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We are extremely close to shutting down this thread for the same reasons the PUA thread was shut down. While some of the time this thread contains actual discussion with people asking help and people giving nice advice, it often gets derailed by rubbish that should not be here. The moderation team will be trying to steer this thread in a different direction from now on.
Posts of the following nature are banned:
1) ANYTHING regarding PUA. If your post contains the words 'alpha' or 'beta' or anything of that sort please don't hit post.
2) Stupid brags. You can tell us about your nice success stories with someone, but posts such as 'lol 50 Tinder matches' are a no-no.
3) Any misogynistic bullshit, including discussion about rape culture.
4) One night stands and random sex. These are basically brags that invariably devolve into gender role discussions and misogynistic comments.
Last chance, guys. This thread is for dating advice and sharing dating stories. While gender roles, sociocultural norms, and our biological imperative to reproduce are all tangentially related, these subjects are not the main purpose of the thread. Please AVOID these discussions. If you want to discuss them at length, go to PMs or start a blog. If you disagree with someone's ideologies, state that you disagree with them and why they won't work from a dating standpoint and move on. We will not tolerate any lengthy derailments that aren't directly about dating. |
On August 23 2014 23:10 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2014 23:08 levelping wrote:On August 23 2014 23:00 r.Evo wrote:
Actually you, levelping and dravenor all jumped from "she made me wait for 30 minutes" to "don't deal with people who play games like that" after someone just mentioned it might have been a test. So, yeah, you jumped to that conclusion pretty quickly and without further information. =P
I'm saying there is no need for that because there are ways to handle it like an adult instead of instantly ditching the person (e.g. giving the other person an opening to fix it "Sister, I'm sitting here since 5 minutes and I think you'll need 30 more. Mind if I chill inside and get a coffee?"). O I see. Well I can clear this up quickly. If you read most of the posts from the original posters, he's talking avout a series of girls who do things like make him waite and take a long time to reply. Yes his last scenario was waiting for 30 minutes, but I thought it would be pretty obvious that we were addressing his point in general and not just his last scenario Anyway even if this was just about the last 30 minutes, if a girl purposely wastes thirty minutes just to "test" me, I think I'd stick my advice still that these people aren't worth the time. 30 minutes with legit reasons sure. 30 minutes just to test me... Okay sorry I have better things to do. The way I see it is if you meet a certain pattern again and again it just might be your fault. Take this for example: Show nested quote +On August 23 2014 10:47 phyren wrote:
Holy shit, I'm getting salty. Why are women so bad about making plans? I swear, it's like half a dozen different girls over the past few months that are always late or taking forever to text back. I would just assume they aren't into me, except they do eventually get back and want to do something. Then they are late to that something. I was supposed to meet this girl after work tonight. Then she texts me like an hour and a half late to say her phone was lost/died. She says she still wants to go out, but she's gonna eat something at home first. 2 hours later, and I have no idea wtf is up. Our person in question (sorry <3, let's hope you get something out of this) is willing to wait more than 3 fucking hours for a date with no further information. That's where it starts. If that happens to me and she's somewhere between 10-30 minutes late to what we agreed upon without any further info I call up another friend (or potential date) and ask if they wanna do something. Done. If the initial person takes that as an insult I don't want them around me, if they are genuinely sorry about it they get another chance. In either case my actions make it very clear that I don't tolerate that kind of behavior. OP has a tendency to fall for those spots without showing his values and what he's willing to do for them. If we take the 30 minute wait time case, same deal. Give the person a chance to fix it (see above) and if they don't take it ("Oh no, just a moment!" - suddenly 5 more minutes without her showing up) verbalize it and make it clear that you don't like that kind of behavior without making a big deal out of it ("This kind of stuff brings me in a bad mood which means neither of us will have fun which means we're both wasting our time. Mind hurrying up or sweetening my wait time? I'd love to see if we both can have fun in a good mood."). For example personally I literally don't care about a reason unless someone died or there was an accident. I expect a short info that tells me what's up. Since I make that clear as soon as it comes up I rarely spend more than 30 minutes of my life on people who don't live up to that. No need for dozens of chances or to wait until it shows up as a pattern. If you don't handle it that kind of way I think it's really hard to figure out if it was an intentional test, a bad habit or an unintentional mistake.
