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On October 29 2011 01:51 cleansingpak wrote:mod edit~ 
because assaulting another member of humanity with ill intent is against the law
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United States7483 Posts
On October 29 2011 01:51 cleansingpak wrote:Bunch of bigoted homophobic nonsense.
What the fuck is wrong with you?
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I'm amazed at how many people are glossing over this and thinking 3 days suspension is sufficient. Around here, you get more than that from pretty much any school yard tussle and this went far beyond a fight, it was premediated assault. "School fights happen all the time" is such a flabbergasting response that I actually facepalmed...
Take the exact same incident and put it in an alley or outside of a bar instead of a class room. Does your opinion change then? It really shouldn't. I don't care that the kid's gay. This is disgusting even without the whole hate crime aspect.
For what it's worth, when I was in grade 9 (youngest grade in the school), a grade 13 guy (oldest grade in the school) was picking on me because my locker was next to his girlfriend's. One day he decided to get violent and I didn't react, which just pissed him off more. He threw a punch, I dodged, he hit my locker door and broke his hand. I calmly walked away, making sure he wasn't following, and went to tell the director's office that he might need some medical attention. I got off scott free and he got 2 weeks suspension... and this guy never even connected with a single hit.
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On October 29 2011 01:50 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 01:34 aderum wrote:On October 29 2011 01:30 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:22 Iyerbeth wrote:On October 29 2011 01:20 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:18 Iyerbeth wrote:On October 29 2011 01:13 Carny wrote:
Wtf is up here. I only see gay threads on the board. Has TL become some sort of Gay Sanctuary?
Don't wanna sound homophobic but it's kinda disgusting to see these kind of threads everytime I visit TL... Imagine how the gay community feels waking up every day to the same news about homophobic bullying, abuse and on occasion murders. I don't think anyone wants to see these stories, but the problem isn't about raiding awareness of the issue, it's that the events occur in the first place. It's more like they are searching something to get "offended". There are a shitload of bad things happening right now in the world and every community could find enough materials to make a thousand post on TL a day. If you genuinely think that this topic is people looking for something to be offended by there is nothing I could say in conversation that would ever achieve anything. Suffice to say though, I find that attitude sickening. I'm sorry if I offended you, but sometime it's better to take some distance with the day-to-day events and try to think carefully about the world as a whole and not some tiny events that mean almost nothing if you put them back in the big picture. Sure, it's hard to get beaten, especially if the only reason for that is that you are "different", but you also got to try to get out of yourself and replace your own experience into the world : there are a lot of young kids that get beaten for a thousands of reasons. So let's not stop on the details (here the details being : he is gay) and try to confront the big problem which is the violence toward young kids with any kind of difference from the norm. So because kids get beaten up every day, we should not care? Doesnt that mean that we should just fight harder and give harder punishment for these things so that it stops? Your attitude against something ass disgusting as this is saddening  I believe that kids get beaten up every day is a problem and must solve it, and discourage the behavior but we shouldn't make it different case for gays, All bullies punished for bullying, status of the victim shouldn't come into play, the intention could be taken into account though, but Bullying straight kids is as bad as bullying gays and bullying everyone else. We should not make special cases about victim status. Basically, punish the crime for what it is, not for who it is done to Example Thief stole from gay, punished for thievery, not for punished for stealing from a gay
Wow thats the most stupid example in this thread so far. The bully in question didnt beat up a kid that happend to be gay, he beat up a kid BECAUSE he was gay. Can you see the different and why we need to be harsh about crimes like that?
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On October 29 2011 01:55 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 01:51 cleansingpak wrote:Bunch of bigoted homophobic nonsense. What the fuck is wrong with you?
This guy is probably a 13 year old in texas that want to be cool and make the muslims look bad. I hope he gets a perm ban and i hope he will grow up..
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On October 29 2011 01:50 drshdwpuppet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 01:46 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:41 drshdwpuppet wrote:On October 29 2011 01:30 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:22 Iyerbeth wrote:On October 29 2011 01:20 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:18 Iyerbeth wrote:On October 29 2011 01:13 Carny wrote:
Wtf is up here. I only see gay threads on the board. Has TL become some sort of Gay Sanctuary?
