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On December 05 2011 10:01 Fishgle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 09:53 t3tsubo wrote:
Since the chancellor refuses to resign, how would things have to pan out for someone with authority over the chancellor to force her resignation? i'm a UC Davis student, and I have no fucking clue why everyone wants the chancellor to resign. The whole protest is completely aimless, unguided, and disjointed. I actually am thanking the casual pepper spray police officer for somewhat uniting and strengthening the movement, but even now there are still a couple hundred students and staff living in tents all over campus with no clue what their next move is. it's supposed to be about the 80% tuiton hike, and honestly the chancellor has very little control over that. It's not her fault the state is drowning in debt and cutting education funding on a yearly basis.
She decided to escalate the situation. Once the police were callled in there was always going to be some form of altercation. The risk of potential harm to the students was much higher because of her actions. The reason she gave for ending the protest was the protesters safety.
Here is my post on the same page as yours. Please read.
Just wanted to say thanks to OP for keeping things updated. It happens so rarely  Show nested quote +edit:: The gist of what happened (this is the tl;dw version, but please watch the entire thing if you have any qualms with my summary)
students are notified in the previous day to clear the quad of tents -> next day police arrive and give out multiple verbal warnings to those still occupying tents that they will be arrested and incarcerated at the county jail -> police arrest only those who still refused to clear their tents from the quad, not the bystanders -> the students surround the police so they physically cannot move out of the circle, and demand that they release the arrested students -> start chanting shit like "let them free and you can leave" and "fuck the police!" -> verbal warnings issued, students take it as a joke -> last resort pepper spray -> bitchfit ensues
This thread has seriously focused on completely the wrong point  Once the police were called to evict the protesters there was always going to be an escalation. Yes, Pepper Spray was extreme. Keep in mind that some other form of force would have been necessary to remove the students. We have argued back and forth about the use of pepper spray but virtually nothing has been said about why the protesters had to leave at all. Activism is a part of student life. There are protests every single day. This one was clearly more permanent than others and so had greater risks. However the reason the chancellor gave for moving the students was that it was hazardhous to their health to stay. That's right, getting pepper sprayed is healthier than living in a tent. The students` protest was illegal and the chancellor had a choice to remove them. Why would you risk the safety of those protesting by calling in the police. First off, ask them to leave. As has been said, some people were already packing up. Yes you would have your hard core few but by calling in the police you are actively escalating the situation. There is a much higher risk of harm for what benefit? People can now walk freely along a path  Chancelor made a huge mistake and the police are paying for it.
People don't want her to resign because of the tuition. They want her to resign because she chose to put the protesters safety at risk. As a chancellor, safety of students should be your first priority. By calling in the police, she escalated the potential for an altercation. Hence the calls for her to resign.
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My problem is that we have the protesters acting relatively stupid and threatening police officers, and police incorrectly using pepper spray, and yet only the cops are getting shit? I'm a college student and I'll also have to deal with rising tuition fees, but what are they trying to accomplish? Good, they brought attention to this issue, but what exactly is arguing with police who may not even know why they're protesting going to do? They made it seem as if they didn't expect that some people would most likely get arrested, and they begin to yell at the police for doing their job. And police, yes they did give out several warnings, but there were definitely some steps in between warnings and pepper spray.
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On December 05 2011 11:52 Dark_Chill wrote:
...I'm a college student and I'll also have to deal with rising tuition fees, but what are they trying to accomplish? Good, they brought attention to this issue, but what exactly is arguing with police who may not even know why they're protesting going to do?...
Just on this site alone. 501 replies; over 25,000 views. The goal might have been change, but the outcome was visibility of the tuition increases, not just for one university, but all across the board for a generation of students who can't get jobs outside of the ivory tower, let alone pay tuition without some sort of financial aid. If things had gone another way, the community currently discussing probably wouldn't. Sure teamliquid keeps up good discussions on seemingly esoteric topics, but it's such a minor population relative to the whole of the net. This story and message of the protest spread like wildfire, whether or not you feel the cops were justified.
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On December 05 2011 10:57 omgimonfire15 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 08:42 HULKAMANIA wrote:On December 04 2011 16:18 omgimonfire15 wrote:On December 04 2011 15:43 Murkinlol wrote:On December 04 2011 11:40 omgimonfire15 wrote:On December 04 2011 07:47 semantics wrote:On December 04 2011 07:45 Froadac wrote:On December 04 2011 07:35 Nightfall.589 wrote:On December 03 2011 16:33 Froadac wrote:On December 03 2011 16:16 Nightfall.589 wrote:
[quote]
Actually, their argument goes down to "The system is unfairly stacked in favour of people who control most of the money." Same damn thing. few people control money who stack the system etc etc. I won't comment on the morality, but I really feel bad for the cop. He isn't a malicious person. He clearly thought at the time that was the correct course of action. According to the Miami approach that is possibly justified under current police thought. Don't make the man out to be a monster: he is simply a man doing what guidelines tell him to. Following orders is not a morally acceptable defense. But morally is surrounding police and telling them they can't leave acceptable? I'm just saying: the man is not inherently evil. But is it morally incorrect to pepper spray those trying to obstruct the arrest of others? They said they can't leave with the people they arrested, they could have left any time they wanted. No offense but that is complete bull. You're saying that police should just give into the demands of protesters and leave because they are obviously right? Who made the protesters god? I guess they should just march up to the police station and tell them they can't leave unless they leave 100,000 dollars for a guy who needs a college fee because he's poor. That's moral right? This kind of protest solves nothing. You waste taxpayers dollars on clean up and police watch while you achieve nothing because the way you protest causes so much controversy. If these guys really want to make a difference, go work in a soup kitchen, donate to charity, volunteer to non-profit organizations that help the community. Also, on the topic of higher college expenses, if you keep your GPA up, then some states give you a scholarship that pays for room/board, books, and pretty much everything besides the tuition. If you then go look up the amount of scholarships out there and apply, then you can potentially pay off your entire college tuition. And don't even get me started on government financial