On October 09 2011 13:41 ShadeR wrote: The US will leave if S.Korea wants them to.
S Korea already asked US to leave 10 years ago. US firmly said no. Today's korean government administration hasn't asked US to leave because of increased north korean threats and china's pushy diplomacy.
I believe it's purely and cost benefit analysis issue. 'asking' the US to leave will not tarnish the relationship but might not work. Delivering an ultimatum like Uzbekistan in 2005 to the US to close down their airbase and get out will tarnish the relationship and will work.
lol at all the hate at the american military. Most of you should be grateful to us if anything. The US looks out for people who are to incompetent to look out for themselves. Our military bases grant protection to your country.
I've read through most of this thread, and I really believe the reason how this particular instance is different than say a regular citizen raping another is that the soldiers, although off duty or what not, are not just representing themselves, but are representing the US military.
In much the same way, a person wearing a school uniform acts as a representative of their school, regardless of the fact that he is just a normal kid beneath his clothes.
What people make of this fact is an entirely different story though.
With 30,000 soldiers there, some rapes will occur.
So what you're saying is because the US has x% of rape in it's own borders, it's up to their citizens worldwide to keep up this % wherever they happen to be? Somehow I think you're trying to justify these rapes.
Rape is NEVER ok.
You're just strawmanning. He was making an observation about the law of large numbers. If you take a big enough sample of people you will find some of them committing crimes, including violent crimes. (As an aside, for those sensational violent crimes, tens of thousands of acts of goodness and indifference are also committed.) But this is the same for lots of demographics. So you can't necessarily generalize that the presence of US troops in Korea is an exportation of rape given that individual tragedies occurred.
Sorry I didn’t read all the pages of comments so this might have already been said but I can verify that US soldiers over here have had their 11:00 curfew put back in place. The girl that got raped in Yongsan was reportedly not a Korean citizen I think someone said she was US and under aged. There was a separate incident in Uijeongbu where a US solider robbed a Korean taxi driver. So 2 incidences of stupidity by 2 very stupid individuals and every solider has their curfew back. I have no more information and not much of an opinion on the subject to be honest.
Also this was 2nd hand information from my friends and not something I've seen on TV or anything so its not even that reliable information except for the curfew tahts definately back.
First think... what ??!? 28k soldier in korea, i knew the mafia that profits of US military contract is strong but they are able to keep 28k soldiers in korea ( not to mnetion 50k in Japan ) in full financial crisis all around the world, i just fell like Russia isn't that corrupt anymore. Second... Is this rape real rape ? There are hundreds upon hundreds of cases where a woman willingly had sex with a man and later called it a rape ( see Julian Assange ). And finally even if it was an actual rape 2 soldiers out of 28k did it, im pretty sure thats a 1:14000 ratio of soldiers doing that which honestly is not that big, considering that non-american soldiers and civilians ( i would assume ) commit this crime as well.Sure the guys should be arrested and sent to jail but thats no reason to hate all the US soldier ( not that i agree with them being there ).
On October 09 2011 14:46 Greg_J wrote: Sorry I didn’t read all the pages of comments so this might have already been said but I can verify that US soldiers over here have had their 11:00 curfew put back in place. The girl that got raped in Yongsan was reportedly not a Korean citizen I think someone said she was US and under aged. There was a separate incident in Uijeongbu where a US solider robbed a Korean taxi driver. So 2 incidences of stupidity by 2 very stupid individuals and every solider has their curfew back. I have no more information and not much of an opinion on the subject to be honest.
Also this was 2nd hand information from my friends and not something I've seen on TV or anything so its not even that reliable information except for the curfew tahts definately back.
Thanks for your update this should be put in the OP
With 30,000 soldiers there, some rapes will occur.
So what you're saying is because the US has x% of rape in it's own borders, it's up to their citizens worldwide to keep up this % wherever they happen to be? Somehow I think you're trying to justify these rapes.
Rape is NEVER ok.
You're just strawmanning. He was making an observation about the law of large numbers. If you take a big enough sample of people you will find some of them committing crimes, including violent crimes. (As an aside, for those sensational violent crimes, tens of thousands of acts of goodness and indifference are also committed.) But this is the same for lots of demographics. So you can't necessarily generalize that the presence of US troops in Korea is an exportation of rape given that individual tragedies occurred.
I had to google what strawmanning was haha. I'm not trying to though, it's just the way he wrote it sounded like the rapes were justified.
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
And an employee of a company doesn't represent that company, right?
Sorry, but that employee would most likely get fired, just like those two American soldiers will most likely be charged in military court if found guilty and be dishonorably discharged. It's the in the best interest of the U.S. to see this through, as South Korea is a relatively valuable ally.
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
And an employee of a company doesn't represent that company, right?
Sorry, but that employee would most likely get fired, just like those two American soldiers will most likely be charged in military court if found guilty and be dishonorably discharged. It's the in the best interest of the U.S. to see this through, as South Korea is a relatively valuable ally.
Thats the point though. I feel like the anger is focused on the fact that these people get away with crimes because civilian cops cant charge them, if this is true then it's like how child molesters are protected by the church. No rational person would claim that US soldiers and priests are more prone to rape but rather frustration comes from how the governing institutions actively subvert justice.
This thread should be closed. It is only accomplishing stirring up baseless anti-American sentiment. There may be reasons to dislike America, but this particular incident isn't one of them. It generates no discussion other than hating America.
