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Stop the country bashing, and the conspiracy theories or bans will start to be handed out. |
On September 10 2011 05:43 Popss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 05:25 XeliN wrote:
One of the real tragedies of /11 and the subsequent effects is how it has been used to evoke fear, anger, and strip away, in America in particular, but it resonates throughout Europe to a lessoned extent, our values and liberty.
War has been waged, torture justified and practised, people held without trial for years at a time, rights to privacy carved down. As a result of a small group of extremeists an entire religion, and culture has been villainised to the point where "muslim" "islamic" "arab" "middle-eastern" have gone from descriptions to accusations.
Thousands of innocent Americans were murdered by fanatics on 9/11. Tens of thousands more innocent citizens have been killed, tortured, wounded, lost members of their family, their homes, their livelihoods as a result of America's, and the Wests response to that event.
Although that said Modern Warfare 2 is a super fun cool game, so its swings and roundabouts i guess... Simply have to agree 100% on this. In the past I always held the U.S. as one of the most principled countries on liberty and rights. Unfortunately the actions taken after 9/11 has changed that picture so much for me I would now rank them very low on those issues in comparison with the rest of western world. It's just sad as fuck really, you're supposed to be the good guys, so act like it. Fight terrorists but fight them correct.
Sounds like you both are way too invested in the media. Don't believe everything you hear.
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On September 10 2011 07:11 magnaflow wrote:
I wouldn't worry. I'm sure its the government blowing smoke up people asses
Even if the threat was legitimate which I highly doubt it is. If your going to worry about death and such, maybe you could eat right (not saying that you don't in particular but the US as a whole.) . Heart Disease kills SOOO many more people than fucking terrorism.
A good line from the bible. Even if you believe god or you don' t
" Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death (or through the darkest valley),
I will fear no evil.."
Terrorism is a joke. I'd laugh at the a person trying / going to kill me. Call them a "sick" person. It is truly disgusting how people are to kill one another over beliefs. That includes the US and these so called terrorists.
"I cannot teach you violence, as I do not myself believe in it. I can only teach you not to bow your heads before any one even at the cost of your life."
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On September 10 2011 07:16 hypercube wrote:
Tens of thousands of people die in traffic accidents every year. Do you support mandatory alcohol detectors in cars and systems that prevent them from going faster than the speed limit?
These are arguably less drastic measures than reading email or airport patdowns, cost a fraction of what the US spends on counter-terrorism every year and would save tens of thousands of lives every year.
I'm sorry, I just don't see how you can equate the two instances. Yes more people die in traffic accidents. More people die in traffic accidents yearly than died at Pearl Harbor, does that mean we should have spent our money fighting bad drivers over fighting back against Japan in WW2?
If you let one attack go unpunished, it emboldens these fanatics to do more.
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On September 10 2011 07:22 Ryfje wrote:
This is such bs propaganda, I can't believe some people actually for one read news from ABC, It's all hyped up stories, when is security never on "watch", the CIA has all the information they need and more, and they are the real people to worry about irregardless. That being said, I hope nothing bad happens on september 11th, although nobody tends to remember the Chile 1973 9/11 where America committed acts as bad/worse to the chilean people/president, oh not to mention stealing native land and committing genocide before that and controlling the world currently via colonization. My two cents, peace.
Look who's talking 
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On September 10 2011 07:22 Ryfje wrote:
oh not to mention stealing native land and committing genocide before that and controlling the world currently via colonization. My two cents, peace.
If people held grudges against nations for every atrocity such as that the UK would have no ally on the planet. Did you forget about the whole British Empire? You must be bad because your ancestors did evil things.
See how weak that argument is?
The US has done shitty things yea, but I think the good has outweighed the bad by a fair margin.
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On September 10 2011 07:32 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 07:22 Ryfje wrote:
This is such bs propaganda, I can't believe some people actually for one read news from ABC, It's all hyped up stories, when is security never on "watch", the CIA has all the information they need and more, and they are the real people to worry about irregardless. That being said, I hope nothing bad happens on september 11th, although nobody tends to remember the Chile 1973 9/11 where America committed acts as bad/worse to the chilean people/president, oh not to mention stealing native land and committing genocide before that and controlling the world currently via colonization. My two cents, peace. Look who's talking
There's a difference between what the UK govt. did 100+ years ago, and what the US govt. does to this day.
