Does anyone remember that George W. Bush ran on a platform of overhauling the bloated monstrosity that is the tax system? Whatever happened to that?
Oh yeah, reforming the tax system/ending subsidies of inefficient businesses/etc is political suicide since you'd be cutting off all the loopholes that corporate welfare bums rely on to evade taxes altogether. You'd think there would be somebody who was principled enough to fall on his sword in order to get what needs to be done done, but when it takes millions of dollars to even consider running for office that's a bit too much to sacrifice for the good of the country. Where's a martyr when you need one?
On July 29 2011 02:33 stk01001 wrote: there is no "proper debate" the issue is so outrageous. Basically anyone who thinks the debt ceiling shouldn't be raised is a complete lunatic who is so far out of touch with reality it's not even funny..
end of story.
The whole debate"... it's all politically motivated... and the only reason it's an issue is because republicans are so scared of pissing off that group of fringe lunatics that call themselves the tea party. A group of people who are completely fixated on not raising ANY taxes whatsoever and putting spending levels back to what they were in 1965 no matter what the cost.. it's like dealing with a bunch of two year olds who have no idea what's really going on..
Ah, political hackery at its finest. Blame it all on the republicans/tea party!
Yes, let's spend ourselves into oblivion and have even larger problems down the road. Brillian plan. Taxes do need to be adjusted, but whatever is done in that arena will necessary pale in comparison to the spending cuts that have to be made. Again: We're running $1.4 trillion annual deficits. The only way to fix that is to significantly cut spending.
I also disagree that it's undebatable as to whether the debt ceiling should even be raised. Given the refusal of our politicians to make any meaningful effort to getting our fiscal house in order, I'm starting to like the idea of letting the markets and legal limits force them to do it now. The alternative is to kick the can down the road a little bit farther, when instead of being confronted with a $15 trillion problem, we'll be facing a $17 or even $20 trillion problem. Let's just get it over with. S&P has already made it clear that we're going to eat a bond ratings downgrade, regardless of whether we raise the debt ceiling, unless significant progress is made towards reducing the budget deficit. Boehner's plan doesn't do it, and the democrats have demonstrated zero inclination to doing it themselves.
here's a great quote from the Wall Street Journal.. which is considered a "conservative" leaning publication. So this is from a perspective on the right:
"...The idea seems to be that if the House GOP refuses to raise the debt ceiling, a default crisis or gradual government shutdown will ensue, and the public will turn en masse against . . . Barack Obama. The Republican House that failed to raise the debt ceiling would somehow escape all blame. Then Democrats would have no choice but to pass a balanced-budget amendment and reform entitlements, and the tea-party Hobbits could return to Middle Earth having defeated Mordor. This is the kind of crack political thinking that turned Sharron Angle and Christine O'Donnell into GOP Senate nominees. The reality is that the debt limit will be raised one way or another, and the only issue now is with how much fiscal reform and what political fallout."
and don't say the democrats haven't offered their own plans. Harry Reid has put forth multiple plans, it's just impossible to get them passed through the house because of the said lunatics in above editorial..
don't see how you can say this debacle isn't the tea party's fault with a straight face.. lol..
See, the difference is that you are playing politics and I am not. I don't care who takes the "blame." I just want the problem fixed, and the fastest way to get it fixed seems to be leaving the debt ceiling where it is because basically no politicians have demonstrated any willingness to step to the plate.
And don't give me any crap about Reid or Obama putting forth plans. Where are they? Top democrats were saying yesterday that they haven't even seen Reid's plan. The CBO scored a proposal of ideas put together by Reid, but there is no drafted legislation. Obama has never even offered a plan other than recommending that the debt ceiling simply be raised in a "clean bill." He is completely AWOL.
On July 29 2011 02:33 stk01001 wrote: there is no "proper debate" the issue is so outrageous. Basically anyone who thinks the debt ceiling shouldn't be raised is a complete lunatic who is so far out of touch with reality it's not even funny..
end of story.
The whole debate"... it's all politically motivated... and the only reason it's an issue is because republicans are so scared of pissing off that group of fringe lunatics that call themselves the tea party. A group of people who are completely fixated on not raising ANY taxes whatsoever and putting spending levels back to what they were in 1965 no matter what the cost.. it's like dealing with a bunch of two year olds who have no idea what's really going on..
Ah, political hackery at its finest. Blame it all on the republicans/tea party!
Yes, let's spend ourselves into oblivion and have even larger problems down the road. Brillian plan. Taxes do need to be adjusted, but whatever is done in that arena will necessary pale in comparison to the spending cuts that have to be made. Again: We're running $1.4 trillion annual deficits. The only way to fix that is to significantly cut spending.
