On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
You're arguing that no culture can be condemned morally by any other.
That is not good logic.
On the opposite, it's very logical.
Judging a culture with the intellectual tools of another culture will lead you to say that what is similar to your culture is good and what is different is bad.
When I hear fundamentalist Islamist say that our culture is depraved and perverted because women dress like whore or don't hide their hair, I find it utterly stupid. Just as stupid as people who say that a cultural practice like excision is evil and makes a whole culture "inferior".
As a political subject and a citizen, I don't want excision to happen in the country I live in, but this is politics. But I won't have this arrogant XIXth century attitude to say that Zulu culture is inferior to mine. Because that doesn't make sense and that I am smart enough to understand cultural relativism.
On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
You're arguing that no culture can be condemned morally by any other.
That is not good logic.
On the opposite, it's very logical.
Judging a culture with the intellectual tools of another culture will lead you to say that what is similar to your culture is good and what is different is bad.
When I hear fundamentalist Islamist say that our culture is depraved and perverted because women dress like whore or don't hide their hair, I find it utterly stupid. Just as stupid as people who say that a cultural practice like excision is evil and makes a whole culture "inferior".
As a political subject and a citizen, I don't want excision to happen in the country I live in, but this is politics. But I won't have this arrogant XIXth century attitude to say that Zulu culture is inferior to mine. Because that doesn't make sense and that I am smart enough to understand cultural relativism.
No actually some cultures are just inferior. When cultures look down on women and abuse children etc it is inferior. You just have to accept that. If you dont then you're saying that all cultures = equal which, you know, is a pretty stupid thing to say.
I dont know how it doesnt make sense.
Edit: ahh, this thread is moving more and more off topic
On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
You're arguing that no culture can be condemned morally by any other.
That is not good logic.
On the opposite, it's very logical.
Judging a culture with the intellectual tools of another culture will lead you to say that what is similar to your culture is good and what is different is bad.
When I hear fundamentalist Islamist say that our culture is depraved and perverted because women dress like whore or don't hide their hair, I find it utterly stupid. Just as stupid as people who say that a cultural practice like excision is evil and makes a whole culture "inferior".
As a political subject and a citizen, I don't want excision to happen in the country I live in, but this is politics. But I won't have this arrogant XIXth century attitude to say that Zulu culture is inferior to mine. Because that doesn't make sense and that I am smart enough to understand cultural relativism.
We're not saying the gypsy culture is inferior. We're just saying its undesirable.
Why is it undesirable? Read all the pages in the thread.
Relatives to a gypsy lord have killed a 19yo old boy. The Gypsy lord (Tzar Kiro, btw Tzar (Czar, Car etc) means king) is known for being one of the lords of the gypsy mafia in Bulgaria, and mb eastern Europe as well. First was said that his grandson have killed the victim, after that they found that it was some nonamed 50 year old gypsy who publicly said "I thought i was hitting a dog with the car". For the past years Tzar Kiro and his relatives were terorrizing the village where they are leaving.
So the reaction of the ppl was to protest against their "neighbours" aka Tzar Kiro's family and etc.
This went into mass "riots" in many cities across the country against Tzar Kiro. Well... ppl everywhere are totally pissed of the "gypsy issue" and started protesting against the unfair situation where gypsy > normal citizen who is paying his taxes, going to work/school and as u understand being robbed on daily basis.
So atm the protest idea is evolving. From: "Tzar Kiro go away from Katunitsa" Into: "Cigani (gypsies) start to pay and work or gtfo"
The problem is there that the government is too weak and prefer to get money from mafia instead to work on the problem.
If I can make paralel it's something like Greece and it's economy problems born ~2000.
The response from the gypsy community (the reach gypsies got the word) is that it's getting ezier for them to answer and soon the responses will be: From: "We won't go away from Katunitsa (the village)" Into: "You are discriminating us so you will need to pay us for ur racism"
And just because the government is too weak to handle the situation in proper way it's gonna be this way.
Soooo If u say that these riots are based on racist conceptions you should undestand that you are just nothing more then a dissembler. Imagine there is a gang in your school which terrorizes you almost everyday and is unpunished. What would you do? A: I won't do anything cause that's racist... They are beating and stealing me but that's there culture! B: Go to the principle, talk with the other guys in school, and take any measures which u can imagine just to have the opportunity to live they way you should live.
