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Country bashing will result in bans from 00:20 KST onward. |
On October 09 2011 10:01 PraetorialGamer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 09:59 JingleHell wrote:On October 09 2011 09:57 PraetorialGamer wrote:On October 09 2011 09:55 JingleHell wrote:On October 09 2011 09:52 Skullflower wrote:On October 09 2011 06:03 rockerman101 wrote:
god its horrible that we have soldiers doing this shit This happens in the US on our military bases too and the sad part is it usually gets swept under the rug with little more than a slap on the wrist for the offender. Funny, while I was getting my medical discharge, we had a guy going through a dishonorable discharge, confined to quarters, registered as a sex offender, losing his benefits, getting his pay docked. And that was them going light on him. JingleHell, his argument states that your medical discharge from crohn's and my brother's having been a district commander in Seoul are anecdotes that he cannot confirm. That being said, he is also making statements of multiple incidences that also could be called such. Actually, mines very confirmable, I just happen to be too lazy to scan my DD214 and remove all my personal info. Although really, until the guys involved are found guilty, their rape is anecdotal too, so why is everyone so ready to believe that? As is mine, being that my brother's being in command is well documented, and accessible if I jsut gave a name. I wouldn't call the rapes "anecdotal", but I would call them "comparatively insignificant".
You military brats should get a room already.
You just can't seem to grasp the concept of 'looking after your own'.
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On October 09 2011 10:01 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 09:51 PraetorialGamer wrote:On October 09 2011 09:47 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 09:42 Klipsys wrote:On October 09 2011 09:40 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 09:38 PraetorialGamer wrote:On October 09 2011 09:29 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 09:23 Klipsys wrote:On October 09 2011 09:01 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 08:59 Klipsys wrote:
[quote]
Okay so,
Men rape women
Soldiers rape women
American soldiers rape Asian women
American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea. It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees. What the hell are they teaching you in school? Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world? You fucking tell me. Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there? Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly. I have no nationalistic bias. My brother, as I have stated, was one of the District Commanders of the Military Police in Seoul. He handled cases such as this and I can tell you, these incidences are rare, and the perpetrators do not go unpunished by the military even if they are released, as long as there is sufficient evidence to confirm their guilt(which there is, in this case). I'm one hundred percent positive that even your anecdotal evidence will confirm that the 'punishments' are a joke and magnitudes less severe than those dealt to civilians. lol, Jesus Christ. Isn't there a protest in NYC you should be heading to? I am the one percent. I'm sorry you immediately assume than anyone who calls your out on your bullshit is a bleeding-heart liberal. I'm also probably more conservative and pro-hegemony than you are. I'm just intellectually honest about my arguments. I would not go so far as to call another's opinion "bullshit" regardless of difference. Nor would I criticize you in such a manner. The two ends of the spectrum are critical of US foreign policy and for it. I ascribe to to the former, yet I feel as though this situation does not warrant the attention that it has received here. It blows my mind to see critical matters of foreign policy dismissed as though it were tabloid trash. The US risks losing both Korean and Japan to this sort bullshit, if they're not careful. Asian public sentiment is a goddamn force of nature. Like I said before: THE PRIME MINSTER OF JAPAN resigned simply because he could not remove the Okinawa base. It's simply not natural for the United States to have such an intrusive presence in counties like SK and Japan. That it is able to maintain such a presence is a testament its hard power ALONE. These teenagers can't see the significance of the Korean public outrage, because they're narrow-minded sophomores who evaluate everything from their pedestrian point of view. 'Rape is Rape, lol, it's not statistically significant"
You know, Japan has been going through its Prime Ministers at a fairly rapid rate for the past tow years...
I'm genuinely surprised that you insist that anyone who does not evaluate this from your standpoint is mentally hanidcapped.
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On October 09 2011 10:03 Warlock40 wrote:Good news. Hang em high!
