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Bulgarian Riots - Page 31
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friendbg
Bulgaria576 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
http://www.megavideo.com/?v=HUB1YBOD Seriously, watch it. Some highlights include: Selling off 12 year old daughters for marriage, forcing children as young as 10 to beg and steal all day, keeping children locked up at night as slaves etc. Seriously saying someone is racist for criticizing these things is as stupid as calling someone racist against Italians for criticizing the Mafia. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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vasatko2
Czech Republic28 Posts
OMG If Bulgarians make a civil war i won't wonder why, this is truly terrible | ||
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matoko
Bulgaria1 Post
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
I remember watching a movie about gypsies, "Gadjo Dillo" where one gypsy gets into a bar fight and the entire local/white/slavic (not sure what's the setting) community herded into the gypsy settlement (there were some houses, gates, walls and fencing unlike the gettos in the documentary) and burnt the whole place down. I was totally confused and thought it was some stupid movie plot but after reading this thread, I get it. | ||
KwarK
United States42522 Posts
On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Yeah, I can see a proof that far right is just as disgusting in Czech Rpublic as it is with Switzerland or France. Well, for us, it's black people and Muslims who are lazy and want to steal your money. Fun fact, our far-right was saying exactly the same about Polish people and eastern European Jews in the 20's 30's; when they were a minority of immigrant in France. The exact same crap: they don't want to integrate, they are dishonest, they are lazy, etc... Oh, well, I guess Polish people were fine after all. Now it's Arabs. Or Gypsies. I wonder if we will need concentration camps again to remember that this racist crap is maybe not a good idea. Some cultures are inferior. That's interesting. I wonder if Gypsies think your culture is superior or inferior. I guess Jewish culture was inferior sixty years ago, but now it's superior. Superior to Muslim culture, who was superior than European culture three hundred years ago. Oh I get it. You culture is superior if you are the strongest, the wealthiest and the most dominant. Seriously Kwark. You believe this crap? On what criteria do you define "objectively" a culture as being superior. I don't find us superior to anyone, to be honest. Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas? Doesn't make any sense. Cultural relativism is a bullshit excuse to avoid taking a hard stance on anything while acting morally superior for doing so. A culture isn't some magical thing ordained from above, it's just what people do. For example Britain has a binge drinking culture, it doesn't mean it's right, it doesn't mean we should define ourselves by it, it doesn't mean it's healthy, it means people in Britain like to get drunk. That's all it means. No more. Saying that because a lot of people like to do something it becomes above criticism is both absurd and logically self defeating (as if anything this topic proves Europe has a culture of intolerance which you should respect). Yes, Muslims who think pornography is wrong are wrong. Studies have been done, pornography doesn't significantly change gender relations or public morals. That one's not even subjective, they're just not very smart with the whole facts thing. Moving onto something more subjective, female circumcision. Still wrong. It's barbaric, torturous, sexist and puts them at massive risk of death from infection. On the cons side we're looking at massive amounts of pain, the attempted destruction of the female libido, slavery of her body and often death. On the pro side we have "it's their culture". While I am admittedly an outsider here I think it's pretty fucking obvious which side to come down on. In the more extreme case the girl is completely stitched shut, with the exception of a tiny whole to urinate, and then cut open for marriage and child birth. My culture is superior because we don't do this shit. My culture isn't perfect, no culture is, but to say there's no such thing as superior and inferior is burying your head in the sand. In the West we tend to suffer from post imperialist guilt and have this strange idea that because taking their resources and exploiting other peoples economically was wrong we shouldn't interfere. Well, in pre-colonial India there was a practice called Sati where a widowed woman would burn herself alive on her husband's pyre rather than be a burden to the family. I'm proud that 19th Century British imperialists had the confidence to point out how fucking retarded that was (along with many Indian reformers) and put a stop to it and I doubt you'd get many Indians today bitching about legislation against their culture. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On September 29 2011 02:26 tomatriedes wrote: Anyone who thinks there's absolutely nothing wrong with these Gypsy clans and anyone who criticizes them is racist should watch the entirety of this video that was posted earlier: http://www.megavideo.com/?v=HUB1YBOD Seriously, watch it. Some highlights include: Selling off 12 year old daughters for marriage, forcing children as young as 10 to beg and steal all day, keeping children locked up at night as slaves etc. Seriously saying someone is racist for criticizing these things is as stupid as calling someone racist against Italians for criticizing the Mafia. See that's the thing though. You can't critizise all Italians for the mafia, which is what you're trying to do. All Romas don't do that stuff. Condemn criminals, not cultures or races. If you do something illegal you should be punished, regardless of your background. Why do you even have to bring in the fact that they happen to be Romas? It's irrelevant. | ||
