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On August 03 2011 08:30 Kaitlin wrote:
This is prostitution, not that I think it should be illegal, but it is. Further, who thinks these girls are going to stop putting out for $$ when the loans are paid off ? Are they then going to take some office job when they could just continue making significantly more $$ prostituting themselves ? College loans are a red herring. These girls are simply learning they can make more $$ selling themselves than by any other means.
Well, if they're going to top schools, it shouldn't be too difficult in a decade to get a job that pays more than anything but the highest-end prostitution. When we're out of this recession.
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On August 03 2011 08:24 IAttackYou wrote:
This site honestly should be shut down. It is immoral to prey on the poor and this is nothing short of prostitution.
The website itself doesn't prey on anything.
It simply offer the chance for poor college students to work. One may even say that it is services like this that create new jobs in this economy. This website create more jobs than congress sitting on their lazy asses doing nothing.
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On August 03 2011 08:19 acker wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 08:10 Derez wrote:
First of all: A minimum wage job (in holland) pays more then prostitution. Their hourly rate is higher, but they lose significant amounts because they average about 2 customers a day and have to pay for their 'overhead costs' (space, 'organisation') on top of that. I'm fairly certain this depends on the prostitute. Some go for a lot of money, some don't. This also applies to foreign prostitutes. Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 08:10 Derez wrote:
Secondly: Women in prostitution (in holland) can't actually compete for minimum wage jobs. Even getting a minimum wage job requires certain skills, like speaking the language and being mentally able of showing up for work every day (which is hard when you're addicted to booze or drugs, which it is estimated that over half of them are, not just a tenth). If they can't compete for minimum-wage jobs, then the alternative is even worse. The half statistic is independently unverified, which is why I'm using the 10% one. Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 08:10 Derez wrote:
Thirdly: The women working as prostitutes aren't in the same position as your normal 'average joe'. If I loose my job, I'll collect social security and while I'll have to cut back on everything, in the grand scheme of things, I'll be relatively comfortable and I won't be on the streets. You can't make the same argument for the ukrainians/nigerians/thais currently standing behind the windows in Amsterdam. Once again, the alternative is even worse. If they can't even make money at minimum wage and have no safety net... Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 08:10 Derez wrote:
And keep in mind that the red light district is actually the 'highlight' of dutch, legalized, prostitution. The other part of it is the women in my hometown standing around an official hooker parking lot in the middle of nowhere, or those working in an extremely shady club downtown. It's all legal, and it being legal is better then it being illegal, but it's still sad as fuck.
These women are choosing a 'job' that offers them better opportunities then they would have had in their home countries, that's true, but that reflects more on the dire conditions part of this world lives in then on the actual merits of prostitution. If it wasn't better and they weren't coerced, most of them wouldn't be in the Netherlands. I do agree it's sad, though. Guess it's part of your "least harm" doctrine, just like drugs... Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 08:14 Bartuc wrote:
Yeah of course, if they make such a choice the damage is the lesser of two evils. But I think if I would have such a massive debt that either I have to choose between robing a bank and potentially ending up in jail or spending 30 minutes with an 80 year old guy, that doesn't make the end result any less shitty/detrimental so to say ;-) The action you choose is what you consider the lesser evil, neither evil is identical.
The point is this: Prostitution, at it's most common level, is the result of circumstances, where the most viable choice becomes selling your body for peanuts, whether it's in your own country or in another. It's the result of society failing a group of people (or the 'global community failing entire countries), and we should be offering other, better options then that, which I'd say is the general consensus in dutch politics. The fact that we regulate it doesn't mean that we think it's a good thing or anything like that, no matter how the international press reports on it.
The same argument can be made in this case. If tuition fees are at a point where your future job earnings can't cover them anymore, something is wrong in the system as a whole. I'm not questioning the decision individuals make in order to get by, I'm questioning the system as a whole. If college graduates feel the need to sell themselves off (which most of them obviously would prefer not to), that's a major signal that the system is failing entirely.
You're supposed to be going to college in order to get a good job, not to spend 4 years of good times and then being forced into this. I honestly think we pretty much agree on most of this to be honest ;p.
