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The US debt (proper debate) - Page 39

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Gaga
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany433 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-28 20:19:35
July 28 2011 20:13 GMT
#761
debt can't be bad per se because all the money flowing through our economies has to be someones debt.

The explosion of millionairs and billionairs even in the time of crisis/growing wealth in BRIC countries and the exploding depts are two sides of the same coin.


this should be economic 1x1 ... it's so sad that most people don't even get the basics nature of our money.
Ghad
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway2551 Posts
July 28 2011 20:29 GMT
#762
Could I just ask one quick question? Does the US has any sort of Value Added Tax?
forgottendreams: One underage girl, two drunk guys, one gogo dancer and starcraft 2. Apparently just another day in Europe.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
July 28 2011 20:31 GMT
#763
On July 29 2011 05:29 Ghad wrote:
Could I just ask one quick question? Does the US has any sort of Value Added Tax?


No.
Ghad
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway2551 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-28 20:44:09
July 28 2011 20:41 GMT
#764
Ok, just wanted to be sure, before asking:
Wouldn't even a low VAT on the enormous US economy be enough to solve the whole debt issue pretty easily?

Just to put some numbers: I pay about 35% tax, and 25% VAT on top of that over here. I know those kind of numbers are totally unrealistic in the US because of how you guys do stuff, but from the look of it even a very low tax increase should be enough. Is that really a worse alternative than your country defaulting on debt and thereby losing its position as the leading power a decade prematurely?

The debt you guys have don't really look unmanageable at all, I must confess I don't understand how you can be struggling so hard. Just get it done.
forgottendreams: One underage girl, two drunk guys, one gogo dancer and starcraft 2. Apparently just another day in Europe.
chickenhawk
Profile Joined February 2011
Portugal339 Posts
July 28 2011 20:49 GMT
#765
USA does not have any type of VAT? Really? Now i know where the problem comes from...
Deja Thoris
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
South Africa646 Posts
July 28 2011 20:50 GMT
#766
On July 29 2011 05:41 Ghad wrote:
Ok, just wanted to be sure, before asking:
Wouldn't even a low VAT on the enormous US economy be enough to solve the whole debt issue pretty easily?

Just to put some numbers: I pay about 35% tax, and 25% VAT on top of that over here. I know those kind of numbers are totally unrealistic in the US because of how you guys do stuff, but from the look of it even a very low tax increase should be enough. Is that really a worse alternative than your country defaulting on debt and thereby losing its position as the leading power a decade prematurely?

The debt you guys have don't really look unmanageable at all, I must confess I don't understand how you can be struggling so hard. Just get it done.



They have sales tax, its basically an equivalent tax but worse in many ways.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
July 28 2011 21:00 GMT
#767
On July 29 2011 05:50 Deja Thoris wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2011 05:41 Ghad wrote:
Ok, just wanted to be sure, before asking:
Wouldn't even a low VAT on the enormous US economy be enough to solve the whole debt issue pretty easily?

Just to put some numbers: I pay about 35% tax, and 25% VAT on top of that over here. I know those kind of numbers are totally unrealistic in the US because of how you guys do stuff, but from the look of it even a very low tax increase should be enough. Is that really a worse alternative than your country defaulting on debt and thereby losing its position as the leading power a decade prematurely?

The debt you guys have don't really look unmanageable at all, I must confess I don't understand how you can be struggling so hard. Just get it done.



They have sales tax, its basically an equivalent tax but worse in many ways.


The type of taxes to which you're subjected depends upon the state and city that you're in. You'll always be subject to federal income taxes. However, states and cities levy their own taxes, including some combination of income taxes, property taxes, and sales taxes. For example, in New York, your income is taxed three times (by the federal government, by the state, and by the city), and that does not include the sales and property taxes that you have to pay.
Mysticesper
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1183 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-28 21:53:15
July 28 2011 21:51 GMT
#768
On July 29 2011 05:41 Ghad wrote:
Ok, just wanted to be sure, before asking:
Wouldn't even a low VAT on the enormous US economy be enough to solve the whole debt issue pretty easily?