I also disagree that it's undebatable as to whether the debt ceiling should even be raised. Given the refusal of our politicians to make any meaningful effort to getting our fiscal house in order, I'm starting to like the idea of letting the markets and legal limits force them to do it now. The alternative is to kick the can down the road a little bit farther, when instead of being confronted with a $15 trillion problem, we'll be facing a $17 or even $20 trillion problem. Let's just get it over with. S&P has already made it clear that we're going to eat a bond ratings downgrade, regardless of whether we raise the debt ceiling, unless significant progress is made towards reducing the budget deficit. Boehner's plan doesn't do it, and the democrats have demonstrated zero inclination to doing it themselves.
here's a great quote from the Wall Street Journal.. which is considered a "conservative" leaning publication. So this is from a perspective on the right:
"...The idea seems to be that if the House GOP refuses to raise the debt ceiling, a default crisis or gradual government shutdown will ensue, and the public will turn en masse against . . . Barack Obama. The Republican House that failed to raise the debt ceiling would somehow escape all blame. Then Democrats would have no choice but to pass a balanced-budget amendment and reform entitlements, and the tea-party Hobbits could return to Middle Earth having defeated Mordor. This is the kind of crack political thinking that turned Sharron Angle and Christine O'Donnell into GOP Senate nominees. The reality is that the debt limit will be raised one way or another, and the only issue now is with how much fiscal reform and what political fallout."
and don't say the democrats haven't offered their own plans. Harry Reid has put forth multiple plans, it's just impossible to get them passed through the house because of the said lunatics in above editorial..
don't see how you can say this debacle isn't the tea party's fault with a straight face.. lol..
See, the difference is that you are playing politics and I am not. I don't care who takes the "blame." I just want the problem fixed, and the fastest way to get it fixed seems to be leaving the debt ceiling where it is because basically no politicians have demonstrated any willingness to step to the plate.
And don't give me any crap about Reid or Obama putting forth plans. Where are they? Top democrats were saying yesterday that they haven't even seen Reid's plan. The CBO scored a proposal of ideas put together by Reid, but there is no drafted legislation. Obama has never even offered a plan other than recommending that the debt ceiling simply be raised in a "clean bill." He is completely AWOL.
you obviously do care who takes the blame.. you said in your last post saracastically "yea lets just blame the republicans/tea party".. when they in fact ARE blatantley responsible.
You also claimed the democrats haven't offered any solutions of their own, another statment that's flat out wrong.
You just can't admit you don't know what your talking about.
The fact that you think not raising the debt ceiling is a good idea just proves that. Your totally oblivious to the impact it will have on the world economy and the value of the US dollar (any economist will tell you the consequences would be disasterous, all of the top bank CEO's have already come out and said the same thing). This is basic economics here, even Ronald Reagen talked about how crucial it was for the US not to default on it's debt obligations. And don't act like I don't want the problem to be fixed. Of course I want the problem to be fixed, and the way to fix the problem is to stop listening to the tea party. That's my whole point. Really I'm not going to bother aruging with you anymore it's pointless..
I love how simply stating facts means your "playing politics" lol
On July 29 2011 02:33 stk01001 wrote: there is no "proper debate" the issue is so outrageous. Basically anyone who thinks the debt ceiling shouldn't be raised is a complete lunatic who is so far out of touch with reality it's not even funny..
end of story.
The whole debate"... it's all politically motivated... and the only reason it's an issue is because republicans are so scared of pissing off that group of fringe lunatics that call themselves the tea party. A group of people who are completely fixated on not raising ANY taxes whatsoever and putting spending levels back to what they were in 1965 no matter what the cost.. it's like dealing with a bunch of two year olds who have no idea what's really going on..
Ah, political hackery at its finest. Blame it all on the republicans/tea party!
Yes, let's spend ourselves into oblivion and have even larger problems down the road. Brillian plan. Taxes do need to be adjusted, but whatever is done in that arena will necessary pale in comparison to the spending cuts that have to be made. Again: We're running $1.4 trillion annual deficits. The only way to fix that is to significantly cut spending.
I also disagree that it's undebatable as to whether the debt ceiling should even be raised. Given the refusal of our politicians to make any meaningful effort to getting our fiscal house in order, I'm starting to like the idea of letting the markets and legal limits force them to do it now. The alternative is to kick the can down the road a little bit farther, when instead of being confronted with a $15 trillion problem, we'll be facing a $17 or even $20 trillion problem. Let's just get it over with. S&P has already made it clear that we're going to eat a bond ratings downgrade, regardless of whether we raise the debt ceiling, unless significant progress is made towards reducing the budget deficit. Boehner's plan doesn't do it, and the democrats have demonstrated zero inclination to doing it themselves.
here's a great quote from the Wall Street Journal.. which is considered a "conservative" leaning publication. So this is from a perspective on the right:
"...The idea seems to be that if the House GOP refuses to raise the debt ceiling, a default crisis or gradual government shutdown will ensue, and the public will turn en masse against . . . Barack Obama. The Republican House that failed to raise the debt ceiling would somehow escape all blame. Then Democrats would have no choice but to pass a balanced-budget amendment and reform entitlements, and the tea-party Hobbits could return to Middle Earth having defeated Mordor. This is the kind of crack political thinking that turned Sharron Angle and Christine O'Donnell into GOP Senate nominees. The reality is that the debt limit will be raised one way or another, and the only issue now is with how much fiscal reform and what political fallout."
and don't say the democrats haven't offered their own plans. Harry Reid has put forth multiple plans, it's just impossible to get them passed through the house because of the said lunatics in above editorial..
don't see how you can say this debacle isn't the tea party's fault with a straight face.. lol..
See, the difference is that you are playing politics and I am not. I don't care who takes the "blame." I just want the problem fixed, and the fastest way to get it fixed seems to be leaving the debt ceiling where it is because basically no politicians have demonstrated any willingness to step to the plate.