If they're guilty, I got no problem with it. I was pointing this out mostly because everybody keeps saying it will get swept under the rug and shit. Not likely. And for that matter, with ole J Thurman in charge there, it definitely won't disappear. Guy has a major stick up his ass. And a pacemaker. Back when I was on the security detail for his Assistant Division Commander - Support, the Division Sergeant Major would go stand by the microwave in the dining facility before he walked past it so nobody would turn it on.
On October 09 2011 10:03 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 10:01 PraetorialGamer wrote:On October 09 2011 09:59 JingleHell wrote:On October 09 2011 09:57 PraetorialGamer wrote:On October 09 2011 09:55 JingleHell wrote:On October 09 2011 09:52 Skullflower wrote:On October 09 2011 06:03 rockerman101 wrote:
god its horrible that we have soldiers doing this shit This happens in the US on our military bases too and the sad part is it usually gets swept under the rug with little more than a slap on the wrist for the offender. Funny, while I was getting my medical discharge, we had a guy going through a dishonorable discharge, confined to quarters, registered as a sex offender, losing his benefits, getting his pay docked. And that was them going light on him. JingleHell, his argument states that your medical discharge from crohn's and my brother's having been a district commander in Seoul are anecdotes that he cannot confirm. That being said, he is also making statements of multiple incidences that also could be called such. Actually, mines very confirmable, I just happen to be too lazy to scan my DD214 and remove all my personal info. Although really, until the guys involved are found guilty, their rape is anecdotal too, so why is everyone so ready to believe that? As is mine, being that my brother's being in command is well documented, and accessible if I jsut gave a name. I wouldn't call the rapes "anecdotal", but I would call them "comparatively insignificant". You military brats should get a room already. You just can't seem to grasp the concept of 'looking after your own'.
Military brat is a kid that grew up with an Active Duty parent. Not a former soldier or sibling thereof.
And we do understand "Looking after your own". We just also know it doesn't happen above the platoon level, and a court martial offense is WAY above platoon level.
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I still am waiting for a list of all the rape cases and supposed cover ups, because I need proof that the military goes out of it's way to protect rapists.
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That's pretty harsh, wether it is true or not is still the question x.x
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On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote:
It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
waoh, defensive much...? its stupid to be angry about rape because....it hurts the image of the US abroad? really?
Btw, no-one has said `they raped her because they were American`; that was your assumption about public (TL) opinion.
I resent that, sir.
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On October 09 2011 10:04 PraetorialGamer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 10:01 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 09:51 PraetorialGamer wrote:On October 09 2011 09:47 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 09:42 Klipsys wrote:On October 09 2011 09:40 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 09:38 PraetorialGamer wrote:On October 09 2011 09:29 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 09:23 Klipsys wrote:On October 09 2011 09:01 Consolidate wrote:
[quote]
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school? Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world? You fucking tell me. Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there? Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly. I have no nationalistic bias. My brother, as I have stated, was one of the District Commanders of the Military Police in Seoul. He handled cases such as this and I can tell you, these incidences are rare, and the perpetrators do not go unpunished by the military even if they are released, as long as there is sufficient evidence to confirm their guilt(which there is, in this case). I'm one hundred percent positive that even your anecdotal evidence will confirm that the 'punishments' are a joke and magnitudes less severe than those dealt to civilians. lol, Jesus Christ. Isn't there a protest in NYC you should be heading to? I am the one percent. I'm sorry you immediately assume than anyone who calls your out on your bullshit is a bleeding-heart liberal. I'm also probably more conservative and pro-hegemony than you are. I'm just intellectually honest about my arguments. I would not go so far as to call another's opinion "bullshit" regardless of difference. Nor would I criticize you in such a manner. The two ends of the spectrum are critical of US foreign policy and for it. I ascribe to to the former, yet I feel as though this situation does not warrant the attention that it has received here. It blows my mind to see critical matters of foreign policy dismissed as though it were tabloid trash. The US risks losing both Korean and Japan to this sort bullshit, if they're not careful. Asian public sentiment is a goddamn force of nature. Like I said before: THE PRIME MINSTER OF JAPAN resigned simply because he could not remove the Okinawa base. It's simply not natural for the United States to have such an intrusive presence in counties like SK and Japan. That it is able to maintain such a presence is a testament its hard power ALONE. These teenagers can't see the significance of the Korean public outrage, because they're narrow-minded sophomores who evaluate everything from their pedestrian point of view. 'Rape is Rape, lol, it's not statistically significant" You know, Japan has been going through its Prime Ministers at a fairly rapid rate for the past tow years... I'm genuinely surprised that you insist that anyone who does not evaluate this from your standpoint is mentally hanidcapped.