Just to put some numbers: I pay about 35% tax, and 25% VAT on top of that over here. I know those kind of numbers are totally unrealistic in the US because of how you guys do stuff, but from the look of it even a very low tax increase should be enough. Is that really a worse alternative than your country defaulting on debt and thereby losing its position as the leading power a decade prematurely?

The debt you guys have don't really look unmanageable at all, I must confess I don't understand how you can be struggling so hard. Just get it done.


A universal VAT (national sales tax) instead of income tax is one proposal certain people want to do to overhaul our tax system -- one full of loopholes, etc. I dont remember specific numbers, but its somewhere between 15 and 25% universally would produce equal, if not much greater tax revenue instead of our current (and rather broken) system. People in favor of the current system argue that increased wealth != increased spending, meaning the rich wouldn't be taxed more, like they should be. It would eliminate the IRS almost entirely, everything is done at the cash register, no forms, no tax fraud, nothing -- probably saves a lot of money too.

But in all reality, every time there seems to be an increase in taxes, the spending just goes up too, leading to our current problem. Inevitably, i think both must be done, but spending cuts to a much larger extent. It is hard to see how much of this money is actually doing any benefit. Education is one concern -- we pay so much per student, but it really doesn't show. Our elementary schools are good, but then it just fails miserably at the middle and highschool levels.

It's also just a generational shift between losing manufacturing to china and people not educated enough to move up from manufacturing / manual labor jobs to a "high-tech" industry which our economy is becoming. Auto workers' careers are limited, when so much of their work can be automated, and the same for many other similar factory occupations. Unemployment = less revenue, but not to our current scale.

Another problem is that the tax payers pay for public employees' employment benefits (health care, etc) if they are in public unions. Our tax dollars go to their (in some cases too high salaries), which then goes to their benefits. So you see some people (like Governor Chris Christie of New Jersey) go after unions. Obviously this creates backlash regarding the above education funding, and how it affects our children. Unfortunately, the current, bloated spending isn't doing much, and cutting or increasing will not change anything. It's a quality issue more than a quantity issue, leading to a belief that quality = money. While that is true in some cases, I would argue that we are at the "high" end of the money spectrum and not seeing much from it, and it is a systemic problem that requires a major overhaul that will not be accomplished because of political games.

Defense is another. The wars do cost money. There is the argument that we don't need to be deployed in so many countries, that America shouldn't police the world. And whatever else happens. I'm rather indifferent, though I would wonder what would happen if we didn't mediate all of these situations, both good and bad. Obama is continuing Iraq and Afganistan (I think its one of the things he is doing well), but he jumped into Libya, something that may be a criticism, depending on your stance with our military involvement. It really isn't that different than Bush jumping on Iraq and Afghanistan (reasoning may / may not be different, depending on personal beliefs), but the scale is, fortunately, much smaller. Either way, it adds more to defense spending, and further cements the US into the policing role.

And the list goes on and on for all of our major departments. It is easy to see that they can easily be downsized, but people decide to panic and create scapegoats. This leads to nothing being done.

The "struggling" is political games. People focus on re-elections instead of really doing what is right. If we had term limits on congress, it wouldn't be so bad, they wouldn't be focused on getting re-elected for the 5th, 10th, etc time. Because of re-elections, nothing will really get done till 2012 passes, and even then, it depends on who wins -- both congressional balance, and obviously the president. Unfortunately, that will never come to being, as they would be voting on ending their own careers, especially with super majority voting that amendments require. Re-elections & career politicians lead to zero risk taking, nobody standing firm against the majority, as the majority is not necessarily the correct decision. Nobody has concrete beliefs and core values that isn't persuaded by third parties. Whether you agree or disagree with them, it is something to be respected, and I believe that is lost in our current political system. I am talking about deeper values and beliefs than "pro-life / pro choice," etc. I bet a lot of them couldn't explain why they hold that belief that isn't political babble or shallow reasoning.

Big organizations, corporations (banks, for one), unions control both parties, because of the vast amount of funding that election campaigns apparently require. This is also another problem with our system. So these large organizations threaten members of congress with money. And since congressmen need money for their nth re-election, they bow to them.
Kiarip
Profile Joined August 2008
United States1835 Posts
July 29 2011 01:10 GMT
#769
On July 29 2011 05:13 Gaga wrote:
debt can't be bad per se because all the money flowing through our economies has to be someones debt.

