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On December 01 2011 02:49 Mammel wrote:
In the last ~5 years I've bought SC2, WoW TBC and WotLK, and... Thats it?
Played most of the games. Most of the were trash.
What I probably would've paid for if they wouldn't be insanely overpriced for a student are TW1 and 2, DA:O, skyrim, maybe Risen, Medieval 2, Heroes 5 was decent, dunno about that... There are probably ~5 single player games other than those that I've played for more than 5 hours and roughly 50 games that were so bad that I couldn't even finish them.
With 1:10 of the games not sucking ass, how can anyone whine about piracy? I don't care If I'm a billionaire, I refuse to pay for trash games, DLC, preorder crap etc.
And you think that good games are going to get made if there's no money in it? Games are crap because developers are working off a budget. That budget is small because people like you aren't paying and giving them money to make good games.
You want the game industry to grow? Support it with your wallet.
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On December 01 2011 02:55 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 02:53 jtype wrote:On December 01 2011 02:52 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:47 jtype wrote:On December 01 2011 02:45 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:38 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:33 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:25 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:22 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:19 dementrio wrote:I have a better analogy than stealing. + Show Spoiler +it's not hard to find one, because, well, piracy isn't stealing You live in San Diego and you just turned 21. You go party hard in Mexico, where a bottle of tequila costs $10. The same bottle in the US costs $20, because there is heavy tax on alcohol thanks to the liberal media. You drink a bottle and come back for the hangover. How much did you steal from the US government? That's not a good analogy, because you're still paying for the service. If I could find the same game in two places, but one charged me $20 dollars less, it's still a sale. A better analogy is this. You have a magic gun that lets you clone anything you shoot with it. You walk onto a car dealership. You shoot a Camaro. You drive off in a brand new Camaro that you didn't pay for, but the one you cloned is still there. Is this stealing a car? Yeah. Yeah it fucking is. No, it's not. The owner of the original car still has it. You took a car that wasn't created and/or paid for by him in any capacity. #1 bad analogy. Alright, now what's to prevent 1000 people from walking on to the lot and doing the same thing? The going price of the 2011 Camaro is ~$35k. That's $35,000,000 worth of car that's driving out without being paid for. Oh look, the Camaro isn't being made anymore! But why? I still want a new Camaro even if I don't pay for it! Well you see, you fucking need to pay people for a service, or they're not going to keep making products because there's no revenue in it. How many pirates do you think are out there? Lol... if I clone a Camaro that goes at $35000, that's not $35000 lost for the company, since I can't afford it anyway. Now, with cars, there's a multitue of price ranges and different types, etc. So I'm able to afford a car. True, it's not as good as the Camaro, but it works. With computer games, however, I'm stuck with paying 60 Euro for a product, that I will add, costs 30 Euro in Finland (which I only found out today, thanks to this thread) - a country in which, a person at minimum wage earns 10 times what a person in my country does. It is $35000 wasted for the company though. Why should they even bother making cars when they won't sell? Again, this doesn't work for gaming because the games don't disappear, but the point still stands. Why do you spend time and money making a game that a good chunk of the people aren't going to pay for? You'll just run yourself broke that way. How is it wasted? Did a person who would otherwise buy the car, not buy it? Will that car never be sold at all? I don't quite know how you're drawing these conclusions. It costs months to years and billions of dollars to design a car. It costs thousands of dollars to build said car. That money is gained back by selling. When you make a product, you are FAR in the red. You expect sales to bring you back to profit. By choosing to not pay, you are keeping them in the red. So we should buy everything from everyone? No, but you should pay for products that you use if they're not intended to be free.
What if I took said product for a test-drive, didn't like it and never used it again? Should I pay full price for the product?
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On December 01 2011 02:53 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 02:49 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:45 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:38 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:33 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:25 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:22 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:19 dementrio wrote:I have a better analogy than stealing. + Show Spoiler +it's not hard to find one, because, well, piracy isn't stealing You live in San Diego and you just turned 21. You go party hard in Mexico, where a bottle of tequila costs $10. The same bottle in the US costs $20, because there is heavy tax on alcohol thanks to the liberal media. You drink a bottle and come back for the hangover. How much did you steal from the US government? That's not a good analogy, because you're still paying for the service. If I could find the same game in two places, but one charged me $20 dollars less, it's still a sale. A better analogy is this. You have a magic gun that lets you clone anything you shoot with it. You walk onto a car dealership. You shoot a Camaro. You drive off in a brand new Camaro that you didn't pay for, but the one you cloned is still there. Is this stealing a car? Yeah. Yeah it fucking is. No, it's not. The owner of the original car still has it. You took a car that wasn't created and/or paid for by him in any capacity. #1 bad analogy. Alright, now what's to prevent 1000 people from walking on to the lot and doing the same thing? The going price of the 2011 Camaro is ~$35k. That's $35,000,000 worth of car that's driving out without being paid for. Oh look, the Camaro isn't being made anymore! But why? I still want a new Camaro even if I don't pay for it! Well you see, you fucking need to pay people for a service, or they're not going to keep making products because there's no revenue in it. How many pirates do you think are out there? Lol... if I clone a Camaro that goes at $35000, that's not $35000 lost for the company, since I can't afford it anyway. Now, with cars, there's a multitue of price ranges and different types, etc. So I'm able to afford a car. True, it's not as good as the Camaro, but it works. With computer games, however, I'm stuck with paying 60 Euro for a product, that I will add, costs 30 Euro in Finland (which I only found out today, thanks to this thread) - a country in which, a person at minimum wage earns 10 times what a person in my country does. It is $35000 wasted for the company though. Why should they even bother making cars when they won't sell? Again, this doesn't work for gaming because the games don't disappear, but the point still stands. Why do you spend time and money making a game that a good chunk of the people aren't going to pay for? You'll just run yourself broke that way. Do you even read what I write? People that pirate games can't afford them, due to poor pricing in most of the cases. If pirating was impossible, they still wouldn't have bought them. You can't magically wish more money into existance. Stop throwing out absolutes. Yes, some people who pirate stuff wouldn't be able to buy if they wanted to. There are others though who simply don't want to pay. As well as people who want a good demo, or are 'making a statement'. So again, stop posting absolutes as to why pirating happens - there are a variety of reasons.
