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We are extremely close to shutting down this thread for the same reasons the PUA thread was shut down. While some of the time this thread contains actual discussion with people asking help and people giving nice advice, it often gets derailed by rubbish that should not be here. The moderation team will be trying to steer this thread in a different direction from now on.
Posts of the following nature are banned:
1) ANYTHING regarding PUA. If your post contains the words 'alpha' or 'beta' or anything of that sort please don't hit post.
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Last chance, guys. This thread is for dating advice and sharing dating stories. While gender roles, sociocultural norms, and our biological imperative to reproduce are all tangentially related, these subjects are not the main purpose of the thread. Please AVOID these discussions. If you want to discuss them at length, go to PMs or start a blog. If you disagree with someone's ideologies, state that you disagree with them and why they won't work from a dating standpoint and move on. We will not tolerate any lengthy derailments that aren't directly about dating. |
On August 23 2014 11:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Don't date women (or men) who play bullshit games like that. This whole "test" shit is stupid. Date honest people who are straightforward with you. This is the right advice. If she's gonna pull a venue change or cancel at the last dying second AND it isn't an actual car breakdown/sudden illness of a friend or relative/traffic, she's playing games with you or not very interested in you or both. That action by her starts your search for the next girl, because there's no point dealing in somebody that inconsiderate.
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Netherlands6181 Posts
It is just rude and disrespectful to do something like that. You don't want to be in a relationship who is immature enough to play games with you and wouldn't even give up their seat for an old lady on a full bus.
TLDR what everyone else said.
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Yeah I disagree with xiphos. Unless you enjoy that stuff, or are young with lots of time, just don't bother with people that play games.
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This is what you are saying: "Don't be fun and spontaneous, be boring and dull."
You must be a hoot to hang with.
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I have no idea how you read that in what I said.
These sorts of games aren't my idea of fun or being spontaneous. I much rather spend the time and effort on people I care about or are worth caring about.
But if you like doing that sure go ahead. Why do you need to call me boring to validate what you enjoy.
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On August 23 2014 20:59 Xiphos wrote:
This is what you are saying: "Don't be fun and spontaneous, be boring and dull."
You must be a hoot to hang with.
To be clear, the bullshit games and tests that I'm talking about are the whole "Let's purposely wait for hours before returning a text message/ let's purposely play hard to get/ let's see how many times I can change his plans and piss him off and see if he still pursues me".
This has nothing to do with being fun or dull. This has all to do with purposely manipulating someone who's interested in you just to watch them squirm. It's dishonest, hurtful, and it wastes their time.
Granted, there may very well be the occasional justification for why you didn't hear back quickly from a girl (maybe her phone did die or maybe she got super preoccupied with something legitimate), but over time you start to realize if her repeated excuses are justifiable reasons, or bullshit games. And I recommend that you don't continue to pursue someone who falls into the latter category, because the relationship will just be you jumping through hoops to appease her.
This has nothing to do with spontaneity, and all to do with communication and honesty, which are two fundamental principles of a successful relationship.
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On August 23 2014 22:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2014 20:59 Xiphos wrote:
This is what you are saying: "Don't be fun and spontaneous, be boring and dull."
You must be a hoot to hang with. To be clear, the bullshit games and tests that I'm talking about are the whole "Let's purposely wait for hours before returning a text message/ let's purposely play hard to get/ let's see how many times I can change his plans and piss him off and see if he still pursues me". This has nothing to do with being fun or dull. This has all to do with purposely manipulating someone who's interested in you just to watch them squirm. It's dishonest, hurtful, and it wastes their time. Granted, there may very well be the occasional justification for why you didn't hear back quickly from a girl (maybe her phone did die or maybe she got super preoccupied with something legitimate), but over time you start to realize if her repeated excuses are justifiable reasons, or bullshit games. And I recommend that you don't continue to pursue someone who falls into the latter category, because the relationship will just be you jumping through hoops to appease her. This has nothing to do with spontaneity, and all to do with communication and honesty, which are two fundamental principles of a successful relationship.