The explosion of millionairs and billionairs even in the time of crisis/growing wealth in BRIC countries and the exploding depts are two sides of the same coin.


this should be economic 1x1 ... it's so sad that most people don't even get the basics nature of our money.

Of course...


money is actually just credit, there's nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is that the government is heavily in debt and still has a deficit that is only increasing.
419
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Russian Federation3631 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-29 01:17:18
July 29 2011 01:17 GMT
#770
TBH, I don't see any easy solution ahead. It seems that only a small fraction of the legislative branch actually wants to seriously cut spending.

Will be interesting when the current generation of voters decides to renege on the entitlements promised to its retirees. After all, why should one generation pay for the benefits another one voted for itself?
?
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-29 01:52:34
July 29 2011 01:50 GMT
#771
On July 29 2011 05:49 chickenhawk wrote:
USA does not have any type of VAT? Really? Now i know where the problem comes from...


Not necessarily. It's just a different form. VAT has different effects than the flat income method we have.

Also, In the United States, you pay Federal, State, County(Parish), and City taxes.

Federal is Income.
State is usually sales tax + some minimal sort of income.
County is land.
City is land.

Note: these are generalizations, it does differ state to state.

A federal VAT tax would be a huge hit to state incomes. While our federal government tends to bully the states, US states themselves have a lot more autonomy than most Europeans realize.



There are serious problems with certain "entitlement" programs in the United States, a lot of our welfare spending is wasted or misused. While it won't solve the debt problem, fixing these problems will at least give certain groups in government more credibility.


And for those wondering the sentiment in the US, I think it goes like this:

60+ pissed they aren't going to get their free money and are stalling shit as long as possible so they get as much as they can.
35-60 for the most part, indifferent
18-35 rather upset at what they must clean up from the above two.


The biggest problem of all is that fiscal conservatives who wish to address the problem are stuck having to ally with social conservatives, which tend to be the least educated people in the US. They are stuck in a bad spot to push their agenda, which results in deadlocked government because not even republicans like each other at this point, but are stuck working together. It's only a matter of time before we see a split in the republican party, as the younger generation (around the board) is significantly less socially conservative. Until that happens, our debt will climb.
_Major
Profile Joined April 2011
United States107 Posts
July 29 2011 03:29 GMT
#772
^^^
Well said BluePanther. Don't forget Medicare and Social Security. It's a very common misconception that these are included in Federal Income Tax when they are not.
Do you practice on Macro Or Die maps? You should - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216550
jmbnm
Profile Joined July 2011
24 Posts
July 29 2011 03:50 GMT
#773
On July 29 2011 04:00 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2011 03:54 xDaunt wrote:
On July 29 2011 03:47 farvacola wrote:
On July 29 2011 03:39 xDaunt wrote:
On July 29 2011 03:22 jon arbuckle wrote:
On July 29 2011 03:02 xDaunt wrote:
And don't give me any crap about Reid or Obama putting forth plans. Where are they?


20 seconds on Google.


Again, that Reid plan is just a set of ideas. It's meaningless at this point because there's no intention to offer it for a vote. Has the Senate made any effort to pass any legislation? Nope. Only Congress has. That's the problem

On July 29 2011 03:22 jon arbuckle wrote:
On July 29 2011 03:02 xDaunt wrote:
Obama has never even offered a plan other than recommending that the debt ceiling simply be raised in a "clean bill." He is completely AWOL.


It's not like he and Boehner were feverishly working toward some sort of "grand bargain" or anything before Cantor decided he wanted to be Speaker of the House.


No, Obama blew up those negotiations by all accounts. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jul/24/curl-is-obama-a-pathological-liar/

There's also a Washington Post story out there confirming that the break down was Obama's fault.


Your source is a Joseph Curl op-ed? Do you even know who Joseph Curl is, or what he's previously written? Obviously not, that piece is one of the least compelling articles I've seen in a while.


