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All racist comments will result in a ban. Think well before posting. |
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On September 28 2011 21:25 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 21:23 hypercube wrote:On September 28 2011 21:10 Thorakh wrote:On September 28 2011 20:55 hypercube wrote:On September 28 2011 20:40 Thorakh wrote:On September 28 2011 20:31 hypercube wrote:On September 28 2011 20:15 KwarK wrote:On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote:
saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot. No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism. What if you start to assume that people share those cultural characteristics because they share the racial features? FWIW, there are people who will claim that gypsies are genetically predisposed towards criminal or antisocial behaviour. But many will say that because they feel blaming it on culture is PC. In the end it's not really an opinion just something they will say because they feel gypsies "deserve" it. Which is why the whole racism debate is unhelpful. It is what is: prejudice based on experience generalized to most or all members of the group who share the same appearance. Whether you think it should be called racism or not shouldn't change your moral judgement of the sort of behaviour. I haven't seen anyone other than Cloud say that because someone is gypsy that person is scum. People who assume every Romani person is scum are stupid. Just like people who assume every black person steals are stupid. You should read more carefully because there was a person who said just that. And a few who seem to be thinking along those lines. And yes, people are stupid. My favourite is when a gypsy (by appearance) gets refused work because apparently they steal and don't like to work. Yeah, the guy who doesn't want to work showed up for an interview. I wonder what he's up to. Maybe he got tired leeching off the state and wants to find a poor employer instead. My point is that just because some people are racists shouldn't mean we should all abstain from discussing bad cultures. And my point is that this has nothing to do with my post. If it wasn't intended to be you might want to make that clear next time, or I might get confused again. Then what was your point? I've read your post multiple times but I can't seem to figure it out.
My point was that many people think that almost all Roma steal and can't function in society. Whether you call that racism or something else, it doesn't matter. It's the same kind of wrong either way.
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On September 28 2011 21:31 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 21:25 Thorakh wrote:On September 28 2011 21:23 hypercube wrote:On September 28 2011 21:10 Thorakh wrote:On September 28 2011 20:55 hypercube wrote:On September 28 2011 20:40 Thorakh wrote:On September 28 2011 20:31 hypercube wrote:On September 28 2011 20:15 KwarK wrote:On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote:
saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot. No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism. What if you start to assume that people share those cultural characteristics because they share the racial features? FWIW, there are people who will claim that gypsies are genetically predisposed towards criminal or antisocial behaviour. But many will say that because they feel blaming it on culture is PC. In the end it's not really an opinion just something they will say because they feel gypsies "deserve" it. Which is why the whole racism debate is unhelpful. It is what is: prejudice based on experience generalized to most or all members of the group who share the same appearance. Whether you think it should be called racism or not shouldn't change your moral judgement of the sort of behaviour. I haven't seen anyone other than Cloud say that because someone is gypsy that person is scum. People who assume every Romani person is scum are stupid. Just like people who assume every black person steals are stupid. You should read more carefully because there was a person who said just that. And a few who seem to be thinking along those lines. And yes, people are stupid. My favourite is when a gypsy (by appearance) gets refused work because apparently they steal and don't like to work. Yeah, the guy who doesn't want to work showed up for an interview. I wonder what he's up to. Maybe he got tired leeching off the state and wants to find a poor employer instead. My point is that just because some people are racists shouldn't mean we should all abstain from discussing bad cultures. And my point is that this has nothing to do with my post. If it wasn't intended to be you might want to make that clear next time, or I might get confused again. Then what was your point? I've read your post multiple times but I can't seem to figure it out. My point was that many people think that almost Roma steal and can't function in society. Whether you call that racism or something else, it doesn't matter. It's the same kind of wrong either way. If we define Roma as the ethnical group and gypsy as the culture, then yes, you are right.