Come over here and try living for 1 year on our salaries. I promise you, my "absolutes" will seem exactly right to you after that period.
I've repeated the same concern about inadequate pricing a couple of times, but it seems that people are willing to ignore it... np,
On December 01 2011 02:59 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 02:58 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:53 Myles wrote:On December 01 2011 02:49 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:45 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:38 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:33 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:25 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:22 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:19 dementrio wrote:I have a better analogy than stealing. + Show Spoiler +it's not hard to find one, because, well, piracy isn't stealing You live in San Diego and you just turned 21. You go party hard in Mexico, where a bottle of tequila costs $10. The same bottle in the US costs $20, because there is heavy tax on alcohol thanks to the liberal media. You drink a bottle and come back for the hangover. How much did you steal from the US government? That's not a good analogy, because you're still paying for the service. If I could find the same game in two places, but one charged me $20 dollars less, it's still a sale. A better analogy is this. You have a magic gun that lets you clone anything you shoot with it. You walk onto a car dealership. You shoot a Camaro. You drive off in a brand new Camaro that you didn't pay for, but the one you cloned is still there. Is this stealing a car? Yeah. Yeah it fucking is. No, it's not. The owner of the original car still has it. You took a car that wasn't created and/or paid for by him in any capacity. #1 bad analogy. Alright, now what's to prevent 1000 people from walking on to the lot and doing the same thing? The going price of the 2011 Camaro is ~$35k. That's $35,000,000 worth of car that's driving out without being paid for. Oh look, the Camaro isn't being made anymore! But why? I still want a new Camaro even if I don't pay for it! Well you see, you fucking need to pay people for a service, or they're not going to keep making products because there's no revenue in it. How many pirates do you think are out there? Lol... if I clone a Camaro that goes at $35000, that's not $35000 lost for the company, since I can't afford it anyway. Now, with cars, there's a multitue of price ranges and different types, etc. So I'm able to afford a car. True, it's not as good as the Camaro, but it works. With computer games, however, I'm stuck with paying 60 Euro for a product, that I will add, costs 30 Euro in Finland (which I only found out today, thanks to this thread) - a country in which, a person at minimum wage earns 10 times what a person in my country does. It is $35000 wasted for the company though. Why should they even bother making cars when they won't sell? Again, this doesn't work for gaming because the games don't disappear, but the point still stands. Why do you spend time and money making a game that a good chunk of the people aren't going to pay for? You'll just run yourself broke that way. Do you even read what I write? People that pirate games can't afford them, due to poor pricing in most of the cases. If pirating was impossible, they still wouldn't have bought them. You can't magically wish more money into existance. Stop throwing out absolutes. Yes, some people who pirate stuff wouldn't be able to buy if they wanted to. There are others though who simply don't want to pay. As well as people who want a good demo, or are 'making a statement'. So again, stop posting absolutes as to why pirating happens - there are a variety of reasons. Come over here and try living for 1 year on our salaries. I promise you, my "absolutes" will seem exactly right to you after that period. This is going to be crass, but I don't give a shit. Your economic situation is not the situation of all pirates. Stop throwing out absolutes.
Going to say it again. Come over here and live on a salary for 1 year. Let's see if you still have the same views about piracy then.
On December 01 2011 02:56 HereAndNow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 02:49 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:45 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:38 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:33 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:25 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:22 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:19 dementrio wrote:I have a better analogy than stealing. + Show Spoiler +it's not hard to find one, because, well, piracy isn't stealing You live in San Diego and you just turned 21. You go party hard in Mexico, where a bottle of tequila costs $10. The same bottle in the US costs $20, because there is heavy tax on alcohol thanks to the liberal media. You drink a bottle and come back for the hangover. How much did you steal from the US government? That's not a good analogy, because you're still paying for the service. If I could find the same game in two places, but one charged me $20 dollars less, it's still a sale. A better analogy is this. You have a magic gun that lets you clone anything you shoot with it. You walk onto a car dealership. You shoot a Camaro. You drive off in a brand new Camaro that you didn't pay for, but the one you cloned is still there. Is this stealing a car? Yeah. Yeah it fucking is. No, it's not. The owner of the original car still has it. You took a car that wasn't created and/or paid for by him in any capacity. #1 bad analogy. Alright, now what's to prevent 1000 people from walking on to the lot and doing the same thing? The going price of the 2011 Camaro is ~$35k. That's $35,000,000 worth of car that's driving out without being paid for. Oh look, the Camaro isn't being made anymore! But why? I still want a new Camaro even if I don't pay for it! Well you see, you fucking need to pay people for a service, or they're not going to keep making products because there's no revenue in it. How many pirates do you think are out there? Lol... if I clone a Camaro that goes at $35000, that's not $35000 lost for the company, since I can't afford it anyway. Now, with cars, there's a multitue of price ranges and different types, etc. So I'm able to afford a car. True, it's not as good as the Camaro, but it works. With computer games, however, I'm stuck with paying 60 Euro for a product, that I will add, costs 30 Euro in Finland (which I only found out today, thanks to this thread) - a country in which, a person at minimum wage earns 10 times what a person in my country does. It is $35000 wasted for the company though. Why should they even bother making cars when they won't sell? Again, this doesn't work for gaming because the games don't disappear, but the point still stands. Why do you spend time and money making a game that a good chunk of the people aren't going to pay for? You'll just run yourself broke that way. Do you even read what I write? People that pirate games can't afford them, due to poor pricing in most of the cases. If pirating was impossible, they still wouldn't have bought them. You can't magically wish more money into existance. Actually, why am I wasting my time on a troll.... Dude, shut the fuck up. If you really think every pirate is just some poor kid who really likes games but can't afford them, you're deluding yourself. A lot, if not most, are people who have enough income but are too cheap or lazy to buy the game. Pirating isn't saving the starving children in Africa, it's mostly douchebags.