I presume that you'll say something similar about the author of this article, but whatever. Your loss.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/post/obama-kills-bipartisan-deal-then-reid-resorts-to-smoke-and-mirrors/2011/03/29/gIQAF3YLYI_blog.html


Rofl, it only gets worse, your source material consists of two incredibly prolific neo-con bloggers who are notorious for their unsubstantiated conservative views. You do realize that Jennifer Rubin was one of the journalists who immediately said that the Norway attacks were carried out by Islamic Jihadists. In other words, anyone looking for a mediated, bi-partisan view of things stays far away from both Jennifer Rubin and Joseph Curl. Cite something that isn't a blog or op-ed by a neo-con tea partyer and we'll talk.


And... no response. I like the dodging.

I also literally almost laughed out loud at


I presume that you'll say something similar about the author of this article, but whatever. Your loss.


I PRESUME YOU'LL CLAIM THE HUFFINGTON POST HAS A LIBERAL SLANT, BUT WHATEVER. YOUR LOSS.
partisan
Profile Joined January 2011
United States783 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-29 03:54:17
July 29 2011 03:53 GMT
#774
On July 29 2011 10:17 419 wrote:
TBH, I don't see any easy solution ahead. It seems that only a small fraction of the legislative branch actually wants to seriously cut spending.

Will be interesting when the current generation of voters decides to renege on the entitlements promised to its retirees. After all, why should one generation pay for the benefits another one voted for itself?



If you can find a current social security beneficiary that is still around and voted for the programs inception, then I'll eat my hat.

The issue is the US has one the lowest tax rates of all OECD countries and we spend exponentially more on defense than other developed countries. That's not sustainable
Ghad
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway2551 Posts
July 29 2011 08:58 GMT
#775
On July 29 2011 06:51 Mysticesper wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

On July 29 2011 05:41 Ghad wrote:
Ok, just wanted to be sure, before asking:
Wouldn't even a low VAT on the enormous US economy be enough to solve the whole debt issue pretty easily?

Just to put some numbers: I pay about 35% tax, and 25% VAT on top of that over here. I know those kind of numbers are totally unrealistic in the US because of how you guys do stuff, but from the look of it even a very low tax increase should be enough. Is that really a worse alternative than your country defaulting on debt and thereby losing its position as the leading power a decade prematurely?

The debt you guys have don't really look unmanageable at all, I must confess I don't understand how you can be struggling so hard. Just get it done.


A universal VAT (national sales tax) instead of income tax is one proposal certain people want to do to overhaul our tax system -- one full of loopholes, etc. I dont remember specific numbers, but its somewhere between 15 and 25% universally would produce equal, if not much greater tax revenue instead of our current (and rather broken) system. People in favor of the current system argue that increased wealth != increased spending, meaning the rich wouldn't be taxed more, like they should be. It would eliminate the IRS almost entirely, everything is done at the cash register, no forms, no tax fraud, nothing -- probably saves a lot of money too.

But in all reality, every time there seems to be an increase in taxes, the spending just goes up too, leading to our current problem. Inevitably, i think both must be done, but spending cuts to a much larger extent. It is hard to see how much of this money is actually doing any benefit. Education is one concern -- we pay so much per student, but it really doesn't show. Our elementary schools are good, but then it just fails miserably at the middle and highschool levels.

It's also just a generational shift between losing manufacturing to china and people not educated enough to move up from manufacturing / manual labor jobs to a "high-tech" industry which our economy is becoming. Auto workers' careers are limited, when so much of their work can be automated, and the same for many other similar factory occupations. Unemployment = less revenue, but not to our current scale.

Another problem is that the tax payers pay for public employees' employment benefits (health care, etc) if they are in public unions. Our tax dollars go to their (in some cases too high salaries), which then goes to their benefits. So you see some people (like Governor Chris Christie of New Jersey) go after unions. Obviously this creates backlash regarding the above education funding, and how it affects our children. Unfortunately, the current, bloated spending isn't doing much, and cutting or increasing will not change anything. It's a quality issue more than a quantity issue, leading to a belief that quality = money. While that is true in some cases, I would argue that we are at the "high" end of the money spectrum and not seeing much from it, and it is a systemic problem that requires a major overhaul that will not be accomplished because of political games.