That said, i can also say "Look who's talking" and give you the history of Austro-Hungary and the Hapsburgs. Just saying.
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Why is it that whenever anything controversial is said regarding america(ns) certain people have to poke a stick? It's almost as if some of you condone terrorists killing innocent civilians. We do not provoke, we retaliate with force, and being the big jerks that we are, after we make you pay for your horrible actions, we rebuild your country and make it 20x better than it was before.
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On September 10 2011 07:31 Craze wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 07:16 hypercube wrote:
Tens of thousands of people die in traffic accidents every year. Do you support mandatory alcohol detectors in cars and systems that prevent them from going faster than the speed limit?
These are arguably less drastic measures than reading email or airport patdowns, cost a fraction of what the US spends on counter-terrorism every year and would save tens of thousands of lives every year. I'm sorry, I just don't see how you can equate the two instances. Yes more people die in traffic accidents. More people die in traffic accidents yearly than died at Pearl Harbor, does that mean we should have spent our money fighting bad drivers over fighting back against Japan in WW2? If you let one attack go unpunished, it emboldens these fanatics to do more.
I think he's implying that we should be less concerned about airport security, as there are far worse threats.
Airplane flights are less dangerous than the car rides to the airport. The problem is people are stupid and the worse the accident, the more we tend to fear/react to them. Less people die per car accident vs plane, but the car accidents are so common that they compensate.
I'm probably being unreasonable though. Planes are 12 ton flying hunks of metal accelerated by massive jet engines. Hijacking one is more of a danger to non-passengers as evidenced by 9-11.
So, in away, there is more of a reason to crack down on drunk drivers and safety regulations for cars, as opposed to airport security. But that's not entirely true.
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On September 10 2011 07:07 Popss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 06:49 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On September 10 2011 06:41 Popss wrote:On September 10 2011 06:08 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On September 10 2011 05:43 Popss wrote:
It's just sad as fuck really, you're supposed to be the good guys, so act like it.
That's a pretty naive way to look at it. You're making the generalization mistake as well. I would but if I was put in the same position except as a head of state and my option is to order this individual to torture this person to save 1,000 lives, would I do it? No, I need to find another way to protect those lives as if one of the objectives of my theoretical state is to respect human rights that objective doesn't take precedence over the objective to protect my citizens. You can't expect people to act this principled but a state has to. The same argument can be applied to an individual who is obligated not to violate the rights of others and avoid causing harm, unless you don't believe individuals have such obligations . Going through with it or not definitely depends on your political and ethical/moral beliefs though for both cases. I don't think it would be any harder to argue that there is nothing wrong with expecting people to act as principled as a state, or the other way around, than it would be to argue that you can't. I believe individual have such obligations, but I don't expect them to follow them to such extremes as I would expect states to. And you're right it depends on your political, ethical and moral beliefs. Just I thought the U.S. had certain beliefs about for example human rights that meant they would never do many of the things they did in fact do in the "war on terror". My point is simply that for me and many others the view on America has unfortunately changed for the worse over the last 10 years. And I find that sad because it all started with these scum of the earth murdering 3,000 innocent civilians.
A government, which is what you mean when you say "US" as you said earlier, is going to have varying beliefs depending on which government employees work for it, which for the US, change every year.
Once again, this is my opinion, but I just think it's naive to expect more from a government than you would the people working for it as if it's some higher entity than the individual parts that compose it.
Not to mention, it's not like everyone who did those things thought what they were doing was wrong and did them anyways. I'm sure of the few people who did said things thought they were doing the right thing (even if they weren't).
I agree with your overall point though, the foreign image of America has definitely declined in the past 10 years.
On September 10 2011 07:02 Destro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 06:50 Kaitlin wrote:On September 10 2011 06:44 Thrasymachus725 wrote:
What the US has done has done as a result of 9/11 is nothing short of barbaric. If you ask me, they have far surpassed the horrific event on 9/11 with their revenge. Enjoy living with your fear. Really ? If this doesn't deserve a ban, I don't know what does. he deserves a ban because he has an alternate opinion to you? I don't see how that is fair.
I don't know if he deserves a ban for it or not, but I highly doubt that's his reasoning for thinking he did. He bolded one part of it for a reason.