"You know, Japan has been going through its Prime Ministers at a fairly rapid rate for the past tow years..."
Everyone says this pretending to know what they're talking about, but no one pays attention to the reasons why.
"...anyone who does not evaluate this from your standpoint is mentally handicapped."
I can't imagine being so crass. I'm pretty sure I used the phrase "cognitively-impaired."
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On October 09 2011 10:07 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote:
It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country. waoh, defensive much...? its stupid to be angry about rape because....it hurts the image of the US abroad? really? Btw, no-one has said `they raped her because they were American`; that was your assumption about public (TL) opinion. I resent that, sir.
Actually it has been said. Along with allegations that skin color amongst Americans was also relevant. The guy was promptly banned.
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On October 09 2011 10:06 JingleHell wrote:If they're guilty, I got no problem with it. I was pointing this out mostly because everybody keeps saying it will get swept under the rug and shit. Not likely. And for that matter, with ole J Thurman in charge there, it definitely won't disappear. Guy has a major stick up his ass. And a pacemaker. Back when I was on the security detail for his Assistant Division Commander - Support, the Division Sergeant Major would go stand by the microwave in the dining facility before he walked past it so nobody would turn it on. Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 10:03 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 10:01 PraetorialGamer wrote:On October 09 2011 09:59 JingleHell wrote:On October 09 2011 09:57 PraetorialGamer wrote:On October 09 2011 09:55 JingleHell wrote:On October 09 2011 09:52 Skullflower wrote:On October 09 2011 06:03 rockerman101 wrote:
god its horrible that we have soldiers doing this shit This happens in the US on our military bases too and the sad part is it usually gets swept under the rug with little more than a slap on the wrist for the offender. Funny, while I was getting my medical discharge, we had a guy going through a dishonorable discharge, confined to quarters, registered as a sex offender, losing his benefits, getting his pay docked. And that was them going light on him. JingleHell, his argument states that your medical discharge from crohn's and my brother's having been a district commander in Seoul are anecdotes that he cannot confirm. That being said, he is also making statements of multiple incidences that also could be called such. Actually, mines very confirmable, I just happen to be too lazy to scan my DD214 and remove all my personal info. Although really, until the guys involved are found guilty, their rape is anecdotal too, so why is everyone so ready to believe that? As is mine, being that my brother's being in command is well documented, and accessible if I jsut gave a name. I wouldn't call the rapes "anecdotal", but I would call them "comparatively insignificant". You military brats should get a room already. You just can't seem to grasp the concept of 'looking after your own'. Military brat is a kid that grew up with an Active Duty parent. Not a former soldier or sibling thereof. And we do understand "Looking after your own". We just also know it doesn't happen above the platoon level, and a court martial offense is WAY above platoon level.
"The 1995 Okinawa rape incident refers to a rape that took place on September 4, 1995, when three U.S. servicemen, U.S. Navy Seaman Marcus Gill and U.S. Marines Rodrico Harp and Kendrick Ledet, all from Camp Hansen on Okinawa, rented a van and kidnapped a 12-year-old Japanese girl. They beat her, duct-taped her eyes and mouth shut, and bound her hands. Gill and Harp then raped her, while Ledet claimed he only pretended to do so out of fear of Gill. "
Go on and guess if any of those savages were court-martialed.
