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Country bashing will result in bans from 00:20 KST onward. |
On October 09 2011 10:45 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 10:41 domovoi wrote:On October 09 2011 10:37 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:
This story illustrates the obvious and age old problems that military presence in foreign countries causes in those societies (as well as the colonizing society, in terms of self-image), which is by no means an exclusively American phenomenon.
To say that pointing this out amounts to `America bashing` is to imply that American culture, as well as its image in the world, is predicated entirely on military dominance and the exercise of hard power, which i am sure many Americans would resent. Oh please, there is nothing special about this story except for the fact that it happened to be American GI's. Are you going to tell me a Korean raping another Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of letting people go out at night? Would you say a foreign tourist raping a Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of allowing tourists? Immigrants? Do you have any evidence at all that American GI's rape foreigners at a higher rate than one would expect? It's disheartening to see a tragedy like this get turned into an opportunity for people to display their gross biases. Whether or not American GIs have a higher incident of rape than Korean civilians is not the point. Why do you insist upon bringing it up?
Why do you insist on bringing Japan up? It's a logical point in an argument.
On October 09 2011 10:41 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote:
People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing. Why? I think he has an opinion he'd like to share.Why the Red-Herring? It's relevant.Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people? Because it is relevant, being that there is currently no study in place to prove that soldiers commit rape more often.It's completely missing the point. Your point, which is not what I have seen as being a general consensus.And tribalism wut? He's referring to how our discussion turned into a discussion of foreign policy, with two clearly defined side throwing rage at each other...that would probably be you and I.
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On October 09 2011 10:37 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 06:02 deadlywaffle wrote:On October 09 2011 05:59 semantics wrote:On October 09 2011 05:55 Chewbacca. wrote:
"Absolutely Inexcusable"
"Makes me sad to be an American"
"Hang them"
"Chemical Castration sounds good"
You people are crazy, you don't even know if they did anything. They were ACCUSED, that doesn't mean they actually did anything. It's like 90% of the people in this thread just completely skipped over those key words. Looking into it a little bit at least 1 rape would be under forceful rape, ages 18 woman and 21 solider making chemical castration not valid. But in general something like that is either the woman was raped or not raped, if raped was raped by someone looking foreign or a new recruit ir would be wearing his fatigues which would point to the US, and the US military would limit it to people who were off base during the incident and turn that person over for questioning. The problem with the op is that it doesn't have the 2 separate stories in good detail. Which basically led to this thread becoming another bash america and their military thread. Until those soldiers are PROVEN guilty, I would hope to see team liquid members be a little more open minded. But that ain't happening since it seems the only thing that they learned in school was how to mindlessly bash america. I am sorry, but i must reiterate this; This story illustrates the obvious and age old problems that military presence in foreign countries causes in those societies (as well as the colonizing society, in terms of self-image), which is by no means an exclusively American phenomenon. To say that pointing this out amounts to `America bashing` is to imply that American culture, as well as its image in the world, is predicated entirely on military dominance and the exercise of hard power, which i am sure many Americans would resent.
Is this problem really caused by our presence in Korea, though? Are these soldiers being driven to rape because they are serving a prolonged military service, or are they just sick human beings? If it's the latter, they would just be here in America, raping American girls instead. I can understand the protests if it is evidenced that they were driven to deviant behavior by the military, but really, there are millions of soldiers in foreign countries who aren't raping young girls. Many are probably helping people, maybe saving a girl from being assaulted instead, but we'll never hear about those stories because they're not sensationalist enough.
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Rofl. How did race get involved into this?
By the way, the article never said the girls were Korean. And they only said the 2 soldiers were American, implying that they are U.S soldiers.
