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The Economist hits a home run on the debt situation (about time, they've vomited enough mediocre articles about it already): + Show Spoiler +MICHAEL MUNGER, a professor of political science at Duke University, insightfully compares "tax expenditures" to the Catholic church's practice of selling indulgences, which fomented the Reformation by sending Martin Luther into fit of righteous pique. Mr Munger reminds us that
Indulgences were "get out of purgatory free!" cards. Of course, it was the church that had created the idea of purgatory in the first place. Then the church granted itself the power to release souls from purgatory (for a significant fee, of course).
As Luther put it, in his Thesis No. 27, "as the penny jingles into the money-box, the soul flies out." If high tax rates are a sort of purgatory (and who doubts it?), then tax credits are indeed akin to indulgences. Mr Munger writes:
We let people out of tax purgatory if they own large houses, if they receive expensive health insurance from their employer, if they produce sugar or ethanol, or any of thousands of special categories. These categories have nothing to do with need (is there a national defense justification for a protected sugar industry?), but instead depend on how much these sinners are willing to pay to members of Congress.
"As the campaign contributions jingle into the campaign funds, the tax revenues fly out", he adds. As a result, "we have categories within categories within subgroups, all at different prices, deductions or exemptions that release some elites from the published tax rates."
Mr Munger observes that America's blockheaded debt-ceiling debate flows in part from a bipartisan commitment to the medieval theology of our tax code:
The Republicans in Congress are prepared to sacrifice our immortal debt rating to the proposition that not one penny increase is possible, even though almost no one actually pays those rates. The Democrats in Congress like high rates, so that they can sell indulgences.
Republicans depend on selling indulgences, too, Mr Munger is keen to stress. Bowles-Simpson recommended closing some of the tax code's most egregious loopholes. But the political incentives led President Obama to refuse the chance to go after tax expenditures; he has mostly pushed for higher rates. This is all incredibly depressing. You know we're in trouble when Mr Munger, one of our sharpest scholars of political economy, is unable to offer useful advice beyond calling for a reformation, "a Martin Luther to speak out and tell the truth".
I think many millions of Americans believed that the tea-party movement marked the beginning of a real reformation, yet the tea-party animals in Congress, in the thrall of Grover Norquist's anti-tax fanaticism, have been among those most intransigently opposed to bringing clarity and fairness to our tax code. When Tom Coburn, a staunchly conservative senator from Oklahoma, set forth a "grand bargain" proposal that would cut $9 trillion in spending, including $1 in tax expenditures, Mr Norquist denounced it as a "$1 trillion tax hike plan". But Mr Coburn is right when he argues that
Tax expenditures are not tax cuts. Tax expenditures are socialism and corporate welfare. Tax expenditures are increases on anyone who does not receive the benefit or can’t hire a lobbyist…to manipulate the code to their favor.
Mr Coburn, who is a bit loose with his use of "socialism", may not be the Luther Mr Munger is looking for, but I haven't heard from anyone more Luther-like on this issue. Mr Munger identifies Mr Obama with the Pope, for mostly ignoring Simpson-Bowles, but I nominate Grover Norquist instead for his role as pontiff of the increasingly corrupt supply-side faith.
Which reminds me of a charmingly opinionated philosophy professor from Texas I once met. He told me the story of his conversion in adulthood from Catholicism to the Orthodox church. With each mention of the despised "Pope of Rome", he feigned to spit on the ground. Try it with "Grover Norquist". It's satisfying. Why raise tax rates when hardly anyone pays these tax rates anyway? It's a good question.
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I'm not American but what I think is that USA is just spending money on stupid things. SO much money to war it's not even funny, if you start war you need defense too so it just keeps on getting more expensive.
Only way to fix it in my opinion is to step away from a lot of things that the USA does which aren't needed.
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On July 28 2011 23:34 bonifaceviii wrote: Why raise tax rates when hardly anyone pays these tax rates anyway? It's a good question.