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On August 03 2011 08:34 Derez wrote:
The point is this: Prostitution, at it's most common level, is the result of circumstances, where the most viable choice becomes selling your body for peanuts, whether it's in your own country or in another. It's the result of society failing a group of people (or the 'global community failing entire countries), and we should be offering other, better options then that, which I'd say is the general consensus in dutch politics. The fact that we regulate it doesn't mean that we think it's a good thing or anything like that, no matter how the international press reports on it.
The same argument can be made in this case. If tuition fees are at a point where your future job earnings can't cover them anymore, something is wrong in the system as a whole. I'm not questioning the decision individuals make in order to get by, I'm questioning the system as a whole. If college graduates feel the need to sell themselves off (which most of them obviously would prefer not to), that's a major signal that the system is failing entirely.
You're supposed to be going to college in order to get a good job, not to spend 4 years of good times and then being forced into this. I honestly think we pretty much agree on most of this to be honest ;p.
Oh, there is no doubt that tuition fees in the states are extremely overpriced, but I think you give these girls (strictly the ones in this article) too much credit. They are in this situation because of their own fault, they either accumulated tons of debt by running up their credit cards with unnecessary things like smart phone bills (the number of girls that have blackberry's and can't afford to have them is ridiculously high) or they made a poor investment when entering into college. That being said, while times are rough, these tuition fees are by no means horrible enough for you to have to prostitute yourself (this is of course going under the assumption that prostitution is literally the last resort). Most of the girls are simply doing this as it is a quick and easy way out, the old men are literally sugar daddy's, they are not giving money to some poor girl who has nothing to eat, they are funding the irresponsible lifestyle some of these girls possess.
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On August 03 2011 08:34 Derez wrote:
The point is this: Prostitution, at it's most common level, is the result of circumstances, where the most viable choice becomes selling your body for peanuts, whether it's in your own country or in another. It's the result of society failing a group of people, and we should be offering other, better options then that, which I'd say is the general consensus in dutch politics. The fact that we regulate it doesn't mean that we think it's a good thing or anything like that, no matter how the international press reports on it.
You're still grouping all prostitution together, from debt-constrained to immigrant to completely uncoerced. I agree that you'd be far better off with state-paid assimilation/ESL classes for immigrants and there's plenty of things you could do to make prostitution by immigrants due to a lack of better options less attractive. However, to call all prostitution a "societal failing", however, is an individual moral issue, not a societal one.
On August 03 2011 08:34 Derez wrote:
The same argument can be made in this case. If tuition fees are at a point where your future job earnings can't cover them anymore, something is wrong in the system as a whole. I'm not questioning the decision individuals make in order to get by, I'm questioning the system as a whole. If college graduates feel the need to sell themselves off (which most of them obviously would prefer not to), that's a major signal that the system is failing entirely.
The example here is too extreme, however. They do have options like attending universities with lower tuition. Their choice reflects that they consider this the best alternative, not that society itself is failing. Just because they'd prefer not to doesn't mean that they don't have options, or that it's necessarily a societal failure. Not all prostitution is alike...
Morally, in terms of "force", there's nothing different about this than college girls working at strip bars or fast food restaurants to pay off college debt. No one wants to, but they consider it necessary, and it isn't societal failure. This gives people more options if they want to attend higher-priced colleges, and is strictly voluntary.
...well, I suppose the recession is a societal failure, but everyone missed that.
Not that I'd be opposed to more government scholarships or subsidies to higher education in exchange for higher taxes. Seriously, having to work at something that you'll probably never be doing again after college is bullshit on many levels, including future productivity.
On August 03 2011 08:34 Derez wrote:
You're supposed to be going to college in order to get a good job, not to spend 4 years of good times and then being forced into this. I honestly think we pretty much agree on most of this to be honest ;p.
They'll probably get a good job at the end of it all. If they didn't think they were going to get a good job, they wouldn't be doing this. We do agree on most of it, definitely.
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The fact that people actually think this is all right is pretty sad. 
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On August 03 2011 08:39 MrDudeMan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 08:34 Derez wrote:
The point is this: Prostitution, at it's most common level, is the result of circumstances, where the most viable choice becomes selling your body for peanuts, whether it's in your own country or in another. It's the result of society failing a group of people (or the 'global community failing entire countries), and we should be offering other, better options then that, which I'd say is the general consensus in dutch politics. The fact that we regulate it doesn't mean that we think it's a good thing or anything like that, no matter how the international press reports on it.