Defense is another. The wars do cost money. There is the argument that we don't need to be deployed in so many countries, that America shouldn't police the world. And whatever else happens. I'm rather indifferent, though I would wonder what would happen if we didn't mediate all of these situations, both good and bad. Obama is continuing Iraq and Afganistan (I think its one of the things he is doing well), but he jumped into Libya, something that may be a criticism, depending on your stance with our military involvement. It really isn't that different than Bush jumping on Iraq and Afghanistan (reasoning may / may not be different, depending on personal beliefs), but the scale is, fortunately, much smaller. Either way, it adds more to defense spending, and further cements the US into the policing role.

And the list goes on and on for all of our major departments. It is easy to see that they can easily be downsized, but people decide to panic and create scapegoats. This leads to nothing being done.

The "struggling" is political games. People focus on re-elections instead of really doing what is right. If we had term limits on congress, it wouldn't be so bad, they wouldn't be focused on getting re-elected for the 5th, 10th, etc time. Because of re-elections, nothing will really get done till 2012 passes, and even then, it depends on who wins -- both congressional balance, and obviously the president. Unfortunately, that will never come to being, as they would be voting on ending their own careers, especially with super majority voting that amendments require. Re-elections & career politicians lead to zero risk taking, nobody standing firm against the majority, as the majority is not necessarily the correct decision. Nobody has concrete beliefs and core values that isn't persuaded by third parties. Whether you agree or disagree with them, it is something to be respected, and I believe that is lost in our current political system. I am talking about deeper values and beliefs than "pro-life / pro choice," etc. I bet a lot of them couldn't explain why they hold that belief that isn't political babble or shallow reasoning.

Big organizations, corporations (banks, for one), unions control both parties, because of the vast amount of funding that election campaigns apparently require. This is also another problem with our system. So these large organizations threaten members of congress with money. And since congressmen need money for their nth re-election, they bow to them.


Thanks buddy, thats pretty comprehensive. Fingers crossed that you find some sort of way out of the quagmire.
forgottendreams: One underage girl, two drunk guys, one gogo dancer and starcraft 2. Apparently just another day in Europe.
Gamegene
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States8308 Posts
July 29 2011 16:01 GMT
#776
Well, it looks like "boner" and his bill has failed, making him a weak leader.
Which is pretty bad, considering that he's one of the few people on the right that Obama should and could (politically speaking) have consulted with. John Boehner's power as speaker of the house has diminished considerably, which means that it'll be even harder for the government to rally on a single bipartisan spending cut bill that can pass the republican controlled house, the democrat controlled senate, and the veto wielded by Obama, since the tea party will certainly try and hinder any effort at anything less than political jockeying/economic suicide.

...It's looking like the deadline will not be met...

I have to honestly say this is one of the few times in my life where I'm actually genuinely worried about something that is happening in the government. I'm severely disappointed in the childish arguments that both sides have given; they're the same debates going on in this thread: derailed discussion everything from wars, the legitimacy of the government's power, social struggles and very few words about the actual debt.

People who are interested in these discussions have told me plenty of times that "the government doesn't work". That it's been corrupted rotten by basically perceived evil. I think that the truth is, is that the government is awkward. It was designed in the 18th century to combat a strong monarchy; it was designed for conflict. In all of history, the government has never acted swiftly except in times of extreme crisis, where emotional distress would validate a President's ability to lead unopposed.

I know I'm talking about things past the debt, but it's all that I can think about when I think about the debt, because the debt issue is done. The challenge has not been solved and it has failed. What comes now is the aftermath, and a couple weeks from now I can see plenty of posts, plenty of discussion that we should have done something instead of just having these pointless arguments.
Throw on your favorite jacket and you're good to roll. Stroll through the trees and let your miseries go.
domovoi
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1478 Posts
July 29 2011 16:23 GMT
#777
On July 29 2011 05:49 chickenhawk wrote:
USA does not have any type of VAT? Really? Now i know where the problem comes from...