And don't give me any crap about Reid or Obama putting forth plans. Where are they? Top democrats were saying yesterday that they haven't even seen Reid's plan. The CBO scored a proposal of ideas put together by Reid, but there is no drafted legislation. Obama has never even offered a plan other than recommending that the debt ceiling simply be raised in a "clean bill." He is completely AWOL.
you obviously do care who takes the blame.. you said in your last post saracastically "yea lets just blame the republicans/tea party".. when they blatantley are responsible. You just can't admit you don't know what your talking about.
The fact that you think not raising the debt ceiling is a good idea just proves that. Your totally oblvious to the impact it will have on the world economy and the value of the US dollar. This is basic economics here, even Ronald Reagen talked about how crucial it was for the US not to default on it's debt obligations. And don't act like I don't want the problem to be fixed. Of course I want the problem to be fixed, and the way to fix the problem is to stop listening to the tea party. That's my whole point. Really I'm not going to bother aruging with you anymore it's pointless..
No, I know what the risks are. Failing to raise the debt ceiling will not result in default. The markets know this, which is why they aren't panicing. The federal government will still be collecting tax revenues as usual and have money to spend. The difference is that they won't have as much to spend. Funds will still be allocated to making debt payments, paying for military operations, and a slew of other critical programs. The social security trust fund will take care of social security obligations for the foreseeable future. Again, we're going to eat a ratings downgrade anyway. S&P has already said that they're going to downgrade us unless make a minimum of $4 trillion in cuts.
On July 29 2011 01:42 BlackFlag wrote: Has Canada also media outfits like fox news? I don't mean just right-wing and manipulative but also from size and the mass of people it reaches?
It would be hyperbolic to say National Post. No, there is no Fox News Canada. There is also no New Republic either. Again, Canada's not as bad as the States, but we're moving towards that, and it's troubling to me. The Toronto mayoral election and the federal election are good examples of this (Iggy's total mishandling of political rhetoric and PR, "socialist," etc.).
On July 29 2011 03:02 xDaunt wrote: I just want the problem fixed, and the fastest way to get it fixed seems to be leaving the debt ceiling where it is...
No, that would mean HOLLA @ U L8R UNITED STATES
On July 29 2011 03:02 xDaunt wrote: And don't give me any crap about Reid or Obama putting forth plans. Where are they?
On July 29 2011 03:02 xDaunt wrote: Obama has never even offered a plan other than recommending that the debt ceiling simply be raised in a "clean bill." He is completely AWOL.
It's not like he and Boehner were feverishly working toward some sort of "grand bargain" or anything before Cantor decided he wanted to be Speaker of the House.
On July 29 2011 02:33 stk01001 wrote: there is no "proper debate" the issue is so outrageous. Basically anyone who thinks the debt ceiling shouldn't be raised is a complete lunatic who is so far out of touch with reality it's not even funny..
end of story.
The whole debate"... it's all politically motivated... and the only reason it's an issue is because republicans are so scared of pissing off that group of fringe lunatics that call themselves the tea party. A group of people who are completely fixated on not raising ANY taxes whatsoever and putting spending levels back to what they were in 1965 no matter what the cost.. it's like dealing with a bunch of two year olds who have no idea what's really going on..
Ah, political hackery at its finest. Blame it all on the republicans/tea party!
Yes, let's spend ourselves into oblivion and have even larger problems down the road. Brillian plan. Taxes do need to be adjusted, but whatever is done in that arena will necessary pale in comparison to the spending cuts that have to be made. Again: We're running $1.4 trillion annual deficits. The only way to fix that is to significantly cut spending.
I also disagree that it's undebatable as to whether the debt ceiling should even be raised. Given the refusal of our politicians to make any meaningful effort to getting our fiscal house in order, I'm starting to like the idea of letting the markets and legal limits force them to do it now. The alternative is to kick the can down the road a little bit farther, when instead of being confronted with a $15 trillion problem, we'll be facing a $17 or even $20 trillion problem. Let's just get it over with. S&P has already made it clear that we're going to eat a bond ratings downgrade, regardless of whether we raise the debt ceiling, unless significant progress is made towards reducing the budget deficit. Boehner's plan doesn't do it, and the democrats have demonstrated zero inclination to doing it themselves.
here's a great quote from the Wall Street Journal.. which is considered a "conservative" leaning publication. So this is from a perspective on the right:
"...The idea seems to be that if the House GOP refuses to raise the debt ceiling, a default crisis or gradual government shutdown will ensue, and the public will turn en masse against . . . Barack Obama. The Republican House that failed to raise the debt ceiling would somehow escape all blame. Then Democrats would have no choice but to pass a balanced-budget amendment and reform entitlements, and the tea-party Hobbits could return to Middle Earth having defeated Mordor. This is the kind of crack political thinking that turned Sharron Angle and Christine O'Donnell into GOP Senate nominees. The reality is that the debt limit will be raised one way or another, and the only issue now is with how much fiscal reform and what political fallout."
and don't say the democrats haven't offered their own plans. Harry Reid has put forth multiple plans, it's just impossible to get them passed through the house because of the said lunatics in above editorial..
don't see how you can say this debacle isn't the tea party's fault with a straight face.. lol..
See, the difference is that you are playing politics and I am not. I don't care who takes the "blame." I just want the problem fixed, and the fastest way to get it fixed seems to be leaving the debt ceiling where it is because basically no politicians have demonstrated any willingness to step to the plate.