P.S. Just to note - two of the gypsy lords i recall atm are Tzar Kiro (Kiril Rashkov) and Tsvetelin Kanchev. They both have been in prison... Do you think it's a coincidence that such people are leading most of the gypsies in Bulgaria? I think not.
On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
You're arguing that no culture can be condemned morally by any other.
That is not good logic.
On the opposite, it's very logical.
Judging a culture with the intellectual tools of another culture will lead you to say that what is similar to your culture is good and what is different is bad.
When I hear fundamentalist Islamist say that our culture is depraved and perverted because women dress like whore or don't hide their hair, I find it utterly stupid. Just as stupid as people who say that a cultural practice like excision is evil and makes a whole culture "inferior".
As a political subject and a citizen, I don't want excision to happen in the country I live in, but this is politics. But I won't have this arrogant XIXth century attitude to say that Zulu culture is inferior to mine. Because that doesn't make sense and that I am smart enough to understand cultural relativism.
You are wrong. Some cultures are just inferior to others.
On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
You're arguing that no culture can be condemned morally by any other.
That is not good logic.
On the opposite, it's very logical.
Judging a culture with the intellectual tools of another culture will lead you to say that what is similar to your culture is good and what is different is bad.
When I hear fundamentalist Islamist say that our culture is depraved and perverted because women dress like whore or don't hide their hair, I find it utterly stupid. Just as stupid as people who say that a cultural practice like excision is evil and makes a whole culture "inferior".
As a political subject and a citizen, I don't want excision to happen in the country I live in, but this is politics. But I won't have this arrogant XIXth century attitude to say that Zulu culture is inferior to mine. Because that doesn't make sense and that I am smart enough to understand cultural relativism.
So according to your cultural relativism we should never condemn anything that is a widespread practice in another culture? Then by this logic there is nothing objectively wrong with teaching young children to steal and not letting them go to school and making them sift through garbage all day and sell drugs. It's just that we don't understand their culture right?
And I guess there's also nothing objectively wrong with caning or stoning to death or burning with acid a woman who has been raped, it's just that we also don't understand their culture, right?
Also I suppose there's nothing objectively wrong with raping a virgin believing that it will cure you of AIDS. It's just were too locked into our scientific knowledge to understand a broader worldview, am I correct or way off base here?
On September 28 2011 23:38 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 28 2011 23:10 Dfgj wrote:
On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
You're arguing that no culture can be condemned morally by any other.
That is not good logic.
On the opposite, it's very logical.
Judging a culture with the intellectual tools of another culture will lead you to say that what is similar to your culture is good and what is different is bad.
When I hear fundamentalist Islamist say that our culture is depraved and perverted because women dress like whore or don't hide their hair, I find it utterly stupid. Just as stupid as people who say that a cultural practice like excision is evil and makes a whole culture "inferior".
As a political subject and a citizen, I don't want excision to happen in the country I live in, but this is politics. But I won't have this arrogant XIXth century attitude to say that Zulu culture is inferior to mine. Because that doesn't make sense and that I am smart enough to understand cultural relativism.
You are wrong. Some cultures are just inferior to others.
video explains perfectly why some cultures (it mainly focuses on religious cultures, but the point remains the same) are inferior.
It's not possible to go down the line of thinking you're doing right now. You'll find yourself justifying murder and rape along the road.
And here i thought people playing starcraft were clever enough to recognize that cultural differences along with racial or simply intelectual ones needed to be respected. Here i read this and I feel like reading some extreme board on an obscure site somewhere on the Internet, except people are not banned when they defend the minorities.
I will not judge a whole community by the deeds of some. "Oh my god, Deezer cheats, all the starcraft 2 player will cheat, please ban them from The Internet !"
The danger of extremes is the generalization leading to the hatred of masses, and sometimes to the extreme decisions that are made because of a minority of extreme extremist followed by lesser extremist but far more numerous. Playing with the fear of people is usually the way those guys operate, fear of unemployment, fear of state bankrupcy, fear of stealing, fear of rape, fear of <insert here whatever you fear>.
Reading this topic i felt strange about myself, for being part of such a strange generation. While Internet destroyed borders people from everywhere in the world started talking to each other and nation-wide racism disappeared alltogether, but cultural discrimination stayed up and valliant wether it's an arbitrary non-geeky culture or simply people with different ways to live.
