the cowardly/sell-out side. America fought for its independence against a much stronger opponent and look where we are now. I'm not saying Taiwan should literally go to war with China, but considering the history of the country I live in its kind of sad to see someone vote for the loss of his own country's sovereignty.

Also I'm more inclined to side with Taiwanese because your responses have less and less substance with more and more condescension each time the other guy responds to you. Stick to the facts. You also seem to argue for his points sometimes so evidently you aren't reading his posts well enough to give a good response instead of just knee-jerk reactions.

Finally, this final post I've quoted is just petty and childish.
ddrddrddrddr
Profile Joined August 2010
1344 Posts
January 30 2012 06:03 GMT
#88
On January 30 2012 14:55 Supamang wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2012 19:43 FindMeInKenya wrote:
Guess the people have spoken. DPP must be so great that they lost this bad even with Soong helping them.

Speaking from an American standpoint, I gotta say a lot of your opinions seem to be a little on the cowardly/sell-out side. America fought for its independence against a much stronger opponent and look where we are now. I'm not saying Taiwan should literally go to war with China, but considering the history of the country I live in its kind of sad to see someone vote for the loss of his own country's sovereignty.

Also I'm more inclined to side with Taiwanese because your responses have less and less substance with more and more condescension each time the other guy responds to you. Stick to the facts. You also seem to argue for his points sometimes so evidently you aren't reading his posts well enough to give a good response instead of just knee-jerk reactions.

Finally, this final post I've quoted is just petty and childish.

Yes, because 18th century England fighting Americans who received aid from the French, Dutch, and Spanish, using boats and rifle formations and modern warfare using ballistic missiles and armored vehicles are pretty much the same thing. America also wouldn't aid in the fighting explicitly, since it could result in nuclear weapon usage.
Supamang
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2298 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-30 07:07:26
January 30 2012 06:45 GMT
#89
On January 30 2012 15:03 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2012 14:55 Supamang wrote:
On January 14 2012 19:43 FindMeInKenya wrote:
Guess the people have spoken. DPP must be so great that they lost this bad even with Soong helping them.

Speaking from an American standpoint, I gotta say a lot of your opinions seem to be a little on the cowardly/sell-out side. America fought for its independence against a much stronger opponent and look where we are now. I'm not saying Taiwan should literally go to war with China, but considering the history of the country I live in its kind of sad to see someone vote for the loss of his own country's sovereignty.

Also I'm more inclined to side with Taiwanese because your responses have less and less substance with more and more condescension each time the other guy responds to you. Stick to the facts. You also seem to argue for his points sometimes so evidently you aren't reading his posts well enough to give a good response instead of just knee-jerk reactions.

Finally, this final post I've quoted is just petty and childish.

Yes, because 18th century England fighting Americans who received aid from the French, Dutch, and Spanish, using boats and rifle formations and modern warfare using ballistic missiles and armored vehicles are pretty much the same thing. America also wouldn't aid in the fighting explicitly, since it could result in nuclear weapon usage.

What developed country fights another developed country with weapons nowadays? Your mentioning ballistic missiles and whatnot is pretty irrelevant considering how the world currently stands. And your point about America not engaging in fighting goes both ways and thus supports my point about the lack of actual combat between developed nations. I'm gonna respond later about the significance of foreign aid in the American Revolution after a bit of research. I doubt the Spanish especially even helped us much.

This guy is advocating lying down and letting China take Taiwan's sovereignty without even the threat of arms. How is that not sad?

Edit: Basically most of what I saw from his posts that wasn't directly refuted by Taiwanese was that "China is the bully, yes, but we should let them take over because they will stop bullying us." I just don't like that kind of thinking much.

Edit 2: The French did offer significant help to the Americans in the war (well, after we won the Battle of Saratoga at least) but mentioning the Spanish and the Dutch was just an attempt to make your point look more substantial. They didn't really help much at all.
Funnytoss
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Taiwan1471 Posts
January 30 2012 10:29 GMT
#90
Fact of the matter is that it suits most of the world to screw Taiwan over, on the diplomatic front at least. In a sense, China possesses a strong advantage over Taiwan not because of military strength. I'd argue that China's military buildup is aimed primarily towards the United States, not Taiwan. Yeah, it does want to bully Taiwan into submission, but its increasing effectiveness does not come from its weaponry. China already has the military might to take over Taiwan now if it wanted to, albeit at a heavy cost. What the CCP wants is to be able to take Taiwan at minimal cost to itself, and that would mean being able to take out a US Carrier Battle Group.

Taiwan's weak not because of its military position - it's been severely behind China for the past decade. Rather, it's weak because the world doesn't care about it. People are perfectly willing to overlook the CCP's human rights abuses if they can make money in China. It's just that simple. So long as China continues to be a huge profit machine, Taiwan's gonna get screwed.
AIV_Funnytoss and sGs.Funnytoss on iCCup
furymonkey
Profile Joined December 2008
New Zealand1587 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-30 11:19:05
January 30 2012 11:18 GMT
#91
On January 30 2012 19:29 Funnytoss wrote:
Fact of the matter is that it suits most of the world to screw Taiwan over, on the diplomatic front at least. In a sense, China possesses a strong advantage over Taiwan not because of military strength. I'd argue that China's military buildup is aimed primarily towards the United States, not Taiwan. Yeah, it does want to bully Taiwan into submission, but its increasing effectiveness does not come from its weaponry. China already has the military might to take over Taiwan now if it wanted to, albeit at a heavy cost. What the CCP wants is to be able to take Taiwan at minimal cost to itself, and that would mean being able to take out a US Carrier Battle Group.

Taiwan's weak not because of its military position - it's been severely behind China for the past decade. Rather, it's weak because the world doesn't care about it. People are perfectly willing to overlook the CCP's human rights abuses if they can make money in China. It's just that simple. So long as China continues to be a huge profit machine, Taiwan's gonna get screwed.


I agree with you.

On January 30 2012 15:45 Supamang wrote:
This guy is advocating lying down and letting China take Taiwan's sovereignty without even the threat of arms. How is that not sad?


The president Ma's foreign policy with China actually benefits Taiwan. What sovereignty has been taking away under his policy? Nothing! Everything Taiwan could've done before, they are still able to now. Instead, a few more options has opened up because China relax its pressure.

Do people actually believe that Ma want to hand the island over to China? You could ask anyone on the street, no one would want that, he will get shot down in no time, even by his own supporters. The majority knows (He is re-elected), this policy benefits Taiwan, while literally at no cost.

In fact Ma didn't even do anything special with his policy, he just didn't yell out all day that Taiwan wants indpendence like his predecessor.
Leenock the Punisher
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