Go on.
Guess.
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military brats
your bullshit
Please, give up this line of thinking before you ruin us all.
These teenagers can't see the significance...
because they're narrow-minded sophomores who evaluate everything from their pedestrian point of view.
I haven't been doing this, Consolidate. I'm simply saying, is it possible that this an issue that can only be resolved with further information and discussion, not one-side-versus-the-other-side.
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While what the two troops did is inexcusable, these are actions of individuals not the military. Out of 30,000 people there are bound to be a couple animals that ruin it for everyone else. After World War II ,to throw some light on the matter but not to condone the actions of young men in wars/post war countries, when the Nazi government fell and Berlin was occupied of the civilian population the number of rapes by troops was in the 10,000s if not 100,000s.
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All I see your argument doing is confirming my belief. You use Japan as evidence that change will come... but all they did was change PM's. The base is still there, just as it was. And whether something gets shook up in the SK political spectrum or not, the bases will also remain there.
You continue to make the allegation that the US military will do its best to impede justice and see that these 2 soldiers (assuming they're guilty) will get off lightly. If you're going to make this claim, citing an example or two alone is not even close to enough to show anything resembling a pattern.
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On October 09 2011 10:09 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 10:07 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote:
It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country. waoh, defensive much...? its stupid to be angry about rape because....it hurts the image of the US abroad? really? Btw, no-one has said `they raped her because they were American`; that was your assumption about public (TL) opinion. I resent that, sir. Actually it has been said. Along with allegations that skin color amongst Americans was also relevant. The guy was promptly banned.
that may be, but the post was early in the thread, before any such comments occurred.
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On October 09 2011 10:13 PraetorialGamer wrote:Show nested quote +because they're narrow-minded sophomores who evaluate everything from their pedestrian point of view. I haven't been doing this, Consolidate. I'm simply saying, is it possible that this an issue that can only be resolved with further information and discussion, not one-side-versus-the-other-side.
Don't hold my rhetorical flourish against me. I'm not talking about you.
This is an interesting issue upon which many interpretations can be made.
I'm just ridiculing those who dismissing this entire topic as an ordinary crime of trivial importance.
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On October 09 2011 10:12 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 10:06 JingleHell wrote:On October 09 2011 10:03 Warlock40 wrote:Good news. Hang em high! If they're guilty, I got no problem with it. I was pointing this out mostly because everybody keeps saying it will get swept under the rug and shit. Not likely. And for that matter, with ole J Thurman in charge there, it definitely won't disappear. Guy has a major stick up his ass. And a pacemaker. Back when I was on the security detail for his Assistant Division Commander - Support, the Division Sergeant Major would go stand by the microwave in the dining facility before he walked past it so nobody would turn it on. On October 09 2011 10:03 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 10:01 PraetorialGamer wrote:On October 09 2011 09:59 JingleHell wrote:On October 09 2011 09:57 PraetorialGamer wrote:On October 09 2011 09:55 JingleHell wrote:On October 09 2011 09:52 Skullflower wrote:On October 09 2011 06:03 rockerman101 wrote:
god its horrible that we have soldiers doing this shit This happens in the US on our military bases too and the sad part is it usually gets swept under the rug with little more than a slap on the wrist for the offender. Funny, while I was getting my medical discharge, we had a guy going through a dishonorable discharge, confined to quarters, registered as a sex offender, losing his benefits, getting his pay docked. And that was them going light on him. JingleHell, his argument states that your medical discharge from crohn's and my brother's having been a district commander in Seoul are anecdotes that he cannot confirm. That being said, he is also making statements of multiple incidences that also could be called such. Actually, mines very confirmable, I just happen to be too lazy to scan my DD214 and remove all my personal info. Although really, until the guys involved are found guilty, their rape is anecdotal too, so why is everyone so ready to believe that? As is mine, being that my brother's being in command is well documented, and accessible if I jsut gave a name. I wouldn't call the rapes "anecdotal", but I would call them "comparatively insignificant". You military brats should get a room already. You just can't seem to grasp the concept of 'looking after your own'. Military brat is a kid that grew up with an Active Duty parent. Not a former soldier or sibling thereof. And we do understand "Looking after your own". We just also know it doesn't happen above the platoon level, and a court martial offense is WAY above platoon level. "The 1995 Okinawa rape incident refers to a rape that took place on September 4, 1995, when three U.S. servicemen, U.S. Navy Seaman Marcus Gill and U.S. Marines Rodrico Harp and Kendrick Ledet, all from Camp Hansen on Okinawa, rented a van and kidnapped a 12-year-old Japanese girl. They beat her, duct-taped her eyes and mouth shut, and bound her hands. Gill and Harp then raped her, while Ledet claimed he only pretended to do so out of fear of Gill. " Go on and guess if any of those savages were court-martialed. Go on. Guess.