That wasn't the point The Economist or even that particular writer is making. It's not about not paying tax, it's that the American tax code is illusory, riddled with holes for people who should pay to sneak through. Obama fucked up by going after higher rates; the GOP are fuckin' up by being so blockheaded about this.
That editorial's not a very well-tempered piece, but The Economist has been about as impartial, even stand-up, as possible considering their obvious favour for business over government: cf. here.
The Boehner budget will likely get voted through today despite its major flaws. Boehner whipped the freshmen into playing realpolitick:
On the Laura Ingraham show yesterday, Boehner said he was telling members that his plan was worth backing because "President Obama hates it." Support it, or you hand Obama a win.
"If we vote it down," said King, "we cripple ourselves for the next year."
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Sweet, let's enact bad policies as a matter of spite. That's how a country should be run.
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For my it's gotten gotten to the point that the entire thing is a crock. Even if the debt problem is paved out for a while theres still the underlying structure that caused it, we've seen how our country reacts to real change. And even if thats done theres still the issues of the incompetent geriatrics in office, most were prolly in there like 40 years.
Dunno if any of this made actual sense ^^*
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The debt is a result of loop hole manipulation and corporations using the governement as a puppet to drain money and create fake money on the United States Back.
It was a result of a few presidents placing the system known as the federal reserve.
I first learned about this "part" of the government in the movie from micheal moore.
He pointed out all the people who were part of the federal reserve, almost all were Former Bank CEOs and such.
Too me alot of things do not make sense in the USA society format. Soo many industries are monopolized and exploit the average citizen. So many fundamental problems with how business is conducted. So many hypocritism and corruption.
I'm glad I'm canadian, but I can't deny the influence coming from the USA. I have more faith in Canadians as a whole to slowly phase out the aspects of our society that were created in the 19-20th century.
But only the future can deliver us, and most likely a crisis will kick start most of it. However, there is still hope and progress will come for the USA. Their is alot of pride there.
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On July 29 2011 01:04 Bibdy wrote: Sweet, let's enact bad policies as a matter of spite. That's how a country should be run.
It will either die or get completely rewritten in the Senate. No way Boehner's plan as it is now is going to get to Obama's desk.
If it even gets that far, as 23 House Repubs have expressed disapproval, and no Dems are on record as even considering taking it out for drinks. Again, Boehner can only really score with his caucus by using the "it hurts the Dems in 2012" line. This is why his plan means the States will do this again in six months and why it'll still lead to a credit downgrade.
On July 29 2011 01:25 tdynasty wrote: I'm glad I'm canadian, but I can't deny the influence coming from the USA. I have more faith in Canadians as a whole to slowly phase out the aspects of our society that were created in the 19-20th century.
Watching American politics has stopped being funny. We gave Harper a majority - we gave a Prime Minister favouring close economic ties with the US and who is ideologically aligned with the GOP in social, religious, economic, environmental, scientific, etc. issues free reign over the country for the next four years - and Toronto elected the Brothers Ford, who among other things want to privatize the TTC and the library system. Our political discourse is starting to get worse, more divisive and dumber and less inclined towards compromise. Hell, people are starting to misuse "communist" and "socialist," more and more and more.
Harper is nowhere near as bad as the GOP is right now, but this happiness of distance is an illusion.
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You know what's funny reading this thread? I bet Congress and the President are having the same kinds of discussions: pointless debate that will never deliver a clear victor on the issue; what one side says only enrages the other and furthers their belief that they're more "right" and vice versa.
And unfortunately unlike this thread, it's going to have a lot of consequences for the United States... and maybe even the world as well.