Okay I read the first four or so pages, and I think most of you guys don't know why.
It's not *just* the fact that two GIs did something terrible. It's the fact that they're not going to get punished for it. Most of the anti american sentiment comes from the fact that GIs go around breaking rules like it's nothing and they get away with it because the Korean law enforcement can't do anything about it.
In fact, from what I know, the two GIs who ran over two school girls with a vehicle weren't even punished they were just restationed (oh apparently, they ran them over twice, from what I remember from the incident).
That is why there's anti american sentiments. The fact that these GIs will likely get away with it because Korean law enforcement wont be able to get them but America will likely cover it up.
You said Korean law enforcement can't do anything about GIs
The Korean judicial system does have primary jurisdiction in the vast majority of criminal cases involving USFK personnel. In 2001, for example, 82% of all offenses committed by USFK personnel in Korea were subject to Korean jurisdiction.
Compare that with Korean military, whose soldiers are 100% exempt from civil courts, in Korea and in any other country they are stationed.
Additionally, in that website it actually lays out the facts of the case you specifically mentioned: the two soldiers were charged with criminal negligence, which is the most they could prove in two trials. Public apologies came from every level of the chain of command, including the president. Perhaps this still isn't justice to you, but it is the arrangement the South Korean government has agreed on.
In the end, none of this excuses any rape. However, you should still refrain from posting hearsay. This is only my second post because I would rather just lurk than flame people over nothing. People respect you and I'd hate for them to just accept your post as truth.
The incidents are very unfortunate, but sadly there is very little detail released so we have no idea what happened. Are they forcible violent rapes or statutory rapes? We don't know if the girls were low teens or more like 17 and I also don't happen to know what the age of consent is in that country. Obviously a crime is a crime but it could be the difference between a guy in his low 20's getting into trouble for fooling around with a 17 year old, or it could be a much worse violent, forcible rape.
As someone pointed out, regardless of whether the accused are guilty or not it will bring a lot of heat down on the military stationed there.
On October 09 2011 05:30 Bleak wrote: Wow, there are still 50.000 soldiers in Japan. I guess once US enters somewhere they don't ever go back.
If it was any other country they would have simply claimed all of the Japanese territory for themselves and they would have been well within their rights to do so, so please stop trying to make the United States sound bad. As for the present, it is my understanding that most Japanese support the United States military presence and Japan pays for the support of that military presence. Maybe it is cheaper than if they had to expand their own military for their own defense?
Having said that, as a United States citizen I want to bring all of our troops and military home from Europe, the middle east and Asia. I only support politicians who share in that goal. I would love it if we defended ourselves only, left nato and our other so-called "strategic" alliances which cost us a fortune, and let other sovereign nations take care of themselves without interference from us.
On October 09 2011 05:29 Emporio wrote: Do soldiers rape more often than the average person or is it just that Hess cases are way more publicized? Because I feel like every place soldiers are stationed for extended periods of time, you hear about someone raping a local. And I know that this doesn't apply to every soldier, or even rhe majority of them and there is probably a strong attraction of military careers to people who maybe have social problems.
I think these cases just get reported more, and the people who want the military presence removed use the opportunity to build up extra negative sentiment.
This is from wikipedia regarding the American forces stationed in Okinawa and Japan: On February 12th, 2008 the National Police Agency (of Japan) or NPA, released its annual criminal statistics that included activity within the Okinawan prefecture. These findings held American soldiers responsible for 53 crimes per 10,000 U.S. male servicemen, while Okinawan males held a crime rate of 366 crimes per 10,000. The per capita crime rate of U.S. servicemen in Okinawa was found to be 14 percent of that of the Okinawan males.
Percentage of crime out of 1000 people
National crime rate 0.30%
North and South Koreans 1.94% The Chinese 1.57% Okinawa people (excluding American soldiers) 0.30% Brazilians 0.52% American soldiers in Okinawa 0.14% [21]
Now that is for crimes in general and not rape specifically but it does indicate that American troops are less likely to commit crimes in general compared to the general population in that country. I think it is just natural for people in any country to become especially angry when foreigners commit crimes (especially heinous ones). After all... you are supposed to act your best when a guest in someone's home.
It's a shame, just goes to show that one man's actions can very well lead to the consequence of an entire group of people.
It's sad to think that something like this could disrupt eSports...
You'd think these soldiers would have more etiquette, I really don't think they would appreciate a few Korean soldiers coming over to the United States and raping a teenager.
I usually try to stay out of stuff like this, mainly because I try not to pay attention to the news at all, too much focus on negativity, but this stuff just disgusts me...
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
And an employee of a company doesn't represent that company, right?
Sorry, but that employee would most likely get fired, just like those two American soldiers will most likely be charged in military court if found guilty and be dishonorably discharged. It's the in the best interest of the U.S. to see this through, as South Korea is a relatively valuable ally.
I never said anything that contradicts what you just said. "Sorry."
What is it with the Military. My Japanese friend tells me stories of American soldiers doing the same thing there. I really hope this doesn't influence how Koreans see Americans in general. Someone needs to do something about this. This conduct is not becoming of the fine men and women of Americas armed forces. My condolences go out to the girls and the families of the girls that had the misfortune of this happening to them.
EPT![[image loading]](http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2008/02/xkcdwrongoninternet.jpg)