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On September 28 2011 21:12 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 20:15 KwarK wrote:On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote:
saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot. No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism. What a joke. So if I say, for example, that I hate Britons, for whatever reason, say because they are liars and thieves and pedophiles, I can then pretend that I am not a racist because it's not genetic, it's their culture I dislike? Sounds less convincing nuh? It's as dishonest as the people who say that Muslims are the root of all evil in Europe, that they are lazy, they want to invade us, and they are liars etc etc... and then say "Oh we are not racists, it's against Islam and Islamic culture, not against the race". Hating a culture and its people is racism. Like it or not. If someone says that Jews are greedy and liars and that they want to dominate the world, but then say "oh, but it's about Jewish culture, not the race", he is just as antisemitic than someone who hate them on racist theoretical basis. Any kind of hatred towards human group for things they were born with is equally unacceptable, whether it's culture, religion, race, handicap or sex. Now, I know Gypsy musicians who are among the best I have met in my life, play with an incredible virtuosity music from the culture so many people hate without having a clue about; and thinking about them while reading that thread makes me very very sad. It's because of people's attitude and hatred that Gypsies have no chance to integrate, to get a job or to live a honest life.
Uh, if all britons actually are liars, thieves and pedophiles, then its perfectly valid for you to hate them. If all jews actually are greedy and bent on world domination, likewise. If all men are all rapists and oppressors, same as well. The correct response, when something truly vile exists, is to destroy it utterly. The thing is, those stereotypes are false.
That said, cultural relativism is utter crap. A culture that condones honour killings is worse than one that does not, holding all else equal. A culture that promotes narcissism is worse than one that does not. A culture that promotes generosity is better than one that does not. A culture that condones thievery is worse than one that does not. A culture that condones rape is worse than one that does not. A culture that condones dishonesty is worse than one that does not. And so on.
We not only have the right to judge others, but we have the duty to do so. We also have the right to feel however we want about others and the right to have nothing to do with them. You have the right to feel however you want about us too. What a happy circle.
As for the Roma. I don't know, I don't care. Not my problem.
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United States42164 Posts
On September 28 2011 21:12 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 20:15 KwarK wrote:On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote:
saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot. No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism. What a joke. So if I say, for example, that I hate Britons, for whatever reason, say because they are liars and thieves and pedophiles, I can then pretend that I am not a racist because it's not genetic, it's their culture I dislike? Sounds less convincing nuh? It's as dishonest as the people who say that Muslims are the root of all evil in Europe, that they are lazy, they want to invade us, and they are liars etc etc... and then say "Oh we are not racists, it's against Islam and Islamic culture, not against the race". Hating a culture and its people is racism. Like it or not. If someone says that Jews are greedy and liars and that they want to dominate the world, but then say "oh, but it's about Jewish culture, not the race", he is just as antisemitic than someone who hate them on racist theoretical basis. Any kind of hatred towards human group for things they were born with is equally unacceptable, whether it's culture, religion, race, handicap or sex. Now, I know Gypsy musicians who are among the best I have met in my life, play with an incredible virtuosity music from the culture so many people hate without having a clue about; and thinking about them while reading that thread makes me very very sad. It's because of people's attitude and hatred that Gypsies have no chance to integrate, to get a job or to live a honest life.
Some cultures are simply inferior. The difference between disliking something people do and disliking a race should be obvious to everyone though. In one you examine an action which is something which can be quantified, assessed and judged as positive or negative in a relatively objective way. Regarding the other there is no statistical evidence for there being any genetic cultural practices. Therefore if you subscribe to it you're an idiot.
For example. "female circumcision is disgusting, sexist, brutal and inhuman, the people who practice it, mainly indigenous African cultures, should be condemned".
In contrast "blacks are inhuman and should be condemned".
Can you see the difference?
I have just as little patience for different ethnicities of traveller (they exist, it's not just the Romani). It's the culture that pisses me off, not the skin colour or anything like that. And not all cultures are equal.