aid. If you do your research and work hard in high school, on academics and extraciriculars, then you can go to college for free. My friend went to emory, whos tuition is 50k+, on a full ride due to scholarships and government aid. I will admit thought not everyone can do this. This is where going to the right school and getting the right major is important. Ya, let's just ignore all the problems wrong with the country, continue to take it up the ass, and just work in soup kitchens to make a real difference. The logic is strong in this one. yeah and what is your solution, protest? Lobby? You have to realize by now they don't care and won't change. And if we do go violent, that would just make us rebels that are selfish. What have you taken up the ass that ha physically or mentally harmed you? Stop being such a pansy,I hate when people claim our country has so many problems and they suffer when they live comfortably and have time to play starcraft when people die like every seven seconds of hunger in the world. Yeah we do have problems, so what? Is it gonna cause us to die? Or is it gonna potentially cause us to not have enough money for internet? People have been saying this since our country was started. They claimed their children are in danger. Is our country still intact? Does their children eat and manage to get money every day? We blow so many things out of proportion, its ridiculous. When we have a serious problem, like North Korea or something is gonna nuke us, call me. In summary ![[image loading]](http://blogs-images.forbes.com/erikkain/files/2011/10/6a00d83451c45669e2014e8c12624c970d-550wi.png) Are you serious? Hey guys everything in Europe and America is fine because we have a higher average quality of life than certain people in Africa and North Korea. We should thank our governments for the status quo rather than work to improve it! Political activism is just self-indulgence! Please make a real argument instead of taking words out of my mouth. First off, I expressed my opinion in my first post that I disagree with the methods of protest that the protesters in the video. Then i expressed my opinion, if people like us (maybe half of the 53% of americans who can pay federal taxes because some have to scrape by) help and educate the poor, then perhaps we would be a lot better off. I also expressed my opinion that we have it good compared to the rest of the world and are in no real danger. Why do i say help and educate the poor? Many who have suffered have made, not to be mean or anything, bad choices in life. Some make bad choice due to pure laziness and selfsatisfaction, but many make bad decisions due to lack of knowledge. They do not study hard in school to maintain a good GPA and do not actively look for scholarships to pay for college. And for those who try but cannot, they choose to go to an expensive college anyways and take out loans without evaluating the ramifications of such actions. Then some of them decide to do an easy major or a major that they really like that does not have good job outlooks. There is nothing wrong with that, but they don't research their majors extensively and realize that the jobs they can get are really competitive and/or low paying. Psychology degrees are a classical example of this. I am a psych major, and read an article on how Psychology majors are the unhappiest majors in America. Further research found that the only job most considered was becoming a counselor or clinical psychologist, which is VERY competitive and requires grad school. They don't research other jobs they can get and when they realize after not getting into grad school that their remaining choice are not what they wanted. Then they find out they have massive debts and are screwed. If you want to get into college for less money, study hard and/or look for scholarships and go to a school that you can afford. Even a lower end college can get you a high paycheck if you try hard and get the right degree. And don't forget to research your degree! This basically sums up the unhappy college graduates situation. There are more examples and it looks like i'm bashing on people in college for being idiots, but its not their fault. They are young, and more importantly, UNEXPERIENCED. If those who had experienced gave them good advice, they would perhaps change their degree, sacrifice a bit of happiness for a healthier future, and gone for delayed gratification. Many in poverty are in similar situations. They are stuck in that cycle because no one tells them they can escape, no one educates them because they are stuck in shit schools, and no one tells them any better. My argument? Instead of protesting inciting police pepper spray attacks and wasting taxpayers dollars, peacefully protest, help those who need help, and the government will notice.This is just my opinion of course and how I think we should approach the situation, what is yours?
To be honest, I can't really make heads or tails of your argument, especially the conclusion, which I have bolded. So you say instead of participating in protests like OWS and its UC counterparts, we should "peacefully protest" (which I assume to you means not yelling things? or else I don't really understand how the UC Davis protest doesn't qualify), help those in need, and wait for the government to notice? And also we should educate the poor about financial aid for college and the job prospects that accompany their future majors?
I have to admit, right now I'm pretty much clueless as to what you're getting at and I remain clueless as to the relevance of your earlier image macro.
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Canada11263 Posts
On December 05 2011 09:58 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 09:53 Paperplane wrote:
Pepper spraying the people sitting down because you feel threatened makes no sense. Those guys are the least of your worries. Using it on the people standing behind the cops would've made more sense to me. I can understand you're very nervous as a cop if there's a crowd standing behind you. This course of action just made them look like a bunch of powertripping idiots. Cops have a job to do. They have arrested people and are now responsible for their safety, as well as their own. A bunch of assholes blocks them from being able to leave the scene. Police have experience and training in situations getting out of control. What would you suggest they have done ? Stand there all night until the protestors got bored ? No. This entire argument is so stupid it's remarkable.
Why not? They're getting paid and the protestors are not. In addition, they'll have to go to the washroom or eat eventually. I really see no reason why they couldn't wait them out and just arrest them when they have to leave. There really was no pressing reason to get rid of them just then. The tents were going down and the protestors were hardly obstructing people from going to or from the university. Sure pepper spray gets compliance, but what exactly was the rush? There's no threat to anyone and no escalating situation with people sitting on the ground.
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On December 05 2011 13:14 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 10:57 omgimonfire15 wrote:On December 05 2011 08:42 HULKAMANIA wrote:On December 04 2011 16:18 omgimonfire15 wrote:On December 04 2011 15:43 Murkinlol wrote:On December 04 2011 11:40 omgimonfire15 wrote:On December 04 2011 07:47 semantics wrote:On December 04 2011 07:45 Froadac wrote:On December 04 2011 07:35 Nightfall.589 wrote:On December 03 2011 16:33 Froadac wrote:
[quote]
Same damn thing. few people control money who stack the system etc etc.
I won't comment on the morality, but I really feel bad for the cop. He isn't a malicious person. He clearly thought at the time that was the correct course of action. According to the Miami approach that is possibly justified under current police thought. Don't make the man out to be a monster: he is simply a man doing what guidelines tell him to.