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On October 09 2011 10:43 domovoi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 10:41 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote:
People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing. Why? Why the Red-Herring? Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people? It's completely missing the point. And tribalism wut? It's not an obsession, it's looking at this situation rationally. If the perpetrators were Koreans, it would be a non-story. If they were immigrants, it would be more of a story but not much of one. If it were tourists, same. Logically, why should the fact that they were American GI's change our emotional perspective about these rapes? It's because they trigger age-old tribalistic biases (hundreds of thousands of years of human warfare have created an instinctual bias against foreign servicemen). And I wish we would take more effort to get past that.
domovoi, you make it seem like it is perfectly normal to have military bases of a foreign power in your country with tens of thousands of military men - as normal as immigrants and tourists? So if that is so normal don't you find it odd that China, Holland, Liechtenstein all don't want to have a miltiary base of their own in the US?
That's the shocking thing. You find military presence all around the world as natural as blue skies. It shows that you don't think about it and have no sensitivity for the issue.
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Fuckwad G.I.s' and their presence in both Korea and Japan make me very hesitant on visiting those countries for any period of time (learning both languages so of course I want to fulfill it by making those countries travel destinations for me) because with shit like this, I have no idea how I will be treated. I supposed if I have language competency unlike most of the soldiers over there. I wouldn't blame them for treating me poorly though because of shit like this. :/
Edit: Not exclusively this ofc. But soldiers abroad tend to have bad feelings associated with them because of more minor put offs, but it all adds up and ofc this doesn't help.
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On October 09 2011 10:45 Consolidate wrote:
Whether or not American GIs have a higher incident of rape than Korean civilians is not the point.
Why do you insist upon bringing it up?
I know it's not the point, and that's the problem. It should be the point. I could understand anger if American GI's have a high tendency to rape Koreans, as that would be a real problem with their presence and would probably mean the American military needs to work a lot harder on discipline. But people are not reacting at any rational inquiry as to whether or not their presence is truly a problem. People are irrationally reacting to deeply ingrained/evolved emotional biases about foreigners, especially foreign armies. And that is a shame.
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On October 09 2011 10:47 PraetorialGamer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 10:45 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 10:41 domovoi wrote:On October 09 2011 10:37 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:
This story illustrates the obvious and age old problems that military presence in foreign countries causes in those societies (as well as the colonizing society, in terms of self-image), which is by no means an exclusively American phenomenon.
To say that pointing this out amounts to `America bashing` is to imply that American culture, as well as its image in the world, is predicated entirely on military dominance and the exercise of hard power, which i am sure many Americans would resent. Oh please, there is nothing special about this story except for the fact that it happened to be American GI's. Are you going to tell me a Korean raping another Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of letting people go out at night? Would you say a foreign tourist raping a Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of allowing tourists? Immigrants? Do you have any evidence at all that American GI's rape foreigners at a higher rate than one would expect? It's disheartening to see a tragedy like this get turned into an opportunity for people to display their gross biases. Whether or not American GIs have a higher incident of rape than Korean civilians is not the point. Why do you insist upon bringing it up? Why do you insist on bringing Japan up? It's a logical point in an argument. Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 10:41 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote:
People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing. Why? I think he has an opinion he'd like to share.Why the Red-Herring? It's relevant.Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people? Because it is relevant, being that there is currently no study in place to prove that soldiers commit rape more often.It's completely missing the point. Your point, which is not what I have seen as being a general consensus.And tribalism wut? He's referring to how our discussion turned into a discussion of foreign policy, with two clearly defined side throwing rage at each other...that would probably be you and I.
The Korean public outrage has nothing to do with the fact that American soldiers are statistically more likely to rape than Koreans.
Therefore it is irrelevant from the discussion.
The throw-out of the word 'tribalism' is also strange because BOTH OF US are arguing from the standpoint of the United States.
You give him too much credit, even when speaking on his behalf. Oh wait, that explains it doesn't it?