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On September 28 2011 21:34 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 21:31 hypercube wrote:On September 28 2011 21:25 Thorakh wrote:On September 28 2011 21:23 hypercube wrote:On September 28 2011 21:10 Thorakh wrote:On September 28 2011 20:55 hypercube wrote:On September 28 2011 20:40 Thorakh wrote:On September 28 2011 20:31 hypercube wrote:On September 28 2011 20:15 KwarK wrote:On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote:
saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot. No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism. What if you start to assume that people share those cultural characteristics because they share the racial features? FWIW, there are people who will claim that gypsies are genetically predisposed towards criminal or antisocial behaviour. But many will say that because they feel blaming it on culture is PC. In the end it's not really an opinion just something they will say because they feel gypsies "deserve" it. Which is why the whole racism debate is unhelpful. It is what is: prejudice based on experience generalized to most or all members of the group who share the same appearance. Whether you think it should be called racism or not shouldn't change your moral judgement of the sort of behaviour. I haven't seen anyone other than Cloud say that because someone is gypsy that person is scum. People who assume every Romani person is scum are stupid. Just like people who assume every black person steals are stupid. You should read more carefully because there was a person who said just that. And a few who seem to be thinking along those lines. And yes, people are stupid. My favourite is when a gypsy (by appearance) gets refused work because apparently they steal and don't like to work. Yeah, the guy who doesn't want to work showed up for an interview. I wonder what he's up to. Maybe he got tired leeching off the state and wants to find a poor employer instead. My point is that just because some people are racists shouldn't mean we should all abstain from discussing bad cultures. And my point is that this has nothing to do with my post. If it wasn't intended to be you might want to make that clear next time, or I might get confused again. Then what was your point? I've read your post multiple times but I can't seem to figure it out. My point was that many people think that almost Roma steal and can't function in society. Whether you call that racism or something else, it doesn't matter. It's the same kind of wrong either way. If we define Roma as the ethnical group and gypsy as the culture, then yes, you are right.
Not sure about the rest of Eastern Europe but in Hungary we use the same word for both. It's not a black and white issue either. Some groups might share some cultural values (like close family ties, relative isolation) but not others, like completely ignoring the law.
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After reading whole thread (boring day at the office;)). I have hard time beliving some ppl here r actually defending organized crime. WTF..
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i would like to note this picture about Slovakian political party campaign advert
![[image loading]](http://media.novinky.cz/342/213423-gallery1-nyvh7.jpg)
The advert says "Don't feed those who don't want to work"
Here you can see a proof that it's a problem all over the Europe
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On September 28 2011 21:20 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +Hating a culture and its people is racism. Like it or not. If someone says that Jews are greedy and liars and that they want to dominate the world, but then say "oh, but it's about Jewish culture, not the race", he is just as antisemitic than someone who hate them on racist theoretical basis. Any kind of hatred towards human group for things they were born with is equally unacceptable, whether it's culture, religion, race, handicap or sex. But if Jews ARE greedy and liars then that is a valid reason to label their culture as bad. If gypsy culture means stealing, begging and other kinds of shady things that means gypsy culture is bad. There is NOTHING racist about that. It becomes racist when you discriminate against functioning Roma people. And just so you know, you aren't born with a culture, you are born in a culture. You can change your culture but not your skin color. Therefore hatred against a culture is perfectly acceptable if the reasons for it are valid. Show nested quote +Now, I know Gypsy musicians who are among the best I have met in my life, play with an incredible virtuosity music from the culture so many people hate without having a clue about; and thinking about them while reading that thread makes me very very sad. It's because of people's attitude and hatred that Gypsies have no chance to integrate, to get a job or to live a honest life. According to all the Eastern Europeans gypsies are being given a chance but they don't take it. And besides, of course there are Roma people who are great human beings. That's why it's not racism, but hate against a culture (which may or may not be justified, but judging from the responses of Eastern Europeans it seems justified).
Funny. So... Racism is not racism if it's right. You are saying, if Jews are indeed greedy, it's not racist, if they are not, it is. Your argument about changing culture is ridiculous. I hate Jews but I'm fine if they converted and don't follow Jewish tradition anymore. That's LOL
I give you another interpretation of what you are saying, the way I hear it: racists always claim they are not racists, that they just state facts. That's the opinion of every racist in the world. People who pretend to "just hate a culture" are the most conventional and mainstream racists.