And don't give me any crap about Reid or Obama putting forth plans. Where are they? Top democrats were saying yesterday that they haven't even seen Reid's plan. The CBO scored a proposal of ideas put together by Reid, but there is no drafted legislation. Obama has never even offered a plan other than recommending that the debt ceiling simply be raised in a "clean bill." He is completely AWOL.
you obviously do care who takes the blame.. you said in your last post saracastically "yea lets just blame the republicans/tea party".. when they blatantley are responsible. You just can't admit you don't know what your talking about.
The fact that you think not raising the debt ceiling is a good idea just proves that. Your totally oblvious to the impact it will have on the world economy and the value of the US dollar. This is basic economics here, even Ronald Reagen talked about how crucial it was for the US not to default on it's debt obligations. And don't act like I don't want the problem to be fixed. Of course I want the problem to be fixed, and the way to fix the problem is to stop listening to the tea party. That's my whole point. Really I'm not going to bother aruging with you anymore it's pointless..
No, I know what the risks are. Failing to raise the debt ceiling will not result in default. The markets know this, which is why they aren't panicing. The federal government will still be collecting tax revenues as usual and have money to spend. The difference is that they won't have as much to spend. Funds will still be allocated to making debt payments, paying for military operations, and a slew of other critical programs. The social security trust fund will take care of social security obligations for the foreseeable future. Again, we're going to eat a ratings downgrade anyway. S&P has already said that they're going to downgrade us unless make a minimum of $4 trillion in cuts.
It will result in a recession. There will be a shortfall of $130 bil, that is enough out of the G in GDP to create an instant recession. The markets have been constantly assured that the debt ceiling will be raised, they seem to be getting nervous now.
Historic low in exchange rates from the dollar to the Swiss Franc, considered one of the most stable currencies. Everything will not be ok if we start defaulting on bills, we would lose over 5% of GDP instantly. That is a painful readjustment to try to make, especially with unemployment already over 9%.
Edit: GDP = Consumption + Investment + Government +/- Trade balance
Again, that Reid plan is just a set of ideas. It's meaningless at this point because there's no intention to offer it for a vote. Has the Senate made any effort to pass any legislation? Nope. Only Congress has. That's the problem
On July 29 2011 03:02 xDaunt wrote: Obama has never even offered a plan other than recommending that the debt ceiling simply be raised in a "clean bill." He is completely AWOL.
It's not like he and Boehner were feverishly working toward some sort of "grand bargain" or anything before Cantor decided he wanted to be Speaker of the House.
Again, that Reid plan is just a set of ideas. It's meaningless at this point because there's no intention to offer it for a vote. Has the Senate made any effort to pass any legislation? Nope. Only Congress has. That's the problem
On July 29 2011 03:02 xDaunt wrote: Obama has never even offered a plan other than recommending that the debt ceiling simply be raised in a "clean bill." He is completely AWOL.
It's not like he and Boehner were feverishly working toward some sort of "grand bargain" or anything before Cantor decided he wanted to be Speaker of the House.
There's also a Washington Post story out there confirming that the break down was Obama's fault.
Your source is a Joseph Curl op-ed? Do you even know who Joseph Curl is, or what he's previously written? Obviously not, that piece is one of the least compelling articles I've seen in a while.
Again, that Reid plan is just a set of ideas. It's meaningless at this point because there's no intention to offer it for a vote. Has the Senate made any effort to pass any legislation? Nope. Only Congress has. That's the problem
On July 29 2011 03:22 jon arbuckle wrote:
On July 29 2011 03:02 xDaunt wrote: Obama has never even offered a plan other than recommending that the debt ceiling simply be raised in a "clean bill." He is completely AWOL.
It's not like he and Boehner were feverishly working toward some sort of "grand bargain" or anything before Cantor decided he wanted to be Speaker of the House.
There's also a Washington Post story out there confirming that the break down was Obama's fault.
Your source is a Joseph Curl op-ed? Do you even know who Joseph Curl is, or what he's previously written? Obviously not, that piece is one of the least compelling articles I've seen in a while.
I presume that you'll say something similar about the author of this article, but whatever. Your loss.
Again, that Reid plan is just a set of ideas. It's meaningless at this point because there's no intention to offer it for a vote. Has the Senate made any effort to pass any legislation? Nope. Only Congress has. That's the problem
On July 29 2011 03:22 jon arbuckle wrote:
On July 29 2011 03:02 xDaunt wrote: Obama has never even offered a plan other than recommending that the debt ceiling simply be raised in a "clean bill." He is completely AWOL.
It's not like he and Boehner were feverishly working toward some sort of "grand bargain" or anything before Cantor decided he wanted to be Speaker of the House.
There's also a Washington Post story out there confirming that the break down was Obama's fault.
Your source is a Joseph Curl op-ed? Do you even know who Joseph Curl is, or what he's previously written? Obviously not, that piece is one of the least compelling articles I've seen in a while.
I presume that you'll say something similar about the author of this article, but whatever. Your loss.
Rofl, it only gets worse, your source material consists of two incredibly prolific neo-con bloggers who are notorious for their unsubstantiated conservative views. You do realize that Jennifer Rubin was one of the journalists who immediately said that the Norway attacks were carried out by Islamic Jihadists. In other words, anyone looking for a mediated, bi-partisan view of things stays far away from both Jennifer Rubin and Joseph Curl. Cite something that isn't a blog or op-ed by a neo-con tea partyer and we'll talk.