Following orders is not a morally acceptable defense. But morally is surrounding police and telling them they can't leave acceptable? I'm just saying: the man is not inherently evil. But is it morally incorrect to pepper spray those trying to obstruct the arrest of others? They said they can't leave with the people they arrested, they could have left any time they wanted. No offense but that is complete bull. You're saying that police should just give into the demands of protesters and leave because they are obviously right? Who made the protesters god? I guess they should just march up to the police station and tell them they can't leave unless they leave 100,000 dollars for a guy who needs a college fee because he's poor. That's moral right? This kind of protest solves nothing. You waste taxpayers dollars on clean up and police watch while you achieve nothing because the way you protest causes so much controversy. If these guys really want to make a difference, go work in a soup kitchen, donate to charity, volunteer to non-profit organizations that help the community. Also, on the topic of higher college expenses, if you keep your GPA up, then some states give you a scholarship that pays for room/board, books, and pretty much everything besides the tuition. If you then go look up the amount of scholarships out there and apply, then you can potentially pay off your entire college tuition. And don't even get me started on government financial aid. If you do your research and work hard in high school, on academics and extraciriculars, then you can go to college for free. My friend went to emory, whos tuition is 50k+, on a full ride due to scholarships and government aid. I will admit thought not everyone can do this. This is where going to the right school and getting the right major is important. Ya, let's just ignore all the problems wrong with the country, continue to take it up the ass, and just work in soup kitchens to make a real difference. The logic is strong in this one. yeah and what is your solution, protest? Lobby? You have to realize by now they don't care and won't change. And if we do go violent, that would just make us rebels that are selfish. What have you taken up the ass that ha physically or mentally harmed you? Stop being such a pansy,I hate when people claim our country has so many problems and they suffer when they live comfortably and have time to play starcraft when people die like every seven seconds of hunger in the world. Yeah we do have problems, so what? Is it gonna cause us to die? Or is it gonna potentially cause us to not have enough money for internet? People have been saying this since our country was started. They claimed their children are in danger. Is our country still intact? Does their children eat and manage to get money every day? We blow so many things out of proportion, its ridiculous. When we have a serious problem, like North Korea or something is gonna nuke us, call me. In summary Are you serious? Hey guys everything in Europe and America is fine because we have a higher average quality of life than certain people in Africa and North Korea. We should thank our governments for the status quo rather than work to improve it! Political activism is just self-indulgence! Please make a real argument instead of taking words out of my mouth. First off, I expressed my opinion in my first post that I disagree with the methods of protest that the protesters in the video. Then i expressed my opinion, if people like us (maybe half of the 53% of americans who can pay federal taxes because some have to scrape by) help and educate the poor, then perhaps we would be a lot better off. I also expressed my opinion that we have it good compared to the rest of the world and are in no real danger. Why do i say help and educate the poor? Many who have suffered have made, not to be mean or anything, bad choices in life. Some make bad choice due to pure laziness and selfsatisfaction, but many make bad decisions due to lack of knowledge. They do not study hard in school to maintain a good GPA and do not actively look for scholarships to pay for college. And for those who try but cannot, they choose to go to an expensive college anyways and take out loans without evaluating the ramifications of such actions. Then some of them decide to do an easy major or a major that they really like that does not have good job outlooks. There is nothing wrong with that, but they don't research their majors extensively and realize that the jobs they can get are really competitive and/or low paying. Psychology degrees are a classical example of this. I am a psych major, and read an article on how Psychology majors are the unhappiest majors in America. Further research found that the only job most considered was becoming a counselor or clinical psychologist, which is VERY competitive and requires grad school. They don't research other jobs they can get and when they realize after not getting into grad school that their remaining choice are not what they wanted. Then they find out they have massive debts and are screwed. If you want to get into college for less money, study hard and/or look for scholarships and go to a school that you can afford. Even a lower end college can get you a high paycheck if you try hard and get the right degree. And don't forget to research your degree! This basically sums up the unhappy college graduates situation. There are more examples and it looks like i'm bashing on people in college for being idiots, but its not their fault. They are young, and more importantly, UNEXPERIENCED. If those who had experienced gave them good advice, they would perhaps change their degree, sacrifice a bit of happiness for a healthier future, and gone for delayed gratification. Many in poverty are in similar situations. They are stuck in that cycle because no one tells them they can escape, no one educates them because they are stuck in shit schools, and no one tells them any better. My argument? Instead of protesting inciting police pepper spray attacks and wasting taxpayers dollars, peacefully protest, help those who need help, and the government will notice.This is just my opinion of course and how I think we should approach the situation, what is yours? To be honest, I can't really make heads or tails of your argument, especially the conclusion, which I have bolded. So you say instead of participating in protests like OWS and its UC counterparts, we should "peacefully protest" (which I assume to you means not yelling things? or else I don't really understand how the UC Davis protest doesn't qualify), help those in need, and wait for the government to notice? And also we should educate the poor about financial aid for college and the job prospects that accompany their future majors? I have to admit, right now I'm pretty much clueless as to what you're getting at and I remain clueless as to the relevance of your earlier image macro.
I am confused as to how you cannot understand a simple argument such as that. Its pretty simple really, so i'll put it in list format to help.
1. I disagree with how the people in the video decided to protest. It was not peaceful in any way despite the police attacking them. If I talk shit to a guy at school and he punches me, I am as much in the wrong as he is. Now if you talk shit to a police officer, impede his progress, disregard his warnings, and still incite him, you are clearly in the wrong and he did right. If you say that was a 'peaceful' protest, i personally believe you are mistaken.
2. Please read my entire bulk paragraph that argues for how educating and helping the poor will make america better. I will further this argument. Look at finland's education system. they focus on stimulating their people from birth and the results show. Best education system got them most livable country and most peaceful with some of the happiest people. They keep the kids interested and informed every step of the way. In Amierca? Lack of accountability in public schools. Arguably, a harmful culture with the wrong mindset and goals along with lack of passion and focus amongst youth. This leads to ignorance and ignorance leads to making terrible decisions. Terrible decisions leads to situations you see where people find out that their degree in philosophy and the grades they got isn't gonna let them live in two story house with a family of four. If we want to change america, we have to change it from the bottom up. We can't change our education system overnight, but we can help those who don't have the same opportunities as us know that they can grow up successful and happy if they make the right decisions and stay focused.
