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On October 19 2011 07:02 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 06:52 Blasterion wrote:On October 19 2011 06:52 jinorazi wrote:On October 19 2011 06:45 Blasterion wrote:On October 19 2011 06:42 jinorazi wrote:
sad.
korea had its time where traffic laws were ignored (when i was there), a lot has changed now.
i hope china and all other developing countries can understand the seriousness of automotive traffic and humanitarian views.
some of them traffic accident videos in china is fucking mindblowing, i really wanted to bitch slap every single one of those drivers. and i hope one day i won't get shafted for helping someone out of good will rumor or not, i would help without thinking about it. i think thats a very lame excuse not to help someone in need. it is but, when you think about what is in jeopardy, it really isn't what is in jeopardy? i help someone then *chance* of getting sued? i think there might be a higher chance of getting thanked instead of being sued. if there's a sure chance i can help someone, i would do so and not let it be decided on the chance of a backlash. and if this shit is that screwed up, government/law/system is at fault for allowing such thing to happen. i surely wouldn't let that be a factor when a kid is about to get run over. scams are a different story and it exists everywhere regardless of where/when/what/who.
I agree. If one out of every 500 people gets sued for helping an injured person, that's an acceptable risk in my eyes. People keep citing the 2006 case as the reason for not helping, but it makes very little sense. You could reasonably assume that from 2000-2006, and from 2006-2011, hundreds of thousands of people have helped one another in times of crisis (and I'm sure that's a low estimate). Out of those people, how many had lawsuits filed against them? I doubt there's a way to look it up, but I'm willing to bet it is a VERY small number. It's like never leaving your house because you might get struck by lightning. Sure, it happens. But not often at all.
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On October 19 2011 06:27 radscorpion9 wrote:
Also would be curious what the "bystander effect" (a term used in social psychology) has to play in this. Could it happen anywhere else? Has it? meh...maybe I'll research it later
My train of thought about this is, in the Common Law countries, there is that "Good Samaritan" stuff about immunity if you try to help someone but instead cause harm. In Germany, Austria and Switzerland, additionally, as far as I know, you can actually be sued for NOT helping, for walking by while knowing that someone needs help. What is the reason for those laws? I suspect something like the "bystander effect" is actually the normal human condition, and thus the laws are needed, and it is important to educate kids in kindergarten and school about that, and tell them to not ignore injured people.
This then more likely produces adults that at least make an emergency call and stop traffic in the meantime. So basically, all people in this thread that are convinced that they would have helped (I am one of those) are like that because of culture and their background, and not because that is normal for humans and they are somehow naturally "better" humans. And in China, it seems the reverse is true because the laws are backwards. I would guess a change in legislation and coverage of that in Chinese media would easily fix the situation.
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On October 19 2011 07:12 TempusDESU wrote:
Wow this is such a difficult topic. Iirc, my country has a law which states that if we witness an accident and are able to help, we are liable to assist the victim. Of course, there are some exceptions (I don't think we're forced to perform CPR) but still...
But is it really okay to have a law saying that you must help?
or rather is it ok to have a precedent ruling that says if you help you are legally liable? and is recommended that you mind your own business if ypu are not a part of the harm vs victim inolvement
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On October 19 2011 07:16 Ropid wrote:
This then more likely produces adults that at least make an emergency call and stop traffic in the meantime. So basically, all people in this thread that are convinced that they would have helped (I am one of those) are like that because of culture and their background and not because that is normal for humans. And in China, it seems the reverse is true because the laws are backwards. I would guess a change in legislation and coverage of that in Chinese media would easily fix the situation.
