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Fighting piracy is pointless as long as the game is running 100% on the local gaming system (PC or console does not really matter, console may be more difficult, but difficult free pariating is prefered to easy and expensive buying).
All solutions to prevent pariating that are known today involve using the net in someform like :
- Streaming games (OnLive)
-Having part of the game on servers and only allowing playability if offline and online part come together (Starcraft 2 is a good example for that, the starcraft 2 beta client was up in the web very early but it took nearly a year to produce the first non official server you can use for multiplayer because the logic that is used to setup and mantain a multiplayer game is not part of the starcraft 2 binaris we have on our PC's. Sadly that means that no lan mode is something that makes piracy very difficult (if you plan on enjoying the multiplayer))
Piracy is something that is bad for the games industry no Questions. But it's really not a big deal if you look at the big picture (in single cases it has the power to kill small developers).
Overall developing games gets cheaper and easier as the years go by. There are so many tools that make ones live easier and developing graphic in a quality that is exceptable is indefinitely easier than 10 years ago. This trend will go on as time progresses, because we will "soon" hit two major lines that will stop the race for more performance (most people will have noticed that performance in the last 5 years wasn't half as bad as it was the 5 years before that) : The first line is what we can perceive with our human eye. The second and more important one is what we want in terms of "beauty". I during this november i often heard the term "Better than reality from a graphic standpoint" and once you're there racing father is kind of pointless.
Tldr :
Piracy can be prevented if the net grows fast enough around the world, but if it's not it really does not matter that much.
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On December 01 2011 03:07 ninini wrote:
Everybody who complains about the developers ripping us off and DRM as causes of pirating are talking out of their ass tbh. I was born in 1987, at the border of the internet generation.
My family got connected to the internet when I was 12, a slow 56k modem where it took 20 minutes to download a 2 MB Snes rom, but pirating didn't really hit it big until 2001, when I was 14. This was back when more and more ppl started getting broadband internet, which increased the speed ten-fold. Suddenly we had access to everything for free and we started downloading games and music regularly. I remember how pirating changed the outlook that me and my friends had on media, including music, games and movies.
You who were born in 88/89 or the 90's have not seen the other side, unless you were major geeks at a really early age, so you don't really have a clue about what your outlook on games would have been if the internet hadn't existed. Even if you can remember "the offline days", you didn't really experience it fully, like the ppl who were born around 85 or earlier did.
In 2001 we were pirating for 1 reason only, because we could. There was no such thing as DRM and we didn't start pirating because we felt cheated by the companies. The ppl who say things like that are contradicting themselves. If you really think a game is terrible you wouldn't even be playing it, no matter if it's free or not. Just downloading a game shows that you're atleast interested in it, and many of you would have bought or rented the game if things were differently.
Why waste money on renting a movie, when you could just download it and spend the money on snacks instead?
I can understand both sides. I agree that the media industries are overestimating their losses, and that they haven't been fighting pirating in the most ideal way, but you're pretty much asking them to walk on water.
Look, I was born in 1986. But not in Sweden. When you were 14, the minimum wage in my country was 40 Euro. There's no fucking way that people will be able to afford a game that costs 60 Euro. Nevermind actually having a computer to play it on. Even if a family could afford to save up for a computer, pirating the software was a given, since it'd be impossible to buy more than one game per year or so.
Now, our country is getting wealthier to the point where a lot of people can afford computers. But, we hit the software price snag again. Like I've said so many times already, a person from Finland was able to buy SC2 at release for 30 Euro. I had to pay twice the amount. He probably makes ten times the amount of money that I do. This is inadequate pricing, and it drives most of the piracy in my country.
Now, as far as being interested in the game if you download it - that's true. So let's say I download the newest installment in the Need for Speed series, then play it for 20 minutes and decide that it's crap. Then I uninstall it and I never bother with it again. True, I was interested in the game to begin with, but that hardly justifies me paying a full price for that product. In fact, I'd be pretty pissed if I did just that.