I actually think my posts and dbs' posts don't disagree with this, since we are also telling the op to not waste time with people like that.
Also xiphos thanks for quoting your post which suggests that we are letting chances insidiously pass us by and that we are missing out. I didn't see the need to call you shallow or manipulative (and I still don't) so I don't know why you saw the need to suggest we are having chances pass us by, or for that matter, boring. Also, I am able to deeply enjoy Closer (the movie/play) without partaking in infidelity, and the Passion of Christ while being atheist. It's just movies/tv, and I have no idea why you think it reflective of the personal values of the viewer.
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On August 23 2014 23:08 Xiphos wrote:
DPB: If you value honesty so much, then you shouldn't ever watch shows like Suits where manipulation occurs 24/7. That's hypocrisy.
You and Levelping are definitely missing the point really.
What has been said is that if one think that getting with a particular girl is worth the time, one shouldn't hesitate to pull out all the strategies in the book to reach that goal.
As r.Evo said, it akin to a knife. Those "manipulation" are weapons that you can choose from. If you ain't using them, then you are already in a such a huge disadvantage and you will miss a lot of opportunity and will definitely have a lot of regret in the future.
But that's none of my business. If you want those chances to insidiously pass you by, by all means, go ahead and do that.
That's a horrible way to look at dating/relationships imo. the point of a relationship isnt to manipulate the other person its to actually enjoy being with them as they are. Also if your goal is just 'getting with' a particular girl as you say, thats very different than trying to actually establish a relationship
EDIT: all the 'strategies' and stuff the way it was said just makes it seem like you're not actually focusing on the girl as a person, just what you want from her.
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On August 23 2014 23:22 Grumbels wrote:
It does remind me of a friend of mine who is always unreliable and late with everything, but I think it's because she's naturally very shy and not drawn to interacting with other people. It used to annoy me until I realized she didn't act that way specifically because of me, but that it was a larger aspect of her personality that would also affect communication with other people.
I think r.Evo has some notion that there is a "manipulative dimension" to every single interaction, but I don't agree. You could approach all relationships strategically, in terms of how you should act to achieve certain goals, but I don't think you can keep that up and it's not healthy to regardless. It's a lot more typical to eventually drop your guard and just act naturally at which point the strategical part of interaction is gone.
Those things are totally fine if they're communicated. One group of friends of mine basically says "8pm" and everyone knows it means "show up between 8 and 9 and grab a drink until the others show up while one dude will fail horribly and call that he'll be there at 9:30". It's just shitty when you add a new person, tell them "8pm" without mentioning the extra. =P
What I mean by manipulative dimension is that it's pretty much impossible to communicate without influencing someone. If I do something as simple as buying a busticket and the driver is super happy it will have a small influence just like if he's super depressed. If my girlfriend comes home and tells me a story from her workplace I'll be influenced by it just like she'll be influenced by my reaction. That's kind of what I mean when I say "there is no communication without manipulation", that doesn't mean to try and approach all those things consciously but it means to accept it and use it consciously when you're in and the mood there's a positive outcome to be had.
To bring the topic back around, I don't think there is anything bad about doing something to communicate to a woman you like her, no matter if it's conscious ("manipulating") or unconscious ("normal"). What matters is that we communicate what we want to communicate as clear as possible to not mislead someone from our actual intent. If we have to use our brain for that to get it done purposefully, so be it.
e: Note that that's a huge difference from doing something to gain some kind of "achievement". Communicating that she's the love of your life to get her into bed would fall into the category of using said tool negatively in my book.
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On August 23 2014 23:31 Pazuzu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2014 23:08 Xiphos wrote:
DPB: If you value honesty so much, then you shouldn't ever watch shows like Suits where manipulation occurs 24/7. That's hypocrisy.
You and Levelping are definitely missing the point really.
What has been said is that if one think that getting with a particular girl is worth the time, one shouldn't hesitate to pull out all the strategies in the book to reach that goal.
As r.Evo said, it akin to a knife. Those "manipulation" are weapons that you can choose from. If you ain't using them, then you are already in a such a huge disadvantage and you will miss a lot of opportunity and will definitely have a lot of regret in the future.