Hey, you're the one who's willing to call me a thief with zero regard of what the actual situation in some parts of the world is.
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United States5162 Posts
On December 01 2011 02:58 Nikon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 02:53 Myles wrote:On December 01 2011 02:49 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:45 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:38 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:33 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:25 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:22 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:19 dementrio wrote:I have a better analogy than stealing. + Show Spoiler +it's not hard to find one, because, well, piracy isn't stealing You live in San Diego and you just turned 21. You go party hard in Mexico, where a bottle of tequila costs $10. The same bottle in the US costs $20, because there is heavy tax on alcohol thanks to the liberal media. You drink a bottle and come back for the hangover. How much did you steal from the US government? That's not a good analogy, because you're still paying for the service. If I could find the same game in two places, but one charged me $20 dollars less, it's still a sale. A better analogy is this. You have a magic gun that lets you clone anything you shoot with it. You walk onto a car dealership. You shoot a Camaro. You drive off in a brand new Camaro that you didn't pay for, but the one you cloned is still there. Is this stealing a car? Yeah. Yeah it fucking is. No, it's not. The owner of the original car still has it. You took a car that wasn't created and/or paid for by him in any capacity. #1 bad analogy. Alright, now what's to prevent 1000 people from walking on to the lot and doing the same thing? The going price of the 2011 Camaro is ~$35k. That's $35,000,000 worth of car that's driving out without being paid for. Oh look, the Camaro isn't being made anymore! But why? I still want a new Camaro even if I don't pay for it! Well you see, you fucking need to pay people for a service, or they're not going to keep making products because there's no revenue in it. How many pirates do you think are out there? Lol... if I clone a Camaro that goes at $35000, that's not $35000 lost for the company, since I can't afford it anyway. Now, with cars, there's a multitue of price ranges and different types, etc. So I'm able to afford a car. True, it's not as good as the Camaro, but it works. With computer games, however, I'm stuck with paying 60 Euro for a product, that I will add, costs 30 Euro in Finland (which I only found out today, thanks to this thread) - a country in which, a person at minimum wage earns 10 times what a person in my country does. It is $35000 wasted for the company though. Why should they even bother making cars when they won't sell? Again, this doesn't work for gaming because the games don't disappear, but the point still stands. Why do you spend time and money making a game that a good chunk of the people aren't going to pay for? You'll just run yourself broke that way. Do you even read what I write? People that pirate games can't afford them, due to poor pricing in most of the cases. If pirating was impossible, they still wouldn't have bought them. You can't magically wish more money into existance. Stop throwing out absolutes. Yes, some people who pirate stuff wouldn't be able to buy if they wanted to. There are others though who simply don't want to pay. As well as people who want a good demo, or are 'making a statement'. So again, stop posting absolutes as to why pirating happens - there are a variety of reasons. Come over here and try living for 1 year on our salaries. I promise you, my "absolutes" will seem exactly right to you after that period.
This is going to be crass, but I don't give a shit. Your economic situation is not the situation of all pirates. Stop throwing out absolutes.
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On December 01 2011 02:56 HereAndNow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 02:49 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:45 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:38 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:33 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:25 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:22 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:19 dementrio wrote:I have a better analogy than stealing. + Show Spoiler +it's not hard to find one, because, well, piracy isn't stealing You live in San Diego and you just turned 21. You go party hard in Mexico, where a bottle of tequila costs $10. The same bottle in the US costs $20, because there is heavy tax on alcohol thanks to the liberal media. You drink a bottle and come back for the hangover. How much did you steal from the US government? That's not a good analogy, because you're still paying for the service. If I could find the same game in two places, but one charged me $20 dollars less, it's still a sale. A better analogy is this. You have a magic gun that lets you clone anything you shoot with it. You walk onto a car dealership. You shoot a Camaro. You drive off in a brand new Camaro that you didn't pay for, but the one you cloned is still there. Is this stealing a car? Yeah. Yeah it fucking is. No, it's not. The owner of the original car still has it. You took a car that wasn't created and/or paid for by him in any capacity. #1 bad analogy. Alright, now what's to prevent 1000 people from walking on to the lot and doing the same thing? The going price of the 2011 Camaro is ~$35k. That's $35,000,000 worth of car that's driving out without being paid for. Oh look, the Camaro isn't being made anymore! But why? I still want a new Camaro even if I don't pay for it! Well you see, you fucking need to pay people for a service, or they're not going to keep making products because there's no revenue in it. How many pirates do you think are out there? Lol... if I clone a Camaro that goes at $35000, that's not $35000 lost for the company, since I can't afford it anyway. Now, with cars, there's a multitue of price ranges and different types, etc. So I'm able to afford a car. True, it's not as good as the Camaro, but it works. With computer games, however, I'm stuck with paying 60 Euro for a product, that I will add, costs 30 Euro in Finland (which I only found out today, thanks to this thread) - a country in which, a person at minimum wage earns 10 times what a person in my country does. It is $35000 wasted for the company though. Why should they even bother making cars when they won't sell? Again, this doesn't work for gaming because the games don't disappear, but the point still stands. Why do you spend time and money making a game that a good chunk of the people aren't going to pay for? You'll just run yourself broke that way. Do you even read what I write? People that pirate games can't afford them, due to poor pricing in most of the cases. If pirating was impossible, they still wouldn't have bought them. You can't magically wish more money into existance. Actually, why am I wasting my time on a troll.... Dude, shut the fuck up. If you really think every pirate is just some poor kid who really likes games but can't afford them, you're deluding yourself. A lot, if not most, are people who have enough income but are too cheap or lazy to buy the game. Pirating isn't saving the starving children in Africa, it's mostly douchebags.