Don't wanna sound homophobic but it's kinda disgusting to see these kind of threads everytime I visit TL... Imagine how the gay community feels waking up every day to the same news about homophobic bullying, abuse and on occasion murders. I don't think anyone wants to see these stories, but the problem isn't about raiding awareness of the issue, it's that the events occur in the first place. It's more like they are searching something to get "offended". There are a shitload of bad things happening right now in the world and every community could find enough materials to make a thousand post on TL a day. If you genuinely think that this topic is people looking for something to be offended by there is nothing I could say in conversation that would ever achieve anything. Suffice to say though, I find that attitude sickening. I'm sorry if I offended you, but sometime it's better to take some distance with the day-to-day events and try to think carefully about the world as a whole and not some tiny events that mean almost nothing if you put them back in the big picture. Sure, it's hard to get beaten, especially if the only reason for that is that you are "different", but you also got to try to get out of yourself and replace your own experience into the world : there are a lot of young kids that get beaten for a thousands of reasons. So let's not stop on the details (here the details being : he is gay) and try to confront the big problem which is the violence toward young kids with any kind of difference from the norm. Here are some bigger picture things for you to consider "Gay youth are two to four times more likely to be threatened with a deadly weapon at school and miss more days of school than their heterosexual peers. Further, they are two to seven times more likely to attempt suicide. These issues, the societal stigma around homosexuality and fear of bias-motivated attack, lead to gay men and women, especially teenagers, becoming more likely to abuse drugs such as marijuana and cocaine and alcohol, have unprotected sex with multiple sexual partners, find themselves in unwanted sexual situations, have body image and eating disorders, and be at higher risk for STDs and HIV/AIDS." ( "Gay Adolescents and Suicide: Understanding the Association.". Adolescence. 2005 .http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2248/is_159_40/ai_n15950408/) The point is that there are indeed lots of kids that get beaten up every day for thousands of reasons. It is just that there is a larger percentage of gay kids being beaten up because they are gay than heterosexual kids for other reasons. I am curious as to how you look at the world as a whole. Because while it is true that this particular event is fairly insignificant in the grand scheme, the way that I, and most logical, rational people I know, analyze the world and its problems is by looking at trends. Trends are important for discovering how and why things are the way they are and how we can fix them. I see a trend of gay bullying, assault, bias motivated crimes and hatred. I see a problem that can be fixed without begging for preferential treatment because the legal foundation is already there. You just want to consider the fact that they are gay, that's your choice. I could give you the same thing about arabic population in the US, being discriminated more than any other communities, but you would not care at all because the only thing that matter for you is the "gay" problem. The main problem is violence, it's not okay to hit a young kid, the reasons comes after. The question is "do I think he should be punished more harshly" I answered with "yes, because it is the law. Personally, I also think that because this". I am gay, I have been the victim of bullying, assault, rape etc. So yes, this is a hot topic issue for me because I am fairly active in spreading the word, helping other gay youth, being an advocate for a group that I belong to. I think the reason behind any crime is important in determining the course of action to correct and prevent. The Arabic population being assaulted etc because they are Arabic IS ALSO A BIAS MOTIVATED CRIME AND SHOULD ALSO BE DEALT WITH MORE HARSHLY THAN A NON BIAS MOTIVATED CRIME. This topic isn't about a kid being beaten up because he is arab. I have seen that happen to, and it should also be dealt with more harshly.
All crime are BIAS MOTIVATED... What other reason is there to hit a young kid ?
The fact that you are gay and suffered because of it is not relevant to the actual case. I know it's hard, I had my own suffering too, but it doesn't mean some crime should be more punished than others just because they are related to my own suffering in any way.
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On October 29 2011 01:56 aderum wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 01:50 Blasterion wrote:On October 29 2011 01:34 aderum wrote:On October 29 2011 01:30 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:22 Iyerbeth wrote:On October 29 2011 01:20 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:18 Iyerbeth wrote:On October 29 2011 01:13 Carny wrote:
Wtf is up here. I only see gay threads on the board. Has TL become some sort of Gay Sanctuary?
Don't wanna sound homophobic but it's kinda disgusting to see these kind of threads everytime I visit TL... Imagine how the gay community feels waking up every day to the same news about homophobic bullying, abuse and on occasion murders. I don't think anyone wants to see these stories, but the problem isn't about raiding awareness of the issue, it's that the events occur in the first place. It's more like they are searching something to get "offended". There are a shitload of bad things happening right now in the world and every community could find enough materials to make a thousand post on TL a day. If you genuinely think that this topic is people looking for something to be offended by there is nothing I could say in conversation that would ever achieve anything. Suffice to say though, I find that attitude sickening. I'm sorry if I offended you, but sometime it's better to take some distance with the day-to-day events and try to think carefully about the world as a whole and not some tiny events that mean almost nothing if you put them back in the big picture. Sure, it's hard to get beaten, especially if the only reason for that is that you are "different", but you also got to try to get out of yourself and replace your own experience into the world : there are a lot of young kids that get beaten for a thousands of reasons. So let's not stop on the details (here the details being : he is gay) and try to confront the big problem which is the violence toward young kids with any kind of difference from the norm. So because kids get beaten up every day, we should not care? Doesnt that mean that we should just fight harder and give harder punishment for these things so that it stops? Your attitude against something ass disgusting as this is saddening I believe that kids get beaten up every day is a problem and must solve it, and discourage the behavior but we shouldn't make it different case for gays, All bullies punished for bullying, status of the victim shouldn't come into play, the intention could be taken into account though, but Bullying straight kids is as bad as bullying gays and bullying everyone else. We should not make special cases about victim status. Basically, punish the crime for what it is, not for who it is done to Example Thief stole from gay, punished for thievery, not for punished for stealing from a gay Wow thats the most stupid example in this thread so far. The bully in question didnt beat up a kid that happend to be gay, he beat up a kid BECAUSE he was gay. Can you see the different and why we need to be harsh about crimes like that?
this 1000x
that is why we keep referring to bias motivated crimes in this thread. Because it isn't enough for the victim to be gay, for it to be a hate crime, the reason has to be because he is gay. Its in the word.
Bias motivated crime.
not:
Crime on a minority group member for reasons outside of their minority standing.
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Many things baffle me about this story
1) A fight in high-school. Really? I don't recall anyone ever fighting about anything in my 3 years of highschool and neither have my sister and big brother. Usually people are rational enough to fix that stuff orally rather than physically
2) The 20 people just looking on baffles me: granted, I'm not one to act as the guy who's broken up a lot of fights, but what this video shows is not a fight, but more of an ambush. I know of the Genovese syndrome, but it baffles me every time.
3) 3 days suspension is an absolute joke, especially considering the nature of the attack: this wasn't a fight. Expel the kid and put a mark on his permanent record: the way things are going he'll have a hard time getting a job as a homophobe. I can sympathize with the ones advocating a punishment in line with his worldview - 17th century - but honestly a couple of months of jail should do the trick.