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On October 09 2011 10:50 psheldr wrote:domovoi, you make it seem like it is perfectly normal to have military bases of a foreign power in your country with tens of thousands of military men - as normal as immigrants and tourists? So if that is so normal don't you find it odd that China, Holland, Liechtenstein all don't want to have a miltiary base of their own in the US? That's the shocking thing. You find military presence all around the world as natural as blue skies. It shows that you don't think about it and have no sensitivity for the issue. Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 10:43 domovoi wrote:On October 09 2011 10:41 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote:
People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing. Why? Why the Red-Herring? Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people? It's completely missing the point. And tribalism wut? It's not an obsession, it's looking at this situation rationally. If the perpetrators were Koreans, it would be a non-story. If they were immigrants, it would be more of a story but not much of one. If it were tourists, same. Logically, why should the fact that they were American GI's change our emotional perspective about these rapes? It's because they trigger age-old tribalistic biases (hundreds of thousands of years of human warfare have created an instinctual bias against foreign servicemen). And I wish we would take more effort to get past that.
I do believe that most people who argue that it is not unusual to have something like this happen realize that they are incapable of changing the system, and therefore choose to support a position within those restrictions that they consider to be morally sound. Acceptance is not ignorance.
I don't like the US having bases all over the world, but I'm a freshman, what can I do other than write my opinion?
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Emotions aside, how do both countries law systems handle this sort of crime? Does Korea detain them since the rape (I'm assuming) was committed on Korean soil? Or does the U.S. Military detain them since they basically "own" the soldiers since they are under their command.
And the reason why everyone is pointing out the statistics of which countries soldiers rape more frequently is just to argue that this story proves nothing about American Military and its entirety. As horrible as it is, this is just another story being torn apart by a media frenzy since the circumstances are so uncommon.
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On October 09 2011 10:51 domovoi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 10:45 Consolidate wrote:
Whether or not American GIs have a higher incident of rape than Korean civilians is not the point.
Why do you insist upon bringing it up? I know it's not the point, and that's the problem. It should be the point. I could understand anger if American GI's have a high tendency to rape Koreans, as that would be a real problem with their presence and would probably mean the American military needs to work a lot harder on discipline. But people are not reacting at any rational inquiry as to whether or not their presence is truly a problem. People are irrationally reacting to deeply ingrained/evolved emotional biases about foreigners, especially foreign armies. And that is a shame.
We're not talking about the legitimacy of cultural stereotypes.
We're talking about outrage stemming from the symbolic implications of American soldiers raping Korean girls on Korean soil.
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On October 09 2011 10:50 psheldr wrote:
domovoi, you make it seem like it is perfectly normal to have military bases of a foreign power in your country with tens of thousands of military men - as normal as immigrants and tourists? So if that is so normal don't you find it odd that China, Holland, Liechtenstein all don't want to have a miltiary base of their own in the US?
That's the shocking thing. You find military presence all around the world as natural as blue skies. It shows that you don't think about it and have no sensitivity for the issue.
We can have a calm, rational discussion about the efficacy of military presence in Korea (though I would bet the Korean government has no desire to see the American military leave). We can even rationally discuss whether their presence increases rape incidence.
But we are not doing that. All we are doing is exposing biases as a reaction to what appears to be isolated incidents. And only because of the nature of the perpetrators. It's irrational.
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I'm kind of amazed at the explosion of anger from some people. Rape is a horrible crime, no doubt.. but things like this happen every day. Some people just have no sense of morality or value.
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Wonder how people would've reacted if the article looked like this : "two people accused of raping some other people." No one would be angry.
No wait, that's not good enough. The media adds extra details so they can laugh at us argue about something completely off topic.
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On October 09 2011 10:55 Consolidate wrote:
We're not talking about the legitimacy of cultural stereotypes.
Nor am I.
We're talking about outrage stemming from the symbolic implications of American soldiers raping Korean girls on Korean soil.
Yes, so am I. The very fact it's somehow symbolic despite the lack of any evidence that such incidents are more commonplace than otherwise just goes to show how deep these human biases persist. In a more rational world, it wouldn't be symbolic. There wouldn't be outrage, unless such incidents were systemic. Objective justice would be served, much like any other incident of rape in Korea.