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On September 10 2011 07:31 Craze wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 07:16 hypercube wrote:
Tens of thousands of people die in traffic accidents every year. Do you support mandatory alcohol detectors in cars and systems that prevent them from going faster than the speed limit?
These are arguably less drastic measures than reading email or airport patdowns, cost a fraction of what the US spends on counter-terrorism every year and would save tens of thousands of lives every year. I'm sorry, I just don't see how you can equate the two instances. Yes more people die in traffic accidents. More people die in traffic accidents yearly than died at Pearl Harbor, does that mean we should have spent our money fighting bad drivers over fighting back against Japan in WW2? If you let one attack go unpunished, it emboldens these fanatics to do more.
As they say death is the great equalizer. It doesn't matter how it happened, you're just as dead either way. If your concern is saving lives I don't see how you can be against these measures. Do you hate freedom???
I kinda get what you're saying with Pearl Harbor. If you ignore terrorism it can become a huge problem, while traffic accidents will mostly stay the same or decline even if you leave them alone. But the real question is whether the last dollar you spent on counter-terrorism would have saved more lives if it was spent on traffic safety. And I think the question is quite clearly yes.
Plus there's a way to do this without spending any money on it. Get a ticket for speeding or DUI, lose your licence until you have one of these systems installed at your own cost. Let the speeder and drunken-driver terrorists pay for the fight
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On September 10 2011 07:40 RaFeStaR wrote:
Why is it that whenever anything controversial is said regarding america(ns) certain people have to poke a stick? It's almost as if some of you condone terrorists killing innocent civilians. We do not provoke, we retaliate with force, and being the big jerks that we are, after we make you pay for your horrible actions, we rebuild your country and make it 20x better than it was before.
Iraq is about 50x worse than it was in 1991 lol. When will it be 20x better than it was in 1991? In a century?
Also, the self-righteousness and jingoism in your post is quite mind-numbing.
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On September 10 2011 07:38 Craze wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 07:22 Ryfje wrote:
oh not to mention stealing native land and committing genocide before that and controlling the world currently via colonization. My two cents, peace. If people held grudges against nations for every atrocity such as that the UK would have no ally on the planet. Did you forget about the whole British Empire? You must be bad because your ancestors did evil things. See how weak that argument is? The US has done shitty things yea, but I think the good has outweighed the bad by a fair margin.
We are holding grudges against "Terrorists' and the countries that hold these. Are they born bad people?... The media portrays it that way.
Yep truly killing THOUSANDS of innocent or iragi's and afgani's is truly outweighed because we help are so free back here at home by doing so. Thats all so fucking subjective, and I believe if you think/(committing the act itself) that killing another human being, you are mentally sick and a psychopath. No matter the reason.
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I live in DC, and this makes me pretty nervous,  why can't people be peaceful?
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It's pathetic how many people have crawled out of their dark corners to begin mastrubating to this horrible event. Ooh yeah baby, you know how i like my anti-Americanism, drenched in blood.
It only takes a few bad seeds to ruin any discussion. Just take a look at the Libya thread. Maybe 3-4 idiots that turned the entire topic to shit. Isn't gonna take long before we get all those pro-science youtube clips about how if you enlarge the pictures you can see Bush himself setting the towers on fire.
Ooh yeah and im the crazy one because i trust TEH MEDIA. It's much better to build a reality based on nothing but your own speculation and that thing your friend said when you were high.
Yeah we get it, you hate America, you hate everything America stands for even though the clothes you wear, the internet you are using and that music you like so much are all just transported from the American culture to the rest of the world.
But how about this? How about you let these 3000 people rest in piece? How about you don't make fun of their deaths because you feel the need to place yourself in the center of some world wide Illuminati conspiracy?
Next week the US is gonna announce something silly and you can jump on that. Maybe even tommorow. But if you have an ounce of decency in you, leave your childish conspiracy stories out of this topic and stop making fun of 3000 dead people for little other reason then being bored.