3. My picture is another argument claiming that we have it better off then 99% of the people on earth. On a mission trip to costa rica, i saw children living in wooden huts on mountains that slept on planks. But they were 100 times happier then any child i have seen in america without the comfort. Do I like how I live? hell yeah! But can I live without it? you bet your sweet ass i can. I personally find it stupid that we protest rising college fees when people in the world are being oppressed by the government, starve, and live through natural disasters when we have the opportunity to go to college, play starcraft for fun, and can eat so much that we have the highest obesity levels in the world.
P.S. you still lack an argument at all.
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On December 05 2011 13:51 omgimonfire15 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 13:14 HULKAMANIA wrote:On December 05 2011 10:57 omgimonfire15 wrote:On December 05 2011 08:42 HULKAMANIA wrote:On December 04 2011 16:18 omgimonfire15 wrote:On December 04 2011 15:43 Murkinlol wrote:On December 04 2011 11:40 omgimonfire15 wrote:On December 04 2011 07:47 semantics wrote:On December 04 2011 07:45 Froadac wrote:On December 04 2011 07:35 Nightfall.589 wrote:
[quote]
Following orders is not a morally acceptable defense.
But morally is surrounding police and telling them they can't leave acceptable? I'm just saying: the man is not inherently evil. But is it morally incorrect to pepper spray those trying to obstruct the arrest of others? They said they can't leave with the people they arrested, they could have left any time they wanted. No offense but that is complete bull. You're saying that police should just give into the demands of protesters and leave because they are obviously right? Who made the protesters god? I guess they should just march up to the police station and tell them they can't leave unless they leave 100,000 dollars for a guy who needs a college fee because he's poor. That's moral right? This kind of protest solves nothing. You waste taxpayers dollars on clean up and police watch while you achieve nothing because the way you protest causes so much controversy. If these guys really want to make a difference, go work in a soup kitchen, donate to charity, volunteer to non-profit organizations that help the community. Also, on the topic of higher college expenses, if you keep your GPA up, then some states give you a scholarship that pays for room/board, books, and pretty much everything besides the tuition. If you then go look up the amount of scholarships out there and apply, then you can potentially pay off your entire college tuition. And don't even get me started on government financial aid. If you do your research and work hard in high school, on academics and extraciriculars, then you can go to college for free. My friend went to emory, whos tuition is 50k+, on a full ride due to scholarships and government aid. I will admit thought not everyone can do this. This is where going to the right school and getting the right major is important. Ya, let's just ignore all the problems wrong with the country, continue to take it up the ass, and just work in soup kitchens to make a real difference. The logic is strong in this one. yeah and what is your solution, protest? Lobby? You have to realize by now they don't care and won't change. And if we do go violent, that would just make us rebels that are selfish. What have you taken up the ass that ha physically or mentally harmed you? Stop being such a pansy,I hate when people claim our country has so many problems and they suffer when they live comfortably and have time to play starcraft when people die like every seven seconds of hunger in the world. Yeah we do have problems, so what? Is it gonna cause us to die? Or is it gonna potentially cause us to not have enough money for internet? People have been saying this since our country was started. They claimed their children are in danger. Is our country still intact? Does their children eat and manage to get money every day? We blow so many things out of proportion, its ridiculous. When we have a serious problem, like North Korea or something is gonna nuke us, call me. In summary Are you serious? Hey guys everything in Europe and America is fine because we have a higher average quality of life than certain people in Africa and North Korea. We should thank our governments for the status quo rather than work to improve it! Political activism is just self-indulgence! Please make a real argument instead of taking words out of my mouth. First off, I expressed my opinion in my first post that I disagree with the methods of protest that the protesters in the video. Then i expressed my opinion, if people like us (maybe half of the 53% of americans who can pay federal taxes because some have to scrape by) help and educate the poor, then perhaps we would be a lot better off. I also expressed my opinion that we have it good compared to the rest of the world and are in no real danger. Why do i say help and educate the poor? Many who have suffered have made, not to be mean or anything, bad choices in life. Some make bad choice due to pure laziness and selfsatisfaction, but many make bad decisions due to lack of knowledge. They do not study hard in school to maintain a good GPA and do not actively look for scholarships to pay for college. And for those who try but cannot, they choose to go to an expensive college anyways and take out loans without evaluating the ramifications of such actions. Then some of them decide to do an easy major or a major that they really like that does not have good job outlooks. There is nothing wrong with that, but they don't research their majors extensively and realize that the jobs they can get are really competitive and/or low paying. Psychology degrees are a classical example of this. I am a psych major, and read an article on how Psychology majors are the unhappiest majors in America. Further research found that the only job most considered was becoming a counselor or clinical psychologist, which is VERY competitive and requires grad school. They don't research other jobs they can get and when they realize after not getting into grad school that their remaining choice are not what they wanted. Then they find out they have massive debts and are screwed. If you want to get into college for less money, study hard and/or look for scholarships and go to a school that you can afford. Even a lower end college can get you a high paycheck if you try hard and get the right degree. And don't forget to research your degree! This basically sums up the unhappy college graduates situation. There are more examples and it looks like i'm bashing on people in college for being idiots, but its not their fault. They are young, and more importantly, UNEXPERIENCED. If those who had experienced gave them good advice, they would perhaps change their degree, sacrifice a bit of happiness for a healthier future, and gone for delayed gratification. Many in poverty are in similar situations. They are stuck in that cycle because no one tells them they can escape, no one educates them because they are stuck in shit schools, and no one tells them any better. My argument? Instead of protesting inciting police pepper spray attacks and wasting taxpayers dollars, peacefully protest, help those who need help, and the government will notice.This is just my opinion of course and how I think we should approach the situation, what is yours? To be honest, I can't really make heads or tails of your argument, especially the conclusion, which I have