Nope, they handed them over to the Japanese government to play with instead. Problem being?
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On October 09 2011 09:53 PraetorialGamer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 09:43 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 09:40 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On October 09 2011 09:36 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 09:32 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On October 09 2011 09:29 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 09:23 Klipsys wrote:On October 09 2011 09:01 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 08:59 Klipsys wrote:On October 09 2011 08:45 Consolidate wrote:
[quote]
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women. Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry. Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea. It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees. What the hell are they teaching you in school? Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world? You fucking tell me. Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there? Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly. There are people saying they shouldn't be punished? Where? Putting the cart before the horse or can you see into the future? It's pretty clear that they won't be punished adequately if history is a guide. Let me try to get through to you: The same thing happened in Okinawa: The Michael Brown Okinawa attempted assault incident arose from an attempted indecent assault by U.S. Marine Corps Major Michael Brown on a Filipina bartender, V. N. (initials of victim), in Okinawa, Japan, on November 2, 2002. V.N. accused Brown of attempting to rape her and throwing her cell phone into a nearby river; Brown denied the rape charges. The victim later recanted her testimony, though prosecutors presented evidence that she had received a cash payment just before doing so. The case received extensive attention in the Japanese media, especially in Okinawa, and the crime sparked a public debate over the U.S. military presence in Japan, the privileges of extraterritoriality, as well as the fair trial practices of Japanese legal system and the Japanese police. The case involved the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan and the U.S.–Japan Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA). On July 8, 2004, after a 19-month trial, Brown was convicted by a Japanese court of attempted indecent assault and destruction of private property and received a one-year suspended prison sentence. As a result of this incident and others involving crimes committed by U.S. military personnel in Japan, both countries entered into negotiations aimed at modifying the SOFA in July 2003; ultimately, however, no changes were made to the agreement. In 2005, Brown was arrested and charged with kidnapping in the United States. He was demoted and involuntarily retired from the military in 2006 and at his trial in 2009 entered a Kennedy plea, receiving probation on the felony conviction. Does that sound like justice to you? Is this the part where I explain that a single incident doesn't prove, well, much of anything? Yesterday the Brewers won their game. I guess that means next year they'll win if they're in a similar situation. Do I think justice will be served? No, but that's only because the "justice" some people have called for is chemical castration and other ludicrous assessments. There are emotions and short of execution of these individuals, there will be upset people. I establish a pattern of behavior regarding the handling these types of events, and you dismiss them as 'single incidents'. Can you get more ridiculous? Your logical reasoning is flawed. Where is your pattern? I see two incidents that have not yet come to trial, and another in another country that currently has no military relation to the other except regional. I do dismiss them. Find a public study that shows numerous reports of behavior such as this in Korea that cannot be dismissed as "anecdotal", as you have dismissed arguments against your own.
Sorry PraetorialGamer i thought what you said up to now was very reasonable (miles above what came from Klipsys and ownyaah...). But this just makes me sick to the stomach. There have been many, many issues with US military presence in other countries (this is just the tip of the iceberg!).