the only douche bag here is you. If someone decides to download it instead of paying for it ... that means by defitiion they are not willing to pay for it (or its easier and the games company hasn't found the right delivery mechanism as my time is more precious than money) and so cannot afford it
why not learn some logical interpretation.
ps stop being a douche adn shut the fuck up.
Having £40 in your account doesn't mean you can afford to spend £40 ... its not like we all have pocket money from mommy and daddy.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 01 2011 02:51 MrTortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 02:43 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:37 MrTortoise wrote:
If the thread is about reducing piracy then ther is a need to establish that it is actually a problem
Here is a question
How is piracy harming you?
The game, music and film industries are larger than ever. They are doing great ... sure the big ones that invbested in now out of date technology infrastructure are fucked but really how doe sthat harm YOU?
it doesnt piracy helps you, why the hell are you trying to help the interestes of multi billion dollar companies that want *your* money?
Piracy is great. If everyone was allowed to pirate everything they needed then a lot of inequality would vanish.
a $20 game in us maybe cheap but if you goto poland its relatively a lot more (or used to be dunno abotu now) This is the victimless crime syndrome. Look at the movie The Perfect Score (not a great movie, but good for this example). If you cheat on your SAT, and get into a good college knowing that you don't belong there, and your attendance didn't prevent someone else from going, would you cheat to get a higher score? You're not hurting anyone, right? No. It's still wrong. And while you might say that this thread isn't about moral issues and is about DRM and what not, it is a moral issue, because that's all you can talk about as far as this goes. sorry i dont understand right and wrong You see they are broken. If you cared about right and wrong you would be solving homelessness and starvation ... you dont. So really you are only using them selectivley. Ie right and wrong are really luxuaries of the rich. You want me to watch a 2 hour movie just to understand a point you made? Sorry mate but ai really dont care that much - explain it and i will read. If you cheat on your tests at school yes you will get a good grade .. the problem is when you then try and work for a living you will be fucked. Stop making crappy analogies and argue the point. Im not saying its a victimless crime, im sayign the software industry is where it is BECAUSE of piracy. why do you think id software are heralded as gods? because EVERYBODY played doom as it was shareware then EVERYONE played doom2 then EVERYONE played quake, then EVERYONE played quake2 because there was a good demo. Now people dont do that ... so we pirate. They lose for not knowing about market segmentation. Also i wasnt arguing for a victimless crime ... im sayign the cost of the crime is almost zero to the industry and is zero for you. Moreover why are you trying to use an abstract concept with no reference to reality to argue my point which is very much rooted in reality. Why dont you want more stuff for free?
There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you don't get that concept, you're a child.
Any job requires money. Lets say you work at a restaurant. You make food. But no one buys your food. You go out of business. That's how money works.
Games don't just fucking show up out of nowhere for no cost. It is wrong to take them without paying. If you can't afford them, don't play games. It's not a necessity in life, you can get by without games, bought or pirated.
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United States5162 Posts
On December 01 2011 03:00 MrTortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 02:56 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:49 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:45 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:38 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:33 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:25 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:22 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:19 dementrio wrote:I have a better analogy than stealing. + Show Spoiler +it's not hard to find one, because, well, piracy isn't stealing You live in San Diego and you just turned 21. You go party hard in Mexico, where a bottle of tequila costs $10. The same bottle in the US costs $20, because there is heavy tax on alcohol thanks to the liberal media. You drink a bottle and come back for the hangover. How much did you steal from the US government? That's not a good analogy, because you're still paying for the service. If I could find the same game in two places, but one charged me $20 dollars less, it's still a sale. A better analogy is this. You have a magic gun that lets you clone anything you shoot with it. You walk onto a car dealership. You shoot a Camaro. You drive off in a brand new Camaro that you didn't pay for, but the one you cloned is still there. Is this stealing a car? Yeah. Yeah it fucking is. No, it's not. The owner of the original car still has it. You took a car that wasn't created and/or paid for by him in any capacity. #1 bad analogy. Alright, now what's to prevent 1000 people from walking on to the lot and doing the same thing? The going price of the 2011 Camaro is ~$35k. That's $35,000,000 worth of car that's driving out without being paid for. Oh look, the Camaro isn't being made anymore! But why? I still want a new Camaro even if I don't pay for it! Well you see, you fucking need to pay people for a service, or they're not going to keep making products because there's no revenue in it. How many pirates do you think are out there? Lol... if I clone a Camaro that goes at $35000, that's not $35000 lost for the company, since I can't afford it anyway. Now, with cars, there's a multitue of price ranges and different types, etc. So I'm able to afford a car. True, it's not as good as the Camaro, but it works. With computer games, however, I'm stuck with paying 60 Euro for a product, that I will add, costs 30 Euro in Finland (which I only found out today, thanks to this thread) - a country in which, a person at minimum wage earns 10 times what a person in my country does. It is $35000 wasted for the company though. Why should they even bother making cars when they won't sell? Again, this doesn't work for gaming because the games don't disappear, but the point still stands. Why do you spend time and money making a game that a good chunk of the people aren't going to pay for? You'll just run yourself broke that way. Do you even read what I write? People that pirate games can't afford them, due to poor pricing in most of the cases. If pirating was impossible, they still wouldn't have bought them. You can't magically wish more money into existance. Actually, why am I wasting my time on a troll.... Dude, shut the fuck up. If you really think every pirate is just some poor kid who really likes games but can't afford them, you're deluding yourself. A lot, if not most, are people who have enough income but are too cheap or lazy to buy the game. Pirating isn't saving the starving children in Africa, it's mostly douchebags. the only douche bag here is you. If someone decides to download it instead of paying for it ... that means by defitiion they are not willing to pay for it (or its easier and the games company hasn't found the right delivery mechanism as my time is more precious than money) and so cannot afford it. why not learn some logical interpretation. ps stop being a douche adn shut the fuck up. Having £40 in your account doesn't mean you can afford to spend £40 ... its not liek we all have pocket money from mommy and daddy.