bolded. So you say instead of participating in protests like OWS and its UC counterparts, we should "peacefully protest" (which I assume to you means not yelling things? or else I don't really understand how the UC Davis protest doesn't qualify), help those in need, and wait for the government to notice? And also we should educate the poor about financial aid for college and the job prospects that accompany their future majors? I have to admit, right now I'm pretty much clueless as to what you're getting at and I remain clueless as to the relevance of your earlier image macro. I am confused as to how you cannot understand a simple argument such as that. Its pretty simple really, so i'll put it in list format to help. 1. I disagree with how the people in the video decided to protest. It was not peaceful in any way despite the police attacking them. If I talk shit to a guy at school and he punches me, I am as much in the wrong as he is. Now if you talk shit to a police officer, impede his progress, disregard his warnings, and still incite him, you are clearly in the wrong and he did right. If you say that was a 'peaceful' protest, i personally believe you are mistaken. 2. Please read my entire bulk paragraph that argues for how educating and helping the poor will make america better. I will further this argument. Look at finland's education system. they focus on stimulating their people from birth and the results show. Best education system got them most livable country and most peaceful with some of the happiest people. They keep the kids interested and informed every step of the way. In Amierca? Lack of accountability in public schools. Arguably, a harmful culture with the wrong mindset and goals along with lack of passion and focus amongst youth. This leads to ignorance and ignorance leads to making terrible decisions. Terrible decisions leads to situations you see where people find out that their degree in philosophy and the grades they got isn't gonna let them live in two story house with a family of four. If we want to change america, we have to change it from the bottom up. We can't change our education system overnight, but we can help those who don't have the same opportunities as us know that they can grow up successful and happy if they make the right decisions and stay focused. 3. My picture is another argument claiming that we have it better off then 99% of the people on earth. On a mission trip to costa rica, i saw children living in wooden huts on mountains that slept on planks. But they were 100 times happier then any child i have seen in america without the comfort. Do I like how I live? hell yeah! But can I live without it? you bet your sweet ass i can. I personally find it stupid that we protest rising college fees when people in the world are being oppressed by the government, starve, and live through natural disasters when we have the opportunity to go to college, play starcraft for fun, and can eat so much that we have the highest obesity levels in the world. P.S. you still lack an argument at all.
Not using violence means non violent. Talking shit is annoying and non-violent. Blocking a sidewalk or whatever it was is annoying and non-violent. Playing your music too loud is annoying and non-violent. Being annoying does not imply violent. Do you even know what non-violent means?
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On December 05 2011 13:51 omgimonfire15 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 13:14 HULKAMANIA wrote:On December 05 2011 10:57 omgimonfire15 wrote:On December 05 2011 08:42 HULKAMANIA wrote:On December 04 2011 16:18 omgimonfire15 wrote:On December 04 2011 15:43 Murkinlol wrote:On December 04 2011 11:40 omgimonfire15 wrote:On December 04 2011 07:47 semantics wrote:On December 04 2011 07:45 Froadac wrote:On December 04 2011 07:35 Nightfall.589 wrote:
[quote]
Following orders is not a morally acceptable defense.
But morally is surrounding police and telling them they can't leave acceptable? I'm just saying: the man is not inherently evil. But is it morally incorrect to pepper spray those trying to obstruct the arrest of others? They said they can't leave with the people they arrested, they could have left any time they wanted. No offense but that is complete bull. You're saying that police should just give into the demands of protesters and leave because they are obviously right? Who made the protesters god? I guess they should just march up to the police station and tell them they can't leave unless they leave 100,000 dollars for a guy who needs a college fee because he's poor. That's moral right? This kind of protest solves nothing. You waste taxpayers dollars on clean up and police watch while you achieve nothing because the way you protest causes so much controversy. If these guys really want to make a difference, go work in a soup kitchen, donate to charity, volunteer to non-profit organizations that help the community. Also, on the topic of higher college expenses, if you keep your GPA up, then some states give you a scholarship that pays for room/board, books, and pretty much everything besides the tuition. If you then go look up the amount of scholarships out there and apply, then you can potentially pay off your entire college tuition. And don't even get me started on government financial aid. If you do your research and work hard in high school, on academics and extraciriculars, then you can go to college for free. My friend went to emory, whos tuition is 50k+, on a full ride due to scholarships and government aid. I will admit thought not everyone can do this. This is where going to the right school and getting the right major is important. Ya, let's just ignore all the problems wrong with the country, continue to take it up the ass, and just work in soup kitchens to make a real difference. The logic is strong in this one. yeah and what is your solution, protest? Lobby? You have to realize by now they don't care and won't change. And if we do go violent, that would just make us rebels that are selfish. What have you taken up the ass that ha physically or mentally harmed you? Stop being such a pansy,I hate when people claim our country has so many problems and they suffer when they live comfortably and have time to play starcraft when people die like every seven seconds of hunger in the world. Yeah we do have problems, so what? Is it gonna cause us to die? Or is it gonna potentially cause us to not have enough money for internet? People have been saying this since our country was started. They claimed their children are in danger. Is our country still intact? Does their children eat and manage to get money every day? We blow so many things out of proportion, its ridiculous. When we have a serious problem, like North Korea or something is gonna nuke us, call me. In summary Are you serious? Hey guys everything in Europe and America is fine because we have a higher average quality of life than certain people in Africa and North Korea. We should thank our governments for the status quo rather than work to improve it! Political activism is just self-indulgence! Please make a real argument instead of taking words out of my mouth. First off, I expressed my opinion in my first post that I disagree with the methods of protest that the protesters in the video. Then i expressed my opinion, if people like us (maybe half of the 53% of americans who can pay federal taxes because some have to scrape by) help and educate the poor, then perhaps we would be a lot better off. I also expressed my opinion that we have it good compared to the rest of the world and are in