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On October 29 2011 01:56 aderum wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 01:50 Blasterion wrote:On October 29 2011 01:34 aderum wrote:On October 29 2011 01:30 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:22 Iyerbeth wrote:On October 29 2011 01:20 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:18 Iyerbeth wrote:On October 29 2011 01:13 Carny wrote:
Wtf is up here. I only see gay threads on the board. Has TL become some sort of Gay Sanctuary?
Don't wanna sound homophobic but it's kinda disgusting to see these kind of threads everytime I visit TL... Imagine how the gay community feels waking up every day to the same news about homophobic bullying, abuse and on occasion murders. I don't think anyone wants to see these stories, but the problem isn't about raiding awareness of the issue, it's that the events occur in the first place. It's more like they are searching something to get "offended". There are a shitload of bad things happening right now in the world and every community could find enough materials to make a thousand post on TL a day. If you genuinely think that this topic is people looking for something to be offended by there is nothing I could say in conversation that would ever achieve anything. Suffice to say though, I find that attitude sickening. I'm sorry if I offended you, but sometime it's better to take some distance with the day-to-day events and try to think carefully about the world as a whole and not some tiny events that mean almost nothing if you put them back in the big picture. Sure, it's hard to get beaten, especially if the only reason for that is that you are "different", but you also got to try to get out of yourself and replace your own experience into the world : there are a lot of young kids that get beaten for a thousands of reasons. So let's not stop on the details (here the details being : he is gay) and try to confront the big problem which is the violence toward young kids with any kind of difference from the norm. So because kids get beaten up every day, we should not care? Doesnt that mean that we should just fight harder and give harder punishment for these things so that it stops? Your attitude against something ass disgusting as this is saddening I believe that kids get beaten up every day is a problem and must solve it, and discourage the behavior but we shouldn't make it different case for gays, All bullies punished for bullying, status of the victim shouldn't come into play, the intention could be taken into account though, but Bullying straight kids is as bad as bullying gays and bullying everyone else. We should not make special cases about victim status. Basically, punish the crime for what it is, not for who it is done to Example Thief stole from gay, punished for thievery, not for punished for stealing from a gay Wow thats the most stupid example in this thread so far. The bully in question didnt beat up a kid that happend to be gay, he beat up a kid BECAUSE he was gay. Can you see the different and why we need to be harsh about crimes like that?
you are going abou this the wrong way
We need to be harsh about him attempting to harm another member of humanity because of ill intent.
Why does it matter the victim was gay?
He attempted to harm another human with ill intent, and we should treat it as such
What you are trying to do is, from what I understand is
He attempted to harm another human that was kind of different with ill intent, and we should treat it as a special case and punish him more than if he harmed a "normal" human with ill intent.
If you believe I misunderstood your point please correct me
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On October 29 2011 01:59 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 01:50 drshdwpuppet wrote:On October 29 2011 01:46 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:41 drshdwpuppet wrote:On October 29 2011 01:30 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:22 Iyerbeth wrote:On October 29 2011 01:20 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:18 Iyerbeth wrote:On October 29 2011 01:13 Carny wrote:
Wtf is up here. I only see gay threads on the board. Has TL become some sort of Gay Sanctuary?
Don't wanna sound homophobic but it's kinda disgusting to see these kind of threads everytime I visit TL... Imagine how the gay community feels waking up every day to the same news about homophobic bullying, abuse and on occasion murders. I don't think anyone wants to see these stories, but the problem isn't about raiding awareness of the issue, it's that the events occur in the first place. It's more like they are searching something to get "offended". There are a shitload of bad things happening right now in the world and every community could find enough materials to make a thousand post on TL a day. If you genuinely think that this topic is people looking for something to be offended by there is nothing I could say in conversation that would ever achieve anything. Suffice to say though, I find that attitude sickening. I'm sorry if I offended you, but sometime it's better to take some distance with the day-to-day events and try to think carefully about the world as a whole and not some tiny events that mean almost nothing if you put them back in the big picture. Sure, it's hard to get beaten, especially if the only reason for that is that you are "different", but you also got to try to get out of yourself and replace your own experience into the world : there are a lot of young kids that get beaten for a thousands of reasons. So let's not stop on the details (here the details being : he is gay) and try to confront the big problem which is the violence toward young kids with any kind of difference from the norm. Here are some bigger picture things for you to consider "Gay youth are two to four times more likely to be threatened with a deadly weapon at school and miss more days of school than their heterosexual peers. Further, they are two to seven times more likely to attempt suicide. These issues, the societal stigma around homosexuality and fear of bias-motivated attack, lead to gay men and women, especially teenagers, becoming more likely to abuse drugs such as marijuana and cocaine and alcohol, have unprotected sex with multiple sexual partners, find themselves in unwanted sexual situations, have body image and eating disorders, and be at higher risk for STDs and HIV/AIDS." ( "Gay Adolescents and Suicide: Understanding the Association.". Adolescence. 2005 .http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2248/is_159_40/ai_n15950408/) The point is that there are indeed lots of kids that get beaten up every day for thousands of reasons. It is just that there is a larger percentage of gay kids being beaten up because they are gay than heterosexual kids for other reasons. I am curious as to how you look at the world as a whole. Because while it is true that this particular event is fairly insignificant in the grand scheme, the way that I, and most logical, rational people I know, analyze the world and its problems is by looking at trends. Trends are important for discovering how and why things are the way they are and how we can fix them. I see a trend of gay bullying, assault, bias motivated crimes and hatred. I see a problem that can be fixed without begging for preferential treatment because the legal foundation is already there. You just want to consider the fact that they are gay, that's your choice. I could give you the same thing about arabic population in the US, being discriminated more than any other communities, but you would not care at all because the only thing that matter for you is the "gay" problem. The main problem is violence, it's not okay to hit a young kid, the reasons comes after. The question is "do I think he should be punished more harshly" I answered with "yes, because it is the law. Personally, I also think that because this". I am gay, I have been the victim of bullying, assault, rape etc. So yes, this is a hot topic issue for me because I am fairly active in spreading the word, helping other gay youth, being an advocate for a group that I belong to. I think the reason behind any crime is important in determining the course of action to correct and prevent. The Arabic population being assaulted etc because they are Arabic IS ALSO A BIAS MOTIVATED CRIME AND SHOULD ALSO BE DEALT WITH MORE HARSHLY THAN A NON BIAS MOTIVATED CRIME. This topic isn't about a kid being beaten up because he is arab. I have seen that happen to, and it should also be dealt with more harshly. All crime are BIAS MOTIVATED... What other reason is there to hit a young kid ? The fact that you are gay and suffered because of it is not relevant to the actual case. I know it's hard, I had my own suffering too, but it doesn't mean some crime should be more punished than others just because they are related to my own suffering in any way.