So, who's in the wrong here? I think that you'll be able to agree with me - paying full price for trying out something isn't justified. Hell, some car dealerships offer you a test ride in their cars, do they not? However, I just pirated the game so now I'm a criminal according to law. How am I supposed to take that law seriously? Even if my salary gets on an adequate level in the future... I've still lived with this my whole life. And then I'm going to raise kids. This of course, will lead to problems, but people with no understanding of the situation are "rectifying" it by adding more and more DRM. So I don't see this resolving in a reasonable manner during this generation, or the next one, or the one after that.
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On December 01 2011 01:39 Ian Ian Ian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 22:24 Interloper wrote:
Many people who pirate do so because they want to try a game out. If they enjoy the game, they will buy it too support the developer. 4,5 million downloads becomes a useless figure since you can not in any way know how many of those 4,5 million purchased the game afterwards. I feel that piracy is a good way to get rid of shitty developers how make crappy games only for the sake of making money (Well all developers want to make money ofc, but i hope you get my point). Good developers get the money they need and then some. Piracy will not be the end of gaming. ...thats fucking bullshit lol. Piracy will eventually change the video game scene alot though. Developers are accustomed to making shitloads of money, they will do something, like the OP said. DLC, subscribe games, etc, are already becoming way more common
Cute how you say everything in my post is "fucking bullshit lol" and give no reason why. You know how to discuss things i see. Thumbs up too you! (Y)
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United States5162 Posts
On December 01 2011 03:25 bLooD. wrote:
Piracy is a difficult topic. I dont think there is any way to stop it completely. I think the problem is 60$/€ is a pretty big investment for teens 13-18 (which should be the biggest part of the gaming community). You invest 60$/€ in something you don´t even know if its worth it? I think one way to decrease piracy could be putting out the full game to everyone for free for lets say 3 days. So you can test it see how it is and than decide if you really want it. I think a lot more games would be sold because in those 3 Days they get interested and want to see how the game goes on.
But realizing such a system would probably be pretty tough. But who knows, maybe someday...
I agree with this.
There are many ways in which game developers encourage people to pirate. By not allowing people a proper demo or way to try out a product, I think it's only natural that people would be skeptical about paying upfront when there are so many poorly made games out there. Another problem is recommended system specs that can barely play the game. And as Nikon has brought up, pricing schemes that pretty much force poorer countries to pirate.
There will always be people out there who will take what they can if it's 'free' and there's little chance of repercussions. And I don't think you will ever be able to stop piracy even with always online DRM like Ubisoft and others have tried. I don't think combating pirates directly will ever work. Developers need to encourage users to buy legitimately by offering a better service then can be gained through pirating. Steam has done a wonderful job of this.
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Norway28727 Posts
On December 01 2011 03:22 HereAndNow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 03:10 InterestingName wrote:
Piracy is more of an individual issue. Many of these supposed illegal downloads were made by low budget gamers who never would have been able to buy the $60 dollar titles. For me, it is often hard to find big titles in stores directly after release. Not only that but being a student i rarely have $60 to throw down at release time for a game that i genuinely want to play and pay for. I downloaded Skyrim, and only just bought it yesterday, more than two weeks after. Although i only pay for maybe 1/10th of the games i have illegally downloaded, most of them end up being utter shit that the developer should not be rewarded for. Any want to give me their outrage about how much "Big Rigs" was pirated? The idea of a "low-budget gamer" seems to be the problem here. If something is outside your budget, it shouldn't be your hobby. I want to have my own helicopter as a hobby. I can't afford one. I don't steal one. Simple. "I want this, so I'll steal it since I can't afford it" isn't justification. It's childish behavior.
it's actually more like, "I have all the parts needed to build a helicopter in my back yard. but I don't know how to go about it. hm, here's what i'll do, I'll download some instructions on how to manifacture a helicopter so I can build it myself, rather than having to pay an inflated price for something that I already have all the necessary components to enjoy".
many gamers are younger than 18, living with their parents, and thus not responsible for their own economic status. in norway, a 16 year old is discouraged from working. (apart from summer jobs.) further, many gamers live in development countries, where computer games happen to be one of the very few things not price-adjusted for the regular wage in said country. if every single pirate was a 20+ year old living in a western country and capable but too lazy to get a job, then absolutely, your blanket statements might have a semblance of truth to them, but when you look at your statements from like, a "reality" perspective, then they end up just being.. bitter and resentful.