no real danger. Why do i say help and educate the poor? Many who have suffered have made, not to be mean or anything, bad choices in life. Some make bad choice due to pure laziness and selfsatisfaction, but many make bad decisions due to lack of knowledge. They do not study hard in school to maintain a good GPA and do not actively look for scholarships to pay for college. And for those who try but cannot, they choose to go to an expensive college anyways and take out loans without evaluating the ramifications of such actions. Then some of them decide to do an easy major or a major that they really like that does not have good job outlooks. There is nothing wrong with that, but they don't research their majors extensively and realize that the jobs they can get are really competitive and/or low paying. Psychology degrees are a classical example of this. I am a psych major, and read an article on how Psychology majors are the unhappiest majors in America. Further research found that the only job most considered was becoming a counselor or clinical psychologist, which is VERY competitive and requires grad school. They don't research other jobs they can get and when they realize after not getting into grad school that their remaining choice are not what they wanted. Then they find out they have massive debts and are screwed. If you want to get into college for less money, study hard and/or look for scholarships and go to a school that you can afford. Even a lower end college can get you a high paycheck if you try hard and get the right degree. And don't forget to research your degree! This basically sums up the unhappy college graduates situation. There are more examples and it looks like i'm bashing on people in college for being idiots, but its not their fault. They are young, and more importantly, UNEXPERIENCED. If those who had experienced gave them good advice, they would perhaps change their degree, sacrifice a bit of happiness for a healthier future, and gone for delayed gratification. Many in poverty are in similar situations. They are stuck in that cycle because no one tells them they can escape, no one educates them because they are stuck in shit schools, and no one tells them any better. My argument? Instead of protesting inciting police pepper spray attacks and wasting taxpayers dollars, peacefully protest, help those who need help, and the government will notice.This is just my opinion of course and how I think we should approach the situation, what is yours? To be honest, I can't really make heads or tails of your argument, especially the conclusion, which I have bolded. So you say instead of participating in protests like OWS and its UC counterparts, we should "peacefully protest" (which I assume to you means not yelling things? or else I don't really understand how the UC Davis protest doesn't qualify), help those in need, and wait for the government to notice? And also we should educate the poor about financial aid for college and the job prospects that accompany their future majors? I have to admit, right now I'm pretty much clueless as to what you're getting at and I remain clueless as to the relevance of your earlier image macro. I am confused as to how you cannot understand a simple argument such as that. Its pretty simple really, so i'll put it in list format to help. 1. I disagree with how the people in the video decided to protest. It was not peaceful in any way despite the police attacking them. If I talk shit to a guy at school and he punches me, I am as much in the wrong as he is. Now if you talk shit to a police officer, impede his progress, disregard his warnings, and still incite him, you are clearly in the wrong and he did right. If you say that was a 'peaceful' protest, i personally believe you are mistaken. 2. Please read my entire bulk paragraph that argues for how educating and helping the poor will make america better. I will further this argument. Look at finland's education system. they focus on stimulating their people from birth and the results show. Best education system got them most livable country and most peaceful with some of the happiest people. They keep the kids interested and informed every step of the way. In Amierca? Lack of accountability in public schools. Arguably, a harmful culture with the wrong mindset and goals along with lack of passion and focus amongst youth. This leads to ignorance and ignorance leads to making terrible decisions. Terrible decisions leads to situations you see where people find out that their degree in philosophy and the grades they got isn't gonna let them live in two story house with a family of four. If we want to change america, we have to change it from the bottom up. We can't change our education system overnight, but we can help those who don't have the same opportunities as us know that they can grow up successful and happy if they make the right decisions and stay focused. 3. My picture is another argument claiming that we have it better off then 99% of the people on earth. On a mission trip to costa rica, i saw children living in wooden huts on mountains that slept on planks. But they were 100 times happier then any child i have seen in america without the comfort. Do I like how I live? hell yeah! But can I live without it? you bet your sweet ass i can. I personally find it stupid that we protest rising college fees when people in the world are being oppressed by the government, starve, and live through natural disasters when we have the opportunity to go to college, play starcraft for fun, and can eat so much that we have the highest obesity levels in the world. P.S. you still lack an argument at all.
1. So in your estimation, police should be allowed to physically attack protesters who yell hurtful things at them? At what volume level (or is more of a meanness rating sort of thing) does someone cross the line from peaceful protester to non-peaceful protester?
2. I think you're confusing the poor, who rarely attend college at all, with the middle and upper class, who attend college and take out large loans to attain non- or semi-profitable degrees. And at any rate "educating the poor" would require tremendous political resources and a upheaval of the status quo, which leaves a great deal of impoverished children trapped in underfunded and shitty inner-city schools. Your line of argument is an old and frankly insulting one: "If only poor people knew how to live their lives as intelligently as us better off people, we wouldn't have this mess on our hands."
And we should look to Finland? Nothing but love for Finland, but their entire population is a million or so over half that of New York City's. And they are much more culturally and ethnically homogenous than the U.S.A. You could say that the educational system of America faces a different set of obstacles than the educational system of Finland and it would be a gross understatement.
3. Once again I am stumped. Yes, we are better off than a lot of other countries. No, that doesn't mean we shouldn't address perceived injustices or imperfections in the sphere of higher education or politics. Rising tuition costs have farther reaching consequences than merely pissing off self-entitled college kids. Just off the top of my head, they could, I dunno, pose problems for getting the poor their much needed education on how to properly run their lives.
And also saying that the UC Davis protests at which the kids were pepper sprayed were simply about rising tuition is a bit reductionist. But I have a sneaking suspicion that overly reductionist might be a habitual disposition where you're concerned.