But that's none of my business. If you want those chances to insidiously pass you by, by all means, go ahead and do that. That's a horrible way to look at dating/relationships imo. the point of a relationship isnt to manipulate the other person its to actually enjoy being with them as they are. Also if your goal is just 'getting with' a particular girl as you say, thats very different than trying to actually establish a relationship EDIT: all the 'strategies' and stuff the way it was said just makes it seem like you're not actually focusing on the girl as a person, just what you want from her.
I see a girl in a StarBucks.
She is reading a book that I fancied before.
I want to talk to her about it in its philosophy and hopefully go out with her and see if we have a viable future together.
But first thing first, she have to like me.
And in order for her to like me, there are some certain action that I must do and mustn't do to surge the attraction.
Things I can do: be friendly and make remarks to the book.
Things that if I did would probably pushed her away: have bad breath.
I am manipulating the variables to maximize my "luck" to have a conversation that perhaps can turn to a romance.
This is manipulation.
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On August 23 2014 23:45 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2014 23:31 Pazuzu wrote:On August 23 2014 23:08 Xiphos wrote:
DPB: If you value honesty so much, then you shouldn't ever watch shows like Suits where manipulation occurs 24/7. That's hypocrisy.
You and Levelping are definitely missing the point really.
What has been said is that if one think that getting with a particular girl is worth the time, one shouldn't hesitate to pull out all the strategies in the book to reach that goal.
As r.Evo said, it akin to a knife. Those "manipulation" are weapons that you can choose from. If you ain't using them, then you are already in a such a huge disadvantage and you will miss a lot of opportunity and will definitely have a lot of regret in the future.
But that's none of my business. If you want those chances to insidiously pass you by, by all means, go ahead and do that. That's a horrible way to look at dating/relationships imo. the point of a relationship isnt to manipulate the other person its to actually enjoy being with them as they are. Also if your goal is just 'getting with' a particular girl as you say, thats very different than trying to actually establish a relationship EDIT: all the 'strategies' and stuff the way it was said just makes it seem like you're not actually focusing on the girl as a person, just what you want from her. I see a girl in a StarBucks. She is reading a book that I fancied before. I want to talk to her about it in its philosophy and hopefully go out with her and see if we have a viable future together. But first thing first, she have to like me. And in order for her to like me, there are some certain action that I must do and mustn't do to surge the attraction. Things I can do: be friendly and make remarks to the book. Things that if I did would probably pushed her away: have bad breath. I am manipulating the variables to maximize my "luck" to have a conversation that perhaps can turn to a romance. This is manipulation.
I think not having bad breath is kinda just basic hygiene. And really you don't need a girl to like you for you to talk to her about a book.
And sure if that's the definition of manipulation you want, then it isn't the thing we are taking objection with.
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Xiphos your strawman with Suits isn't worth any more time. I'm not going to respond any more to that absurd idea. Enjoy your day.
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guys pls i subscribed to this thread for the stories not some discussion on manipulation thats dragged on too long
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RE: manipulation discussion
+ Show Spoiler +On August 23 2014 23:32 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2014 23:22 Grumbels wrote:
I think r.Evo has some notion that there is a "manipulative dimension" to every single interaction, but I don't agree. You could approach all relationships strategically, in terms of how you should act to achieve certain goals, but I don't think you can keep that up and it's not healthy to regardless. It's a lot more typical to eventually drop your guard and just act naturally at which point the strategical part of interaction is gone. What I mean by manipulative dimension is that it's pretty much impossible to communicate without influencing someone. If I do something as simple as buying a busticket and the driver is super happy it will have a small influence just like if he's super depressed. If my girlfriend comes home and tells me a story from her workplace I'll be influenced by it just like she'll be influenced by my reaction. That's kind of what I mean when I say "there is no communication without manipulation", that doesn't mean to try and approach all those things consciously but it means to accept it and use it consciously when you're in and the mood there's a positive outcome to be had. If you communicate with someone you influence them, but that's looking at the functional aspects of communication. There is also a psychological aspect to it, and I think that there is a clear difference between (sub)consciously trying to influence someone to achieve a goal and acting naturally and doing so regardless. i.e. donating to charity out of genuine compassion or out of some ploy to look good might have the same effect on a superficial level, but only one of those gets you into heaven.