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On July 29 2011 01:36 jon arbuckle wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 01:04 Bibdy wrote: Sweet, let's enact bad policies as a matter of spite. That's how a country should be run. It will either die or get completely rewritten in the Senate. No way Boehner's plan as it is now is going to get to Obama's desk. If it even gets that far, as 23 House Repubs have expressed disapproval, and no Dems are on record as even considering taking it out for drinks. Again, Boehner can only really score with his caucus by using the "it hurts the Dems in 2012" line. This is why his plan means the States will do this again in six months and why it'll still lead to a credit downgrade. Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 01:25 tdynasty wrote: I'm glad I'm canadian, but I can't deny the influence coming from the USA. I have more faith in Canadians as a whole to slowly phase out the aspects of our society that were created in the 19-20th century. Watching American politics has stopped being funny. We gave Harper a majority - we gave a Prime Minister favouring close economic ties with the US and who is ideologically aligned with the GOP in social, religious, economic, environmental, scientific, etc. issues free reign over the country for the next four years - and Toronto elected the Brothers Ford, who among other things want to privatize the TTC and the library system. Our political discourse is starting to get worse, more divisive and dumber and less inclined towards compromise. Hell, people are starting to misuse "communist" and "socialist," more and more and more. Harper is nowhere near as bad as the GOP is right now, but this happiness of distance is an illusion.
Has Canada also media outfits like fox news? I don't mean just right-wing and manipulative but also from size and the mass of people it reaches?
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The most painful aspect about this "debate" is that basically no one is serious about cutting spending. Neither the Boehner bill nor whatever smoke and mirrors Reid has in mind has anything that even looks like a signficant cut. Most of our politicians are simply too inept and corrupt.
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It's a good thing the OP and the average poster offers no facts or data of any kind, giving us free reign to have a "proper debate" where we talk about how corporations are bad, and the military costs too much money. Now and then we can post a link to a site which espouses an attitude which reaffirms our preexisting convictions, and freely post economically illiterate ideas that would make the average economist cringe or face palm, like suggestions to "keep the money in the country."
Such threads are more conducive to endless bumping and arguments that splinter into a thousand directions at once. I'm guessing the most popular thread possible would be one with the thread title "post how you think the world should be run and why everyone else is wrong (proper debate)" and an empty OP.
No, trillions of dollars of debt isn't bad at all. It's just a scam being manufactured by the republicans! It's well known in more educated circles that you can increase debt indefinitely and never have to worry about actually paying it off. There really is such a thing as a free lunch. Unfortunately, Fox News and talk radio keep propagandizing the American people into mind control, causing them to espouse ideas which are contrary to their obvious self interest. If the evil banks who are sucking the money out of poor old widows grew a conscience or were whipped into shape by the state, things would be so much better. Fixing our tax loopholes would eliminate all debt. Oh, and Cheney and Halliburton have to go too, because they send us to wars we don't want to be in. If you guys don't believe me, there's this really cool show called the Daily Show where they teach you this kind of stuff, you should check it out.
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On July 29 2011 01:44 xDaunt wrote: The most painful aspect about this "debate" is that basically no one is serious about cutting spending. Neither the Boehner bill nor whatever smoke and mirrors Reid has in mind has anything that even looks like a signficant cut. Most of our politicians are simply too inept and corrupt. I wouldn't go so far as to say they're corrupt, but they're so incompetent and closed-minded that the entire idea of compromise ridiculed. I'd call myself more Republican than Democrat, but I can still truly respect Obama from trying to get a compromise through, while the far left is criticizing him for backing off on issues. His own party is attacking him for compromise, ffs. If the debt deal was a simple issue it wouldn't be this big of a problem, but it is a big deal and so compromise HAS to be made. Unfortunately the people elected aren't the same people that are willing to go down that road.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On July 29 2011 01:58 jdseemoreglass wrote: It's a good thing the OP and the average poster offers no facts or data of any kind, giving us free reign to have a "proper debate" where we talk about how corporations are bad, and the military costs too much money. Now and then we can post a link to a site which espouses an attitude which reaffirms our preexisting convictions, and freely post economically illiterate ideas that would make the average economist cringe or face palm, like suggestions to "keep the money in the country."
Such threads are more conducive to endless bumping and arguments that splinter into a thousand directions at once. I'm guessing the most popular thread possible would be one with the thread title "post how you think the world should be run and why everyone else is wrong (proper debate)" and an empty OP. I appreciated the above...