It's hard to say that legislation would change so easily, given China's political structure, but from what I am reading there is a lot of backlash and awareness of this event in China and worldwide. Lets just hope the Chinese citizens as a whole become more proactive and soon enough change will happen. Sad for Yue Yue still 
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On October 19 2011 07:21 Archers_bane wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 07:16 Ropid wrote:
This then more likely produces adults that at least make an emergency call and stop traffic in the meantime. So basically, all people in this thread that are convinced that they would have helped (I am one of those) are like that because of culture and their background and not because that is normal for humans. And in China, it seems the reverse is true because the laws are backwards. I would guess a change in legislation and coverage of that in Chinese media would easily fix the situation. It's hard to say that legislation would change so easily, given China's political structure, but from what I am reading there is a lot of backlash and awareness of this event in China and worldwide. Lets just hope the Chinese citizens as a whole become more proactive and soon enough change will happen. Sad for Yue Yue still
it's sad but sometimes sacrifice must be made before thing can get done. tragedies like this drives humanity to move foward and improve our societies, because we want to prevent them
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On October 19 2011 07:12 TempusDESU wrote:
Wow this is such a difficult topic. Iirc, my country has a law which states that if we witness an accident and are able to help, we are liable to assist the victim. Of course, there are some exceptions (I don't think we're forced to perform CPR) but still...
But is it really okay to have a law saying that you must help?
I personally would want to live in a community that has to help me when I am in danger/hurt rather than one that doesn't have to. If that law helped save 1 life, then it has served its purpose...even if it was just dialing the police or calling for more help.
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On October 19 2011 07:30 Archers_bane wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 07:12 TempusDESU wrote:
Wow this is such a difficult topic. Iirc, my country has a law which states that if we witness an accident and are able to help, we are liable to assist the victim. Of course, there are some exceptions (I don't think we're forced to perform CPR) but still...
But is it really okay to have a law saying that you must help? I personally would want to live in a community that has to help me when I am in danger/hurt rather than one that doesn't have to. If that law helped save 1 life, then it has served its purpose...even if it was just dialing the police or calling for more help.
Now let us look into some specifics about this law, In some countries Ambulance call do cost a price, I believe in new york it is 500 dollars?
Now whose responsibility is it to pay this bill, the caller? the victim, and their family? or the government.
If in the case that the victim/family cannot afford the fee, or goes AWOL, who is responsible to pay the bill.
Ambulance delivers the victim to the hospital, and requires immediate medical attention, who fills out the paper work for financial liability for the victim in case that he/she is uninsured.
If we can work that out we can make something happen maybe
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United States5162 Posts
On October 19 2011 07:16 Ropid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 06:27 radscorpion9 wrote:
Also would be curious what the "bystander effect" (a term used in social psychology) has to play in this. Could it happen anywhere else? Has it? meh...maybe I'll research it later My train of thought about this is, in the Common Law countries, there is that "Good Samaritan" stuff about immunity if you try to help someone but instead cause harm. In Germany, Austria and Switzerland, additionally, as far as I know, you can actually be sued for NOT helping, for walking by while knowing that someone needs help. What is the reason for those laws? I suspect something like the "bystander effect" is actually the normal human condition, and thus the laws are needed, and it is important to educate kids in kindergarten and school about that, and tell them to not ignore injured people. This then more likely produces adults that at least make an emergency call and stop traffic in the meantime. So basically, all people in this thread that are convinced that they would have helped (I am one of those) are like that because of culture and their background, and not because that is normal for humans and they are somehow naturally "better" humans. And in China, it seems the reverse is true because the laws are backwards. I would guess a change in legislation and coverage of that in Chinese media would easily fix the situation.
It's not that people are naturally like this. People are usually very empathetic and helpful towards one another, even complete strangers, when there's no one else around to do it otherwise. The problem is that when we are in groups, especially when they're made up of people we aren't close to, our mental outlook changes. I won't go into too much detail, as I'm no expert in the field myself, but it has to do with our unconscious belief that if there is a problem, then someone else will help and take responsibility. I also think has some basis in Dunbar's Number where if we were together with family there would be little hesitation to help, but with a stranger we don't connect in the same way and feel the immediate urge to help them in the same way.
In this case however, I feel it's the Chinese system of costing less to kill someone then injure them, and the recent media coverage of people there being sued for helping, that is the major cause for this tragedy.