On July 29 2011 02:33 stk01001 wrote: there is no "proper debate" the issue is so outrageous. Basically anyone who thinks the debt ceiling shouldn't be raised is a complete lunatic who is so far out of touch with reality it's not even funny..
end of story.
The whole debate"... it's all politically motivated... and the only reason it's an issue is because republicans are so scared of pissing off that group of fringe lunatics that call themselves the tea party. A group of people who are completely fixated on not raising ANY taxes whatsoever and putting spending levels back to what they were in 1965 no matter what the cost.. it's like dealing with a bunch of two year olds who have no idea what's really going on..
Ah, political hackery at its finest. Blame it all on the republicans/tea party!
Yes, let's spend ourselves into oblivion and have even larger problems down the road. Brillian plan. Taxes do need to be adjusted, but whatever is done in that arena will necessary pale in comparison to the spending cuts that have to be made. Again: We're running $1.4 trillion annual deficits. The only way to fix that is to significantly cut spending.
I also disagree that it's undebatable as to whether the debt ceiling should even be raised. Given the refusal of our politicians to make any meaningful effort to getting our fiscal house in order, I'm starting to like the idea of letting the markets and legal limits force them to do it now. The alternative is to kick the can down the road a little bit farther, when instead of being confronted with a $15 trillion problem, we'll be facing a $17 or even $20 trillion problem. Let's just get it over with. S&P has already made it clear that we're going to eat a bond ratings downgrade, regardless of whether we raise the debt ceiling, unless significant progress is made towards reducing the budget deficit. Boehner's plan doesn't do it, and the democrats have demonstrated zero inclination to doing it themselves.
here's a great quote from the Wall Street Journal.. which is considered a "conservative" leaning publication. So this is from a perspective on the right:
"...The idea seems to be that if the House GOP refuses to raise the debt ceiling, a default crisis or gradual government shutdown will ensue, and the public will turn en masse against . . . Barack Obama. The Republican House that failed to raise the debt ceiling would somehow escape all blame. Then Democrats would have no choice but to pass a balanced-budget amendment and reform entitlements, and the tea-party Hobbits could return to Middle Earth having defeated Mordor. This is the kind of crack political thinking that turned Sharron Angle and Christine O'Donnell into GOP Senate nominees. The reality is that the debt limit will be raised one way or another, and the only issue now is with how much fiscal reform and what political fallout."
and don't say the democrats haven't offered their own plans. Harry Reid has put forth multiple plans, it's just impossible to get them passed through the house because of the said lunatics in above editorial..
don't see how you can say this debacle isn't the tea party's fault with a straight face.. lol..
See, the difference is that you are playing politics and I am not. I don't care who takes the "blame." I just want the problem fixed, and the fastest way to get it fixed seems to be leaving the debt ceiling where it is because basically no politicians have demonstrated any willingness to step to the plate.
And don't give me any crap about Reid or Obama putting forth plans. Where are they? Top democrats were saying yesterday that they haven't even seen Reid's plan. The CBO scored a proposal of ideas put together by Reid, but there is no drafted legislation. Obama has never even offered a plan other than recommending that the debt ceiling simply be raised in a "clean bill." He is completely AWOL.
you obviously do care who takes the blame.. you said in your last post saracastically "yea lets just blame the republicans/tea party".. when they blatantley are responsible. You just can't admit you don't know what your talking about.
The fact that you think not raising the debt ceiling is a good idea just proves that. Your totally oblvious to the impact it will have on the world economy and the value of the US dollar. This is basic economics here, even Ronald Reagen talked about how crucial it was for the US not to default on it's debt obligations. And don't act like I don't want the problem to be fixed. Of course I want the problem to be fixed, and the way to fix the problem is to stop listening to the tea party. That's my whole point. Really I'm not going to bother aruging with you anymore it's pointless..
No, I know what the risks are. Failing to raise the debt ceiling will not result in default. The markets know this, which is why they aren't panicing. The federal government will still be collecting tax revenues as usual and have money to spend. The difference is that they won't have as much to spend. Funds will still be allocated to making debt payments, paying for military operations, and a slew of other critical programs. The social security trust fund will take care of social security obligations for the foreseeable future. Again, we're going to eat a ratings downgrade anyway. S&P has already said that they're going to downgrade us unless make a minimum of $4 trillion in cuts.
It will result in a recession. There will be a shortfall of $130 bil, that is enough out of the G in GDP to create an instant recession. The markets have been constantly assured that the debt ceiling will be raised, they seem to be getting nervous now.
Historic low in exchange rates from the dollar to the Swiss Franc, considered one of the most stable currencies. Everything will not be ok if we start defaulting on bills, we would lose over 5% of GDP instantly. That is a painful readjustment to try to make, especially with unemployment already over 9%.
Edit: GDP = Consumption + Investment + Government +/- Trade balance
I disagree that there necessarily would be a recession. For one, just look at the various states that have enacted massive budget cuts recently. None of them have gone off of a cliff.
Second, and more importantly, the cuts MUST HAPPEN eventually. Have you completely missed the part where S&P has basically demanded $4 trillion in cuts over ten years at a minimum to avoid a ratings downgrade? There will be cuts, it's just a matter of when, and how much we eventually will have to cut.