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i just wanna throw this out there... the protesters were indeed non violent... but on the other hand their stance, the shouting, surrounding, blocking the path of police, is all considered a aggressive stance... well at least i would take it as a aggressive stance. so yea... the crowd wasn't violent but it definitely was aggressive. I think this is a pretty safe statement at least 
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On December 05 2011 13:15 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 09:58 Kaitlin wrote:On December 05 2011 09:53 Paperplane wrote:
Pepper spraying the people sitting down because you feel threatened makes no sense. Those guys are the least of your worries. Using it on the people standing behind the cops would've made more sense to me. I can understand you're very nervous as a cop if there's a crowd standing behind you. This course of action just made them look like a bunch of powertripping idiots. Cops have a job to do. They have arrested people and are now responsible for their safety, as well as their own. A bunch of assholes blocks them from being able to leave the scene. Police have experience and training in situations getting out of control. What would you suggest they have done ? Stand there all night until the protestors got bored ? No. This entire argument is so stupid it's remarkable. Why not? They're getting paid and the protestors are not. In addition, they'll have to go to the washroom or eat eventually. I really see no reason why they couldn't wait them out and just arrest them when they have to leave. There really was no pressing reason to get rid of them just then. The tents were going down and the protestors were hardly obstructing people from going to or from the university. Sure pepper spray gets compliance, but what exactly was the rush? There's no threat to anyone and no escalating situation with people sitting on the ground.
Why not ? How about because they are fucking law enforcement officers, not babysitters. They were called there to clear up the illegal protest. Are you telling me that if you get pulled over in Canada, instead of giving your driver's license and insurance or whatever, you can simply sit there peacefully and the officer can't do anything but wait by the side of the road until such time as you need to take a piss or get hungry. That is fucking retarded. In OWS, the cops were called there simply to maintain order, a just in case scenario, so they just kept a presence on the scene. At Davis, those cops were called to remove the tents, not to fucking babysit a bunch of entitled brats. Unbelievable stupidity these days.
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I could understand where they were coming from. As financial aid is not rising in the same line that college tuition is going up, it makes sense to protest against these costs. Many of the cost increases are not needed, I would know, I work closely with my schools business department. The increases of cost for my school are because they recently converted from a community college to a state college and are now looking at increasing campus size, providing on-campus dorms, and increased facilities. Are these changes needed? Not necessarily. With the increase in revenue for being able to offer a cheaper education and more students coming to our new state college, the school should've secured loans or relied on current funds allocated for these changes. However they wanted to do it all up front and my tuition alone has increased by 2,000 in 1 year alone. I agree it was illegal, but seriously... People are saying they were blocking walkways (well go around), and if you want let them sit there all day if you want. The even was peaceful to try getting a peaceful resolution or at least an audience to voice concerns to the chancellor. For the chancellor to throw the power-card on them seems a little overzealous of her position.
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On December 05 2011 15:09 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 13:15 Falling wrote:On December 05 2011 09:58 Kaitlin wrote:On December 05 2011 09:53 Paperplane wrote:
Pepper spraying the people sitting down because you feel threatened makes no sense. Those guys are the least of your worries. Using it on the people standing behind the cops would've made more sense to me. I can understand you're very nervous as a cop if there's a crowd standing behind you. This course of action just made them look like a bunch of powertripping idiots. Cops have a job to do. They have arrested people and are now responsible for their safety, as well as their own. A bunch of assholes blocks them from being able to leave the scene. Police have experience and training in situations getting out of control. What would you suggest they have done ? Stand there all night until the protestors got bored ? No. This entire argument is so stupid it's remarkable. Why not? They're getting paid and the protestors are not. In addition, they'll have to go to the washroom or eat eventually. I really see no reason why they couldn't wait them out and just arrest them when they have to leave. There really was no pressing reason to get rid of them just then. The tents were going down and the protestors were hardly obstructing people from going to or from the university. Sure pepper spray gets compliance, but what exactly was the rush? There's no threat to anyone and no escalating situation with people sitting on the ground. Why not ? How about because they are fucking law enforcement officers, not babysitters. They were called there to clear up the illegal protest. Are you telling me that if you get pulled over in Canada, instead of giving your driver's license and insurance or whatever, you can simply sit there peacefully and the officer can't do anything but wait by the side of the road until such time as you need to take a piss or get hungry. That is fucking retarded. In OWS, the cops were called there simply to maintain order, a just in case scenario, so they just kept a presence on the scene. At Davis, those cops were called to remove the tents, not to fucking babysit a bunch of entitled brats. Unbelievable stupidity these days.
They could just carry the ones they want to arrest into the police van. The pepper spray and beatings with batons are just lazy.
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On December 05 2011 15:29 Ropid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 15:09 Kaitlin wrote:On December 05 2011 13:15 Falling wrote:On December 05 2011 09:58 Kaitlin wrote:On December 05 2011 09:53 Paperplane wrote:
Pepper spraying the people sitting down because you feel threatened makes no sense. Those guys are the least of your worries. Using it on the people standing behind the cops would've made more sense to me. I can understand you're very nervous as a cop if there's a crowd standing behind you. This course of action just made them look like a bunch of powertripping idiots. Cops have a job to do. They have arrested people and are now responsible for their safety, as well as their own. A bunch of assholes blocks them from being able to leave the scene. Police have experience and training in situations getting out of control. What would you suggest they have done ? Stand there all night until the protestors got bored ? No. This entire argument is so stupid it's remarkable. Why not? They're getting paid and the protestors are not. In addition, they'll have to go to the washroom or eat eventually. I really see no reason why they couldn't wait them out and just arrest them when they have to leave. There really was no pressing reason to get rid of them just then. The tents were going down and the protestors were hardly obstructing people from going to or from the university. Sure pepper spray gets compliance, but what exactly was the rush? There's no threat to anyone and no escalating situation with people sitting on the ground. Why not ? How about because they are fucking law enforcement officers, not babysitters. They were called there to clear up the illegal protest. Are you telling me that if you get pulled over in Canada, instead of giving your driver's license and insurance or whatever, you can simply sit there peacefully and the officer can't do anything but wait by the side of the road until such time as you need to take a piss or get hungry. That is fucking retarded. In OWS, the cops were called there simply to maintain order, a just in case scenario, so they just kept a presence on the scene. At Davis, those cops were called to remove the tents, not to fucking babysit a bunch of entitled brats. Unbelievable stupidity these days. They could just carry the ones they want to arrest into the police van. The pepper spray and beatings with batons are just lazy.