No, trillions of dollars of debt isn't bad at all. It's just a scam being manufactured by the republicans! It's well known in more educated circles that you can increase debt indefinitely and never have to worry about actually paying it off. There really is such a thing as a free lunch. Unfortunately, Fox News and talk radio keep propagandizing the American people into mind control, causing them to espouse ideas which are contrary to their obvious self interest. If the evil banks who are sucking the money out of poor old widows grew a conscience or were whipped into shape by the state, things would be so much better. Fixing our tax loopholes would eliminate all debt. Oh, and Cheney and Halliburton have to go too, because they send us to wars we don't want to be in. If you guys don't believe me, there's this really cool show called the Daily Show where they teach you this kind of stuff, you should check it out. But I would've thought the right response to your complaint would've been to provide the facts and data in an impartial manner, and then draw reasonable conclusions from it, which you would acknowledge as your own.
If you, like me, don't have the time or interest in debating US economic policy in this thread, it would've been more polite to simply take a pass than to tar all opinions with the same silly brush.
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On July 29 2011 02:05 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 01:58 jdseemoreglass wrote: It's a good thing the OP and the average poster offers no facts or data of any kind, giving us free reign to have a "proper debate" where we talk about how corporations are bad, and the military costs too much money. Now and then we can post a link to a site which espouses an attitude which reaffirms our preexisting convictions, and freely post economically illiterate ideas that would make the average economist cringe or face palm, like suggestions to "keep the money in the country."
Such threads are more conducive to endless bumping and arguments that splinter into a thousand directions at once. I'm guessing the most popular thread possible would be one with the thread title "post how you think the world should be run and why everyone else is wrong (proper debate)" and an empty OP. I appreciated the above... Show nested quote +No, trillions of dollars of debt isn't bad at all. It's just a scam being manufactured by the republicans! It's well known in more educated circles that you can increase debt indefinitely and never have to worry about actually paying it off. There really is such a thing as a free lunch. Unfortunately, Fox News and talk radio keep propagandizing the American people into mind control, causing them to espouse ideas which are contrary to their obvious self interest. If the evil banks who are sucking the money out of poor old widows grew a conscience or were whipped into shape by the state, things would be so much better. Fixing our tax loopholes would eliminate all debt. Oh, and Cheney and Halliburton have to go too, because they send us to wars we don't want to be in. If you guys don't believe me, there's this really cool show called the Daily Show where they teach you this kind of stuff, you should check it out. But I would've thought the right response to your complaint would've been to provide the facts and data in an impartial manner, and then draw reasonable conclusions from it, which you would acknowledge as your own. If you, like me, don't have the time or interest in debating US economic policy in this thread, it would've been more polite to simply take a pass than to tar all opinions with the same silly brush.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210665
My thread is the one the OP labels "troll bait" that's filled with sources and actual data. There's the facts I can offer you. Unfortunately, I can't say I offered them in an impartial manner. I have a very clear opinion on the matter, which is essentially a prerequisite for "debates."
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On July 29 2011 02:10 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 02:05 tree.hugger wrote:On July 29 2011 01:58 jdseemoreglass wrote: It's a good thing the OP and the average poster offers no facts or data of any kind, giving us free reign to have a "proper debate" where we talk about how corporations are bad, and the military costs too much money. Now and then we can post a link to a site which espouses an attitude which reaffirms our preexisting convictions, and freely post economically illiterate ideas that would make the average economist cringe or face palm, like suggestions to "keep the money in the country."