For example when the Ramstein disaster occurred (just because i know the level here i will hedge by saying _of course the military base was not responsible for the Italian jet crashing/this horrible incident occurring_), however ambulances and medical staff from the surrounding clinics where at first not let on to the premise because they didn't have clearance.
Why are US nuclear bombs stationed in Germany? Why could the last foreign minister of Germany only highlight this issue and say how unhappy Germans are with it than actually do anything about it?
The list goes on... Surely with a bit of imagination you can think of many other reasons what can go wrong with having a military base full of privileged/bored men in a country.
So trying to pretend that this tip of the iceberg - these latest problems are really non existent, and before then everything was just fine as well, does not sit right with me.
So what is the issue here? The US government stations US soldiers around the world in military bases. The government does this by the authority given to it by the US citizens. Do Koreans, Japanese, Germans... have any democratic power over these bases? No. The only thing left is running against this brick wall, their own incompetent politicians, to put pressure on US foreign policy - which they have been trying for the last 60 years.
So i think we need to work together. Of course we should make our politicians fight for this issue. But US citizens have to at least *think* about this issue. Depending on how they decide they can chose to (or not) put pressure on _their_ representatives about this.
Everything else is just insulting.
I hope i could make myself clear.
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On October 09 2011 10:16 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 10:13 PraetorialGamer wrote:military brats your bullshit Please, give up this line of thinking before you ruin us all. These teenagers can't see the significance... because they're narrow-minded sophomores who evaluate everything from their pedestrian point of view. I haven't been doing this, Consolidate. I'm simply saying, is it possible that this an issue that can only be resolved with further information and discussion, not one-side-versus-the-other-side. Don't hold my rhetorical flourish against me. I'm not talking about you. This is an interesting issue upon which many interpretations can be made. I'm just ridiculing those who dismissing this entire topic as an ordinary crime of trivial importance.
I apologize for being a critic of your colurful rhetoric, which you rightly call so.
And indeed, can an interpretation of this not be that this IS an ordinary crime of trivial importance?
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On October 09 2011 10:18 PraetorialGamer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 10:16 Consolidate wrote:On October 09 2011 10:13 PraetorialGamer wrote:military brats your bullshit Please, give up this line of thinking before you ruin us all. These teenagers can't see the significance... because they're narrow-minded sophomores who evaluate everything from their pedestrian point of view. I haven't been doing this, Consolidate. I'm simply saying, is it possible that this an issue that can only be resolved with further information and discussion, not one-side-versus-the-other-side. Don't hold my rhetorical flourish against me. I'm not talking about you. This is an interesting issue upon which many interpretations can be made. I'm just ridiculing those who dismissing this entire topic as an ordinary crime of trivial importance. I apologize for being a critic of your colurful rhetoric, which you rightly call so. And indeed, can an interpretation of this not be that this IS an ordinary crime of trivial importance?
No, as soon as it turns into an opportunity to attack the US Military, it's not a crime that happens almost daily in every country in the world anymore. It promptly becomes an entirely different crime.
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On October 09 2011 10:14 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
All I see your argument doing is confirming my belief. You use Japan as evidence that change will come... but all they did was change PM's. The base is still there, just as it was. And whether something gets shook up in the SK political spectrum or not, the bases will also remain there.
You continue to make the allegation that the US military will do its best to impede justice and see that these 2 soldiers (assuming they're guilty) will get off lightly. If you're going to make this claim, citing an example or two alone is not even close to enough to show anything resembling a pattern.
Lets see you cite a few examples to the contrary?
Because we obviously disagree with the nature of status-quo 'justice within the military'.
And don't think for a moment that anyone actually believes your pretending to consider Yukio Hatoyama as evidence of 'the situation not changing'.
Don't confuse the argument.
I was arguing against people claiming that this was a trivial incident which would have no wide-ranging consequences beyond itself.
Ousting the PM of the world's second largest economy is not a trivial event.
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The big problem is that we have a base in South Korea.
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EPT