The same argument can be made in this case. If tuition fees are at a point where your future job earnings can't cover them anymore, something is wrong in the system as a whole. I'm not questioning the decision individuals make in order to get by, I'm questioning the system as a whole. If college graduates feel the need to sell themselves off (which most of them obviously would prefer not to), that's a major signal that the system is failing entirely.
You're supposed to be going to college in order to get a good job, not to spend 4 years of good times and then being forced into this. I honestly think we pretty much agree on most of this to be honest ;p.
Oh, there is no doubt that tuition fees in the states are extremely overpriced, but I think you give these girls (strictly the ones in this article) too much credit. They are in this situation because of their own fault, they either accumulated tons of debt by running up their credit cards with unnecessary things like smart phone bills (the number of girls that have blackberry's and can't afford to have them is ridiculously high) or they made a poor investment when entering into college. That being said, while times are rough, these tuition fees are by no means horrible enough for you to have to prostitute yourself (this is of course going under the assumption that prostitution is literally the last resort). Most of the girls are simply doing this as it is a quick and easy way out, the old men are literally sugar daddy's, they are not giving money to some poor girl who has nothing to eat, they are funding the irresponsible lifestyle some of these girls possess.
That's undoubtedly true, but it's part of bigger societal issues. It's a combination of several problems:
1) Overpriced tuitions.
2) Societal acceptance of running crazy debts.
3) The dimishing 'value' associated with sleeping with someone. (rise of the one night stand etc.)
4) Economic downturn, hard to get a job
I'd say that at least the first 3 things are issues that are a problem in our current society at large, not only in the USA, and that this is just the implication of them for the recently graduated. Obviously the girls doing this made poor choices, it's just that I wish they never had to face the choice in the first place. It's not 'just' college girls making poor choices (guys also), it's society encouraging them to make the wrong choices in the first place.
Yes, you can avoid having to do this entirely. And yes, some of the women doing this choose this option too easily. But the fact that apparantly so many of them are doing it has to mean something.
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The topics discussed in the article are morally questionable for sure. But it is all relative... so there is nothing, IMO, to suggest that the process is fundamentally wrong from a moral perspective (again, this depends on your personal views regarding sex, religious affiliation, moral upbringing, etc.). Nothing has been done legally about it yet... so presumably the legal system has deemed it appropriate, since you can't hold the website responsible for what takes place in real life between the two parties involved in the "arrangement".
But if the question is, are these women hookers/whores/sluts/prostitutes?... then the answer to that is an unquestionable "yes". If they aren't, then there must be newly accepted definitions of those words that I have not yet come across. The difference is only that this is prostitution at an individual, more personal level... where these women aren't being hired by a pimp who organizes and monitors the service. Without doubt though, the services these "sugar babies" plan to provide to their "sugar daddies" is identical to the services that "professional" prostitutes provide. However, I can see how these "sugar babies" may be more enjoyable for "sugar daddies" to spend their time with... since these girls aren't whores professionally and so the relationship that they may develop with their "sugar daddies" may not be as mundane/lame/meaningless as the type you would get from an escort service or a pimp.
A "professional" prostitute is more likely to want to get paid for sex ASAP... whereas these "sugar babies" are willing to bask in the richness of their "sugar daddies" and enjoy the dates and other wealthy excursions that these old men are wiling to provide to them, since they know that they will most likely never be able to experience that life-style. Plus, these "sugar babies" are probably more likely to end up having meaningful/intelligent discussions with their "sugar daddies", something that "professional prostitutes" aren't interested in doing... this is probably another reason why rich old men would want to seek relationships with these types of heavily in-debt college girls compared to "real" prostitutes"
Just my two cents... But interesting article overall and definitely a relevant one in today's economic situation and struggle.
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On August 03 2011 08:54 Derez wrote:
That's undoubtedly true, but it's part of bigger societal issues. It's a combination of several problems:
1) Overpriced tuitions.
2) Societal acceptance of running crazy debts.
3) The dimishing 'value' associated with sleeping with someone.