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Thorakh
Netherlands1788 Posts
On September 29 2011 04:50 Euronyme wrote: Because apparently stealing, pickpocketing and other shady things are integrated into their culture. At the end of the video even a gypsy mafia boss agrees that this cannot continue any longer. He says the gypsy children should go to school and study, not roam the streets trying to rob people.See that's the thing though. You can't critizise all Italians for the mafia, which is what you're trying to do. All Romas don't do that stuff. Condemn criminals, not cultures or races. If you do something illegal you should be punished, regardless of your background. Why do you even have to bring in the fact that they happen to be Romas? It's irrelevant. Stealing, begging and being involved in the mafia isn't part of the Italian culture, just like it isn't part of the African American culture. Evidently it is part of the gypsy culture and therefore the gypsy culture is bad. The Roma people are not inherently bad, no race is. Their culture is bad. Discriminating against Roma is racism, discriminating against gypsies is not (if gypsy = culture and Roma = ethnicity). I am confident that there are great parts to gypsy culture, but some things are rotten about it and should be taken care of. Just because they have good traits doesn't mean nothing bad should be said about the culture. That video is really amazing by the way. | ||
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Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
On September 29 2011 04:50 Euronyme wrote: See that's the thing though. You can't critizise all Italians for the mafia, which is what you're trying to do. All Romas don't do that stuff. Condemn criminals, not cultures or races. If you do something illegal you should be punished, regardless of your background. Why do you even have to bring in the fact that they happen to be Romas? It's irrelevant. See, you SHOULD condemn cultures. Why shouldnt you? You should not condemn race, and nobody is doing that anyways. Nobody is saying that because just because you're a gypsy then you must be a criminal, we're talking about the culture. To use Kwarks example it's like saying "brits like to drink". We're not saying all brits like to drink, but a lot do. There is nothing wrong with saying that. Saying that gypsies are a problem in many European countries is not racist either. Or do you just want to ignore the obvious correlation between gypsies and the things they do? It's obvious that it's in their culture (hint: nobody is talking about genes here). Because it is quite obvious, and it is a problem. What else do you want to call this group of people? | ||
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Tudi
Romania127 Posts
Near my hometown of Cluj there was an entire village of them who did not have, nor want to have IDs. I agree everyone should have equal rights, but I'd also like everyone to have the same obligations towards society. | ||
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vasatko2
Czech Republic28 Posts
All Romas don't do that stuff. Condemn criminals, not cultures or races. If you do something illegal you should be punished, regardless of your background. Why do you even have to bring in the fact that they happen to be Romas? It's irrelevant. I see complete blindless here... None of regular Bulgarians act like romas. All romas don't do that but majority does. So instead od saying "romas except the good ones" we just say "romas". We mean only those ones who act like this. And they won't be punished because goverment is on the side of romas. got it? read some responces pls and then post something | ||
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Cokefreak
Finland8095 Posts
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2042273/Romanian-thief-distracts-shop-assistant-puts-54k-jewellery-SKIRT.html | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On September 29 2011 04:50 Euronyme wrote: See that's the thing though. You can't critizise all Italians for the mafia, which is what you're trying to do. All Romas don't do that stuff. Condemn criminals, not cultures or races. If you do something illegal you should be punished, regardless of your background. Why do you even have to bring in the fact that they happen to be Romas? It's irrelevant. Did you actually watch the video? Of course not every single person does it but he sending of young children to beg and steal does actually seem a part of their culture. And the selling of underage girls as brides is certainly a cultural practice. Even the PC Italian people who were trying to help them by giving them free houses said there are some parts of their culture that they will have to renounce if they want to fit into society. That's not racism, that's reality. Nobody is saying that every single Roma person is bad, the argument is that there is a cultural norm in their society that it is OK to exploit children and not contribute to society and this is a problem that needs to be addressed if they want to integrate. Burying your head in the sand and pretending there is no problem here in the name of political correctness doesn't actually help anyone. Of course, it's not good to have any prejudice or hate for any particular people but ignoring what is going on is just as bad and will do nothing to break the cycle of exploitation. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On September 29 2011 04:56 Thorakh wrote: Because apparently stealing, pickpocketing and other shady things are integrated into their culture. At the end of the video even a gypsy mafia boss agrees that this cannot continue any longer. He says the gypsy children should go to school and study, not roam the streets trying to rob people. Stealing, begging and being involved in the mafia isn't part of the Italian culture, just like it isn't part of the African American culture. Evidently it is part of the gypsy culture and therefore the gypsy culture is bad. The Roma people are not inherently bad, no race is. Their culture is bad. Discriminating against Roma is racism, discriminating against gypsies is not (if gypsy = culture and Roma = ethnicity). I am confident that there are great parts to gypsy culture, but some things are rotten about it and should be taken care of. Just because they have good traits doesn't mean nothing bad should be said about the culture. That video is really amazing by the way. Well FYI Roma and Gypsy is the same thing. Gypsy would be the equivilant of calling someone a nigger. I just get goose bumps when someone says overarching things about huge amount of people, as if they had a clue. Also most pro racism people in this thread seem to bring up single events as proof that all Romas are thieves, rapists, murderers and evil in general. If "stealing, pickpocketing and other shady things" are indeed integrated into their culture, then ask yourself why?. Maybe because they've been hunted down, force sterelized no longer than 30 years ago, had their ears cut off, been enslaved etc etc. This has systematically been going on in Europe for the past 700+ years. There are famous musicians, smiths and artist among the Roma people. These "cultural differences" are exactly what was the standpoint behind the genocides during ww2. How can generalizing culture groups possible be defendable? Please answere my question as well. If you don't like thieves and murderers, why do you have to bring in an entire group of people as responsible for these actions? (I highly doubt all murderers and thieves in any country are Romas, even though that's appearantly what you want me to believe). Why isn't it enough to say that murder and theft is bad and we have to do something about problems with increased criminality? | ||
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KwarK
United States42522 Posts
On September 29 2011 05:19 Euronyme wrote: If you don't like thieves and murderers, why do you have to bring in an entire group of people as responsible for these actions? (I highly doubt all murderers and thieves in any country are Romas, even though that's appearantly what you want me to believe). Why isn't it enough to say that murder and theft is bad and we have to do something about problems with increased criminality? Just because some A are also Bs does not mean all Bs are As. Nobody is suggesting that and yet what you've done is set that up as an argument that someone else has made and then defended yourself against it. Nobody here is arguing that all murderers are gypsies. That wouldn't make any sense. | ||
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419
Russian Federation3631 Posts
On September 28 2011 23:38 Biff The Understudy wrote: On the opposite, it's very logical. Judging a culture with the intellectual tools of another culture will lead you to say that what is similar to your culture is good and what is different is bad. When I hear fundamentalist Islamist say that our culture is depraved and perverted because women dress like whore or don't hide their hair, I find it utterly stupid. Just as stupid as people who say that a cultural practice like excision is evil and makes a whole culture "inferior". As a political subject and a citizen, I don't want excision to happen in the country I live in, but this is politics. But I won't have this arrogant XIXth century attitude to say that Zulu culture is inferior to mine. Because that doesn't make sense and that I am smart enough to understand cultural relativism. If you truly buy into that, than you simply can't objectively condemn any labeling of any culture as inferior. After all, said labeling is part of my culture, no? You're essentially arguing "all cultures are equal and can't judge each other, and I can make that judgement because I *somehow* have some objective understanding of all cultures". In order to make the first part of the argument, the second necessarily has to follow. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
It's actually an interesting point someone brought up about the italian mafia. One could argue they had a "criminal culture" like the Roma, but we didn't treat it as a racial thing. We treated it as a criminal thing, and breaking it down from the criminal perspective. | ||
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Thorakh
Netherlands1788 Posts
Well FYI Roma and Gypsy is the same thing. Gypsy would be the equivilant of calling someone a nigger. That is just semantics. I don't know any other word for their culture than 'gypsy culture'.I just get goose bumps when someone says overarching things about huge amount of people, as if they had a clue. Also most pro racism people in this thread seem to bring up single events as proof that all Romas are thieves, rapists, murderers and evil in general. There are no pro racism people in this thread. And how are people bringing up single events as proof? There have been multiple documentaries posted, tens of people from Eastern Europe saying it is a problem... what more proof do you want?If "stealing, pickpocketing and other shady things" are indeed integrated into their culture, then ask yourself why?. Apparently (as said by several Eastern Europeans and as seen in the 60 min documentary) Gypsies are offered help. They refuse it.Maybe because they've been hunted down, force sterelized no longer than 30 years ago, had their ears cut off, been enslaved etc etc. This has systematically been going on in Europe for the past 700+ years. There are famous musicians, smiths and artist among the Roma people. Your point being...?These "cultural differences" are exactly what was the standpoint behind the genocides during ww2. How can generalizing culture groups