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hmm, next step in pc gaming: cloud gaming?
needing to authenticate and to load partial content from an online source.
i think that would prevent pirating, or at least make it very difficult...kinda like trying to play pirated sc2 online.
who doesn't have internet these days?
as for those that want to try it out....all pc games should just release demos.
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I bought The Witcher 2 and played through it twice. But apart from that, I wanna mention that companies thinking they can actually fight and "defeat" piracy are not being realistic.
I totally share the opinion of Iwinski not only because I hate Ubisoft for making me go through a lot of anger because of their controlling system being not compatible with my shitty internet connection but also because I think that there will always be somone more clever than the guys in the companies making their "ultra-safe systems" and that will lead to gamers forever being able to play what they want without paying.
The way that can be solved is getting the gamers to the right mentality. And if companies are making them suffer for BUYING the game they are basically committing suicide in a manner of speaking.
And if you aren't convinced of my reasoning think of it that way: You arent stealing every car that seems kinda nice to you are you?
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Didn't read most of the thread, but after reading the OP, and how Dark Souls combats piracy, it reminded me of how Red Alert 2 combated piracy.
You could play a pirated copy for around 30 seconds, maybe a minute, and then suddenly all your units and buildings would explode.
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Why are people defending it? It is still theft. You could argue 'well the developer doesn't always lose because I wouldn't have bought it anyway'
That's like says 'Officer, I didn't do any crime, think about it. I can't afford a brand new Ferrari, so it's not as if Ferrari has lost out on anything because I wouldn't have bought one in the first place'
Why is it only games this sort of 'impulse theft't is justified. Take for example a person in a music store stealing an actual CD. The same could be argued - He wasn't planning on buying it, so the company didn't lose out, and the CD printer didn't lose out either because they already printed the CD that wasn't going to be bought.
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Please stop using examples of stealing tangible objects to condemn the theft of digital products. It is not the same thing.
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Piracy is a civic duty.
Everything I pirate I would not buy anyway (like insignificant movies, music, TV shows, or crappy games)
If that bankrupts the music, film or game industry, and put all these people out of job, all the better, I don't care. Good artists will survive.
I still buy the 1% good games I want to play, I go to the cinema to see the good movies, and by a very small amount of cds/ go to concerts.
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The old-school Ambrosia Studies space simulator "Escape Velocity" had a similar DRM system - if you pirated the game, "Captain Hector" the invincible space pirate would hunt you down and kill you. Repeatedly and without mercy. Until you quit.
Good times...
EDIT - Also, piracy of digital property is not acceptable. Pirates - you are ruining the production of digital media for everyone. Just stop. Man up and pay for stuff.
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On December 01 2011 03:34 jinorazi wrote:
hmm, next step in pc gaming: cloud gaming?
needing to authenticate and to load partial content from an online source.
i think that would prevent pirating, or at least make it very difficult...kinda like trying to play pirated sc2 online.
who doesn't have internet these days?
as for those that want to try it out....all pc games should just release demos.
Bandwidth caps, slow internet speeds and issues with good broadband penetration in bigger countries is a huge issue. Also being dependent on outside servers just to play a single player game isn't a very good feeling (diablo 3 singleplayer for example).
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I use piracy, but if I love a game, I eventually buy it. (Starcraft 2, Battlefield 2142, BC2, Crysis Warhead)
RPG's and racing games are a waste of money.(SinglePlayer anyone?)
Multiplayer focused games should have no other way to play them online without buying them.