As I said earlier, I know fantastic Gypsy musicians. Nobody is more into the Gypsy culture than them. And, surprise! They don't steal, they are not pedophile and they are very loyal. Oh, wait, they are not uber-poor because they managed to get a job.
Racism => Exclusion => Poverty + Low Education level => Criminality.
What about that?
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On September 28 2011 22:16 vasatko2 wrote:i would like to note this picture about Slovakian political party campaign advert The advert says "Don't feed those who don't want to work" Here you can see a proof that it's a problem all over the Europe
Yeah, I can see a proof that far right is just as disgusting in Czech Rpublic as it is with Switzerland or France. Well, for us, it's black people and Muslims who are lazy and want to steal your money.
Fun fact, our far-right was saying exactly the same about Polish people and eastern European Jews in the 20's 30's; when they were a minority of immigrant in France. The exact same crap: they don't want to integrate, they are dishonest, they are lazy, etc... Oh, well, I guess Polish people were fine after all. Now it's Arabs. Or Gypsies. I wonder if we will need concentration camps again to remember that this racist crap is maybe not a good idea.
On September 28 2011 21:49 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 21:12 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 28 2011 20:15 KwarK wrote:On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote:
saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot. No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism. What a joke. So if I say, for example, that I hate Britons, for whatever reason, say because they are liars and thieves and pedophiles, I can then pretend that I am not a racist because it's not genetic, it's their culture I dislike? Sounds less convincing nuh? It's as dishonest as the people who say that Muslims are the root of all evil in Europe, that they are lazy, they want to invade us, and they are liars etc etc... and then say "Oh we are not racists, it's against Islam and Islamic culture, not against the race". Hating a culture and its people is racism. Like it or not. If someone says that Jews are greedy and liars and that they want to dominate the world, but then say "oh, but it's about Jewish culture, not the race", he is just as antisemitic than someone who hate them on racist theoretical basis. Any kind of hatred towards human group for things they were born with is equally unacceptable, whether it's culture, religion, race, handicap or sex. Now, I know Gypsy musicians who are among the best I have met in my life, play with an incredible virtuosity music from the culture so many people hate without having a clue about; and thinking about them while reading that thread makes me very very sad. It's because of people's attitude and hatred that Gypsies have no chance to integrate, to get a job or to live a honest life. Some cultures are simply inferior. The difference between disliking something people do and disliking a race should be obvious to everyone though. In one you examine an action which is something which can be quantified, assessed and judged as positive or negative in a relatively objective way. Regarding the other there is no statistical evidence for there being any genetic cultural practices. Therefore if you subscribe to it you're an idiot. For example. "female circumcision is disgusting, sexist, brutal and inhuman, the people who practice it, mainly indigenous African cultures, should be condemned". In contrast "blacks are inhuman and should be condemned". Can you see the difference? I have just as little patience for different ethnicities of traveller (they exist, it's not just the Romani). It's the culture that pisses me off, not the skin colour or anything like that. And not all cultures are equal.
Some cultures are inferior.
That's interesting. I wonder if Gypsies think your culture is superior or inferior. I guess Jewish culture was inferior sixty years ago, but now it's superior. Superior to Muslim culture, who was superior than European culture three hundred years ago.
Oh I get it. You culture is superior if you are the strongest, the wealthiest and the most dominant.
Seriously Kwark. You believe this crap? On what criteria do you define "objectively" a culture as being superior. I don't find us superior to anyone, to be honest.
Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
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Funny. So... Racism is not racism if it's right. You are saying, if Jews are indeed greedy, it's not racist, if they are not, it is. Your argument about changing culture is ridiculous. I hate Jews but I'm fine if they converted and don't follow Jewish tradition anymore. That's LOL You are just completely misunderstanding what I'm saying.