Such threads are more conducive to endless bumping and arguments that splinter into a thousand directions at once. I'm guessing the most popular thread possible would be one with the thread title "post how you think the world should be run and why everyone else is wrong (proper debate)" and an empty OP. I appreciated the above... No, trillions of dollars of debt isn't bad at all. It's just a scam being manufactured by the republicans! It's well known in more educated circles that you can increase debt indefinitely and never have to worry about actually paying it off. There really is such a thing as a free lunch. Unfortunately, Fox News and talk radio keep propagandizing the American people into mind control, causing them to espouse ideas which are contrary to their obvious self interest. If the evil banks who are sucking the money out of poor old widows grew a conscience or were whipped into shape by the state, things would be so much better. Fixing our tax loopholes would eliminate all debt. Oh, and Cheney and Halliburton have to go too, because they send us to wars we don't want to be in. If you guys don't believe me, there's this really cool show called the Daily Show where they teach you this kind of stuff, you should check it out. But I would've thought the right response to your complaint would've been to provide the facts and data in an impartial manner, and then draw reasonable conclusions from it, which you would acknowledge as your own. If you, like me, don't have the time or interest in debating US economic policy in this thread, it would've been more polite to simply take a pass than to tar all opinions with the same silly brush. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210665My thread is the one the OP labels "troll bait" that's filled with sources and actual data. There's the facts I can offer you. Unfortunately, I can't say I offered them in an impartial manner. I have a very clear opinion on the matter, which is essentially a prerequisite for "debates." Fair enough. I responded to your post in this thread without knowing your full posting history, and I agree that your previous OP is well done, though, as you concede, perhaps a little leaning.
But I think this thread does cover a different topic, even if the title doesn't directly. Obviously the big issue right now is the debt ceiling debate, which wasn't being debated when you made your initial OP. So it's a different discussion, even if the underlying theme is the same.
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there is no "proper debate" the issue is so outrageous. Basically anyone who thinks the debt ceiling shouldn't be raised is a complete lunatic who is so far out of touch with reality it's not even funny..
end of story.
The whole "debate"... it's all politically motivated... and the only reason it's an issue is because republicans are so scared of pissing off that group of fringe lunatics that call themselves the tea party. A group of people who are completely fixated on not raising ANY taxes whatsoever and putting spending levels back to what they were in 1965 no matter what the cost.. it's like dealing with a bunch of two year olds who have no idea what's really going on..
the whole crop of "freshmen republican" tea party backed representatives are really screwing up Washington. Even John Boehner is getting fed up with them, he told them they all need to "get their asses in line" today. Pretty much every sane republican who wasn't voted in by the tea party has come out and said how critical it is to raise the debt ceiling.. yet this group of tea party babies continue to throw their little temper tantrum till they get their way.. it's hilarious, pathetic and extremely frustrating all at the same time..
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On July 29 2011 02:01 dudeman001 wrote: I wouldn't go so far as to say they're corrupt, but they're so incompetent and closed-minded that the entire idea of compromise ridiculed. I'd call myself more Republican than Democrat, but I can still truly respect Obama from trying to get a compromise through, while the far left is criticizing him for backing off on issues. His own party is attacking him for compromise, ffs. If the debt deal was a simple issue it wouldn't be this big of a problem, but it is a big deal and so compromise HAS to be made. Unfortunately the people elected aren't the same people that are willing to go down that road.
It has less to do with "incompetence" and more to do with the fact that it will not be popular with voters.
Voters tend to love political rhetoric up until the point where it affects them. I seriously doubt they'll enjoy the spending cuts. Unfortunately the American public have a tendency on focusing on the short term "waaa this is hurting me this sucks" negative consequences and forgetting completely/ignoring what happened beforehand (look no further than 9/11 and the TSA).
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On July 29 2011 02:33 stk01001 wrote: there is no "proper debate" the issue is so outrageous. Basically anyone who thinks the debt ceiling shouldn't be raised is a complete lunatic who is so far out of touch with reality it's not even funny..
end of story.
The whole debate"... it's all politically motivated... and the only reason it's an issue is because republicans are so scared of pissing off that group of fringe lunatics that call themselves the tea party. A group of people who are completely fixated on not raising ANY taxes whatsoever and putting spending levels back to what they were in 1965 no matter what the cost.. it's like dealing with a bunch of two year olds who have no idea what's really going on..
Ah, political hackery at its finest. Blame it all on the republicans/tea party!