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On September 10 2011 07:40 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 07:32 hypercube wrote:On September 10 2011 07:22 Ryfje wrote:
This is such bs propaganda, I can't believe some people actually for one read news from ABC, It's all hyped up stories, when is security never on "watch", the CIA has all the information they need and more, and they are the real people to worry about irregardless. That being said, I hope nothing bad happens on september 11th, although nobody tends to remember the Chile 1973 9/11 where America committed acts as bad/worse to the chilean people/president, oh not to mention stealing native land and committing genocide before that and controlling the world currently via colonization. My two cents, peace. Look who's talking There's a difference between what the UK govt. did 100+ years ago, and what the US govt. does to this day. That said, i can also say "Look who's talking" and give you the history of Austro-Hungary and the Hapsburgs. Just saying.
I know, but he also brought native Americans so I thought 19th century was fair game.
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On September 10 2011 07:22 Ryfje wrote:
This is such bs propaganda, I can't believe some people actually for one read news from ABC, It's all hyped up stories, when is security never on "watch", the CIA has all the information they need and more, and they are the real people to worry about irregardless. That being said, I hope nothing bad happens on september 11th, although nobody tends to remember the Chile 1973 9/11 where America committed acts as bad/worse to the chilean people/president, oh not to mention stealing native land and committing genocide before that and controlling the world currently via colonization. My two cents, peace.
Hey man, I can totally play the Blame Game. How about the all the Indians or Chinese that you fucked over? Especially when your great, great grandparents probably had nothing to do with slave trading or forcing the Chinese to buy opium or making Indians 2nd class citizens in their own country. However, since your an Englishman I'm going to mindlessly lump all of you together and make you responsible for all the shit that your ancestors probably never did.
I'm sure my great, great grandparents had plenty of African slaves on their tiny piece of shit farms in Romania and Poland. Especially when it was so easy to buy and house slaves when you weren't a filthy rich plantation owner.
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On September 10 2011 07:41 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 07:40 RaFeStaR wrote:
Why is it that whenever anything controversial is said regarding america(ns) certain people have to poke a stick? It's almost as if some of you condone terrorists killing innocent civilians. We do not provoke, we retaliate with force, and being the big jerks that we are, after we make you pay for your horrible actions, we rebuild your country and make it 20x better than it was before. Iraq is about 50x worse than it was in 1991 lol. When will it be 20x better than it was in 1991? In a century? Also, the self-righteousness and in your post is quite mind-numbing.
How is it worse? Having a country rebuilt with principles and security is worse? Also, shout jingoism all you want, but truth is truth.
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On September 10 2011 07:41 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 07:40 RaFeStaR wrote:
Why is it that whenever anything controversial is said regarding america(ns) certain people have to poke a stick? It's almost as if some of you condone terrorists killing innocent civilians. We do not provoke, we retaliate with force, and being the big jerks that we are, after we make you pay for your horrible actions, we rebuild your country and make it 20x better than it was before. Iraq is about 50x worse than it was in 1991 lol. When will it be 20x better than it was in 1991? In a century? Also, the self-righteousness and jingoism in your post is quite mind-numbing.
ya know i hear this alot from anti-war folks. i'd love it if you backed it up with stats, or perhaps you have been overseeing the war in iraq yourself? or are you in a government position over there? i'm just wondering how you qualify it being 50 times worse than 1991
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On September 10 2011 07:46 zalz wrote:
It's pathetic how many people have crawled out of their dark corners to begin mastrubating to this horrible event. Ooh yeah baby, you know how i like my anti-Americanism, drenched in blood.
It only takes a few bad seeds to ruin any discussion. Just take a look at the Libya thread. Maybe 3-4 idiots that turned the entire topic to shit. Isn't gonna take long before we get all those pro-science youtube clips about how if you enlarge the pictures you can see Bush himself setting the towers on fire.
Ooh yeah and im the crazy one because i trust TEH MEDIA. It's much better to build a reality based on nothing but your own speculation and that thing your friend said when you were high.
Yeah we get it, you hate America, you hate everything America stands for even though the clothes you wear, the internet you are using and that music you like so much are all just transported from the American culture to the rest of the world.
But how about this? How about you let these 3000 people rest in piece? How about you don't make fun of their deaths because you feel the need to place yourself in the center of some world wide Illuminati conspiracy?
Next week the US is gonna announce something silly and you can jump on that. Maybe even tommorow. But if you have an ounce of decency in you, leave your childish conspiracy stories out of this topic and stop making fun of 3000 dead people for little other reason then being bored.
Thank you, kind sir.
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EPT