What we have:
- Jewish as a culture
- Jewish as an ethnicity
Let's say Jewish culture means stealing, raping and murdering unbelievers. So, the Jewish culture is an inferior one. Nothing racist so far. Now someone comes along and says "All Jewish people, regardless of whether they practice the Jewish culture, are bastards and should be exterminated.". Now that's racism.
In this thread people are saying the gypsy culture is bad. That is completely fine. What would not be fine (and what would be racism) is people saying that people from Romani ethnicity are bad, end of.
Do you get the difference? Now stop screaming RACISM RACISM NAZIS RACISM NAZIS and stop to think about it for a moment.
Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Good lord, you don't actually believe this do you? EVERYTHING could be defended using this line of reasoning. "Serial killers are disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your peaceful ideas." You NEED some sort of moral basis or else you're just floating.
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Yeah, I can see a proof that far right is just as disgusting in Czech Rpublic as it is with Switzerland or France. Well, for us, it's black people and Muslims who are lazy and want to steal your money.
it's not Czech party, it's Slovak (although i would be happy if it be a Czech party)
And your right that the true about gypsies is disgusting, far right is only pointing at it
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On September 28 2011 01:00 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 00:57 PlaGuE_R wrote:On September 28 2011 00:53 Mohdoo wrote:
Can someone elaborate on what exactly a gypsy.. is? I don't get it. I'm having a hard time finding a definition which seems to fit what's being talked about in this thread. a gypsy is so,eone who comes from romania/bulgaria but is actually a different ethnicity, their skin is darker then the romanians/bulgarians. they are a society of thieves, crooks and drug peddlers, they like to live in caravans leeching off of people and robbing them, they will do anything for money and they do not do this out of necessity (gypsie towing caravans with BMW X5 sup) but rather because they like it and are proud of this bullshit crap they pull. there is only one defense agaisnt gypsies, guard dogs. they hate dogs A bit harsh maybe  But you can watch this BBC documentary called "Gypsy Child Thieves" (focuses mainly on gypsies in spain/france/italy). http://www.megavideo.com/?v=HUB1YBODShows some of the problems that people have with gypsies. Very good documentary if you are confused as to why so many people dislike gypsies, explains a lot.
Wow. I just watched the video. I had no idea it could be that bad. Im glad Ive never personally had any problems with them.
I remember a friend of mine told me that he packed his trailer next to a camp of theirs thinking "I guess theyre nice people like everone else. The moment he left his car kids started streaming to his truck to steal.
On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 22:16 vasatko2 wrote:i would like to note this picture about Slovakian political party campaign advert The advert says "Don't feed those who don't want to work" Here you can see a proof that it's a problem all over the Europe Yeah, I can see a proof that far right is just as disgusting in Czech Rpublic as it is with Switzerland or France. Well, for us, it's black people and Muslims who are lazy and want to steal your money. Fun fact, our far-right was saying exactly the same about Polish people and eastern European Jews in the 20's 30's; when they were a minority of immigrant in France. The exact same crap: they don't want to integrate, they are dishonest, they are lazy, etc... Oh, well, I guess Polish people were fine after all. Now it's Arabs. Or Gypsies. I wonder if we will need concentration camps again to remember that this racist crap is maybe not a good idea. Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 21:49 KwarK wrote:On September 28 2011 21:12 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 28 2011 20:15 KwarK wrote:On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote:
saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot. No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism. What a joke. So if I say, for example, that I hate Britons, for whatever reason, say because they are liars and thieves and pedophiles, I can then pretend that I am not a racist because it's not genetic, it's their culture I dislike? Sounds less convincing nuh? It's as dishonest as the people who say that Muslims are the root of all evil in Europe, that they are lazy, they want to invade us, and they are liars etc etc... and then say "Oh we are not racists, it's against Islam and Islamic culture, not against the race". Hating a culture and its people is racism. Like it or not. If someone says that Jews are greedy and liars and that they want to dominate the world, but then say "oh, but it's about Jewish culture, not the race", he is just as antisemitic than someone who hate them on racist theoretical basis. Any kind of hatred towards human group for things they were born with