We are using a legal definition. All crimes are not Bias motivated. A bias motivated crime in the united states is defined as a crime motivated by enmity or animus against a protected class.
I'm just going to ignore the suffering bit, because you are right, it isnt really relevant.
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Also as a final note, if this happened at any school in Denmark - except maybe for the most rural and inbred ones - the assailant would've been deadmeat if he hadn't been instantly expelled. Beating up someone is one thing and could maybe have been forgiven if the guy who got whooped did some far out shit, but beating up someone for something they cannot change would've been met with an asswhooping in return and the longest years of highschool imaginable.
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On October 29 2011 02:02 drshdwpuppet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 01:59 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:50 drshdwpuppet wrote:On October 29 2011 01:46 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:41 drshdwpuppet wrote:On October 29 2011 01:30 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:22 Iyerbeth wrote:On October 29 2011 01:20 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:18 Iyerbeth wrote:On October 29 2011 01:13 Carny wrote:
Wtf is up here. I only see gay threads on the board. Has TL become some sort of Gay Sanctuary?
Don't wanna sound homophobic but it's kinda disgusting to see these kind of threads everytime I visit TL... Imagine how the gay community feels waking up every day to the same news about homophobic bullying, abuse and on occasion murders. I don't think anyone wants to see these stories, but the problem isn't about raiding awareness of the issue, it's that the events occur in the first place. It's more like they are searching something to get "offended". There are a shitload of bad things happening right now in the world and every community could find enough materials to make a thousand post on TL a day. If you genuinely think that this topic is people looking for something to be offended by there is nothing I could say in conversation that would ever achieve anything. Suffice to say though, I find that attitude sickening. I'm sorry if I offended you, but sometime it's better to take some distance with the day-to-day events and try to think carefully about the world as a whole and not some tiny events that mean almost nothing if you put them back in the big picture. Sure, it's hard to get beaten, especially if the only reason for that is that you are "different", but you also got to try to get out of yourself and replace your own experience into the world : there are a lot of young kids that get beaten for a thousands of reasons. So let's not stop on the details (here the details being : he is gay) and try to confront the big problem which is the violence toward young kids with any kind of difference from the norm. Here are some bigger picture things for you to consider "Gay youth are two to four times more likely to be threatened with a deadly weapon at school and miss more days of school than their heterosexual peers. Further, they are two to seven times more likely to attempt suicide. These issues, the societal stigma around homosexuality and fear of bias-motivated attack, lead to gay men and women, especially teenagers, becoming more likely to abuse drugs such as marijuana and cocaine and alcohol, have unprotected sex with multiple sexual partners, find themselves in unwanted sexual situations, have body image and eating disorders, and be at higher risk for STDs and HIV/AIDS." ( "Gay Adolescents and Suicide: Understanding the Association.". Adolescence. 2005 .http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2248/is_159_40/ai_n15950408/) The point is that there are indeed lots of kids that get beaten up every day for thousands of reasons. It is just that there is a larger percentage of gay kids being beaten up because they are gay than heterosexual kids for other reasons. I am curious as to how you look at the world as a whole. Because while it is true that this particular event is fairly insignificant in the grand scheme, the way that I, and most logical, rational people I know, analyze the world and its problems is by looking at trends. Trends are important for discovering how and why things are the way they are and how we can fix them. I see a trend of gay bullying, assault, bias motivated crimes and hatred. I see a problem that can be fixed without begging for preferential treatment because the legal foundation is already there. You just want to consider the fact that they are gay, that's your choice. I could give you the same thing about arabic population in the US, being discriminated more than any other communities, but you would not care at all because the only thing that matter for you is the "gay" problem. The main problem is violence, it's not okay to hit a young kid, the reasons comes after. The question is "do I think he should be punished more harshly" I answered with "yes, because it is the law. Personally, I also think that because this". I am gay, I have been the victim of bullying, assault, rape etc. So yes, this is a hot topic issue for me because I am fairly active in spreading the word, helping other gay youth, being an advocate for a group that I belong to. I think the reason behind any crime is important in determining the course of action to correct and prevent. The Arabic population being assaulted etc because they are Arabic IS ALSO A BIAS MOTIVATED CRIME AND SHOULD ALSO BE DEALT WITH MORE HARSHLY THAN A NON BIAS MOTIVATED CRIME. This topic isn't about a kid being beaten up because he is arab. I have seen that happen to, and it should also be dealt with more harshly. All crime are BIAS MOTIVATED... What other reason is there to hit a young kid ? The fact that you are gay and suffered because of it is not relevant to the actual case. I know it's hard, I had my own suffering too, but it doesn't mean some crime should be more punished than others just because they are related to my own suffering in any way. We are using a legal definition. All crimes are not Bias motivated. A bias motivated crime in the united states is defined as a crime motivated by enmity or animus against a protected class. I'm just going to ignore the suffering bit, because you are right, it isnt really relevant.