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Stop arguing guys and pray for me, tonight I'm going out with a girl and her girl friend who 'she likes to kiss'.
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On August 24 2014 00:17 SoSexy wrote:
Stop arguing guys and pray for me, tonight I'm going out with a girl and her girl friend who 'she likes to kiss'.
You know that's gonna end with you watching them right? 
Just kidding, good luck!
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On August 23 2014 23:59 evilfatsh1t wrote:
guys pls i subscribed to this thread for the stories not some discussion on manipulation thats dragged on too long
Understanding how to communicate effectively and be honest with someone are two very important aspects of dating and relationships (imho). It was relevant advice 
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On August 23 2014 23:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Xiphos your strawman with Suits isn't worth any more time. I'm not going to respond any more to that absurd idea. Enjoy your day.
If you are going to concede, at least get the definition of "strawman" correctly.
Strawman creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition.
Never changed my stance regarding the subject we are trying to relate one tiny bit. As matter of fact, I've only cemented it.
On August 23 2014 23:49 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2014 23:45 Xiphos wrote:On August 23 2014 23:31 Pazuzu wrote:On August 23 2014 23:08 Xiphos wrote:
DPB: If you value honesty so much, then you shouldn't ever watch shows like Suits where manipulation occurs 24/7. That's hypocrisy.
You and Levelping are definitely missing the point really.
What has been said is that if one think that getting with a particular girl is worth the time, one shouldn't hesitate to pull out all the strategies in the book to reach that goal.
As r.Evo said, it akin to a knife. Those "manipulation" are weapons that you can choose from. If you ain't using them, then you are already in a such a huge disadvantage and you will miss a lot of opportunity and will definitely have a lot of regret in the future.
But that's none of my business. If you want those chances to insidiously pass you by, by all means, go ahead and do that. That's a horrible way to look at dating/relationships imo. the point of a relationship isnt to manipulate the other person its to actually enjoy being with them as they are. Also if your goal is just 'getting with' a particular girl as you say, thats very different than trying to actually establish a relationship EDIT: all the 'strategies' and stuff the way it was said just makes it seem like you're not actually focusing on the girl as a person, just what you want from her. I see a girl in a StarBucks. She is reading a book that I fancied before. I want to talk to her about it in its philosophy and hopefully go out with her and see if we have a viable future together. But first thing first, she have to like me. And in order for her to like me, there are some certain action that I must do and mustn't do to surge the attraction. Things I can do: be friendly and make remarks to the book. Things that if I did would probably pushed her away: have bad breath. I am manipulating the variables to maximize my "luck" to have a conversation that perhaps can turn to a romance. This is manipulation. I think not having bad breath is kinda just basic hygiene. And really you don't need a girl to like you for you to talk to her about a book. And sure if that's the definition of manipulation you want, then it isn't the thing we are taking objection with.
Sure you can talk on the surface regarding the material such as telling her that you've also read it to which she can just reply with "Nice". But for her to engage in a full scale sharing of POV regarding it and actually asking your opinion, she will have to have a bit of fondness toward you for that to occur or she can easily end the conversation by leaving or otherwise.
The point is that manipulation happens everywhere. If you want something, you've got to manipulate the variables to get it or else what you want will never materialize.
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On August 24 2014 05:10 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2014 23:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Xiphos your strawman with Suits isn't worth any more time. I'm not going to respond any more to that absurd idea. Enjoy your day. If you are going to concede, at least get the definition of "strawman" correctly. Strawman creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition. Never changed my stance regarding the subject we are trying to relate one tiny bit. As matter of fact, I've only cemented it. Show nested quote +On August 23 2014 23:49 levelping wrote:On August 23 2014 23:45 Xiphos wrote:On August 23 2014 23:31 Pazuzu wrote:On August 23 2014 23:08 Xiphos wrote:
DPB: If you value honesty so much, then you shouldn't ever watch shows like Suits where manipulation occurs 24/7. That's hypocrisy.