Um, the VAT isn't exactly helping Portugal. Even though economists generally recommend a VAT, it's politically unfeasible in the US. Conservatives don't like tax increases. Liberals recognize the VAT as a regressive tax increase. So neither side is really into it.

Anyway trivializing the US debt as a VAT problem is ignorant. The US's near-term revenue "problem" (imo not actually a problem) can be fixed by letting the Bush tax cuts expire for the highest income bracket. Long-term, spiraling health costs and Social Security make the problem much more harder than just putting in a VAT.
domovoi
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1478 Posts
July 29 2011 16:27 GMT
#778
On July 29 2011 12:53 partisan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2011 10:17 419 wrote:
TBH, I don't see any easy solution ahead. It seems that only a small fraction of the legislative branch actually wants to seriously cut spending.

Will be interesting when the current generation of voters decides to renege on the entitlements promised to its retirees. After all, why should one generation pay for the benefits another one voted for itself?



If you can find a current social security beneficiary that is still around and voted for the programs inception, then I'll eat my hat.

The issue is the US has one the lowest tax rates of all OECD countries and we spend exponentially more on defense than other developed countries. That's not sustainable

It would be sustainable if our healthcare costs weren't so outrageous. We do spend too much on defense, but it's not the biggest problem.
jon arbuckle
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Canada443 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-29 16:49:36
July 29 2011 16:46 GMT
#779
I think Boehner is strong-arming freshmen still and delaying the vote. If it passes, or whatever ends up passing, Senate will probably quickly rewrite it and send it off. That or who knows anymore.

On July 30 2011 01:01 Gamegene wrote:
I have to honestly say this is one of the few times in my life where I'm actually genuinely worried about something that is happening in the government. I'm severely disappointed in the childish arguments that both sides have given; they're the same debates going on in this thread: derailed discussion everything from wars, the legitimacy of the government's power, social struggles and very few words about the actual debt.


Most of the world (I'm guessing, but Europe and Canada at least) regards the States' supposedly liberal president of being centre-right in policy, if not in speech, just because he has to constantly capitulate to a frenzied mob barking mad-dog accusations of "socialism!" no matter what he seems to do. Anyone who is left of Obama's policies is effectively voiceless in America's government and political discourse, period, because what should be the right wing is now erratic, aggressive, malevolent, and psychopathic, shouting the loudest about how they have no voice, saying they're the powerless little people while bringing states and now the entire country to a stand-still, prizing anti-intellectualism, and steadfastly adhering to a history of the world, a scientific model, and thus a reality that does not correspond to anything else outside themselves. Then, moreover, proposing steadfast conformism to that literal alternate reality as open-mindedness, individualism and liberty as conformism to party lines. Boehner's getting fucked by this right now, and Boehner's not what I'm talking about when I talk about what what should be the right wing now is.

The fact that United States' political discourse cannot adequately see what socialism, liberalism, Naziism, centrism, etc. are anymore, and that increasingly one half of the political discourse commands the whole country on willful disingenuous, is a complete and utter disaster.

On July 30 2011 01:01 Gamegene wrote:
It was designed in the 18th century to combat a strong monarchy; it was designed for conflict. In all of history, the government has never acted swiftly except in times of extreme crisis, where emotional distress would validate a President's ability to lead unopposed.


Considering the Founding Fathers were coming out of the Enlightenment, national discourse was always assumed to be based upon solid learning and reasoned discussion. You go from the Lincoln-Douglas debates with 30-minute rejoinders to Twitter townhalls, soundbites, and 60-second responses with talking points, and the system of friction and compromise that made American democracy so fruitful withers, wrinkles, and dies.
Mondays
bonifaceviii
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2890 Posts
July 29 2011 16:57 GMT
#780
The Republican party's got a real problem. Due to the demands of the Tea Party they can't relent on the tax increase issue, even with regard to closing tax loopholes and letting the Bush tax cuts expire. But they also can't get the kind of savings they need without attacking social security or medicare, which will lose them elections forever. So they need to delay and delay and delay, and hope that the Democrats are the ones that flinch first and propose cutting social security/medicare.

I think Barack Obama would rather do the 14th amendment thing and fight it out in court instead.
Stay a while and listen || http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354018
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