You're both completely missing the point. It's irrelevant whether it's on purpose or not, just like it's irrelevant what you specifically do to deal with it - presenting a strong frame that says "this might work with other people but not with me" makes you more attractive/puts you higher up the social ladder in any case. Everyone does these little frame tests with everyone else, we just usually don't notice them or pay attention. If they do it intentional, fuck 'em by being better at it, if they do it by accident, educate them.
Establishing some form of hierarchic order is a basic component to human interaction. Manipulating everyone you communicate with (and ever communicated with) is unavoidable. Knowing how to react in common situations where your frame gets tested or knowing how to manipulate someone towards an intended direction isn't more or less than being conscious of what you communicate to the people around you.
People hear a buzzword like "manipulate" and assume it's something horrible. It's not, it's a tool like any skill. What people do with it is their personal responsibility. It's like being afraid of a knife instead of someone who has no clue how to use one and ends up unintentionally hurting himself or people around him with it.
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Er of course we're not that naive. People are gauged and judged all the time and that's fine. We interact with people and respond and hey that's okay too.
We're referring to things like purposely being late, or having a rule like not replying a message for hours. I think this goes well beyond normal assessment, and goes to just being obtuse for the sake of it.
I don't know about you but I've got a full time job which makes my free time pretty precious. And if people are going to do that it is incredibly unattractive and a huge waste of time which I rather spend elsewhere.
Edit: Darkplasmaball gets it. Though maybe more angrily.
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r.Evo,
Everyone does these little frame tests with everyone else
No. Not to the extent we're talking about.
Manipulating everyone you communicate with (and ever communicated with) is unavoidable
No. Not to the extent we're talking about.
If they do it intentional, fuck 'em by being better at it
No. Not to the extent we're talking about.
It's very unfortunate that your experiences lead you to believe that everyone is doing these things, presumably because you've encountered a bunch of these kinds of people and you probably do it yourself. And fine, do whatever you want to do; it's your life. But rest assured that there are plenty of us who care about honesty and communication and try to have a healthy relationship not based around backstabbing, being dodgey, or pulling manipulative bullshit just to frustrate people.
EDIT: levelping knows what's up.
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On August 23 2014 22:37 levelping wrote:
Er of course we're not that naive. People are gauged and judged all the time and that's fine. We interact with people and respond and hey that's okay too.
We're referring to things like purposely being late, or having a rule like not replying a message for hours.
I don't know about you but I've got a full time job which makes my free time pretty precious. And if people are going to do that it is incredibly unattractive and a huge waste of time which I rather spend elsewhere.
What I'm trying to get at is that just because a chick tells a guy that she'll "be right out" and takes 30 minutes there's no reason to explode and tell her to fuck off because she might have done it completely by accident with no ill intent at all. The cool way to handle it is to either ask if you can wait inside or give her 5 minutes and then ask her if you can chill inside and get a coffee for all this wait time.
Yes, technically if she was a perfect human being she'd realize she'll take longer, invite us in and offer us a drink while she gets ready. But shit happens. By being aware of how to best handle shit we can screen faster for those who're just assholes. The least we can do is to be socially smart before we shove someone in that category.
@above: You guys just turned "she told me she will take a moment and took 30 minutes instead" into one huge humanitarian crisis which makes her a horrible human being. It's not, don't pretend it is.
Also yes, if you can't see that any human communication implies influencing another being you're really missing the point. That has nothing to do with "backstabbing, being dodgey, or pulling manipulative bullshit just to frustrate people".
@below (LOL): I disagree with Xiphos who seems to recommend specific techniques to handle things (since it's more about the principle behind) and I disagree with you because you started talking about purposefully making someone wait before we ever figured out what was going on with the poster who started the whole ordeal. If that was just an excursion because of what Xiphos said, no worries, we're on the same page. =P
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On August 23 2014 22:47 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2014 22:37 levelping wrote:
Er of course we're not that naive. People are gauged and judged all the time and that's fine. We interact with people and respond and hey that's okay too.