4) Economic downturn, hard to get a job
I'd say that at least the first 3 things are issues that are a problem in our current society at large, not only in the USA, and that this is just the implication of them for the recently graduated. Obviously the girls doing this made poor choices, it's just that I wish they never had to face the choice in the first place. It's not 'just' college girls making poor choices (guys also), it's society encouraging them to make the wrong choices in the first place.
Overpriced tuition is definitely a big concern. Probably the biggest concern for our future performance as a nation. It's extremely difficult to see how we'd get people to accept higher taxes in exchange for larger education subsidies, though; just look at any econ thread on this forum. America is crazy and I don't see the crazy going down any time soon. Hell, I've just stated something that's incredibly controversial in America and might attract the black hole of education.
Alternatively, we could reform the education system, but this would die even faster in Congress.
The acceptable level of debt accumulated really depends on the utility you get out of the debt; as long as you get out more than you pay in interest, it's good to run up debt. Generally. This is certainly not true for all circumstances, and I'm not a finance major.
Three is blatant individual moralizing, to list this as a "problem of society" is absurd.
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On August 03 2011 08:24 IAttackYou wrote:
This site honestly should be shut down. It is immoral to prey on the poor and this is nothing short of prostitution.
Preying on the poor? So if I pay you handsomely for a job that you agree to do I am "preying" on you?
Or is it "preying" simply because it is something which one doesn't want to do but has to due to his or her circumstances? According to that definition everyone who has a contract to do work is being preyed upon. Everyone who has a second job waiting tables to pay his mortgage/rent is an innocent little bunny.
No one is forcing these kids to leverage their entire financial futures to get a useless degree that at best will get them an entry level sales position.
The problem is that society doesn't do the responsible thing and tell our kids that college education is currently way overpriced and is going through the same government-sponsored overvaluation that our housing market went through.
Yet we have Obama, who is the most listened-to person in the country, saying that we need more college education, the same way that Bush told us we need to borrow more against our home equity.
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On August 03 2011 08:45 acker wrote:
They'll probably get a good job at the end of it all. If they didn't think they were going to get a good job, they wouldn't be doing this. We do agree on most of it, definitely.
Umm, no... they're doing this precisely because they can't get a good job and/or don't think they'll get a good job. In fact, a lot of these women eventually develop an addiction to this sort of thing where they end up doing it for several years of their lives. So, to think that they believe they'll eventually get a good job is not true... and it's probably quite the opposite.
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On August 03 2011 09:06 Kahuna. wrote:
Umm, no... they're doing this precisely because they can't get a good job and/or don't think they'll get a good job. In fact, a lot of these women eventually develop an addiction to this sort of thing where they end up doing it for several years of their lives. So, to think that they believe they'll eventually get a good job is not true... and it's probably quite the opposite.
The bolded part is almost certainly true, the recession is really bad. The rest of it is prognostication and does not follow; recessions end after a decade or two and jobs will, in the long run, come back. Especially jobs that require university-level knowledge, they've started to recover faster than menial wage jobs...
I'm not sure what it is to get "addicted" to prostitution, either...it might become compulsory? They might start liking the work? The former is illegal, the latter is moral.
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On August 03 2011 08:34 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 08:19 acker wrote:On August 03 2011 08:10 Derez wrote:
First of all: A minimum wage job (in holland) pays more then prostitution. Their hourly rate is higher, but they lose significant amounts because they average about 2 customers a day and have to pay for their 'overhead costs' (space, 'organisation') on top of that. I'm fairly certain this depends on the prostitute. Some go for a lot of money, some don't. This also applies to foreign prostitutes. On August 03 2011 08:10 Derez wrote:
Secondly: Women in prostitution (in holland) can't actually compete for minimum wage jobs. Even getting a minimum wage job requires certain skills, like speaking the language and being mentally able of showing up for work every day (which is hard when you're addicted to booze or drugs, which it is estimated that over half of them are, not just a tenth). If they can't compete for minimum-wage jobs, then the alternative is even worse. The half statistic is independently unverified, which is why I'm using the 10% one. On August 03 2011 08:10 Derez wrote:
Thirdly: The women working as prostitutes aren't in the same position as your normal 'average joe'. If I loose my job, I'll collect social security and while I'll have to cut back on everything, in the grand scheme of things, I'll be relatively comfortable and I won't be on the streets. You can't make the same argument for the ukrainians/nigerians/thais currently standing behind the windows in Amsterdam. Once again, the alternative is even worse. If they can't even make money at minimum wage and have no safety net... On August 03 2011 08:10 Derez wrote:
And keep in mind that the red light district is actually the 'highlight' of dutch, legalized, prostitution. The other part of it is the women in my hometown standing around an official hooker parking lot in the middle of nowhere, or those working in an extremely shady club downtown. It's all legal, and it being legal is better then it being illegal, but it's still sad as fuck.