You and Levelping are definitely missing the point really.
What has been said is that if one think that getting with a particular girl is worth the time, one shouldn't hesitate to pull out all the strategies in the book to reach that goal.
As r.Evo said, it akin to a knife. Those "manipulation" are weapons that you can choose from. If you ain't using them, then you are already in a such a huge disadvantage and you will miss a lot of opportunity and will definitely have a lot of regret in the future.
But that's none of my business. If you want those chances to insidiously pass you by, by all means, go ahead and do that. That's a horrible way to look at dating/relationships imo. the point of a relationship isnt to manipulate the other person its to actually enjoy being with them as they are. Also if your goal is just 'getting with' a particular girl as you say, thats very different than trying to actually establish a relationship EDIT: all the 'strategies' and stuff the way it was said just makes it seem like you're not actually focusing on the girl as a person, just what you want from her. I see a girl in a StarBucks. She is reading a book that I fancied before. I want to talk to her about it in its philosophy and hopefully go out with her and see if we have a viable future together. But first thing first, she have to like me. And in order for her to like me, there are some certain action that I must do and mustn't do to surge the attraction. Things I can do: be friendly and make remarks to the book. Things that if I did would probably pushed her away: have bad breath. I am manipulating the variables to maximize my "luck" to have a conversation that perhaps can turn to a romance. This is manipulation. I think not having bad breath is kinda just basic hygiene. And really you don't need a girl to like you for you to talk to her about a book. And sure if that's the definition of manipulation you want, then it isn't the thing we are taking objection with. Sure you can talk on the surface regarding the material such as telling her that you've also read it to which she can just reply with "Nice". But for her to engage in a full scale sharing of POV regarding it and actually asking your opinion, she will have to have a bit of fondness toward you for that to occur or she can easily end the conversation by leaving or otherwise. The point is that manipulation happens everywhere. If you want something, you've got to manipulate the variables to get it or else what you want will never materialize.
Again if you're using such a broad definition of manipulation, that's not what me, DPB, or the OP was objecting to. I mean if that is your main argument, then why bother arguing because it is almost by definition true that people communicate and relate to each other, and in so doing make concious decisions to please/put off. We were objecting to a specific behaviour and not human relations in general. If I told a girl I've read a book she's reading and she says "nice", the natural follow up is to ask how's she's finding it so far, and I don't think she needs to like you for you to say that.
You also have a really strange notion of what is a strawman.
Anyway, this is veering off course, and your example about reading books reminded me of how I got an ex-girlfriend really interested in reading when she did not read very much previously. She went from reading the random magazine to making her way down my bookshelf reading Nabokov, Heller, Ishiguro, etc. She even picked up on obscure local authors which I had never heard about. I think that is one of the cooler parts about being in a close relationship, finding out and getting into people's hobbies. Another instance was when I sat down another girl and said look I really need to watch Mvp v Squirtle in the GSL finals, and you can either laze in bed or sit here and I'll try to explain. And despite not knowing any starcraft, she roughly got what was going on and when the best 11/11 rax of all time started, she was yelling right along with me. Good times.
Anyone else have good (or bad) experiences with getting someone else into your hobbies, or you into theirs?
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Oh my fucking god you guys nobody cares about your bullshit discussion on the definition of manipulation or whatever. Stop being so selfish and start your only little debate club where you can discuss this shit as long as you want.
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Ok, so I went out with the two girls and friends. The night was at an amazing point, we were about to move to a quieter place and then out of nothing one of their mums comes to pick them up by car (they're 18 but no driving license yet).I drank a bit and this car was really near to the sidewalk, so I opened my arms to communicate something like 'don't come so close, do you know how to drive?'. Then I turned back and the girls were already in the car, Today one of them texted 'mum is super angry'.
S***
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On August 24 2014 11:00 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2014 05:10 Xiphos wrote:On August 23 2014 23:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Xiphos your strawman with Suits isn't worth any more time. I'm not going to respond any more to that absurd idea. Enjoy your day. If you are going to concede, at least get the definition of "strawman" correctly. Strawman creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition. Never changed my stance regarding the subject we are trying to relate one tiny bit. As matter of fact, I've only cemented it. On August 23 2014 23:49 levelping wrote:On August 23 2014 23:45 Xiphos wrote:On August 23 2014 23:31 Pazuzu wrote:On August 23 2014 23:08 Xiphos wrote:
DPB: If you value honesty so much, then you shouldn't ever watch shows like Suits where manipulation occurs 24/7. That's hypocrisy.