And on what criteria does you consider a certain class in need to be "protected" or not ?
I will answer to my own question : the power that this very class has on the media and the public sphere.
I consider young kids as a whole in need to be protected, not just gay kids.
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On October 29 2011 02:01 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 01:56 aderum wrote:On October 29 2011 01:50 Blasterion wrote:On October 29 2011 01:34 aderum wrote:On October 29 2011 01:30 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:22 Iyerbeth wrote:On October 29 2011 01:20 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:18 Iyerbeth wrote:On October 29 2011 01:13 Carny wrote:
Wtf is up here. I only see gay threads on the board. Has TL become some sort of Gay Sanctuary?
Don't wanna sound homophobic but it's kinda disgusting to see these kind of threads everytime I visit TL... Imagine how the gay community feels waking up every day to the same news about homophobic bullying, abuse and on occasion murders. I don't think anyone wants to see these stories, but the problem isn't about raiding awareness of the issue, it's that the events occur in the first place. It's more like they are searching something to get "offended". There are a shitload of bad things happening right now in the world and every community could find enough materials to make a thousand post on TL a day. If you genuinely think that this topic is people looking for something to be offended by there is nothing I could say in conversation that would ever achieve anything. Suffice to say though, I find that attitude sickening. I'm sorry if I offended you, but sometime it's better to take some distance with the day-to-day events and try to think carefully about the world as a whole and not some tiny events that mean almost nothing if you put them back in the big picture. Sure, it's hard to get beaten, especially if the only reason for that is that you are "different", but you also got to try to get out of yourself and replace your own experience into the world : there are a lot of young kids that get beaten for a thousands of reasons. So let's not stop on the details (here the details being : he is gay) and try to confront the big problem which is the violence toward young kids with any kind of difference from the norm. So because kids get beaten up every day, we should not care? Doesnt that mean that we should just fight harder and give harder punishment for these things so that it stops? Your attitude against something ass disgusting as this is saddening I believe that kids get beaten up every day is a problem and must solve it, and discourage the behavior but we shouldn't make it different case for gays, All bullies punished for bullying, status of the victim shouldn't come into play, the intention could be taken into account though, but Bullying straight kids is as bad as bullying gays and bullying everyone else. We should not make special cases about victim status. Basically, punish the crime for what it is, not for who it is done to Example Thief stole from gay, punished for thievery, not for punished for stealing from a gay Wow thats the most stupid example in this thread so far. The bully in question didnt beat up a kid that happend to be gay, he beat up a kid BECAUSE he was gay. Can you see the different and why we need to be harsh about crimes like that? you are going abou this the wrong way We need to be harsh about him attempting to harm another member of humanity because of ill intent. Why does it matter the victim was gay? He attempted to harm another human with ill intent, and we should treat it as such What you are trying to do is, from what I understand is He attempted to harm another human that was kind of different with ill intent, and we should treat it as a special case and punish him more than if he harmed a "normal" human with ill intent. If you believe I misunderstood your point please correct me
I think you have a slight misunderstanding. All I am doing is providing the argument that the crime, by United States law, is different because of the motivation behind the crime. If the motivation is animus or emnity against a list of protected groups, then the crime falls under a different legal category than a normal act of assault, one that carries with it a harsher punishment by law. I am not making an emotional argument, I am making a legal one.
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Strongly opposed in most cases to any sort of legal charges. Suspension and a ban from all school related activities. One asshole, beating up a person too weak to defend themselves. Typical behavior. However...
What I find worse than the attack is the lack of response from their peers. That is truly disheartening. It says the most about us as a people, and what it says isn't good. Even more, I can't personally wrap my head around it.
I can say with 100% certainty that there was a group of kids in my graduating class who would have retroactively destroyed that kid for pulling a stunt like that. But then, maybe we don't have the full story. We have a single perspective, and I know I may get called out for this, but my personal experience from highschool tells me someone would have stopped such a one sided beating if it was undeserved, there may be more going on there than we know.
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On October 29 2011 01:59 drshdwpuppet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 01:56 aderum wrote:On October 29 2011 01:50 Blasterion wrote:On October 29 2011 01:34 aderum wrote:On October 29 2011 01:30 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:22 Iyerbeth wrote:On October 29 2011 01:20 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:18 Iyerbeth wrote:On October 29 2011 01:13 Carny wrote:
Wtf is up here. I only see gay threads on the board. Has TL become some sort of Gay Sanctuary?