These women are choosing a 'job' that offers them better opportunities then they would have had in their home countries, that's true, but that reflects more on the dire conditions part of this world lives in then on the actual merits of prostitution. If it wasn't better and they weren't coerced, most of them wouldn't be in the Netherlands. I do agree it's sad, though. Guess it's part of your "least harm" doctrine, just like drugs... On August 03 2011 08:14 Bartuc wrote:
Yeah of course, if they make such a choice the damage is the lesser of two evils. But I think if I would have such a massive debt that either I have to choose between robing a bank and potentially ending up in jail or spending 30 minutes with an 80 year old guy, that doesn't make the end result any less shitty/detrimental so to say ;-) The action you choose is what you consider the lesser evil, neither evil is identical. The point is this: Prostitution, at it's most common level, is the result of circumstances, where the most viable choice becomes selling your body for peanuts, whether it's in your own country or in another. It's the result of society failing a group of people (or the 'global community failing entire countries), and we should be offering other, better options then that, which I'd say is the general consensus in dutch politics. The fact that we regulate it doesn't mean that we think it's a good thing or anything like that, no matter how the international press reports on it. The same argument can be made in this case. If tuition fees are at a point where your future job earnings can't cover them anymore, something is wrong in the system as a whole. I'm not questioning the decision individuals make in order to get by, I'm questioning the system as a whole. If college graduates feel the need to sell themselves off (which most of them obviously would prefer not to), that's a major signal that the system is failing entirely. You're supposed to be going to college in order to get a good job, not to spend 4 years of good times and then being forced into this. I honestly think we pretty much agree on most of this to be honest ;p.
Not at all. It's not for "peanuts" that these girls are doing it. It's for the substantial amount of money they're offered. Please, the girls aren't doing this for $50 a night. They're doing it for hundreds, far more than I make working a 9-6pm shift. Girls are doing these things so they can have their rent paid for them, so they can keep partying, etc. It's a joke to even assume that these girls are doing it to survive.
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On August 03 2011 09:12 acker wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 09:06 Kahuna. wrote:
Umm, no... they're doing this precisely because they can't get a good job and/or don't think they'll get a good job. In fact, a lot of these women eventually develop an addiction to this sort of thing where they end up doing it for several years of their lives. So, to think that they believe they'll eventually get a good job is not true... and it's probably quite the opposite. The bolded part is almost certainly true, the recession is really bad. The rest of it is prognostication and does not follow; recessions end after a decade or two and jobs will, in the long run, come back. I'm not sure what it is to get "addicted" to prostitution, either...it might become compulsory? They might start liking the work?
Recession or not, a prostitute will not give up an increasingly lucrative career path to get a job where she has to work more hours and get paid less, it is naive to say that she will. Economic growth = more rich men, hence more business and higher fee's collected by the prostitute. As any enterprising individual will tell you. The more time you put in, the bigger your book grows and the more money you make. They have built a valuable business in the process of "simply trying to pay the college bills" and they will not toss it away so easily.
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On August 03 2011 09:12 acker wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 09:06 Kahuna. wrote:
Umm, no... they're doing this precisely because they can't get a good job and/or don't think they'll get a good job. In fact, a lot of these women eventually develop an addiction to this sort of thing where they end up doing it for several years of their lives. So, to think that they believe they'll eventually get a good job is not true... and it's probably quite the opposite. The bolded part is almost certainly true, the recession is really bad. The rest of it is prognostication and does not follow; recessions end after a decade or two and jobs will, in the long run, come back. Especially jobs that require university-level knowledge, they've started to recover faster than menial wage jobs... I'm not sure what it is to get "addicted" to prostitution, either...it might become compulsory? They might start liking the work? The former is illegal, the latter is moral.