You tell him to use logic when you assume that because someone is not willing to buy something, but are willing to use it for free, that they automatically can't afford it. That's horrible logic.
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On December 01 2011 02:57 HereAndNow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 02:49 Mammel wrote:
In the last ~5 years I've bought SC2, WoW TBC and WotLK, and... Thats it?
Played most of the games. Most of the were trash.
What I probably would've paid for if they wouldn't be insanely overpriced for a student are TW1 and 2, DA:O, skyrim, maybe Risen, Medieval 2, Heroes 5 was decent, dunno about that... There are probably ~5 single player games other than those that I've played for more than 5 hours and roughly 50 games that were so bad that I couldn't even finish them.
With 1:10 of the games not sucking ass, how can anyone whine about piracy? I don't care If I'm a billionaire, I refuse to pay for trash games, DLC, preorder crap etc. And you think that good games are going to get made if there's no money in it? Games are crap because developers are working off a budget.
Actually that's not a fact. Games aren't crap because developers are working on a small budget. Games could be bad because developers are realizing how much money there actually is to be made in just pumping out endless sequels to game franchises every few months.
If you'd noticed the boom in the last 2-3 years in the indie development scene, you'd know that your argument had some holes in it.
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I was one of those 4.5 million. A few friends and I heard about the lack of DRM and decided to chip in to buy a game that none of us were interested in before hand. We bought a copy and set it up on all 4 of our computers. Two of us liked it, two of us (including me) did not.
The lack of DRM is why we bought in the first place. If they had a standard DRM system, they would have gotten exactly 0 sales out of my group. Without DRM, they got 1 sale for 2 people who enjoyed it. Even though I didn't like the game, they still got my attention and I will pay attention to future games from them.
If you were an executive, would you prefer to get 50% of the sales you could have gotten, or 0%? Lack of DRM got them 50%.
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On December 01 2011 02:57 HereAndNow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 02:49 Mammel wrote:
In the last ~5 years I've bought SC2, WoW TBC and WotLK, and... Thats it?
Played most of the games. Most of the were trash.
What I probably would've paid for if they wouldn't be insanely overpriced for a student are TW1 and 2, DA:O, skyrim, maybe Risen, Medieval 2, Heroes 5 was decent, dunno about that... There are probably ~5 single player games other than those that I've played for more than 5 hours and roughly 50 games that were so bad that I couldn't even finish them.
With 1:10 of the games not sucking ass, how can anyone whine about piracy? I don't care If I'm a billionaire, I refuse to pay for trash games, DLC, preorder crap etc. And you think that good games are going to get made if there's no money in it? Games are crap because developers are working off a budget. That budget is small because people like you aren't paying and giving them money to make good games. You want the game industry to grow? Support it with your wallet.
The problem is the evidence contradicts you
The industry IS growing and he is pirating ... so by YOUR logic piracy has helped.
Games are crap because they are rushed, released early and designed on the premise of 'crap we need to make some money we need to release a game' and not from the premise of 'hey lets make a great game'
Moreover this whole developers on a budget thing is really pissing me off. I learnt to program to build games when i was a kid. Developers in the games world are TRET LIKE SHIT AND BURN OUT AFTER 5 YEARS USUALLY. developers have VERY little say in a game and literally take a list of requirements and implement them - the problem is everyone wants to write games so the hours are really long and the pay is low. The result i now spend most of my time working for private companies.
Developers deserve sympathy and money sent to them directly instead of to publishers. When a game is released do you think the developers are on commission? NO they were paid by the hour (and then probably made to work a crap ton of unpaid overtime) - the point is they have already been paid by the time the game is released in the VAST majority of cases.