This is my whole point about it possibly being better to let the debt ceiling stay where it is to force action now. The faster that the government actually tackles the problem, the smaller that the problem will be, and the LESS that we will have to cut.
On July 29 2011 02:33 stk01001 wrote: there is no "proper debate" the issue is so outrageous. Basically anyone who thinks the debt ceiling shouldn't be raised is a complete lunatic who is so far out of touch with reality it's not even funny..
end of story.
The whole debate"... it's all politically motivated... and the only reason it's an issue is because republicans are so scared of pissing off that group of fringe lunatics that call themselves the tea party. A group of people who are completely fixated on not raising ANY taxes whatsoever and putting spending levels back to what they were in 1965 no matter what the cost.. it's like dealing with a bunch of two year olds who have no idea what's really going on..
Ah, political hackery at its finest. Blame it all on the republicans/tea party!
Yes, let's spend ourselves into oblivion and have even larger problems down the road. Brillian plan. Taxes do need to be adjusted, but whatever is done in that arena will necessary pale in comparison to the spending cuts that have to be made. Again: We're running $1.4 trillion annual deficits. The only way to fix that is to significantly cut spending.
I also disagree that it's undebatable as to whether the debt ceiling should even be raised. Given the refusal of our politicians to make any meaningful effort to getting our fiscal house in order, I'm starting to like the idea of letting the markets and legal limits force them to do it now. The alternative is to kick the can down the road a little bit farther, when instead of being confronted with a $15 trillion problem, we'll be facing a $17 or even $20 trillion problem. Let's just get it over with. S&P has already made it clear that we're going to eat a bond ratings downgrade, regardless of whether we raise the debt ceiling, unless significant progress is made towards reducing the budget deficit. Boehner's plan doesn't do it, and the democrats have demonstrated zero inclination to doing it themselves.
here's a great quote from the Wall Street Journal.. which is considered a "conservative" leaning publication. So this is from a perspective on the right:
"...The idea seems to be that if the House GOP refuses to raise the debt ceiling, a default crisis or gradual government shutdown will ensue, and the public will turn en masse against . . . Barack Obama. The Republican House that failed to raise the debt ceiling would somehow escape all blame. Then Democrats would have no choice but to pass a balanced-budget amendment and reform entitlements, and the tea-party Hobbits could return to Middle Earth having defeated Mordor. This is the kind of crack political thinking that turned Sharron Angle and Christine O'Donnell into GOP Senate nominees. The reality is that the debt limit will be raised one way or another, and the only issue now is with how much fiscal reform and what political fallout."
and don't say the democrats haven't offered their own plans. Harry Reid has put forth multiple plans, it's just impossible to get them passed through the house because of the said lunatics in above editorial..
don't see how you can say this debacle isn't the tea party's fault with a straight face.. lol..
See, the difference is that you are playing politics and I am not. I don't care who takes the "blame." I just want the problem fixed, and the fastest way to get it fixed seems to be leaving the debt ceiling where it is because basically no politicians have demonstrated any willingness to step to the plate.
And don't give me any crap about Reid or Obama putting forth plans. Where are they? Top democrats were saying yesterday that they haven't even seen Reid's plan. The CBO scored a proposal of ideas put together by Reid, but there is no drafted legislation. Obama has never even offered a plan other than recommending that the debt ceiling simply be raised in a "clean bill." He is completely AWOL.
you obviously do care who takes the blame.. you said in your last post saracastically "yea lets just blame the republicans/tea party".. when they blatantley are responsible. You just can't admit you don't know what your talking about.
The fact that you think not raising the debt ceiling is a good idea just proves that. Your totally oblvious to the impact it will have on the world economy and the value of the US dollar. This is basic economics here, even Ronald Reagen talked about how crucial it was for the US not to default on it's debt obligations. And don't act like I don't want the problem to be fixed. Of course I want the problem to be fixed, and the way to fix the problem is to stop listening to the tea party. That's my whole point. Really I'm not going to bother aruging with you anymore it's pointless..
No, I know what the risks are. Failing to raise the debt ceiling will not result in default. The markets know this, which is why they aren't panicing. The federal government will still be collecting tax revenues as usual and have money to spend. The difference is that they won't have as much to spend. Funds will still be allocated to making debt payments, paying for military operations, and a slew of other critical programs. The social security trust fund will take care of social security obligations for the foreseeable future. Again, we're going to eat a ratings downgrade anyway. S&P has already said that they're going to downgrade us unless make a minimum of $4 trillion in cuts.
It will result in a recession. There will be a shortfall of $130 bil, that is enough out of the G in GDP to create an instant recession. The markets have been constantly assured that the debt ceiling will be raised, they seem to be getting nervous now.
Historic low in exchange rates from the dollar to the Swiss Franc, considered one of the most stable currencies. Everything will not be ok if we start defaulting on bills, we would lose over 5% of GDP instantly. That is a painful readjustment to try to make, especially with unemployment already over 9%.
Edit: GDP = Consumption + Investment + Government +/- Trade balance
I disagree that there necessarily would be a recession. For one, just look at the various states that have enacted massive budget cuts recently. None of them have gone off of a cliff.
Second, and more importantly, the cuts MUST HAPPEN eventually. Have you completely missed the part where S&P has basically demanded $4 trillion in cuts over ten years at a minimum to avoid a ratings downgrade? There will be cuts, it's just a matter of when, and how much we eventually will have to cut.