Don't wanna sound homophobic but it's kinda disgusting to see these kind of threads everytime I visit TL... Imagine how the gay community feels waking up every day to the same news about homophobic bullying, abuse and on occasion murders. I don't think anyone wants to see these stories, but the problem isn't about raiding awareness of the issue, it's that the events occur in the first place. It's more like they are searching something to get "offended". There are a shitload of bad things happening right now in the world and every community could find enough materials to make a thousand post on TL a day. If you genuinely think that this topic is people looking for something to be offended by there is nothing I could say in conversation that would ever achieve anything. Suffice to say though, I find that attitude sickening. I'm sorry if I offended you, but sometime it's better to take some distance with the day-to-day events and try to think carefully about the world as a whole and not some tiny events that mean almost nothing if you put them back in the big picture. Sure, it's hard to get beaten, especially if the only reason for that is that you are "different", but you also got to try to get out of yourself and replace your own experience into the world : there are a lot of young kids that get beaten for a thousands of reasons. So let's not stop on the details (here the details being : he is gay) and try to confront the big problem which is the violence toward young kids with any kind of difference from the norm. So because kids get beaten up every day, we should not care? Doesnt that mean that we should just fight harder and give harder punishment for these things so that it stops? Your attitude against something ass disgusting as this is saddening I believe that kids get beaten up every day is a problem and must solve it, and discourage the behavior but we shouldn't make it different case for gays, All bullies punished for bullying, status of the victim shouldn't come into play, the intention could be taken into account though, but Bullying straight kids is as bad as bullying gays and bullying everyone else. We should not make special cases about victim status. Basically, punish the crime for what it is, not for who it is done to Example Thief stole from gay, punished for thievery, not for punished for stealing from a gay Wow thats the most stupid example in this thread so far. The bully in question didnt beat up a kid that happend to be gay, he beat up a kid BECAUSE he was gay. Can you see the different and why we need to be harsh about crimes like that? this 1000x that is why we keep referring to bias motivated crimes in this thread. Because it isn't enough for the victim to be gay, for it to be a hate crime, the reason has to be because he is gay. Its in the word. Bias motivated crime. not: Crime on a minority group member for reasons outside of their minority standing.
Oh, than why violence against someone for being fat, ugly and wearing a glasses should be less punished than "hate crime'? Ugly person would be a victim becouse s/he was born as s/he is, as someone being a gay. Call that what you want, make any differences becouse one name or another. But for me it's still the same shit.
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On October 29 2011 02:04 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 02:02 drshdwpuppet wrote:On October 29 2011 01:59 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:50 drshdwpuppet wrote:On October 29 2011 01:46 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:41 drshdwpuppet wrote:On October 29 2011 01:30 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:22 Iyerbeth wrote:On October 29 2011 01:20 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:18 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
Imagine how the gay community feels waking up every day to the same news about homophobic bullying, abuse and on occasion murders. I don't think anyone wants to see these stories, but the problem isn't about raiding awareness of the issue, it's that the events occur in the first place. It's more like they are searching something to get "offended". There are a shitload of bad things happening right now in the world and every community could find enough materials to make a thousand post on TL a day. If you genuinely think that this topic is people looking for something to be offended by there is nothing I could say in conversation that would ever achieve anything. Suffice to say though, I find that attitude sickening. I'm sorry if I offended you, but sometime it's better to take some distance with the day-to-day events and try to think carefully about the world as a whole and not some tiny events that mean almost nothing if you put them back in the big picture. Sure, it's hard to get beaten, especially if the only reason for that is that you are "different", but you also got to try to get out of yourself and replace your own experience into the world : there are a lot of young kids that get beaten for a thousands of reasons. So let's not stop on the details (here the details being : he is gay) and try to confront the big problem which is the violence toward young kids with any kind of difference from the norm. Here are some bigger picture things for you to consider "Gay youth are two to four times more likely to be threatened with a deadly weapon at school and miss more days of school than their heterosexual peers. Further, they are two to seven times more likely to attempt suicide. These issues, the societal stigma around homosexuality and fear of bias-motivated attack, lead to gay men and women, especially teenagers, becoming more likely to abuse drugs such as marijuana and cocaine and alcohol, have unprotected sex with multiple sexual partners, find themselves in unwanted sexual situations, have body image and eating disorders, and be at higher risk for STDs and HIV/AIDS." ( "Gay Adolescents and Suicide: Understanding the Association.". Adolescence. 2005 .http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2248/is_159_40/ai_n15950408/) The point is that there are indeed lots of kids that get beaten up every day for thousands of reasons. It is just that there is a larger percentage of gay kids being beaten up because they are gay than heterosexual kids for other reasons. I am curious as to how you look at the world as a whole. Because while it is true that this particular event is fairly insignificant in the grand scheme, the way that I, and most logical, rational people I know, analyze the world and its problems is by looking at trends. Trends are important for discovering how and why things are the way they are and how we can fix them. I see a trend of gay bullying, assault, bias motivated crimes and hatred. I see a problem that can be fixed without begging for preferential treatment because the legal foundation is already there. You just want to consider the fact that they are gay, that's your choice. I could give you the same thing about arabic population in the US, being discriminated more than any other communities, but you would not care at all because the only thing that matter for you is the "gay" problem. The main problem is violence, it's not okay to hit a young kid, the reasons comes after. The question is "do I think he should be punished more harshly" I answered with "yes, because it is the law. Personally, I also think that because this". I am gay, I have been the victim of bullying, assault, rape etc. So yes, this is a hot topic issue for me because I am fairly active in spreading the word, helping other gay youth, being an advocate for a group that I belong to. I think the reason behind any crime is important in determining the course of action to correct and prevent. The Arabic population being assaulted etc because they are Arabic IS ALSO A BIAS MOTIVATED CRIME AND SHOULD ALSO BE DEALT WITH MORE HARSHLY THAN A NON BIAS MOTIVATED CRIME. This topic isn't about a kid being beaten up because he is arab. I have seen that happen to, and it should also be dealt with more harshly. All crime are BIAS MOTIVATED... What other reason is there to hit a young kid ? The fact that you are gay and suffered because of it is not relevant to the actual case. I know it's hard, I had my own suffering too, but it doesn't mean some crime should be more punished than others just because they are related to my own suffering in any way. We are using a legal definition. All crimes are not Bias motivated. A bias motivated crime in the united states is defined as a crime motivated by enmity or animus against a protected class. I'm just going to ignore the suffering bit, because you are right, it isnt really relevant. And on what criteria does you consider a certain class in need to be "protected" or not ? I will answer to my own question : the power that this very class has on the media and the public sphere. I consider young kids as a whole in need to be protected, not just gay kids.