We're referring to things like purposely being late, or having a rule like not replying a message for hours.
I don't know about you but I've got a full time job which makes my free time pretty precious. And if people are going to do that it is incredibly unattractive and a huge waste of time which I rather spend elsewhere. What I'm trying to get at is that just because a chick tells a guy that she'll "be right out" and takes 30 minutes there's no reason to explode and tell her to fuck off because she might have done it completely by accident with no ill intent at all. The cool way to handle it is to either ask if you can wait inside or give her 5 minutes and then ask her if you can chill inside and get a coffee for all this wait time. Yes, technically if she was a perfect human being she'd realize she'll take longer, invite us in and offer us a drink while she gets ready. But shit happens. By being aware of how to best handle shit we can screen faster for those who're just assholes. The least we can do is to be socially smart before we shove someone in that category.
That's exactly what I said and you said I was "completely missing the point" -_____-'
I said:
"Granted, there may very well be the occasional justification for why you didn't hear back quickly from a girl (maybe her phone did die or maybe she got super preoccupied with something legitimate), but over time you start to realize if her repeated excuses are justifiable reasons, or bullshit games. And I recommend that you don't continue to pursue someone who falls into the latter category, because the relationship will just be you jumping through hoops to appease her."
So now you're... agreeing with me (/us /everyone except possibly Xiphos)?
EDIT: I talked repeatedly about how it's a problem if it's "on purpose" rather than accidental with the rest of my comment.
Another snippet I said:
"To be clear, the bullshit games and tests that I'm talking about are the whole "Let's purposely wait for hours before returning a text message/ let's purposely play hard to get/ let's see how many times I can change his plans and piss him off and see if he still pursues me". " etc. etc.
It just looks like you're attacking a strawman argument, to think that we all said you should jump to conclusions and judge people without letting them explain their situation. And then you agree with our real argument afterwards of it being bad when it's on purpose, so I don't really understand why you bothered trying to attack us to begin with lol.
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On August 23 2014 22:47 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2014 22:37 levelping wrote:
Er of course we're not that naive. People are gauged and judged all the time and that's fine. We interact with people and respond and hey that's okay too.
We're referring to things like purposely being late, or having a rule like not replying a message for hours.
I don't know about you but I've got a full time job which makes my free time pretty precious. And if people are going to do that it is incredibly unattractive and a huge waste of time which I rather spend elsewhere. What I'm trying to get at is that just because a chick tells a guy that she'll "be right out" and takes 30 minutes there's no reason to explode and tell her to fuck off because she might have done it completely by accident with no ill intent at all. The cool way to handle it is to either ask if you can wait inside or give her 5 minutes and then ask her if you can chill inside and get a coffee for all this wait time. Yes, technically if she was a perfect human being she'd realize she'll take longer, invite us in and offer us a drink while she gets ready. But shit happens. By being aware of how to best handle shit we can screen faster for those who're just assholes. The least we can do is to be socially smart before we shove someone in that category. @above: You guys just turned "she told me she will take a moment and took 30 minutes instead" into one huge humanitarian crisis which makes her a horrible human being. It's not, don't pretend it is.r Also yes, if you can't see that any human communication implies influencing another being you're really missing the point. That has nothing to do with "backstabbing, being dodgey, or pulling manipulative bullshit just to frustrate people". @below (LOL): I disagree with Xiphos who seems to recommend specific techniques to handle things (since it's more about the principle behind) and I disagree with you because you started talking about purposefully making someone wait before we ever figured out what was going on with the poster who started the whole ordeal. If that was just an excursion because of what Xiphos said, no worries, we're on the same page. =P
Please don't mischaracterise what I've said. I said that I don't have time for games I didn't say I won't wait 30 minutes. I also definitely did not say she's a horrible human being, just one I rather not spend time on. Stop creating strawman.