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On October 09 2011 10:53 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 10:47 PraetorialGamer wrote:On October 09 2011 10:45 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 10:41 domovoi wrote:On October 09 2011 10:37 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:
This story illustrates the obvious and age old problems that military presence in foreign countries causes in those societies (as well as the colonizing society, in terms of self-image), which is by no means an exclusively American phenomenon.
To say that pointing this out amounts to `America bashing` is to imply that American culture, as well as its image in the world, is predicated entirely on military dominance and the exercise of hard power, which i am sure many Americans would resent. Oh please, there is nothing special about this story except for the fact that it happened to be American GI's. Are you going to tell me a Korean raping another Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of letting people go out at night? Would you say a foreign tourist raping a Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of allowing tourists? Immigrants? Do you have any evidence at all that American GI's rape foreigners at a higher rate than one would expect? It's disheartening to see a tragedy like this get turned into an opportunity for people to display their gross biases. Whether or not American GIs have a higher incident of rape than Korean civilians is not the point. Why do you insist upon bringing it up? Why do you insist on bringing Japan up? It's a logical point in an argument. On October 09 2011 10:41 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote:
People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing. Why? I think he has an opinion he'd like to share.Why the Red-Herring? It's relevant.Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people? Because it is relevant, being that there is currently no study in place to prove that soldiers commit rape more often.It's completely missing the point. Your point, which is not what I have seen as being a general consensus.And tribalism wut? He's referring to how our discussion turned into a discussion of foreign policy, with two clearly defined side throwing rage at each other...that would probably be you and I. The Korean public outrage has nothing to do with the fact that American soldiers are statistically more likely to rape than Koreans. Therefore it is irrelevant from the discussion. The throw-out of the word 'tribalism' is also strange because BOTH OF US are arguing from the standpoint of the United States. You give him too much credit, even when speaking on his behalf. Oh wait, that explains it doesn't it?
Contrary to what you appear to be suggesting, there are some people who find that this is not unusual at all. I give him credit for trying to calm this down.
The Korean public outrage is a factor, but the incident itself could potentially suggest greater issues of US foreign policy, which he and I have attempted to address. I might point out that many people brought up the point that the US has bases all over the world and controls many countries, but these people were against such a position. I(and he) were referring to them, not to you.
Tribalism is a political term describing aggression with little restraint, though obviously without the violent context that the word alone implies.
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On October 09 2011 10:57 legendre20 wrote:
I'm kind of amazed at the explosion of anger from some people. Rape is a horrible crime, no doubt.. but things like this happen every day. Some people just have no sense of morality or value.
The Korean reaction is perfectly understandable.
If Americans were not stationed in Korea, these particular rapes would not have occurred. Same pertains to similar incidents in Japan.
On October 09 2011 10:59 PraetorialGamer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 10:53 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 10:47 PraetorialGamer wrote:On October 09 2011 10:45 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 10:41 domovoi wrote:On October 09 2011 10:37 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:
This story illustrates the obvious and age old problems that military presence in foreign countries causes in those societies (as well as the colonizing society, in terms of self-image), which is by no means an exclusively American phenomenon.