possible be defendable? Oh dear, let's play the Nazi card again. How about it is defendable when a culture actually is bad?Please answere my question as well. If you don't like thieves and murderers, why do you have to bring in an entire group of people as responsible for these actions? (I highly doubt all murderers and thieves in any country are Romas, even though that's appearantly what you want me to believe). Because you are dancing around the problem which is gypsy culture encouraging theft and other shady acts. Also, stop using strawmans, NO ONE in this thread is postulating that ALL murderers and thiefs are gypsies.Why isn't it enough to say that murder and theft is bad and we have to do something about problems with increased criminality? Again, the CULTURE is the problem not the ethnicity. I couldn't care less what color you are, what your tongue is or what country your parents originated from. Cultures have good traits and bad ones, cultures that have very bad traits should be dealt with. NOT with extermination of course but in peacuful ways, as that it what civiziled humans do. | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
We're the most successful socialistic, among the wealthiest, nation on earth, with the most welfare, the most consumer rights, the most rights including free health care, the least economical difference between classes, and in general, the philosophy is that everyone have a right to a good life, and everyone contributes a lot (very high taxes, in addition to oil based income, means the state is very large, and provide social services for pretty much everyone of quite good quality). In addition, we have very little corruption. Possibly the best, or among the best 5, nations on earth to live. One of two or three democratic countries on earth that does not have financial problems or high unemployment at the moment. Gypsies aren't a big problem here. We don't have many. However... A significant minority of those here ... 1) Use fraud (including fake children, or borrowing children) to get welfare checks. 2) Fake personality disorders or other disabilities to get welfare money. 3) Pull their children out of school at a very early age, before they gain marketable skills enough to finish an education if they would chose to do so for themselves once they get older. A majority of the adults are functionally illiterate, beggars, smugglers, don't own property or take part in the white economy, and cheat the system as best they can. It's seen as an acceptable way of life. Now, we can afford to, and is by law required to, and do provide, free housing to those without income. And money. So it's not like they aren't given a place to live or money so they can function as part of society. They just take that - and then instead of trying to get a normal job, the majority tries to figure out additional ways to get money from the system. Children are married at an age where it's illegal, but it's not punished (and we punish Iraqi, Irani, Pakistani, Somali parents that do the same - they go to jail). In general, beggars in Norway comes in two types: alcoholics and drug abusers, and gypsies. It's about the same amount of each. Which is really weird, considering we have very very few gypsies that live in Norway permanently. They just travel here to beg, and it's seen as a viable way to make an additional income to welfare checks for those that live here. Also, the drunks and drug abusers are mainly of the type that politely asks if you could help them with some change, the gypsies can be damn annoying, pay annoyingly loud music (in public transportation, so you can't get away), or combine it with stealing. The child welfare system here turns a semi blind eye to gypsy families, considering it's a native European 'culture' - but in reality, native Norwegians would NOT be allowed to let their children live in the same way as gypsy children are or raise them that way.You would have the state take over responsibility. The fact that they do not turn a completely blind eye to it though, and actually have taken children away from gypsies, is a large reason for why gypsies aren't here in great numbers. But it's also a fact that when you judge someone because of their culture or ethnicity, it is racism. And to some degree, that is done. It's just that people outside Europe doesn't understand that the racism that exists against gypsies - and it does exist - is actually pretty much based on the fact that those that chose NOT to integrate, and embrace the gypsy culture, are in effect a drain on society. For numbers, you can look at Romania ... where 14% of gypsies in rural areas work, and 49% in the big cities (compared to roughly a bit over 60% of everyone). Why? Because those that are in big cities, more often are those that try to integrate ... It's like ... no one would even know you are 'a gypsy' here in Norway, if you didn't act and dress like one. We got large Indian, Pakistani, Afghani, and other minority groups. People aren't going 'oh we don't mind Indians, it's gypsies we hate'. People go 'oh it's fucking annoying with those damn stealing beggars that have to be pushed away to get them to stop, and you later realize they stole your phone'. Which dominantly are gypsies. Begging is actually legal in Norway, because it wasn't seen as a problem, and it has been some - but not much - debate about making it illegal only to have a legal way to deal with gypsies ... So yeah, I do feel for those nations that have to deal with tens of thousands. Not the ethnic group. Couldn't care less. Those that share that specific culture that is being a problem. Because they are overall predominantly leeching resources from society without contributing, and welfare societies are based on the idea that people trust the system isn't widely abused, because it requires popular support, otherwise it will fail. | ||
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