This is my whole point about it possibly being better to let the debt ceiling stay where it is to force action now. The faster that the government actually tackles the problem, the smaller that the problem will be, and the LESS that we will have to cut.
I'm not talking about budget cuts and a debt ceiling increase,I don't think that would cause a recession either. I'm talking about not raising the debt ceiling at all. That will cause a recession, it will cut $130 billion out of current GDP projections in August, that is more than 5% of monthly GDP, it is a significant contraction to put it lightly.
If we fail to raise the debt ceiling at all we still get a downgrade, additionally because the US rolls over much of its debt on a 1 to 5 year basis, it translates into additional expenditures on interest almost immediately. Edit: We could roll over existing debt, I don't know why I thought we couldn't for a second.
Also, I found an article as reputable as yours but blaming Boehner.
On July 29 2011 02:33 stk01001 wrote: there is no "proper debate" the issue is so outrageous. Basically anyone who thinks the debt ceiling shouldn't be raised is a complete lunatic who is so far out of touch with reality it's not even funny..
end of story.
The whole debate"... it's all politically motivated... and the only reason it's an issue is because republicans are so scared of pissing off that group of fringe lunatics that call themselves the tea party. A group of people who are completely fixated on not raising ANY taxes whatsoever and putting spending levels back to what they were in 1965 no matter what the cost.. it's like dealing with a bunch of two year olds who have no idea what's really going on..
Ah, political hackery at its finest. Blame it all on the republicans/tea party!
Yes, let's spend ourselves into oblivion and have even larger problems down the road. Brillian plan. Taxes do need to be adjusted, but whatever is done in that arena will necessary pale in comparison to the spending cuts that have to be made. Again: We're running $1.4 trillion annual deficits. The only way to fix that is to significantly cut spending.
I also disagree that it's undebatable as to whether the debt ceiling should even be raised. Given the refusal of our politicians to make any meaningful effort to getting our fiscal house in order, I'm starting to like the idea of letting the markets and legal limits force them to do it now. The alternative is to kick the can down the road a little bit farther, when instead of being confronted with a $15 trillion problem, we'll be facing a $17 or even $20 trillion problem. Let's just get it over with. S&P has already made it clear that we're going to eat a bond ratings downgrade, regardless of whether we raise the debt ceiling, unless significant progress is made towards reducing the budget deficit. Boehner's plan doesn't do it, and the democrats have demonstrated zero inclination to doing it themselves.
here's a great quote from the Wall Street Journal.. which is considered a "conservative" leaning publication. So this is from a perspective on the right:
"...The idea seems to be that if the House GOP refuses to raise the debt ceiling, a default crisis or gradual government shutdown will ensue, and the public will turn en masse against . . . Barack Obama. The Republican House that failed to raise the debt ceiling would somehow escape all blame. Then Democrats would have no choice but to pass a balanced-budget amendment and reform entitlements, and the tea-party Hobbits could return to Middle Earth having defeated Mordor. This is the kind of crack political thinking that turned Sharron Angle and Christine O'Donnell into GOP Senate nominees. The reality is that the debt limit will be raised one way or another, and the only issue now is with how much fiscal reform and what political fallout."
and don't say the democrats haven't offered their own plans. Harry Reid has put forth multiple plans, it's just impossible to get them passed through the house because of the said lunatics in above editorial..
don't see how you can say this debacle isn't the tea party's fault with a straight face.. lol..
See, the difference is that you are playing politics and I am not. I don't care who takes the "blame." I just want the problem fixed, and the fastest way to get it fixed seems to be leaving the debt ceiling where it is because basically no politicians have demonstrated any willingness to step to the plate.
And don't give me any crap about Reid or Obama putting forth plans. Where are they? Top democrats were saying yesterday that they haven't even seen Reid's plan. The CBO scored a proposal of ideas put together by Reid, but there is no drafted legislation. Obama has never even offered a plan other than recommending that the debt ceiling simply be raised in a "clean bill." He is completely AWOL.
you obviously do care who takes the blame.. you said in your last post saracastically "yea lets just blame the republicans/tea party".. when they blatantley are responsible. You just can't admit you don't know what your talking about.
The fact that you think not raising the debt ceiling is a good idea just proves that. Your totally oblvious to the impact it will have on the world economy and the value of the US dollar. This is basic economics here, even Ronald Reagen talked about how crucial it was for the US not to default on it's debt obligations. And don't act like I don't want the problem to be fixed. Of course I want the problem to be fixed, and the way to fix the problem is to stop listening to the tea party. That's my whole point. Really I'm not going to bother aruging with you anymore it's pointless..
No, I know what the risks are. Failing to raise the debt ceiling will not result in default. The markets know this, which is why they aren't panicing. The federal government will still be collecting tax revenues as usual and have money to spend. The difference is that they won't have as much to spend. Funds will still be allocated to making debt payments, paying for military operations, and a slew of other critical programs. The social security trust fund will take care of social security obligations for the foreseeable future. Again, we're going to eat a ratings downgrade anyway. S&P has already said that they're going to downgrade us unless make a minimum of $4 trillion in cuts.
It will result in a recession. There will be a shortfall of $130 bil, that is enough out of the G in GDP to create an instant recession. The markets have been constantly assured that the debt ceiling will be raised, they seem to be getting nervous now.