I use the criteria that a court would, THE LEGAL DEFINITION.
Namely race, religion, ethnicity, nationality, gender, and disability with the addition of sexual orientation and gender identity in 2009 with the Matthew Shepard act.
So no, you did not answer your own question, don't presume to be able to answer what my criteria are in anything thank you.
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On October 29 2011 02:06 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 01:59 drshdwpuppet wrote:On October 29 2011 01:56 aderum wrote:On October 29 2011 01:50 Blasterion wrote:On October 29 2011 01:34 aderum wrote:On October 29 2011 01:30 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:22 Iyerbeth wrote:On October 29 2011 01:20 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:18 Iyerbeth wrote:On October 29 2011 01:13 Carny wrote:
Wtf is up here. I only see gay threads on the board. Has TL become some sort of Gay Sanctuary?
Don't wanna sound homophobic but it's kinda disgusting to see these kind of threads everytime I visit TL... Imagine how the gay community feels waking up every day to the same news about homophobic bullying, abuse and on occasion murders. I don't think anyone wants to see these stories, but the problem isn't about raiding awareness of the issue, it's that the events occur in the first place. It's more like they are searching something to get "offended". There are a shitload of bad things happening right now in the world and every community could find enough materials to make a thousand post on TL a day. If you genuinely think that this topic is people looking for something to be offended by there is nothing I could say in conversation that would ever achieve anything. Suffice to say though, I find that attitude sickening. I'm sorry if I offended you, but sometime it's better to take some distance with the day-to-day events and try to think carefully about the world as a whole and not some tiny events that mean almost nothing if you put them back in the big picture. Sure, it's hard to get beaten, especially if the only reason for that is that you are "different", but you also got to try to get out of yourself and replace your own experience into the world : there are a lot of young kids that get beaten for a thousands of reasons. So let's not stop on the details (here the details being : he is gay) and try to confront the big problem which is the violence toward young kids with any kind of difference from the norm. So because kids get beaten up every day, we should not care? Doesnt that mean that we should just fight harder and give harder punishment for these things so that it stops? Your attitude against something ass disgusting as this is saddening I believe that kids get beaten up every day is a problem and must solve it, and discourage the behavior but we shouldn't make it different case for gays, All bullies punished for bullying, status of the victim shouldn't come into play, the intention could be taken into account though, but Bullying straight kids is as bad as bullying gays and bullying everyone else. We should not make special cases about victim status. Basically, punish the crime for what it is, not for who it is done to Example Thief stole from gay, punished for thievery, not for punished for stealing from a gay Wow thats the most stupid example in this thread so far. The bully in question didnt beat up a kid that happend to be gay, he beat up a kid BECAUSE he was gay. Can you see the different and why we need to be harsh about crimes like that? this 1000x that is why we keep referring to bias motivated crimes in this thread. Because it isn't enough for the victim to be gay, for it to be a hate crime, the reason has to be because he is gay. Its in the word. Bias motivated crime. not: Crime on a minority group member for reasons outside of their minority standing. Oh, than why violence against someone for being fat, ugly and wearing a glasses should be less punished than "hate crime'? Ugly person would be a victim becouse s/he was born as s/he is, as someone being a gay. Call that what you want, make any differences becouse one name or another. But for me it's still the same shit.
See my post right before this. Looks are not a protected characteristic.
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On October 29 2011 01:31 ELA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 01:19 Velocirapture wrote:On October 29 2011 01:08 ELA wrote:
Heh.. Isn't this like the 8th Gay-thread we have had in 3 days?
Not to say that it's not an issue with the hate-crimes and stuff which I'm sure is a big problem in the US(They are not very common here), but isn't it going abit overboard?
It's a school, come on.. When I was in school, there was loads of fights, lots of them completely unjustified and some even "Lets beat up that guy, just because can".. Sometimes kids just do dumb shit that can seem very evil
Would this be interesting if this boy was straight? Kids who act on an impulse with the thought "lets go beat that person up just because we can" have severe issues. They need constant supervision, counseling and possibly medication. I beat up a kid when I was 13 because he had cheese in his lunchbox. Medication? Get real Not saying that it's okay for kids to beat up each other for no reason, but that dosn't make them sick or evil - Its misguided, yes! But you don't deal with kids that act this way with "death penalty" and "prison" like 50% of this thread posters in here seem to think - You people are sicker than the person who actually did the beating here, in my oppinion They are _kids_, he should be penaltied as a kid, not as an adult
Finally someone I can agree with in this thread. When I was in grade 6 I had a pretty mean tilt with another kid because we both thought it was our turn on the tetherball. I'm not condoning this kid beating up another kid like that, but prison and death penalty is way over the line here. This kid is most likely going to grow up to be a normal healthy adult who looks back on this incident with disgust and remorse. Everyone of us has done shit in the past we're not proud of. No one here is blameless enough that they can justifiably vindicate aggression against this kid.