is equally unacceptable, whether it's culture, religion, race, handicap or sex. Now, I know Gypsy musicians who are among the best I have met in my life, play with an incredible virtuosity music from the culture so many people hate without having a clue about; and thinking about them while reading that thread makes me very very sad. It's because of people's attitude and hatred that Gypsies have no chance to integrate, to get a job or to live a honest life. Some cultures are simply inferior. The difference between disliking something people do and disliking a race should be obvious to everyone though. In one you examine an action which is something which can be quantified, assessed and judged as positive or negative in a relatively objective way. Regarding the other there is no statistical evidence for there being any genetic cultural practices. Therefore if you subscribe to it you're an idiot. For example. "female circumcision is disgusting, sexist, brutal and inhuman, the people who practice it, mainly indigenous African cultures, should be condemned". In contrast "blacks are inhuman and should be condemned". Can you see the difference? I have just as little patience for different ethnicities of traveller (they exist, it's not just the Romani). It's the culture that pisses me off, not the skin colour or anything like that. And not all cultures are equal. Some cultures are inferior. That's interesting. I wonder if Gypsies think your culture is superior or inferior. I guess Jewish culture was inferior sixty years ago, but now it's superior. Superior to Muslim culture, who was superior than European culture three hundred years ago. Oh I get it. You culture is superior if you are the strongest, the wealthiest and the most dominant. Seriously Kwark. You believe this crap? On what criteria do you define "objectively" a culture as being superior. I don't find us superior to anyone, to be honest. Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas? Doesn't make any sense.
Did you watch the video ? I was really shocked and I can see why people despise the adults living like that.
http://www.megavideo.com/?v=HUB1YBOD
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On September 28 2011 20:37 mdb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 20:22 Reyis wrote:On September 28 2011 18:34 dakalro wrote:On September 28 2011 10:14 StarBrift wrote:
Can people actually stop reffering to them as "Gypsies"? It's ridiculously racist and not in the slightest even remotely close to what they call themselves / want to be called. Do you people actually use the N word for black people aswell so freely and without thought?
The Romani has a bad rep in sweden aswell but we don't use derogatory names to demean them even if they sometimes to act outside the law (allthough not often so in sweden admittably).
The problem with the logic from east europeans here on the board is that you are blaming one minority group for the huge failure of your entire societal system. As many of you allready mentioned the corruption in the government is a huge problem and without that these problems wouldn't exist in the first place. Granted there are corruption to certain degrees in every government but clearly more so in certain countries and the Balkan countries / the rest of eastern europe does not have a good track record when it comes to democracy.
So how about yopu start focusing on the real problem and support protests against the governments instead of riots against a minority of people that has no influence over the countries fate anyway. You shouldn't be half as mad at criminal Romani as you should be at the goverment that lets it happen.
Just please, stop calling people Gypsies. It's incredibly racist and clearly pointless. It only breeds more hatred. Oh, and your great country was very successful, it deported them back where they came from. GJ, now where would the rest of us deport them? + Show Spoiler +exactly. some countries have deported them back to balkans and no one made any problem regarding that and if any balkan country or any eastern european country tries to deport them to somewhere else then it would have been a major problem.
In Bulgaria, a small example how communist mafia>government>police>gypsie relation can go; you own a car and after some time it gets stolen. oh yes every car in bulgaria got stolen atleast once. you have had a government forced insurance that u have to pay from time to time to the government which gives you the licence aswell, which makes your car registrated. anyway when your car is stolen, you are pretty sure that it is stolen by gypsies. if you go to the police and report it, they will tell you it will take some time to find it if we can even. your government pays the insurance where that money goes to the police because as soon as you receive the government insurance, police appears with your car lol. same with car example, many stolen goods are actually tracked and controlled by the police which are partners in crime with gypsies. but they cant do anything because government always acts the blind-deaf monkey thanks to the mafia behind it. you cant believe how eastern europe is corrupt as hell.