You and Levelping are definitely missing the point really.
What has been said is that if one think that getting with a particular girl is worth the time, one shouldn't hesitate to pull out all the strategies in the book to reach that goal.
As r.Evo said, it akin to a knife. Those "manipulation" are weapons that you can choose from. If you ain't using them, then you are already in a such a huge disadvantage and you will miss a lot of opportunity and will definitely have a lot of regret in the future.
But that's none of my business. If you want those chances to insidiously pass you by, by all means, go ahead and do that. That's a horrible way to look at dating/relationships imo. the point of a relationship isnt to manipulate the other person its to actually enjoy being with them as they are. Also if your goal is just 'getting with' a particular girl as you say, thats very different than trying to actually establish a relationship EDIT: all the 'strategies' and stuff the way it was said just makes it seem like you're not actually focusing on the girl as a person, just what you want from her. I see a girl in a StarBucks. She is reading a book that I fancied before. I want to talk to her about it in its philosophy and hopefully go out with her and see if we have a viable future together. But first thing first, she have to like me. And in order for her to like me, there are some certain action that I must do and mustn't do to surge the attraction. Things I can do: be friendly and make remarks to the book. Things that if I did would probably pushed her away: have bad breath. I am manipulating the variables to maximize my "luck" to have a conversation that perhaps can turn to a romance. This is manipulation. I think not having bad breath is kinda just basic hygiene. And really you don't need a girl to like you for you to talk to her about a book. And sure if that's the definition of manipulation you want, then it isn't the thing we are taking objection with. Sure you can talk on the surface regarding the material such as telling her that you've also read it to which she can just reply with "Nice". But for her to engage in a full scale sharing of POV regarding it and actually asking your opinion, she will have to have a bit of fondness toward you for that to occur or she can easily end the conversation by leaving or otherwise. The point is that manipulation happens everywhere. If you want something, you've got to manipulate the variables to get it or else what you want will never materialize. Again if you're using such a broad definition of manipulation, that's not what me, DPB, or the OP was objecting to. I mean if that is your main argument, then why bother arguing because it is almost by definition true that people communicate and relate to each other, and in so doing make concious decisions to please/put off. We were objecting to a specific behaviour and not human relations in general. If I told a girl I've read a book she's reading and she says "nice", the natural follow up is to ask how's she's finding it so far, and I don't think she needs to like you for you to say that. You also have a really strange notion of what is a strawman. Anyway, this is veering off course, and your example about reading books reminded me of how I got an ex-girlfriend really interested in reading when she did not read very much previously. She went from reading the random magazine to making her way down my bookshelf reading Nabokov, Heller, Ishiguro, etc. She even picked up on obscure local authors which I had never heard about. I think that is one of the cooler parts about being in a close relationship, finding out and getting into people's hobbies. Another instance was when I sat down another girl and said look I really need to watch Mvp v Squirtle in the GSL finals, and you can either laze in bed or sit here and I'll try to explain. And despite not knowing any starcraft, she roughly got what was going on and when the best 11/11 rax of all time started, she was yelling right along with me. Good times. Anyone else have good (or bad) experiences with getting someone else into your hobbies, or you into theirs?
you've got balls doing that to women in singapore, i'll give you that.
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Wow, this thread has really taken a nose-dive.
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On August 24 2014 18:01 SixStrings wrote:
Wow, this thread has really taken a nose-dive.