Yes, let's spend ourselves into oblivion and have even larger problems down the road. Brillian plan. Taxes do need to be adjusted, but whatever is done in that arena will necessary pale in comparison to the spending cuts that have to be made. Again: We're running $1.4 trillion annual deficits. The only way to fix that is to significantly cut spending.
I also disagree that it's undebatable as to whether the debt ceiling should even be raised. Given the refusal of our politicians to make any meaningful effort to getting our fiscal house in order, I'm starting to like the idea of letting the markets and legal limits force them to do it now. The alternative is to kick the can down the road a little bit farther, when instead of being confronted with a $15 trillion problem, we'll be facing a $17 or even $20 trillion problem. Let's just get it over with. S&P has already made it clear that we're going to eat a bond ratings downgrade, regardless of whether we raise the debt ceiling, unless significant progress is made towards reducing the budget deficit. Boehner's plan doesn't do it, and the democrats have demonstrated zero inclination to doing it themselves.
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On July 29 2011 02:49 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 02:33 stk01001 wrote: there is no "proper debate" the issue is so outrageous. Basically anyone who thinks the debt ceiling shouldn't be raised is a complete lunatic who is so far out of touch with reality it's not even funny..
end of story.
The whole debate"... it's all politically motivated... and the only reason it's an issue is because republicans are so scared of pissing off that group of fringe lunatics that call themselves the tea party. A group of people who are completely fixated on not raising ANY taxes whatsoever and putting spending levels back to what they were in 1965 no matter what the cost.. it's like dealing with a bunch of two year olds who have no idea what's really going on.. Ah, political hackery at its finest. Blame it all on the republicans/tea party! Yes, let's spend ourselves into oblivion and have even larger problems down the road. Brillian plan. Taxes do need to be adjusted, but whatever is done in that arena will necessary pale in comparison to the spending cuts that have to be made. Again: We're running $1.4 trillion annual deficits. The only way to fix that is to significantly cut spending. I also disagree that it's undebatable as to whether the debt ceiling should even be raised. Given the refusal of our politicians to make any meaningful effort to getting our fiscal house in order, I'm starting to like the idea of letting the markets and legal limits force them to do it now. The alternative is to kick the can down the road a little bit farther, when instead of being confronted with a $15 trillion problem, we'll be facing a $17 or even $20 trillion problem. Let's just get it over with. S&P has already made it clear that we're going to eat a bond ratings downgrade, regardless of whether we raise the debt ceiling, unless significant progress is made towards reducing the budget deficit. Boehner's plan doesn't do it, and the democrats have demonstrated zero inclination to doing it themselves.
here's a great quote from the Wall Street Journal.. which is considered a "conservative" leaning publication. So this is from a perspective on the right:
"...The idea seems to be that if the House GOP refuses to raise the debt ceiling, a default crisis or gradual government shutdown will ensue, and the public will turn en masse against . . . Barack Obama. The Republican House that failed to raise the debt ceiling would somehow escape all blame. Then Democrats would have no choice but to pass a balanced-budget amendment and reform entitlements, and the tea-party Hobbits could return to Middle Earth having defeated Mordor. This is the kind of crack political thinking that turned Sharron Angle and Christine O'Donnell into GOP Senate nominees. The reality is that the debt limit will be raised one way or another, and the only issue now is with how much fiscal reform and what political fallout."
and don't say the democrats haven't offered their own plans. Harry Reid has put forth multiple plans (Reid's plan actually saves more than Boehner's in the long run lol), it's just impossible to get them passed through the house because of the said lunatics in above editorial..
don't see how you can say this debacle isn't the tea party's fault with a straight face.. lol..
if the tea party didn't exist this wouldn't be an issue, and the celing would get raised without incident, just like it has been done in.. you know... EVERY SINGLE OTHER PRESIDENCY IN HISTORY.. without issue.. but you know since it's Obama... of course they can't let him do it.. yea..
but they didn't have a problem when the Bush administration was overseeing the largest increase of the deficit in US history.. no that wasn't a big deal..
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So a group doesn't want to raise taxes Another group doesn't want to cut expending Both are needed non gets done? Is that right?
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