Historic low in exchange rates from the dollar to the Swiss Franc, considered one of the most stable currencies. Everything will not be ok if we start defaulting on bills, we would lose over 5% of GDP instantly. That is a painful readjustment to try to make, especially with unemployment already over 9%.
Edit: GDP = Consumption + Investment + Government +/- Trade balance
I disagree that there necessarily would be a recession. For one, just look at the various states that have enacted massive budget cuts recently. None of them have gone off of a cliff.
Second, and more importantly, the cuts MUST HAPPEN eventually. Have you completely missed the part where S&P has basically demanded $4 trillion in cuts over ten years at a minimum to avoid a ratings downgrade? There will be cuts, it's just a matter of when, and how much we eventually will have to cut.
This is my whole point about it possibly being better to let the debt ceiling stay where it is to force action now. The faster that the government actually tackles the problem, the smaller that the problem will be, and the LESS that we will have to cut.
I have to say, that even without a fall in GDP, the international economic-political capital of the United States, while high, will evaporate the moment the ceiling isn't raised. Moody's has OPENLY STATED that it would drop the US's credit rating from AAA to D, and the repercussions from that would be the loss of, at the very least, a couple TRILLION dollars over the next 5 years.
Saying that leaving the ceiling where it is would force the government to act is true, but it's using an Archon Toilet to kill a couple dozen zerglings in the face of a 200 food Zerg army bearing down on you.
The simple act of letting the ceiling be creates so many more problems that your plan kind've falls through... spectacularly.
If America is so great and works so hard and is so profitable and mainstream why do we have a debt that is impossible to solve? America is supposed to be a place of intelligence and solutions to great issues yet here we are creating one of the biggest issues on the planet.
Here is some food for thought, how do Americans deserve their necessities anymore than people in other countries? Country A in Africa has X debt lower than America's debt yet their country is dissolving and can't even feed its own people, yet Country B Which is America has a Debt 100x greater than Country A, yet somehow can afford to feed its people and sustain when it owes more money than it earns? It doesn't make sense at least logical balanced sense.
"You do that by cutting things you don't need like the Environmental Protection Agency," Washington D.C. tea party organizer Joanne Abbot said. "Just think of all the money that we would save. It doesn't do anything," she added."
Fucking.Brilliant.
I can't even believe I just read that. This is why it's scary that these people are taken seriously.
On July 29 2011 04:46 Spacely wrote: If America is so great and works so hard and is so profitable and mainstream why do we have a debt that is impossible to solve? America is supposed to be a place of intelligence and solutions to great issues yet here we are creating one of the biggest issues on the planet.
Here is some food for thought, how do Americans deserve their necessities anymore than people in other countries? Country A in Africa has X debt lower than America's debt yet their country is dissolving and can't even feed its own people, yet Country B Which is America has a Debt 100x greater than Country A, yet somehow can afford to feed its people and sustain when it owes more money than it earns? It doesn't make sense at least logical balanced sense.
Read the entire thread, it explains how the nature of debt and how it works in a healthy economy does not line up so nicely with what you call "logical balanced sense". A country having debt has no bearing on its duty to its citizens, and the implications of debt are so much more complex then simply "debt is bad" or "less debt=more deserving."
On July 29 2011 04:46 Spacely wrote: If America is so great and works so hard and is so profitable and mainstream why do we have a debt that is impossible to solve? America is supposed to be a place of intelligence and solutions to great issues yet here we are creating one of the biggest issues on the planet.
Here is some food for thought, how do Americans deserve their necessities anymore than people in other countries? Country A in Africa has X debt lower than America's debt yet their country is dissolving and can't even feed its own people, yet Country B Which is America has a Debt 100x greater than Country A, yet somehow can afford to feed its people and sustain when it owes more money than it earns? It doesn't make sense at least logical balanced sense.
We *were* great. We *had* a roaring economy. A lot of our rise in the world came directly after we exited WWII. Every other developed nation had their infrastructure leveled or impacted to some serious degree. We simply did not have that problem and began to climb in the world. Also, it may just be the local media and it may just be the slants, but this country is turning more and more xenophobic by the day. China is mentioned every day like it's the new enemy in the new cold war, we have an alarming tendency to treat Muslims like they're some kind of misunderstood evil species and we still haven't managed to form any kind of education system that works.
Money talks and bullshit walks, and lately..we're all out of money too.
You bring a good point though. We *don't* deserve anything. We seemingly think that we can run endless wars, police the world, let our companies do whatever they want everywhere else (The oil dump in the amazon, the Pfizer trials in Africa, etc.) and when they fuck up here (Gulf Oil spill, Montana pipeline, the miners that died, the entire business of Hydrofracking, etc.) we just make a short blog about it and let it pass quietly under the radar.
To be fair, we can't necessarily feed all our people either. Africa could, but at the same time we have nations like ours and other developed nations who own land there and use it to farm and ship food BACK across the sea. We're actually using Africa )the hungriest continent in the world) to feed everyone else! Also, where do you see anything that we're sustaining? Our entire infrastructure is going down the shitter day by day.
So you're right, it doesn't make sense. That's why we're 5 days away from a "crisis" over something that's completely arbitrary and something we've done multiple times in the past (the most during our good ol' Reagan's days)
I sure hope this country get's it shit together pretty damn soon. This isn't the world we were told we'd be in. I never voted for wars, I never voted for gitimo, I never voted for the Patriot Act. Yet...here I am...
EPT