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On December 01 2011 03:00 MrTortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 02:56 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:49 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:45 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:38 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:33 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:25 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:22 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:19 dementrio wrote:I have a better analogy than stealing. + Show Spoiler +it's not hard to find one, because, well, piracy isn't stealing You live in San Diego and you just turned 21. You go party hard in Mexico, where a bottle of tequila costs $10. The same bottle in the US costs $20, because there is heavy tax on alcohol thanks to the liberal media. You drink a bottle and come back for the hangover. How much did you steal from the US government? That's not a good analogy, because you're still paying for the service. If I could find the same game in two places, but one charged me $20 dollars less, it's still a sale. A better analogy is this. You have a magic gun that lets you clone anything you shoot with it. You walk onto a car dealership. You shoot a Camaro. You drive off in a brand new Camaro that you didn't pay for, but the one you cloned is still there. Is this stealing a car? Yeah. Yeah it fucking is. No, it's not. The owner of the original car still has it. You took a car that wasn't created and/or paid for by him in any capacity. #1 bad analogy. Alright, now what's to prevent 1000 people from walking on to the lot and doing the same thing? The going price of the 2011 Camaro is ~$35k. That's $35,000,000 worth of car that's driving out without being paid for. Oh look, the Camaro isn't being made anymore! But why? I still want a new Camaro even if I don't pay for it! Well you see, you fucking need to pay people for a service, or they're not going to keep making products because there's no revenue in it. How many pirates do you think are out there? Lol... if I clone a Camaro that goes at $35000, that's not $35000 lost for the company, since I can't afford it anyway. Now, with cars, there's a multitue of price ranges and different types, etc. So I'm able to afford a car. True, it's not as good as the Camaro, but it works. With computer games, however, I'm stuck with paying 60 Euro for a product, that I will add, costs 30 Euro in Finland (which I only found out today, thanks to this thread) - a country in which, a person at minimum wage earns 10 times what a person in my country does. It is $35000 wasted for the company though. Why should they even bother making cars when they won't sell? Again, this doesn't work for gaming because the games don't disappear, but the point still stands. Why do you spend time and money making a game that a good chunk of the people aren't going to pay for? You'll just run yourself broke that way. Do you even read what I write? People that pirate games can't afford them, due to poor pricing in most of the cases. If pirating was impossible, they still wouldn't have bought them. You can't magically wish more money into existance. Actually, why am I wasting my time on a troll.... Dude, shut the fuck up. If you really think every pirate is just some poor kid who really likes games but can't afford them, you're deluding yourself. A lot, if not most, are people who have enough income but are too cheap or lazy to buy the game. Pirating isn't saving the starving children in Africa, it's mostly douchebags. the only douche bag here is you. If someone decides to download it instead of paying for it ... that means by defitiion they are not willing to pay for it (or its easier and the games company hasn't found the right delivery mechanism as my time is more precious than money) and so cannot afford it why not learn some logical interpretation. ps stop being a douche adn shut the fuck up. Having £40 in your account doesn't mean you can afford to spend £40 ... its not like we all have pocket money from mommy and daddy.
I have a fucking job. I sit at a desk for 8 hours. I get paid, because people buy my product. If they all pirated it (yes, I work for a software company), then I'd be out of a job. See how that works?
You don't NEED games. If you can't afford them, tough shit. The answer isn't "lulz just pirate it", it's actually get a better job or don't worry about superfluous shit like games.
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Norway28647 Posts
some piracy is defensible. some is not. if you are a working 25+ year old living in a western country, pirating is pretty.. petty. games give an immense amount of entertainment per buck spent compared virtually every other activity we can engage in - for example I've played 85 hours of skyrim already, a game which I paid $60 or so for. but if you're younger than 18, you prolly couldn't afford the game anyway if you didn't pirate it, so just do it - nobody loses anything from your piracy, if anything a good game will get slightly more publicity and thus a miniscule increase in sales numbers.
as for the example from OP; the 4.5 million number is obviously inflated and I'd be surprised if the amount of actual sales lost due to piracy were higher than 500000 (still a high number.) but as for the witcher 2, they've sold more than a million copies - 250k online and at least 750k box packages. now, even with a huge development team, and even with using a small figure like say, $30 as an average cost per game (it's obviously higher), then they've certainly made a lot of money, because I can't imagine production costs exceeding 30 million dollars.. if anything, piracy is a problem for smaller indie games.
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On December 01 2011 02:53 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 02:49 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:45 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:38 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:33 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:25 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:22 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:19 dementrio wrote:I have a better analogy than stealing. + Show Spoiler +it's not hard to find one, because, well, piracy isn't stealing You live in San Diego and you just turned 21. You go party hard in Mexico, where a bottle of tequila costs $10. The same bottle in the US costs $20, because there is heavy tax on alcohol thanks to the liberal media. You drink a bottle and come back for the hangover. How much did you steal from the US government? That's not a good analogy, because you're still paying for the service. If I could find the same game in two places, but one charged me $20 dollars less, it's still a sale. A better analogy is this. You have a magic gun that lets you clone anything you shoot with it. You walk onto a car dealership. You shoot a Camaro. You drive off in a brand new Camaro that you didn't pay for, but the one you cloned is still there. Is this stealing a car? Yeah. Yeah it fucking is. No, it's not. The owner of the original car still has it. You took a car that wasn't created and/or paid for by him in any capacity. #1 bad analogy. Alright, now what's to prevent 1000 people from walking on to the lot and doing the same thing? The going price of the 2011 Camaro is ~$35k. That's $35,000,000 worth of car that's driving out without being paid for. Oh look, the Camaro isn't being made anymore! But why? I still want a new Camaro even if I don't pay for it! Well you see, you fucking need to pay people for a service, or they're not going to keep making products because there's no revenue in it. How many pirates do you think are out there? Lol... if I clone a Camaro that goes at $35000, that's not $35000 lost for the company, since I can't afford it anyway. Now, with cars, there's a multitue of price ranges and different types, etc. So I'm able to afford a car. True, it's not as good as the Camaro, but it works. With computer games, however, I'm stuck with paying 60 Euro for a product, that I will add, costs 30 Euro in Finland (which I only found out today, thanks to this thread) - a country in which, a person at minimum wage earns 10 times what a person in my country does. It is $35000 wasted for the company though. Why should they even bother making cars when they won't sell? Again, this doesn't work for gaming because the games don't disappear, but the point still stands. Why do you spend time and money making a game that a good chunk of the people aren't going to pay for? You'll just run yourself broke that way. Do you even read what I write? People that pirate games can't afford them, due to poor pricing in most of the cases. If pirating was impossible, they still wouldn't have bought them. You can't magically wish more money into existance. Stop throwing out absolutes. Yes, some people who pirate stuff wouldn't be able to buy if they wanted to. There are others though who simply don't want to pay. As well as people who want a good demo, or are 'making a statement'. So again, stop posting absolutes as to why pirating happens - there are a variety of reasons.