Easy money and luxuries. When they're pocketing good cash it can be really hard to start working 9-5 with a shitty wage.
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Just want to throw in (if it hasn't been mentioned): The ONLY way you get rid of your student loan debt is by dying or by becoming physically unable to work. You CAN NOT declare bankruptcy or just walk away.
I can provide links to official sites but I've got a friend working on this topic for a piece on how students deal with debt after school and that's one of the big elements.
So, when there aren't many options to pay for that debt and you can't just walk away? Seems to me like you do what you can to make ends meet.
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On August 03 2011 08:59 acker wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 08:54 Derez wrote:
That's undoubtedly true, but it's part of bigger societal issues. It's a combination of several problems:
1) Overpriced tuitions.
2) Societal acceptance of running crazy debts.
3) The dimishing 'value' associated with sleeping with someone.
4) Economic downturn, hard to get a job
I'd say that at least the first 3 things are issues that are a problem in our current society at large, not only in the USA, and that this is just the implication of them for the recently graduated. Obviously the girls doing this made poor choices, it's just that I wish they never had to face the choice in the first place. It's not 'just' college girls making poor choices (guys also), it's society encouraging them to make the wrong choices in the first place. Overpriced tuition is definitely a big concern. Probably the biggest concern for our future performance as a nation. It's extremely difficult to see how we'd get people to accept higher taxes in exchange for larger education subsidies, though; just look at any econ thread on this forum. America is crazy and I don't see the crazy going down any time soon. Hell, I've just stated something that's incredibly controversial in America and might attract the black hole of education. Alternatively, we could reform the education system, but this would die even faster in Congress. The acceptable level of debt accumulated really depends on the utility you get out of the debt; as long as you get out more than you pay in interest, it's good to run up debt. Generally. This is certainly not true for all circumstances, and I'm not a finance major. Three is blatant individual moralizing, to list this as a "problem of society" is absurd.
I was trying to respond to your earlier post still! Dont post so damn fast ;p.
Anyhow, for this one:
1) Agreed.
2) That's the economic principle indeed, but it doesn't actually work like that. In general, running a personal debt has become more acceptable in the western world (especially US, UK). There is no reason to assume that running a debt in the US in more profitable then in France (or wherever), yet holding a debt is more common in the US then anywhere else in the world. Running in the deep red is more acceptable in some countries then in others. Some societies promote it more then others. Can you really blame college students for doing it when their parents are doing it too?
3) I shouldn't have listed that as a 'problem'. It was me being preachy, and I agree there. It still doesn't actually change the fact that 'casual sex' has become more acceptable tho. I agree that it doesn't have to be a problem, but it does seem to me that the actual 'price of sex' is decreasing.
All I'm saying is that if people were warier of running a personal debt and less inclined to give 'it' away for free on a schoolnight, this would be less of a 'problem'. As it is, I see this largely as a result of changing values within our respective societies, not as a significant change in the amount of recent female graduates making 'poor' choices.
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On August 03 2011 09:18 scaban84 wrote:
Recession or not, a prostitute will not give up an increasingly lucrative career path to get a job where she has to work more hours and get paid less, it is naive to say that she will. Economic growth = more rich men, hence more business and higher fee's collected by the prostitute. As any enterprising individual will tell you. The more time you put in, the bigger your book grows and the more money you make. They have built a valuable business in the process of "simply trying to pay the college bills" and they will not toss it away so easily.
Wouldn't this depend on expected returns in the future? It's not at all clear that the wages from prostitution will increase faster than the wages of a graduate of a top college, nor is it clear that said wages will be as stable. Prostitution loses wages as time passes by, while normal jobs increase in wage as time passes...
On August 03 2011 09:19 Daray wrote:
Easy money and luxuries. When they're pocketing good cash it can be really hard to start working 9-5 with a shitty wage.
Even in the worst case scenario, where prostitute wage grows so fast that is makes future returns from college trivial in comparison, what's the problem? They'd be making a ton of money by choice for fewer hours, putting more women into the prostitution business. Which decreases supply in other industries, pushing wages up...