In Turkey, when todays liberal-conservative government got elected at 2002, they have offered gypsies one last chance to live like any other citizen, %99 of the gypsies yet again continued to do what they do. as a result, they have been deported to bulgaria/greece. goverment demolished their trash huts and built proper housing there and now the %1 of the remaining is living there, paying taxes and doing no crime at all.
In Serbia, current power in the government is the democratic party. Irony is that them being democrats, there is no proper democratic constitution. there are some good articles within regarding human rights but still there are other ridiculous articles such as the president is chief of the army at the same time. anyway serbia has been accepting many bulgarians to the country recently, any bulgarians can confirm that aswell here and all the reason was how those bulgarians are fleeing to serbia because of bulgarian mega corrupt government. serbian government is corrupt aswell but atleast there is no major gypsie leaders who can control lots of power but still the gypsies in serbia are living the same way as any other in the region. but if serbia dont deport gypsies out it is very soon that serbia will get to the same level as bulgarians and romanians regarding the gypsie issue, amount of problems are very close to it anyway.
while In Croatia, government have followed a similar way such as some western european countries and turkey regarding gypsies and deported big amount of them to neighbours where they believe they came from and having tensions with the living minorty. not so much ago the croat government wanted to burn down, yes literally burn down with torches, their trash village because they are really not wanted there.
i can go in more details in all eastern european countries regarding what both sides and especially governments are doing regarding the issue. yet again i say, it is not racism. it is pure nationalism since gypsies refuse to accept your nationality and refuse your government, refuse the countries and the borders in the whole eastern europe. comparing gypsies to the blacks in america is also very stupid. no one is putting gypsies to slavery in Europe. they have same rights as the people who they live with. hell even have extra rights because of being minorities.
Europeans in this thread are posting with huge hate because they want justice, not because they hate their dark brown skin and dark hair. They want justice that they dont want intruders and criminals to live with double standarts while they have to pay taxes so the money goes to these gypsies kids, local people have to tolerate them because they are humans regardless of how big crimes they are doing on the society. they want justice because they dont want their kids or even themselves to be pulled in by force to the prostitution, armed robberies and assaults, drug sellers and organ mafias. they want justice because where they live the local companies like from groceries, bars to small government funded services like bus transportation and many more stuff that is suffering from the gypsies barbaric way of living but still tolerating their crimes and asking a stagnant government to sort this issue with patiently for years.
so people who are shitting about racism, just zip it and let the europeans ask for their justice. because they rightfully deserve it to the every drop. Thank you for this post, Reyis. May I ask where are you from?
multi-national, but to put it right i am american although america doesnt love me :p
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On September 28 2011 22:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 21:20 Thorakh wrote:Hating a culture and its people is racism. Like it or not. If someone says that Jews are greedy and liars and that they want to dominate the world, but then say "oh, but it's about Jewish culture, not the race", he is just as antisemitic than someone who hate them on racist theoretical basis. Any kind of hatred towards human group for things they were born with is equally unacceptable, whether it's culture, religion, race, handicap or sex. But if Jews ARE greedy and liars then that is a valid reason to label their culture as bad. If gypsy culture means stealing, begging and other kinds of shady things that means gypsy culture is bad. There is NOTHING racist about that. It becomes racist when you discriminate against functioning Roma people. And just so you know, you aren't born with a culture, you are born in a culture. You can change your culture but not your skin color. Therefore hatred against a culture is perfectly acceptable if the reasons for it are valid. Now, I know Gypsy musicians who are among the best I have met in my life, play with an incredible virtuosity music from the culture so many people hate without having a clue about; and thinking about them while reading that thread makes me very very sad. It's because of people's attitude and hatred that Gypsies have no chance to integrate, to get a job or to live a honest life. According to all the Eastern Europeans gypsies are being given a chance but they don't take it. And besides, of course there are Roma people who are great human beings. That's why it's not racism, but hate against a culture (which may or may not be justified, but judging from the responses of Eastern Europeans it seems justified). Funny. So... Racism is not racism if it's right. You are saying, if Jews are indeed greedy, it's not racist, if they are not, it is. Your argument about changing culture is ridiculous. I hate Jews but I'm fine if they converted and don't follow Jewish tradition anymore. That's LOL I give you another interpretation of what you are saying, the way I hear it: racists always claim they are not racists, that they just state facts. That's the opinion of every racist in the world. People who pretend to "just hate a culture" are the most conventional and mainstream racists. As I said earlier, I know fantastic Gypsy musicians. Nobody is more into the Gypsy culture than them. And, surprise! They don't steal, they are not pedophile and they are very loyal. Oh, wait, they are not uber-poor because they managed to get a job. Racism => Exclusion => Poverty + Low Education level => Criminality. What about that?