I would say the majority of people who download games illegally either 1. Can't afford them, or 2. Wouldn't buy them in the first place.
I have friends with hundreds of GB of illegal games on their hard drives that they just download compulsively, because they can, same with music/movies. They never watch the movies, listen to the music, or play the games most of the time. Pirating games and getting them to work properly can be a pain in the butt if you actually spend a lot of time with the game(and depending on the game). Obviously this is just my experience, but people seeing "millions of illegal downloads" and them thinking that is millions in lost sales are delusional. And stupid, considering that an illegal download from someone that would never be able to buy it/just won't buy it in the first place doesn't affect them in the slightest other than free publicity.
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Everybody who complains about the developers ripping us off and DRM as causes of pirating are talking out of their ass tbh. I was born in 1987, at the border of the internet generation.
My family got connected to the internet when I was 12, a slow 56k modem where it took 20 minutes to download a 2 MB Snes rom, but pirating didn't really hit it big until 2001, when I was 14. This was back when more and more ppl started getting broadband internet, which increased the speed ten-fold. Suddenly we had access to everything for free and we started downloading games and music regularly. I remember how pirating changed the outlook that me and my friends had on media, including music, games and movies.
You who were born in 88/89 or the 90's have not seen the other side, unless you were major geeks at a really early age, so you don't really have a clue about what your outlook on games would have been if the internet hadn't existed. Even if you can remember "the offline days", you didn't really experience it fully, like the ppl who were born around 85 or earlier did.
In 2001 we were pirating for 1 reason only, because we could. There was no such thing as DRM and we didn't start pirating because we felt cheated by the companies. The ppl who say things like that are contradicting themselves. If you really think a game is terrible you wouldn't even be playing it, no matter if it's free or not. Just downloading a game shows that you're atleast interested in it, and many of you would have bought or rented the game if things were differently.
Why waste money on renting a movie, when you could just download it and spend the money on snacks instead?
I can understand both sides. I agree that the media industries are overestimating their losses, and that they haven't been fighting pirating in the most ideal way, but you're pretty much asking them to walk on water.
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Games don't just fucking show up out of nowhere for no cost. It is wrong to take them without paying. If you can't afford them, don't play games. It's not a necessity in life, you can get by without games, bought or pirated.
I'm poor. I can't afford any games. I pirate them. Developer lost nothing. I gained. The world just gained happiness without losing any. Something is only wrong when someone else gets hurt. A victimless crime cannot be wrong.
note: I don't actually do this as I am able to buy games
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On December 01 2011 03:03 MrTortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 02:57 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:49 Mammel wrote:
In the last ~5 years I've bought SC2, WoW TBC and WotLK, and... Thats it?
Played most of the games. Most of the were trash.
What I probably would've paid for if they wouldn't be insanely overpriced for a student are TW1 and 2, DA:O, skyrim, maybe Risen, Medieval 2, Heroes 5 was decent, dunno about that... There are probably ~5 single player games other than those that I've played for more than 5 hours and roughly 50 games that were so bad that I couldn't even finish them.
With 1:10 of the games not sucking ass, how can anyone whine about piracy? I don't care If I'm a billionaire, I refuse to pay for trash games, DLC, preorder crap etc. And you think that good games are going to get made if there's no money in it? Games are crap because developers are working off a budget. That budget is small because people like you aren't paying and giving them money to make good games. You want the game industry to grow? Support it with your wallet. The problem is the evidence contradicts you The industry IS growing and he is pirating ... so by YOUR logic piracy has helped. Games are crap because they are rushed, released early and designed on the premise of 'crap we need to make some money we need to release a game' and not from the premise of 'hey lets make a great game'
The industry in growing in spite of pirates. There are more people buying now, but there are also more people pirating now.
How many copies of any PC game do you think are normally pirated? 4.5 million of the Witcher 2 apparently. At ~$60 USD, that's $270 million. Sure, some of those people may have gone out to buy it afterwards, but probably not much.
$270,000,000 can fund another game almost by itself. If you don't think that people actually buying games would help the industry, you don't know shit about money.
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So you really think that sales revenue is the only way businesses grow? What about marketing? What about free trials?
Are those things meaningless? What value do you put on the 2 million people who downloaded Torchlight illegally in China? Do you view them all as thieves? Or do you recognize that that's 2 million potential customers in an untapped market?