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On August 03 2011 09:12 acker wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 09:06 Kahuna. wrote:
Umm, no... they're doing this precisely because they can't get a good job and/or don't think they'll get a good job. In fact, a lot of these women eventually develop an addiction to this sort of thing where they end up doing it for several years of their lives. So, to think that they believe they'll eventually get a good job is not true... and it's probably quite the opposite. The bolded part is almost certainly true, the recession is really bad. The rest of it is prognostication and does not follow; recessions end after a decade or two and jobs will, in the long run, come back. Especially jobs that require university-level knowledge, they've started to recover faster than menial wage jobs... I'm not sure what it is to get "addicted" to prostitution, either...it might become compulsory? They might start liking the work? The former is illegal, the latter is moral.
I just don't think that these girls wake up in the morning thinking something along the lines of: "Oh I'll be a prostitute for now, because in 2-3 years I think I'll definitely be a lawyer making 100k+ a year."
It's probably more like: "Oh, my degree is useless because I have a position in retail and it doesn't look like I'm going to get the promotion to store-manager (which will barely help me anyway) and the future doesn't look any brighter... so let me turn to prostitution."
And when I mentioned "addiction to prostitution" I didn't mean it as literally, like the way a medical addiction would be defined. What I meant was that after these girls pay off their debts and return to their typical 9-to-5 , they realize that their prostitution methods were much more rewarding financially so they keep going back because nothing pays like it. To make my point more clear see the product description of this book called "Sugar Daddy Diaries" on Amazon:
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+ Show Spoiler +-----
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On August 03 2011 09:22 Derez wrote:
2) That's the economic principle indeed, but it doesn't actually work like that. In general, running a personal debt has become more acceptable in the western world (especially US, UK). There is no reason to assume that running a debt in the US in more profitable then in France (or wherever), yet holding a debt is more common in the US then anywhere else in the world. Running in the deep red is more acceptable in some countries then in others. Some societies promote it more then others. Can you really blame college students for doing it when their parents are doing it too?
There actually is a very crude way to calculate whether or not running a deficit is good for a country. If long-run bond interest rates are lower than expected GDP growth over the same time with the immediate cash, debt is ok.
Personal debt is similar. Interest rates were low and growth rate was high in the United States in the 2000s, so running a personal debt for most people and companies actually was better in the US than in France or other countries with higher interest rates and lower expected growth. Now that expected growth is low, savings are going up, if slowly. it's a cyclical thing, and I wouldn't worry about the moral issues. People are, in the end, driven by economics, even if they don't realize it.
In this case, the debt the girls are racking up now is expected to be paid for by future returns, and they're already working off part of the debt they owe...to be quite honest, it sounds a lot like med school.
On August 03 2011 09:22 Derez wrote:
3) I shouldn't have listed that as a 'problem'. It was me being preachy, and I agree there. It still doesn't actually change the fact that 'casual sex' has become more acceptable tho. I agree that it doesn't have to be a problem, but it does seem to me that the actual 'price of sex' is decreasing.
The "price" of consensual sex certainly is decreasing. Two hundred years ago, custom demanded that you had to wait to marry before someone could have sex with you and adultery was a crime. The extent to which this is a bad thing is debatable.
On August 03 2011 09:22 Derez wrote:
All I'm saying is that if people were warier of running a personal debt and less inclined to give 'it' away for free on a schoolnight, this would be less of a 'problem'. As it is, I see this largely as a result of changing values within our respective societies, not as a significant change in the amount of recent female graduates making 'poor' choices.
To be honest, liberalization of consensual sex has been coming for a long time since the advent of reliable birth control, irregardless of debt or other matters. And if the girls think prostitution is "better" for them than other jobs they could take...well, that's their choice, really. I'm not going to force them into jobs that they like less.
On August 03 2011 09:25 Kahuna. wrote:
I just don't think that these girls wake up in the morning thinking something along the lines of: "Oh I'll be a prostitute for now, because in 2-3 years I think I'll definitely be a lawyer making 100k+ a year."
It's probably more like: "Oh, my degree is useless because I have a position in retail and it doesn't look like I'm going to get the promotion to store-manager (which will barely help me anyway) and the future doesn't look any brighter... so let me turn to prostitution."
People actually do keep the future in mind when making estimates of what's right or what isn't. I'm not going to claim their estimates are perfect, but they certainly aren't as shortsighted as that.
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