To say that pointing this out amounts to `America bashing` is to imply that American culture, as well as its image in the world, is predicated entirely on military dominance and the exercise of hard power, which i am sure many Americans would resent. Oh please, there is nothing special about this story except for the fact that it happened to be American GI's. Are you going to tell me a Korean raping another Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of letting people go out at night? Would you say a foreign tourist raping a Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of allowing tourists? Immigrants? Do you have any evidence at all that American GI's rape foreigners at a higher rate than one would expect? It's disheartening to see a tragedy like this get turned into an opportunity for people to display their gross biases. Whether or not American GIs have a higher incident of rape than Korean civilians is not the point. Why do you insist upon bringing it up? Why do you insist on bringing Japan up? It's a logical point in an argument. On October 09 2011 10:41 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote:
People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing. Why? I think he has an opinion he'd like to share.Why the Red-Herring? It's relevant.Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people? Because it is relevant, being that there is currently no study in place to prove that soldiers commit rape more often.It's completely missing the point. Your point, which is not what I have seen as being a general consensus.And tribalism wut? He's referring to how our discussion turned into a discussion of foreign policy, with two clearly defined side throwing rage at each other...that would probably be you and I. The Korean public outrage has nothing to do with the fact that American soldiers are statistically more likely to rape than Koreans. Therefore it is irrelevant from the discussion. The throw-out of the word 'tribalism' is also strange because BOTH OF US are arguing from the standpoint of the United States. You give him too much credit, even when speaking on his behalf. Oh wait, that explains it doesn't it? Contrary to what you appear to be suggesting, there are some people who find that this is not unusual at all. I give him credit for trying to calm this down. The Korean public outrage is a factor, but the incident itself could potentially suggest greater issues of US foreign policy, which he and I have attempted to address. I might point out that many people brought up the point that the US has bases all over the world and controls many countries, but these people were against such a position. I(and he) were referring to them, not to you. Tribalism is a political term describing aggression with little restraint, though obviously without the violent context that the word alone implies.
What?
What countries does the United States "control" through its military presence, barring the obvious?
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On October 09 2011 10:54 PraetorialGamer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 10:50 psheldr wrote:domovoi, you make it seem like it is perfectly normal to have military bases of a foreign power in your country with tens of thousands of military men - as normal as immigrants and tourists? So if that is so normal don't you find it odd that China, Holland, Liechtenstein all don't want to have a miltiary base of their own in the US? That's the shocking thing. You find military presence all around the world as natural as blue skies. It shows that you don't think about it and have no sensitivity for the issue. On October 09 2011 10:43 domovoi wrote:On October 09 2011 10:41 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote:
People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing. Why? Why the Red-Herring? Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people? It's completely missing the point. And tribalism wut? It's not an obsession, it's looking at this situation rationally. If the perpetrators were Koreans, it would be a non-story. If they were immigrants, it would be more of a story but not much of one. If it were tourists, same. Logically, why should the fact that they were American GI's change our emotional perspective about these rapes? It's because they trigger age-old tribalistic biases (hundreds of thousands of years of human warfare have created an instinctual bias against foreign servicemen). And I wish we would take more effort to get past that. I do believe that most people who argue that it is not unusual to have something like this happen realize that they are incapable of changing the system, and therefore choose to support a position within those restrictions that they consider to be morally sound. Acceptance is not ignorance. I don't like the US having bases all over the world, but I'm a freshman, what can I do other than write my opinion?
Stop having a meta-discussion about the value of your own opinions with regard to affecting real change in the world.
This is an internet forum. No one is going to mistake your comments for think-tank policy.
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On October 09 2011 10:41 domovoi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 10:37 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:
This story illustrates the obvious and age old problems that military presence in foreign countries causes in those societies (as well as the colonizing society, in terms of self-image), which is by no means an exclusively American phenomenon.
To say that pointing this out amounts to `America bashing` is to imply that American culture, as well as its image in the world, is predicated entirely on military dominance and the exercise of hard power, which i am sure many Americans would resent. Oh please, there is nothing special about this story except for the fact that it happened to be American GI's. Are you going to tell me a Korean raping another Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of letting people go out at night? Would you say a foreign tourist raping a Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of allowing tourists? Immigrants? Do you have any evidence at all that American GI's rape foreigners at a higher rate than one would expect? It's disheartening to see a tragedy like this get turned into an opportunity for people to display their gross biases.
I am sorry, I`m afraid my point was lost. Point being, that the military presence is cause for anti-American sentiment, which is socially destabilizing, rather than that `they raped because they were American soldiers`.
However, i will say that these soldiers are in the unenviable position of being stationed in a foreign country with no real job to do, far from family, friends, and girlfriends, and exist in a culture (Military, not Korean) where violence is accepted as a part of their function.