It's actually impressive since I thought it nose dived to rock bottom over 100 pages ago :p
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On August 24 2014 17:38 kaykaykay wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2014 11:00 levelping wrote:On August 24 2014 05:10 Xiphos wrote:On August 23 2014 23:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Xiphos your strawman with Suits isn't worth any more time. I'm not going to respond any more to that absurd idea. Enjoy your day. If you are going to concede, at least get the definition of "strawman" correctly. Strawman creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition. Never changed my stance regarding the subject we are trying to relate one tiny bit. As matter of fact, I've only cemented it. On August 23 2014 23:49 levelping wrote:On August 23 2014 23:45 Xiphos wrote:On August 23 2014 23:31 Pazuzu wrote:On August 23 2014 23:08 Xiphos wrote:
DPB: If you value honesty so much, then you shouldn't ever watch shows like Suits where manipulation occurs 24/7. That's hypocrisy.
You and Levelping are definitely missing the point really.
What has been said is that if one think that getting with a particular girl is worth the time, one shouldn't hesitate to pull out all the strategies in the book to reach that goal.
As r.Evo said, it akin to a knife. Those "manipulation" are weapons that you can choose from. If you ain't using them, then you are already in a such a huge disadvantage and you will miss a lot of opportunity and will definitely have a lot of regret in the future.
But that's none of my business. If you want those chances to insidiously pass you by, by all means, go ahead and do that. That's a horrible way to look at dating/relationships imo. the point of a relationship isnt to manipulate the other person its to actually enjoy being with them as they are. Also if your goal is just 'getting with' a particular girl as you say, thats very different than trying to actually establish a relationship EDIT: all the 'strategies' and stuff the way it was said just makes it seem like you're not actually focusing on the girl as a person, just what you want from her. I see a girl in a StarBucks. She is reading a book that I fancied before. I want to talk to her about it in its philosophy and hopefully go out with her and see if we have a viable future together. But first thing first, she have to like me. And in order for her to like me, there are some certain action that I must do and mustn't do to surge the attraction. Things I can do: be friendly and make remarks to the book. Things that if I did would probably pushed her away: have bad breath. I am manipulating the variables to maximize my "luck" to have a conversation that perhaps can turn to a romance. This is manipulation. I think not having bad breath is kinda just basic hygiene. And really you don't need a girl to like you for you to talk to her about a book. And sure if that's the definition of manipulation you want, then it isn't the thing we are taking objection with. Sure you can talk on the surface regarding the material such as telling her that you've also read it to which she can just reply with "Nice". But for her to engage in a full scale sharing of POV regarding it and actually asking your opinion, she will have to have a bit of fondness toward you for that to occur or she can easily end the conversation by leaving or otherwise. The point is that manipulation happens everywhere. If you want something, you've got to manipulate the variables to get it or else what you want will never materialize. Again if you're using such a broad definition of manipulation, that's not what me, DPB, or the OP was objecting to. I mean if that is your main argument, then why bother arguing because it is almost by definition true that people communicate and relate to each other, and in so doing make concious decisions to please/put off. We were objecting to a specific behaviour and not human relations in general. If I told a girl I've read a book she's reading and she says "nice", the natural follow up is to ask how's she's finding it so far, and I don't think she needs to like you for you to say that. You also have a really strange notion of what is a strawman. Anyway, this is veering off course, and your example about reading books reminded me of how I got an ex-girlfriend really interested in reading when she did not read very much previously. She went from reading the random magazine to making her way down my bookshelf reading Nabokov, Heller, Ishiguro, etc. She even picked up on obscure local authors which I had never heard about. I think that is one of the cooler parts about being in a close relationship, finding out and getting into people's hobbies. Another instance was when I sat down another girl and said look I really need to watch Mvp v Squirtle in the GSL finals, and you can either laze in bed or sit here and I'll try to explain. And despite not knowing any starcraft, she roughly got what was going on and when the best 11/11 rax of all time started, she was yelling right along with me. Good times. Anyone else have good (or bad) experiences with getting someone else into your hobbies, or you into theirs? you've got balls doing that to women in singapore, i'll give you that.
Actually I feel that it's not a huge stigma being a geek in Singapore, as compared to other places. I mean we all study and work like there's no tomorrow haha. So talking about games isn't top impossible.
Random conversations are pretty hard though.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 24 2014 18:17 Orcasgt24 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2014 18:01 SixStrings wrote:
Wow, this thread has really taken a nose-dive. It's actually impressive since I thought it nose dived to rock bottom over 100 pages ago :p
at this point it's burrowing underground
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EPT