I'd actually give 30 minutes a pass if there's a good reason for it. But if this continues several times across a long period of time, then I don't really see any reason to hang around ESPECIALLY if she is doing it just to play hard to get.
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Actually you, levelping and dravenor all jumped from "she made me wait for 30 minutes" to "don't deal with people who play games like that" after someone just mentioned it might have been a test. So, yeah, you jumped to that conclusion pretty quickly and without further information. =P
I'm saying there is no need for that because there are ways to handle it like an adult instead of instantly ditching the person (e.g. giving the other person an opening to fix it "Sister, I'm sitting here since 5 minutes and I think you'll need 30 more. Mind if I chill inside and get a coffee?").
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On August 23 2014 23:00 r.Evo wrote:
Actually you, levelping and dravenor all jumped from "she made me wait for 30 minutes" to "don't deal with people who play games like that" after someone just mentioned it might have been a test. So, yeah, you jumped to that conclusion pretty quickly and without further information. =P
I'm saying there is no need for that because there are ways to handle it like an adult instead of instantly ditching the person (e.g. giving the other person an opening to fix it "Sister, I'm sitting here since 5 minutes and I think you'll need 30 more. Mind if I chill inside and get a coffee?").
O I see. Well I can clear this up quickly. If you read most of the posts from the original posters, he's talking avout a series of girls who do things like make him waite and take a long time to reply. Yes his last scenario was waiting for 30 minutes, but I thought it would be pretty obvious that we were addressing his point in general and not just his last scenario
Anyway even if this was just about the last 30 minutes, if a girl purposely wastes thirty minutes just to "test" me, I think I'd stick my advice still that these people aren't worth the time. 30 minutes with legit reasons sure. 30 minutes just to test me... Okay sorry I have better things to do.
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DPB: If you value honesty so much, then you shouldn't ever watch shows like Suits where manipulation occurs 24/7. That's hypocrisy.
You and Levelping are definitely missing the point really.
What has been said is that if one think that getting with a particular girl is worth the time, one shouldn't hesitate to pull out all the strategies in the book to reach that goal.
As r.Evo said, it akin to a knife. Those "manipulation" are weapons that you can choose from. If you ain't using them, then you are already in a such a huge disadvantage and you will miss a lot of opportunity and will definitely have a lot of regret in the future.
But that's none of my business. If you want those chances to insidiously pass you by, by all means, go ahead and do that.
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On August 23 2014 23:08 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2014 23:00 r.Evo wrote:
Actually you, levelping and dravenor all jumped from "she made me wait for 30 minutes" to "don't deal with people who play games like that" after someone just mentioned it might have been a test. So, yeah, you jumped to that conclusion pretty quickly and without further information. =P
I'm saying there is no need for that because there are ways to handle it like an adult instead of instantly ditching the person (e.g. giving the other person an opening to fix it "Sister, I'm sitting here since 5 minutes and I think you'll need 30 more. Mind if I chill inside and get a coffee?"). O I see. Well I can clear this up quickly. If you read most of the posts from the original posters, he's talking avout a series of girls who do things like make him waite and take a long time to reply. Yes his last scenario was waiting for 30 minutes, but I thought it would be pretty obvious that we were addressing his point in general and not just his last scenario Anyway even if this was just about the last 30 minutes, if a girl purposely wastes thirty minutes just to "test" me, I think I'd stick my advice still that these people aren't worth the time. 30 minutes with legit reasons sure. 30 minutes just to test me... Okay sorry I have better things to do.
The way I see it is if you meet a certain pattern again and again it just might be your fault.
Take this for example:
On August 23 2014 10:47 phyren wrote:
Holy shit, I'm getting salty. Why are women so bad about making plans? I swear, it's like half a dozen different girls over the past few months that are always late or taking forever to text back. I would just assume they aren't into me, except they do eventually get back and want to do something. Then they are late to that something. I was supposed to meet this girl after work tonight. Then she texts me like an hour and a half late to say her phone was lost/died. She says she still wants to go out, but she's gonna eat something at home first. 2 hours later, and I have no idea wtf is up.