This inherent cognitive dissonance, along with a healthy (sic.) dose of liquor and sexual frustration, is a dangerous mix of psychological influences, and should not be ignored.
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On October 09 2011 11:01 Elegy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 10:57 legendre20 wrote:
I'm kind of amazed at the explosion of anger from some people. Rape is a horrible crime, no doubt.. but things like this happen every day. Some people just have no sense of morality or value. The Korean reaction is perfectly understandable. If Americans were not stationed in Korea, these particular rapes would not have occurred. Same pertains to similar incidents in Japan. Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 10:59 PraetorialGamer wrote:On October 09 2011 10:53 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 10:47 PraetorialGamer wrote:On October 09 2011 10:45 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 10:41 domovoi wrote:On October 09 2011 10:37 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:
This story illustrates the obvious and age old problems that military presence in foreign countries causes in those societies (as well as the colonizing society, in terms of self-image), which is by no means an exclusively American phenomenon.
To say that pointing this out amounts to `America bashing` is to imply that American culture, as well as its image in the world, is predicated entirely on military dominance and the exercise of hard power, which i am sure many Americans would resent. Oh please, there is nothing special about this story except for the fact that it happened to be American GI's. Are you going to tell me a Korean raping another Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of letting people go out at night? Would you say a foreign tourist raping a Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of allowing tourists? Immigrants? Do you have any evidence at all that American GI's rape foreigners at a higher rate than one would expect? It's disheartening to see a tragedy like this get turned into an opportunity for people to display their gross biases. Whether or not American GIs have a higher incident of rape than Korean civilians is not the point. Why do you insist upon bringing it up? Why do you insist on bringing Japan up? It's a logical point in an argument. On October 09 2011 10:41 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote:
People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing. Why? I think he has an opinion he'd like to share.Why the Red-Herring? It's relevant.Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people? Because it is relevant, being that there is currently no study in place to prove that soldiers commit rape more often.It's completely missing the point. Your point, which is not what I have seen as being a general consensus.And tribalism wut? He's referring to how our discussion turned into a discussion of foreign policy, with two clearly defined side throwing rage at each other...that would probably be you and I. The Korean public outrage has nothing to do with the fact that American soldiers are statistically more likely to rape than Koreans. Therefore it is irrelevant from the discussion. The throw-out of the word 'tribalism' is also strange because BOTH OF US are arguing from the standpoint of the United States. You give him too much credit, even when speaking on his behalf. Oh wait, that explains it doesn't it? Contrary to what you appear to be suggesting, there are some people who find that this is not unusual at all. I give him credit for trying to calm this down. The Korean public outrage is a factor, but the incident itself could potentially suggest greater issues of US foreign policy, which he and I have attempted to address. I might point out that many people brought up the point that the US has bases all over the world and controls many countries, but these people were against such a position. I(and he) were referring to them, not to you. Tribalism is a political term describing aggression with little restraint, though obviously without the violent context that the word alone implies. What? What countries does the United States "control" through its military presence, barring the obvious?
Consolidate made a solid point that Korea and Japan must kowtow to the US because of its military presence. Not what I personally would have described it, but...
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On October 09 2011 10:58 domovoi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 10:55 Consolidate wrote:
We're not talking about the legitimacy of cultural stereotypes. Nor am I. Show nested quote +We're talking about outrage stemming from the symbolic implications of American soldiers raping Korean girls on Korean soil. Yes, so am I. The very fact it's somehow symbolic despite the lack of any evidence that such incidents are more commonplace than otherwise just goes to show how deep these human biases persist. In a more rational world, it wouldn't be symbolic. There wouldn't be outrage, unless such incidents were systemic. Objective justice would be served, much like any other incident of rape in Korea.
Whether or not is is commonplace is not the issue.
Here's an extreme example of your curious logic:
When 9/11 happened, were Americans outraged because Saudi Arabian terrorist attacks were commonplace?
Or were they outraged simply because it happened?
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EPT