You are right about this but this is not the situation with the Gipsys(ciganos) they are more like this:
Low education level (because they don't allow their kids to go to school) + Poverty (because they don't work) - Social subsidies (given to them to help them integrate+houses(Portugal atleast) = remain uneducated -> exclusion + crime = racism
get the diference??
Ricardo Quaresma(Sporting, Porto, Barcelona, Inter, Chelsea) is a cigano(gipsy) footballer of portuguese romani fathers and his father explored him and his brother(who was better then him btw) into football! So here is a cigano that works and has a good talent.
Do you think he won't put his children to school? Of course he will because he understants that his lifestyle his better for his children then living on street begging for money.
This is not against romani people that try and improve their lifes.. This is against the romani people that follow the gipsy way of not working, not getting a education, commiting crimes etc..
GET IT?
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I am not a communist at all, but let me tell you. There was no problem with gypsies during communism, they could not do whatever the fuck they wanted and they had respect for other people and lived in a harmony with them, because they knew nobody would fuck around with them. Nowadays with all our liberties and rights - they became what they are nowadays. They are untouchable and do whatever they want and if they get hurt, they say it's a racism. I know just a few of them who live normal life, have regular job and their neighbours actually like them and respect them.
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On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
You're arguing that no culture can be condemned morally by any other.
That is not good logic.
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on the etymology arguments a page or so back, the greek word for gypsy is tsigganos (τσιγγάνος) or more properly athigganos (αθίγγανος) and it actually means untouchable
the word was coined during the byzantium era to describe members of a religious cult
there is another word, giftos (γύφτος) which refers to the same people and owes its etymology to egypt, as apparently some gypsies travelled from egypt to byzantium (giftos (γύφτος -- aigiptios (αιγύπτιος) )
edit: the english and spanish words for gypsy derive from giftos and egypt in general, while the french and german words are more closely related to tsigganos instead
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I must say it saddens me greatly to find that I actually agree with the majority of people posting concerns about the general Roma culture. Even in my home country of Norway, we have seen an explosion of roma drifters in our cities. They are generally very aggressive beggars and stalk ATM machines to steal from whoever is trying to withdraw cash. The public debate has been going on for a few years about how to deal with the issues. The main problem,however, is that these people have no intererest in becoming citizens of our nation and are here without any permit or passports, making prosecutions hard. Some cities have even made public begging against the law! I admit that I am totally clueless to how we can solve this problem. They won`t stay in one place, the kids don`t go to school,and they refuse to work. How can we effectivly combat this undoubtably unhealthy lifestyle?
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Its really easy to hate on gypsies. Really Really easy.
However, that being said. When I used to live in Switzerland we lived near the boarder with France. Just across the boarder were camps that the gypsies used to use 3-4 times a year when they migrated around. During the time when they were camping there they would send their underage kids e.g. 12-14 years old across the boarder at night on scooters to break into and steal from houses in Switzerland. Some people got hurt resisting and stuff, getting stabbed with a knife or a screwdriver (what they were using to break into places). We have had break-in attempts at my house and the house next-door to me had 3 motorcycles stolen at night by these people.
Anyone who is here to defend people that steal and murder obviously hasn't been hassled, broken into, stabbed or murdered yet.. That being said I am all supporting of people and their lifestyles just when someone's lifestyle can directly negatively impact someone else's then there is a problem in my eyes.
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EPT