I'm sorry to say that but a lot of gipsies are good people, and you're insulting them all while we should just make sur countries stop the one who are actually comitting crimes... A few years back i broke my bike near a camp of gipsies, falling and breaking an arm and two libs, they brought me to an hospital and when i came back to thank them two weeks later, the gave my bycicle back. Not all people are bad, wether or not you want it, some make mistakes, some are criminals, others are terrorists, and some destroy whole country economies, but you should never ever generalize something.
I'm feeling bad as a man after reading all that i read on this topic, and I really hope some dood didn't link me here by pointing as this topic after reading Cloud statements. Do people really need to talk to WW2 surivivors to know what extreme can lead to ?! Do people still need such an atrocious thing to happen again before they stop saying such stupid statements.
For you personal culture, you should all go look at what europeans thought about jews between 1880 and the 1950s everywhere in the EU even in England, Spain and scandinavia. Nazis didn't invent antisemitism, they used it as a fuel to obtain the power in Germany, they used the fear created by normal politicians from that time. Why this fuel exists ? Simply because a lot of rich/powerful families were jews, people envied them, and politics/kings/lords used this envy as a tool to obtain more power by enducing fear of them, diminishing their fortune or their power by making masses to fear and then to hate them. It was easier then because a lot of people were uneducated but still reading such statements now is hope-breaking.
EU politicians from our time are pointing fingers towards gypsies, using the fear of people to promote themselves, they will ensure the dominance of some extremist one day, and I don't want to live that day.
On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
You're arguing that no culture can be condemned morally by any other.
That is not good logic.
On the opposite, it's very logical.
Judging a culture with the intellectual tools of another culture will lead you to say that what is similar to your culture is good and what is different is bad.
When I hear fundamentalist Islamist say that our culture is depraved and perverted because women dress like whore or don't hide their hair, I find it utterly stupid. Just as stupid as people who say that a cultural practice like excision is evil and makes a whole culture "inferior".
As a political subject and a citizen, I don't want excision to happen in the country I live in, but this is politics. But I won't have this arrogant XIXth century attitude to say that Zulu culture is inferior to mine. Because that doesn't make sense and that I am smart enough to understand cultural relativism.
This would mean that morally reprehensible acts such as rape, genocide, and torture are completely ethical so long as a culture supports them. It also implies that a culture cannot be morally misguided because morals are culturally dependent. Furthermore, it suggests that no moral objection can be made to any group that identifies as a culture performing any action they deem suitable within their community.
On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
You're arguing that no culture can be condemned morally by any other.
That is not good logic.
On the opposite, it's very logical.
Judging a culture with the intellectual tools of another culture will lead you to say that what is similar to your culture is good and what is different is bad.
When I hear fundamentalist Islamist say that our culture is depraved and perverted because women dress like whore or don't hide their hair, I find it utterly stupid. Just as stupid as people who say that a cultural practice like excision is evil and makes a whole culture "inferior".
As a political subject and a citizen, I don't want excision to happen in the country I live in, but this is politics. But I won't have this arrogant XIXth century attitude to say that Zulu culture is inferior to mine. Because that doesn't make sense and that I am smart enough to understand cultural relativism.
So all values are relative except for the value of not condemning other cultures? Sounds plausible...
I'll never understand why moral relativists think that their view implies some form of compassion for other cultures rather than the hegemony of whatever your culture happens to say, whether or not what it says condemns those other cultures.
The biggest problem is here, IMHO, that the Bulgarian government does not serve Bulgarian people, but some financial or criminal groups instead. People have right to demand the government to protect their interests. If the government not willing to do so, then people have to act. Bulgarians, do not expect that the West understands or supports you. They have their own interests (keep the gipsies outside), and their own believes (attack on an ethnic group is bad, racism, etc. no matter what). Keep fighting for your rights. If you unite, you can ask gipsies out, can ask the government out. It is your land, your country, you are the vast majority. If you are afraid to act, than you deserve that gipsies and the corrupt government rule you. The government will not let the situation unfold up to a kind of revolution of course. They arrested Rashkov and I guess will reach agreement with him that they have to "punish" him in some way to cool the people down. After some time it will come back to "normal", like it was before.