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On December 01 2011 03:06 Liquid`Drone wrote:+ Show Spoiler [unrelated to my post] +some piracy is defensible. some is not. if you are a working 25+ year old living in a western country, pirating is pretty.. petty. games give an immense amount of entertainment per buck spent compared virtually every other activity we can engage in - for example I've played 85 hours of skyrim already, a game which I paid $60 or so for. but if you're younger than 18, you prolly couldn't afford the game anyway if you didn't pirate it, so just do it - nobody loses anything from your piracy, if anything a good game will get slightly more publicity and thus a miniscule increase in sales numbers.
as for the example from OP; the 4.5 million number is obviously inflated and I'd be surprised if the amount of actual sales lost due to piracy were higher than 500000 (still a high number.) but as for the witcher 2, they've sold more than a million copies - 250k online and at least 750k box packages. now, even with a huge development team, and even with using a small figure like say, $30 as an average cost per game (it's obviously higher), then they've certainly made a lot of money, because I can't imagine production costs exceeding 30 million dollars.. if anything, piracy is a problem for smaller indie games.
Which I always buy regardless for that exact reason. Supreme Ruler Cold War sucks and doesn't fix the problems of Supreme Ruler 2020 but I still bought it (granted- while it was on steam sale last weekend) because there is no other strategy game like it (Aside from Hearts of Iron, by the same publisher).
Granted this isn't an indie company but more of a small one. Still I agree with your point completely.
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Piracy is in fact like stealing. It's just that you're stealing intellectual property. But that doesn't really matter, since society has evolved in a way that piracy is far, far more acceptable than, let's say, shoplifting.
I think there are a few types of pirates:
1) People who just can't afford the games. Mostly in the developing world (like here, a fraction of US GDP and games are actually MORE expensive).
Money lost for companies: none, if they couldn't pirate they just wouldn't play games, or just play free ones.
2)Reasonable pirates: they might pirate to test a game before they decide to buy it, they may buy some of the games but can't afford all of them so they pirate a few others. They may dislike DRM or some other sheannigans by some company and find it silly that a pirated copy is better than the one they could pay for.
Money lost: some. Things like DRM probably just pushes them more towards piracy.
3) Asshole pirates: they can afford games, but they're just cheap bastards who just want free stuff.
Money lost: lots. Effective measures against piracy may make them actually buy the games.
In any case, I think gaming companies have every right to try and defend their property, but from a business standpoint... I just think the best way to beat piracy is just to make good games, at decent prices and make it easy and convenient for gamers to buy them.
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United States5162 Posts
On December 01 2011 03:06 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 02:53 Myles wrote:On December 01 2011 02:49 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:45 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:38 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:33 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:25 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:22 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:19 dementrio wrote:I have a better analogy than stealing. + Show Spoiler +it's not hard to find one, because, well, piracy isn't stealing You live in San Diego and you just turned 21. You go party hard in Mexico, where a bottle of tequila costs $10. The same bottle in the US costs $20, because there is heavy tax on alcohol thanks to the liberal media. You drink a bottle and come back for the hangover. How much did you steal from the US government? That's not a good analogy, because you're still paying for the service. If I could find the same game in two places, but one charged me $20 dollars less, it's still a sale. A better analogy is this. You have a magic gun that lets you clone anything you shoot with it. You walk onto a car dealership. You shoot a Camaro. You drive off in a brand new Camaro that you didn't pay for, but the one you cloned is still there. Is this stealing a car? Yeah. Yeah it fucking is. No, it's not. The owner of the original car still has it. You took a car that wasn't created and/or paid for by him in any capacity. #1 bad analogy. Alright, now what's to prevent 1000 people from walking on to the lot and doing the same thing? The going price of the 2011 Camaro is ~$35k. That's $35,000,000 worth of car that's driving out without being paid for. Oh look, the Camaro isn't being made anymore! But why? I still want a new Camaro even if I don't pay for it! Well you see, you fucking need to pay people for a service, or they're not going to keep making products because there's no revenue in it. How many pirates do you think are out there? Lol... if I clone a Camaro that goes at $35000, that's not $35000 lost for the company, since I can't afford it anyway. Now, with cars, there's a multitue of price ranges and different types, etc. So I'm able to afford a car. True, it's not as good as the Camaro, but it works. With computer games, however, I'm stuck with paying 60 Euro for a product, that I will add, costs 30 Euro in Finland (which I only found out today, thanks to this thread) - a country in which, a person at minimum wage earns 10 times what a person in my country does. It is $35000 wasted for the company though. Why should they even bother making cars when they won't sell? Again, this doesn't work for gaming because the games don't disappear, but the point still stands. Why do you spend time and money making a game that a good chunk of the people aren't going to pay for? You'll just run yourself broke that way. Do you even read what I write? People that pirate games can't afford them, due to poor pricing in most of the cases. If pirating was impossible, they still wouldn't have bought them. You can't magically wish more money into existance. Stop throwing out absolutes. Yes, some people who pirate stuff wouldn't be able to buy if they wanted to. There are others though who simply don't want to pay. As well as people who want a good demo, or are 'making a statement'. So again, stop posting absolutes as to why pirating happens - there are a variety of reasons. I would say the majority of people who download games illegally either 1. Can't afford them, or 2. Wouldn't buy them in the first place. I have friends with hundreds of GB of illegal games on their hard drives that they just download compulsively, because they can, same with music/movies. They never watch the movies, listen to the music, or play the games most of the time. Pirating games and getting them to work properly can be a pain in the butt if you actually spend a lot of time with the game(and depending on the game). Obviously this is just my experience, but people seeing "millions of illegal downloads" and them thinking that is millions in lost sales are delusional. And stupid, considering that an illegal download from someone that would never be able to buy it/just won't buy it in the first place doesn't affect them in the slightest other than free publicity.
I don't disagree. A friend of mine has hundreds of gigs of songs on his computer. He could have never afforded to buy all of it. However, the problem is that you aren't paying for any of it. Normally, you might consume 1/5 of what you pirate(pulled out of my ass, don't take seriously) so you'd be contributing to some people. By pirating it all you're contributing to no one.
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