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Oh wow that video made me feel sick -_-
Sigh
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On October 19 2011 07:13 ayaz2810 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 07:02 jinorazi wrote:On October 19 2011 06:52 Blasterion wrote:On October 19 2011 06:52 jinorazi wrote:On October 19 2011 06:45 Blasterion wrote:On October 19 2011 06:42 jinorazi wrote:
sad.
korea had its time where traffic laws were ignored (when i was there), a lot has changed now.
i hope china and all other developing countries can understand the seriousness of automotive traffic and humanitarian views.
some of them traffic accident videos in china is fucking mindblowing, i really wanted to bitch slap every single one of those drivers. and i hope one day i won't get shafted for helping someone out of good will rumor or not, i would help without thinking about it. i think thats a very lame excuse not to help someone in need. it is but, when you think about what is in jeopardy, it really isn't what is in jeopardy? i help someone then *chance* of getting sued? i think there might be a higher chance of getting thanked instead of being sued. if there's a sure chance i can help someone, i would do so and not let it be decided on the chance of a backlash. and if this shit is that screwed up, government/law/system is at fault for allowing such thing to happen. i surely wouldn't let that be a factor when a kid is about to get run over. scams are a different story and it exists everywhere regardless of where/when/what/who. I agree. If one out of every 500 people gets sued for helping an injured person, that's an acceptable risk in my eyes. People keep citing the 2006 case as the reason for not helping, but it makes very little sense. You could reasonably assume that from 2000-2006, and from 2006-2011, hundreds of thousands of people have helped one another in times of crisis (and I'm sure that's a low estimate). Out of those people, how many had lawsuits filed against them? I doubt there's a way to look it up, but I'm willing to bet it is a VERY small number. It's like never leaving your house because you might get struck by lightning. Sure, it happens. But not often at all.
Those that were seriously hurt are very very unlikely to be ingrates and sue their helpers HOWEVER the incidents of people running into cars to get grazed and knocked down and people lying on the streets pretending to get hurt are so common that they are replacing some of the older cons as the contemporary bread and butter scams. It doesn't help either that the majority of scams employ children/old people because they usually evoke more sympathy, now people are more wary if it is a old person or a child.
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On October 19 2011 07:18 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 07:12 TempusDESU wrote:
Wow this is such a difficult topic. Iirc, my country has a law which states that if we witness an accident and are able to help, we are liable to assist the victim. Of course, there are some exceptions (I don't think we're forced to perform CPR) but still...
But is it really okay to have a law saying that you must help? or rather is it ok to have a precedent ruling that says if you help you are legally liable? and is recommended that you mind your own business if ypu are not a part of the harm vs victim inolvement
Let's see...if someone jumps into a pool headfirst and is floating, face up, but motionless and unresponsive, what should you do?
you can
1. call 911 to get the guy help
2. assist the guy, and because you don't know what the fuck you're doing, you paralyze him for life
3. do nothing
what type of court decision is best if you pick action 2? you are more likely to do harm by helping than doing nothing, how should a judge rule keeping mind of how people will act in the future?
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Honestly, I wouldn't have saved the kid if I lived there. It's too risky on one's self.......poor kid. I would've helped the child without any hesitation in any other country. But you have to consider many people in China are very poor and to risk losing the little money you have on the suing thing.....yeah. You could die yourself if you're homeless.
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i cant explain why he ran over the girl in the first place, but i at least see where the driver is coming from when he ran over her with the second wheel....
he wanted to gtfo of there.
he even had a few seconds of doubt before hitting her twice.
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On October 18 2011 09:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Oh God, is there some conspiracy on TL I don't know about that equates to "post every bad thing that happens in China"? The strong majority of threads about something bad happening as a result of people's actions have to do with China. I don't get it :S. This is a tragedy, but shit like this happens anytime, anywhere. It isn't exclusive to just China. I know, from experience, there's a fair chance there's going to be some sinophobic posts in this thread like there are in every other one concerning China. Already, there's a bit of a slant in the OP, such as this statement: as if implying that all Americans are high-class mannered folks and Chinese are evil and barbaric (lol). No, this phenomenon is not barbaric in the US. I've heard it happen plenty of times and even seen it happen (I've usually gone to the rescue in those several occasions, and in one case I was even indicted as the perpetrator even when the victim vouched for me... it took above-godly tact and argumentation to get out of that pickle), despite the "Good Samaritan" law. People getting beat up, shot, hit by vehicles, you name it. The best I've seen or heard of is something calling an ambulance and then going along their way, by strangers that is (obviously a family member or good friend is going to be of some serious assistance). Hell what am I saying? Just a couple months ago, a relative was at a gas station in the evening, got assaulted, tried to fight back and was shot a few times (and the thugs left), and people still came to the gas station and didn't do shit, the people/employees inside the store didn't do shit. She had to crawl her way into there and basically show them her condition and to call the police before anyone did anything.
stop talking please!
this would probably NEVER happen in germany, probably not in spain, france and other EU countries, whatever they are.
i dont know about the US but i'm sure it would not happen there as well.