Gypsies are a problem there because they don't work, they don't go to school, they commit crimes often and they depend on government's help. They're pretty useless if they can't live and pay taxes like normal people.
When I posted my reply on page 13 I had not read all of the replies here. Jesus Christ, liberals, just come off it. You're having people from like 10 countries (eastern AND WESTERN Europe) and 2-3 races basically telling you the exact same thing. In addition to my post on page 13 I would like to ask all the peace loving liberals what else should Europe give to the gypsies? What hasn't been given to them already? Our mothers? Our paychecks? Our blood? The teeth in our mouths? If 20 million or so romanians pack up and leave the patch of earth their ancestors spilt lakes of their own blood over for 900+ years, will that finally be enough? Will that be PC? Would we finally be better than Hitler? Anyone who claims that this would never happen in the US and Canada and that those countries have mad skills at integrating immigrants would be singing an entirely different song if they had half the gypsies eastern Europe has. Western Europe had the exact same preachy attitude before Romania and Bulgaria were part of the EU, things are very different now. And I'm not even talking about the deportation. I'm talking about the fact that even white romanians are very likely to face discrimination in western Europe for no reason other than being from that place where all the gypsies come from. If that's the case with romanians then consider the amount of hatred they have for gypsies in western Europe, a place that was preaching tolerance and equality just a few years ago. And if americans and canadians think that their countries would've acted differently they need to lay off the horse tranquilizers.
Another thing I forgot to mention in my initial post is that at least one if not more gypsy mafiosos are in cahoots with the romanian president. And they're very open about it, it's not a conspiracy theory. There's plenty of footage showing him interacting with the president, his wife and his brother. And yes, he's a criminal not a business man, he's illiterate. I'm saying this as an answer to the people asking how are gypsies different from blacks or mexicans in America.
So just stop telling everybody how to solve their problems, you don't have to have an opinion about EVERYTHING. Especially about people you haven't had any contact with that live in countries you know nothing about and couldn't even identify on the map. I'M SO INFORMED ON THE SUBJECT OF INTEGRATING GYPSIES IN BULGARIA I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHERE IT IS! Just stop. If you were to come here and live the life, walk the streets and watch the news for no more than 1 year the disillusionment would hit you so brutally you would crawl under a rock and die from embarrassment for spewing such nonsense.
Judging a culture with the intellectual tools of another culture will lead you to say that what is similar to your culture is good and what is different is bad.
When I hear fundamentalist Islamist say that our culture is depraved and perverted because women dress like whore or don't hide their hair, I find it utterly stupid. Just as stupid as people who say that a cultural practice like excision is evil and makes a whole culture "inferior".
Of course a culture that practices excision and the systematic repression of women and is permeated with xenophobia, racism, and religious supremacism is inferior to one that is not.
It has to do with cultural values not being more important than individual freedom and dignity.
Talking like Biff does about how using another culture's perspective is wrong denies the existence of a common humanity and a universal level of respect and autonomy that all humans are entitled to, something that crosses cultures. Identifying this with Western culture alone, rather than being a contribution of Western culture to the understanding of humanity in general is, well, typical of the extreme left mindset that runs off deconstruction and obfuscation.
Personally I think no one should be allowed to criticize capitalism because that's our culture and if you don't like it you're just racist against us. Why are you racist like that Biff? It's our culture you have no right to judge.
this aint about liberals either guy, im very definitely liberal in almost all my views, gypsies are really an extremely niche phenomenon that some people have little experience of
again, preventing the children from having a solid chance at life is what settles it for me, this is absolutely reprehensible and its not an exception that this happens, rather the rule
Wow blahblahblahwhatever i didnt know our president is so famous beyond our borders, even the relations whit the gypsies are known.As a fact this week one of his close friends, a gypsie mafia boss was arrested and the presidents brother sent the famillys lawyer to defend him.Im sad to say but my country sux big time, and while the president is involved in such things, chances are nothing will change pretty soon.As they say, the fish begins to rot from the head. The western countries from the EU talk about discrimination and how to integrate gypsies into society, but they dont do anything about it, in fact France is giving gypsies 300 euros and sending them back to their home countries...gg bro, and they create so called discrimination and integration societies imposing stupid rules in Romania and Bulgaria, rules that even they dont obey or belive in them.
EPT