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On December 01 2011 03:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 03:22 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 03:10 InterestingName wrote:
Piracy is more of an individual issue. Many of these supposed illegal downloads were made by low budget gamers who never would have been able to buy the $60 dollar titles. For me, it is often hard to find big titles in stores directly after release. Not only that but being a student i rarely have $60 to throw down at release time for a game that i genuinely want to play and pay for. I downloaded Skyrim, and only just bought it yesterday, more than two weeks after. Although i only pay for maybe 1/10th of the games i have illegally downloaded, most of them end up being utter shit that the developer should not be rewarded for. Any want to give me their outrage about how much "Big Rigs" was pirated? The idea of a "low-budget gamer" seems to be the problem here. If something is outside your budget, it shouldn't be your hobby. I want to have my own helicopter as a hobby. I can't afford one. I don't steal one. Simple. "I want this, so I'll steal it since I can't afford it" isn't justification. It's childish behavior. it's actually more like, "I have all the parts needed to build a helicopter in my back yard. but I don't know how to go about it. hm, here's what i'll do, I'll download some instructions on how to manifacture a helicopter so I can build it myself, rather than having to pay an inflated price for something that I already have all the necessary components to enjoy". many gamers are younger than 18, living with their parents, and thus not responsible for their own economic status. in norway, a 16 year old is discouraged from working. (apart from summer jobs.) further, many gamers live in development countries, where computer games happen to be one of the very few things not price-adjusted for the regular wage in said country. if every single pirate was a 20+ year old living in a western country and capable but too lazy to get a job, then absolutely, your blanket statements might have a semblance of truth to them, but when you look at your statements from like, a "reality" perspective, then they end up just being.. bitter and resentful.
That's not even close, though. You don't have the parts for the game, you don't have a framework. You get all the software when you buy/pirate it. If anything, you have a helipad but no helicopter.
The point is, getting a hobby illegally because you can't buy it legally is not a justifiable by any means. It's superfluous to your life, unnecessary, and only there for enjoyment. You won't die if you don't get a game, it's not like you're stealing food to stay alive another day. You're stealing entertainment because you can't afford it/don't want to buy it. You would survive just fine without games.
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Norway28727 Posts
man, the comparison with "stealing physical items" is just.. stupid. if you steal a physical item from a store, or from a person, it means that the store lost an item which it thus couldn't sell and which it thus couldn't gain a profit from, or it means that a person lost an item which he paid money for (and thus would have to spend money on again to continue having).
in the event of piracy, there's no physical item disappearing, but rather, you create a new item without having paid for it. theft of physical item = someone lost something, always. but piracy only results in a loss of profit in the event that the person who pirated would have bought the item if piracy was not an option.
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Remember,
If you cook a pancake for yourself, you are stealing from the coffee house round the corner. They put effort into developing pancakes, but thanks to your theft, they are not getting any money for it. It's not even like you need pancakes. You should not steal something that was not meant to be free, there's no way to go about it.
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United States5162 Posts
On December 01 2011 03:43 dementrio wrote:
Remember,
If you cook a pancake for yourself, you are stealing from the coffee house round the corner. They put effort into developing pancakes, but thanks to your theft, they are not getting any money for it. It's not even like you need pancakes. You should not steal something that was not meant to be free, there's no way to go about it.
Horrible analogy. You didn't take anything that the pancake house produced, and you likely payed for the ingredients that went into the pancake.
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On December 01 2011 03:41 Liquid`Drone wrote:
man, the comparison with "stealing physical items" is just.. stupid. if you steal a physical item from a store, or from a person, it means that the store lost an item which it thus couldn't sell and which it thus couldn't gain a profit from, or it means that a person lost an item which he paid money for (and thus would have to spend money on again to continue having).
in the event of piracy, there's no physical item disappearing, but rather, you create a new item without having paid for it. theft of physical item = someone lost something, always. but piracy only results in a loss of profit in the event that the person who pirated would have bought the item if piracy was not an option.
The problem is that despite being "copied" it still follows the concept of supply and value. Making essentially infinite copies of something makes it valueless. Piracy destroys incentive to create what we perceive as valued games.
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EPT