The cops were surrounded. People seem to think cops are supposed to follow a set of rules pulled out of a critique's ass. Cops are trained on Usage of Force and they applied their training to the situation. If you haven't made any effort to actually learn what cops are actually trained to do, there really is no validity to criticism.
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Instead of watching the edited video in OP, watch the whole thing. Protesters surrounded cops and demanded they release arrested individuals. That is on the level of assaulting officer and domestic terrorism.
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Let's ignore the questions about the Chancellor for a second and focus on John Pike.
Whether what the protesters were doing was illegal or not is irrelevant.
Whether they needed to be removed is irrelevant.
The cops were in no real danger. People saying that the cops were "surrounded" (like Kaitlin) are either mistaken or idiots. The students were chanting "you can leave." You can hear it in a lot of the videos.
The only issue here is whether pepperspraying a bunch of kids who were sitting down was an appropriate use of force.
Obviously it wasn't. Anyone who thinks it was is a lunatic. I don't even have to explain why. There was no danger to anyone, no harm being done, and no major crime. The cop should be fired (at the very least) for extreme excessive use of force.
Edit: From Wikipedia, Ron Christie described it as "excessive force" saying, "I wouldn't call that pepper-spray, I'd say that was a pepper-hose."
Pepper-hose. I like that. They used it against people that easily could have been moved aside.
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On December 05 2011 15:34 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 15:29 Ropid wrote:On December 05 2011 15:09 Kaitlin wrote:On December 05 2011 13:15 Falling wrote:On December 05 2011 09:58 Kaitlin wrote:On December 05 2011 09:53 Paperplane wrote:
Pepper spraying the people sitting down because you feel threatened makes no sense. Those guys are the least of your worries. Using it on the people standing behind the cops would've made more sense to me. I can understand you're very nervous as a cop if there's a crowd standing behind you. This course of action just made them look like a bunch of powertripping idiots. Cops have a job to do. They have arrested people and are now responsible for their safety, as well as their own. A bunch of assholes blocks them from being able to leave the scene. Police have experience and training in situations getting out of control. What would you suggest they have done ? Stand there all night until the protestors got bored ? No. This entire argument is so stupid it's remarkable. Why not? They're getting paid and the protestors are not. In addition, they'll have to go to the washroom or eat eventually. I really see no reason why they couldn't wait them out and just arrest them when they have to leave. There really was no pressing reason to get rid of them just then. The tents were going down and the protestors were hardly obstructing people from going to or from the university. Sure pepper spray gets compliance, but what exactly was the rush? There's no threat to anyone and no escalating situation with people sitting on the ground. Why not ? How about because they are fucking law enforcement officers, not babysitters. They were called there to clear up the illegal protest. Are you telling me that if you get pulled over in Canada, instead of giving your driver's license and insurance or whatever, you can simply sit there peacefully and the officer can't do anything but wait by the side of the road until such time as you need to take a piss or get hungry. That is fucking retarded. In OWS, the cops were called there simply to maintain order, a just in case scenario, so they just kept a presence on the scene. At Davis, those cops were called to remove the tents, not to fucking babysit a bunch of entitled brats. Unbelievable stupidity these days. They could just carry the ones they want to arrest into the police van. The pepper spray and beatings with batons are just lazy. The cops were surrounded. People seem to think cops are supposed to follow a set of rules pulled out of a critique's ass. Cops are trained on Usage of Force and they applied their training to the situation. If you haven't made any effort to actually learn what cops are actually trained to do, there really is no validity to criticism.
I was thinking of your last sentence "unbelievable stupidity these days", and I happen to think the US cops nowadays produce weirdly stupid stories, like taser use against old, handicapped people, for example, which is pure laziness. If they do not show up with enough men to get by with some old fashioned manhandling, the officers should just give up and phone their superiors instead of using chemicals or other toys that are not justified to use against anyone who is not violent. There is something broken about the lack of empathy there. Why use shit that hurts if you can get by without it?
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On December 05 2011 15:50 Ripps wrote:
Let's ignore the questions about the Chancellor for a second and focus on John Pike.
Whether what the protesters were doing was illegal or not is irrelevant.
Whether they needed to be removed is irrelevant.
The cops were in no real danger. People saying that the cops were "surrounded" (like Kaitlin) are either mistaken or idiots. The students were chanting "you can leave." You can hear it in a lot of the videos.
The only issue here is whether pepperspraying a bunch of kids who were sitting down was an appropriate use of force.
Obviously it wasn't. Anyone who thinks it was is a lunatic. I don't even have to explain why. There was no danger to anyone, no harm being done, and no major crime. The cop should be fired (at the very least) for extreme excessive use of force.
They were chanting you can leave while surrounding the cops and demanding they release arrested individuals.
The protesters were warned multiple times to let the Police through.
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Reading through many of these posts i must be missing something.... Some of the reasons put forward for the cops actions seem to be that the protesters were if not violent, very aggressive and threatening as a group... so thats why they decided to pepper spray the handful of people sitting on the ground?
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On November 23 2011 00:13 hongo wrote:
I agree that the use of pepper spray was extreme, but I don't think it was out of the question. People are acting like this causes permanent damage and serious injury, and if it had lead to some serious health hazard it would have become public knowledge by know. While these kids were not violently attacking the policemen, they had formed a circle around them and were chanting at them. I feel like that is a very stressful situation to any cop, and all it takes is one thrown rock to lead to them shooting their rubber bullets. Just spraying them down seemed to be a none lethal way to disperse the crowd and did not lead to any more conflict. If they had walked up and started beating them with their batons, then that would have definitely been an issue.
Two people needed to be hospitalized. Overnight.
One was coughing up blood for 45 minutes. It's an acid burn.
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The cops were surrounded by students sitting down with their arms locked with each other. This should be edited into the OP, as some people leave the latter of that sentence out. How are arms going to punch if they are locked with other arms that belong to sitting bodies? Is there really any threat to interlocked arms?
And can the cops not walk over the arms? They would have a hard time walking over a full body, but there's some space in between the bodies.
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EPT