Things like this happen "anywhere, anytime." Crap
I'm completely shocked about how the majority of the chinese people didnt give a shit in this video.
Comments like "i can understand them", "they are afraid to help" make me sick.
You see what death penalty causes!
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I'd love to see if this happened to a rich white kid in the US. Think about it though. There would be such a massive uproar.
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did she died?
read update. sorry.
Also i think if it was an older child or young adult his cires of help would be heard.
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On October 19 2011 08:06 Cuh wrote:
did she died?
no
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On October 19 2011 08:00 Mczeppo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 09:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Oh God, is there some conspiracy on TL I don't know about that equates to "post every bad thing that happens in China"? The strong majority of threads about something bad happening as a result of people's actions have to do with China. I don't get it :S. This is a tragedy, but shit like this happens anytime, anywhere. It isn't exclusive to just China. I know, from experience, there's a fair chance there's going to be some sinophobic posts in this thread like there are in every other one concerning China. Already, there's a bit of a slant in the OP, such as this statement: This phenomenon of watching idly may seem barbaric to us in the US as if implying that all Americans are high-class mannered folks and Chinese are evil and barbaric (lol). No, this phenomenon is not barbaric in the US. I've heard it happen plenty of times and even seen it happen (I've usually gone to the rescue in those several occasions, and in one case I was even indicted as the perpetrator even when the victim vouched for me... it took above-godly tact and argumentation to get out of that pickle), despite the "Good Samaritan" law. People getting beat up, shot, hit by vehicles, you name it. The best I've seen or heard of is something calling an ambulance and then going along their way, by strangers that is (obviously a family member or good friend is going to be of some serious assistance). Hell what am I saying? Just a couple months ago, a relative was at a gas station in the evening, got assaulted, tried to fight back and was shot a few times (and the thugs left), and people still came to the gas station and didn't do shit, the people/employees inside the store didn't do shit. She had to crawl her way into there and basically show them her condition and to call the police before anyone did anything. stop talking please! this would probably NEVER happen in germany, probably not in spain, france and other EU countries, whatever they are. i dont know about the US but i'm sure it would not happen there as well. Things like this happen "anywhere, anytime." Crap I'm completely shocked about how the majority of the chinese people didnt give a shit in this video. Comments like "i can understand them", "they are afraid to help" make me sick. You see what death penalty causes!
Actually it has. Heres one case from New York last year.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/passers_by_let_good_sam_die_5SGkf5XDP5ooudVuEd8fbI
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There are far too many people in this thread looking at it from a western point of view. Sure it's easy to sit in your armchair and claim that you should be helping without actually knowing what it's like on the ground.
1/500 people being sued or scammed for helping? Try 1 in ten. Scamming in China is ALL over the place. I once had someone lay down at an intersection and claim that I hit them while I was in china. He demanded compensation on the spot and the POLICE were in on the scam as well. In fact the only way I got out of that was pretending to not speak Chinese and waving my Canadian passport around while declaring my status as a foreign national. The scammers found they bit off a little more than they could chew and fled.
There is NO justice in the judicial system and most people have no faith that it will help them(and rightfully so) with the amount of corruption and collaboration with scammers. Their credibility is also badly damaged by how the police are basically a tool to enforce the communist party agenda which most people view with cynicism.
The risk of scamming is very real. Too real in fact. I'll state this too. If I were there I wouldn't have jumped to the girl's aid either. The most I would do is call the authorities and perhaps attempt to divert traffic, but I wouldn't touch the girl or attempt to move her. Chinese justice is a farce. You need to protect yourself before you help others.
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Wow a buddy of mine has a little sister and I saw her when she was that age and was always together with him and when I saw her I had to think of the little sister of my buddy the whole time...
Damn usually I react with rage to stuff like that, but when I saw this and the people ignoring her I just felt sad and disgusted...
EDIT: yeah the rage is coming now
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EPT