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Just worth mentioning I think that when people vote for police and charges involved that's not the same as saying "Prison term!". I voted for that option because of the severity of the case, but I don't think that the result of that should be prison.
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On October 29 2011 02:06 drshdwpuppet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 02:04 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 02:02 drshdwpuppet wrote:On October 29 2011 01:59 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:50 drshdwpuppet wrote:On October 29 2011 01:46 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:41 drshdwpuppet wrote:On October 29 2011 01:30 WhiteDog wrote:On October 29 2011 01:22 Iyerbeth wrote:On October 29 2011 01:20 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
It's more like they are searching something to get "offended". There are a shitload of bad things happening right now in the world and every community could find enough materials to make a thousand post on TL a day. If you genuinely think that this topic is people looking for something to be offended by there is nothing I could say in conversation that would ever achieve anything. Suffice to say though, I find that attitude sickening. I'm sorry if I offended you, but sometime it's better to take some distance with the day-to-day events and try to think carefully about the world as a whole and not some tiny events that mean almost nothing if you put them back in the big picture. Sure, it's hard to get beaten, especially if the only reason for that is that you are "different", but you also got to try to get out of yourself and replace your own experience into the world : there are a lot of young kids that get beaten for a thousands of reasons. So let's not stop on the details (here the details being : he is gay) and try to confront the big problem which is the violence toward young kids with any kind of difference from the norm. Here are some bigger picture things for you to consider "Gay youth are two to four times more likely to be threatened with a deadly weapon at school and miss more days of school than their heterosexual peers. Further, they are two to seven times more likely to attempt suicide. These issues, the societal stigma around homosexuality and fear of bias-motivated attack, lead to gay men and women, especially teenagers, becoming more likely to abuse drugs such as marijuana and cocaine and alcohol, have unprotected sex with multiple sexual partners, find themselves in unwanted sexual situations, have body image and eating disorders, and be at higher risk for STDs and HIV/AIDS." ( "Gay Adolescents and Suicide: Understanding the Association.". Adolescence. 2005 .http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2248/is_159_40/ai_n15950408/) The point is that there are indeed lots of kids that get beaten up every day for thousands of reasons. It is just that there is a larger percentage of gay kids being beaten up because they are gay than heterosexual kids for other reasons. I am curious as to how you look at the world as a whole. Because while it is true that this particular event is fairly insignificant in the grand scheme, the way that I, and most logical, rational people I know, analyze the world and its problems is by looking at trends. Trends are important for discovering how and why things are the way they are and how we can fix them. I see a trend of gay bullying, assault, bias motivated crimes and hatred. I see a problem that can be fixed without begging for preferential treatment because the legal foundation is already there. You just want to consider the fact that they are gay, that's your choice. I could give you the same thing about arabic population in the US, being discriminated more than any other communities, but you would not care at all because the only thing that matter for you is the "gay" problem. The main problem is violence, it's not okay to hit a young kid, the reasons comes after. The question is "do I think he should be punished more harshly" I answered with "yes, because it is the law. Personally, I also think that because this". I am gay, I have been the victim of bullying, assault, rape etc. So yes, this is a hot topic issue for me because I am fairly active in spreading the word, helping other gay youth, being an advocate for a group that I belong to. I think the reason behind any crime is important in determining the course of action to correct and prevent. The Arabic population being assaulted etc because they are Arabic IS ALSO A BIAS MOTIVATED CRIME AND SHOULD ALSO BE DEALT WITH MORE HARSHLY THAN A NON BIAS MOTIVATED CRIME. This topic isn't about a kid being beaten up because he is arab. I have seen that happen to, and it should also be dealt with more harshly. All crime are BIAS MOTIVATED... What other reason is there to hit a young kid ? The fact that you are gay and suffered because of it is not relevant to the actual case. I know it's hard, I had my own suffering too, but it doesn't mean some crime should be more punished than others just because they are related to my own suffering in any way. We are using a legal definition. All crimes are not Bias motivated. A bias motivated crime in the united states is defined as a crime motivated by enmity or animus against a protected class. I'm just going to ignore the suffering bit, because you are right, it isnt really relevant. And on what criteria does you consider a certain class in need to be "protected" or not ? I will answer to my own question : the power that this very class has on the media and the public sphere. I consider young kids as a whole in need to be protected, not just gay kids. I use the criteria that a court would, THE LEGAL DEFINITION. Namely race, religion, ethnicity, nationality, gender, and disability with the addition of sexual orientation and gender identity in 2009 with the Matthew Shepard act. So no, you did not answer your own question, don't presume to be able to answer what my criteria are in anything thank you.
Yes I did respond to my question, why did they decide to define as protected "race, religion, ethnicity, nationality, gender, disability with the addition of sexual orientation and gender identity" in the LEGAL DEFINITION ? Because, as I said, there were communities behind those laws.
It doesn't care what the law says if it's dumb in my opinion.
And you brilliantly evaded my last sentence. The fact is : hitting a kid, in any way, is a crime, and if you punish more when a gay kid is punished rather than any other kid, then the only thing you are saying is that the gay kid is more important to the community than the other kid, which is pretty pathetic.
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EPT