Our person in question (sorry <3, let's hope you get something out of this) is willing to wait more than 3 fucking hours for a date with no further information. That's where it starts. If that happens to me and she's somewhere between 10-30 minutes late to what we agreed upon without any further info I call up another friend (or potential date) and ask if they wanna do something. Done. If the initial person takes that as an insult I don't want them around me, if they are genuinely sorry about it they get another chance. In either case my actions make it very clear that I don't tolerate that kind of behavior.
OP has a tendency to fall for those spots without showing his values and what he's willing to do for them. If we take the 30 minute wait time case, same deal. Give the person a chance to fix it (see above) and if they don't take it ("Oh no, just a moment!" - suddenly 5 more minutes without her showing up) verbalize it and make it clear that you don't like that kind of behavior without making a big deal out of it ("This kind of stuff brings me in a bad mood which means neither of us will have fun which means we're both wasting our time. Mind hurrying up or sweetening my wait time? I'd love to see if we both can have fun in a good mood.").
For example personally I literally don't care about a reason unless someone died or there was an accident. I expect a short info that tells me what's up. Since I make that clear as soon as it comes up I rarely spend more than 30 minutes of my life on people who don't live up to that. No need for dozens of chances or to wait until it shows up as a pattern.
If you don't handle it that kind of way I think it's really hard to figure out if it was an intentional test, a bad habit or an unintentional mistake.
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On August 23 2014 23:08 Xiphos wrote:
DPB: If you value honesty so much, then you shouldn't ever watch shows like Suits where manipulation occurs 24/7. That's hypocrisy.
What? What? Wha... what? I mean, what?
Watching television doesn't mean you act the way those actors do, or support underhanded behavior that exists on a show. What?
This just in: Only murderers (or murder supporters) have seen slasher/ horror/ gore movies like Saw. lol. Because you'd be a hypocrite to not support killing but also watch those kinds of movies?
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I think people can enjoy television shows without wanting their lives to be like television shows. That's a pretty weak retort.
I think me and dbs are just saying that if girls play those games they aren't worth our time, and so there's no need to "bring out the tricks". I mean if you want to, go ahead. Again I don't get why you need to criticised us to validate your own method. If it works for you, go ahead.
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It does remind me of a friend of mine who is always unreliable and late with everything, but I think it's because she's naturally very shy and not drawn to interacting with other people. It used to annoy me until I realized she didn't act that way specifically because of me, but that it was a larger aspect of her personality that would also affect communication with other people.
I think r.Evo has some notion that there is a "manipulative dimension" to every single interaction, but I don't agree. You could approach all relationships strategically, in terms of how you should act to achieve certain goals, but I don't think you can keep that up and it's not healthy to regardless. It's a lot more typical to eventually drop your guard and just act naturally at which point the strategical part of interaction is gone.
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It all depends on how one media medium condemn the action done by the characters or not.
And Suits is based upon a guy who cheated the system to become a prominent lawyer, how he was awarded because of it, and how the big shot lawyer wants to manipulate his way to reach into 2nd in command which they managed to get away with scott free for the most part
That's glorifying the manipulation and shows that the show supports these actions for the most part.
So those who get attached to shows like this definitely enjoy those actions to an extend.
The generalization of horror movies isn't as simple as you've described. Some horror movies have stories where the evil prevails and people end up suffering and others have cases where the evildoers got locked up for good and even got executed.
It all depends on the moral of the story. If you support a show where one certain subject is seen as positive but claim to hate it, then you are either a masochist or a hypocrite. Pick one of the two and get on with your life.
And Leveping, please re-read carefully what I wrote, I explicitly mentioned:
"getting with a particular girl is worth the time"
and
"But that's none of my business. If you want those chances to insidiously pass you by, by all means, go ahead and do that."
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