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On May 29 2011 12:01 polysciguy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2011 11:43 Tony Campolo wrote:On May 29 2011 09:32 polysciguy wrote:On May 29 2011 08:50 Olinim wrote:On May 29 2011 07:38 polysciguy wrote:Atheism is the "belief" that their is no god.
Theism is the "belief" that their is a god.
They are equal in that they both take faith, and they both cannot be proven. The "faith" is the issue between the two as they cannot be proven. It is fully illogical to believe either of these since you have to follow both blindly.
Agnosticism is the view that certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable.
^aka - The logical choice. not true, its the realistic choice. logically theism is the correct choice: let me explain. atheists are correct god does not exist: theist dies, nothing happens atheist dies nothing happens agnostic dies nothing happens theists are correct, god does exist (in this case using christian god because that is the religion im most familiar with) theist dies, eteranal happy happy fun times atheist dies, eternal damnation agnostic dies, eternal damnation so logically speaking, one should choose the theist perspective because they lose nothing if they are wrong and gain everything if they are right, wherease the agnostic and atheist gain nothing if they are correct and lose everythign if they are wrong. Really, Pascals Wager? Are you really that transparent? Your argument is of the view that if there is a God, it is specifically the Christian God, which is not true, who's to say which God is more believable, what if for believing in the wrong God you will be punished more severely than an atheist? Who are you to say God's existence automatically guarantees damnation? It's also untrue that with theism, nothing happens if you're false because you potentially wasted a good chunk of your life devoting it to some religion. Third, a supreme being would know damn well if I only pretended to believe simply because it would suit my needs better, I can't just get up one day and be like, you know what the Bible is retarded but I believe because I don't want to go to hell, that isn't real belief. It contains so many blatant assumptions that you have no proof or evidence to support. Even theists are reluctant to use this argument, even they realize how absurd and desperate it is. actually what im saying is that you have more potential gain by believing in a particular theological system then by in believing that there is nothing. it works for pretty much every religion......maybe not daoist or shinto, not very familiar with those. People like you are so ignorant it's not funny. Read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, chapter four goes into detail about Pascal's Wager and explains it far better. By the end of the chapter you'll realise just what a ridiculous argument it is and why most Christians shy away from using it these days. The sad thing is before 2006 it was still quite a common argument amongst apologetic circles. what makes me ignorant, that i use an outdated apologetic arguement? im not trying to argue that faith is better or convince anyone else that they should chose it, frankly i don't care, its your choice not mine. how about we drop the conversation and get back on topic.
Really?
"so logically speaking, one should choose the theist perspective because they lose nothing if they are wrong and gain everything if they are right, wherease the agnostic and atheist gain nothing if they are correct and lose everythign if they are wrong."
And if you didn't, why did you bring up something as dumb as Pascal's wager? (While I respect his contributions to science and such, I can't ignore the fact that he's way of reasoning was blatantly stupid in that regard.)
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On May 29 2011 14:42 PSdualwielder wrote:
This is completely ridiculous. What hits me the most is that this is another example of harm being done by the religious people 'in the name of their god'. For some reason when non believers does something wrong, to them it is due to their lack of guidance in belief or something, and then when they bring harm directly upon others, it must be out of their rational self justification, and in this case with the excuse of tradition.
This just goes back to medieval periods where local communities pretty much bully their way into converting people. This is the sort of stuff that pisses me off so much and why I will never be religious.
Fact is, it doesn't take religion to guide a person into being good, and both sides of the coin can produce the same kind of people. And in this case, the Christians are just being a bunch of a-holes. Self directed communities stray far from their 'core' values. They deserve to be criticized by the world.
And wow some parents they are. Better watch out for their final years.
It's not in the name of their god, it's purely out of anger towards a deuchy kid, they'd react the same way if he found a way to try and stop them from having a graduation ceremony. The prayer itself was just the premise, besides all you people thinking that's so terrible having a "sponsored" prayer, what exactly do you think they needed any state money for ? And if another minority wanted a prayer aswell who do you think would denie it to them?
They were assholes and their actions had nothing to do with god, but so was the kid, he's hardly any kind of hero more of a brat that felt it's time to live out his rebelious side, i bet he was just the outcast "no1 gives a shit about me" type thought leaving highschool with a blast would make him some sort of badass.
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konadora
Singapore66071 Posts
i don't see the need for the kid to make it this big. i'm an atheist but i attend a christian missionary school, i attend the chapel every fortnight and observe their prayers. why? because it's out of respect, it is their tradition. as long as they don't shove their ideology down on throats, i'm ok with it. besides, not all things said in the bible are that bad, they do teach some moral stuff. and come on, prayers don't hurt. .__.
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On May 29 2011 20:09 Cyba wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2011 14:42 PSdualwielder wrote:
This is completely ridiculous. What hits me the most is that this is another example of harm being done by the religious people 'in the name of their god'. For some reason when non believers does something wrong, to them it is due to their lack of guidance in belief or something, and then when they bring harm directly upon others, it must be out of their rational self justification, and in this case with the excuse of tradition.
This just goes back to medieval periods where local communities pretty much bully their way into converting people. This is the sort of stuff that pisses me off so much and why I will never be religious.
Fact is, it doesn't take religion to guide a person into being good, and both sides of the coin can produce the same kind of people. And in this case, the Christians are just being a bunch of a-holes. Self directed communities stray far from their 'core' values. They deserve to be criticized by the world.
And wow some parents they are. Better watch out for their final years. It's not in the name of their god, it's purely out of anger towards a deuchy kid, they'd react the same way if he found a way to try and stop them from having a graduation ceremony. The prayer itself was just the premise, besides all you people thinking that's so terrible having a "sponsored" prayer, what exactly do you think they needed any state money for ? And if another minority wanted a prayer aswell who do you think would denie it to them? They were assholes and their actions had nothing to do with god, but so was the kid, he's hardly any kind of hero more of a brat that felt it's time to live out his rebelious side, i bet he was just the outcast "no1 gives a shit about me" type thought leaving highschool with a blast would make him some sort of badass.
Why are you making this kind of judgement about the kid? There really isn't anything to suggest that that is his personality. You are acting remarkably unfair, and very similar to the assholes who ostracized him. What makes those assholes better than you?
I mean ffs man, the kid just had life beat the shit out of him and you're calling him a brat? What is your problem?
i don't see the need for the kid to make it this big. i'm an atheist but i attend a christian missionary school, i attend the chapel every fortnight and observe their prayers. why? because it's out of respect, it is their tradition. as long as they don't shove their ideology down on throats, i'm ok with it. besides, not all things said in the bible are that bad, they do teach some moral stuff. and come on, prayers don't hurt. .__.
Technically the kid didn't make it this big, as he was trying to do everything in confidence. And I don't really see how this thought process applies because you're talking about a christian missionary school.
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On May 29 2011 20:31 konadora wrote:
i don't see the need for the kid to make it this big. i'm an atheist but i attend a christian missionary school, i attend the chapel every fortnight and observe their prayers. why? because it's out of respect, it is their tradition. as long as they don't shove their ideology down on throats, i'm ok with it. besides, not all things said in the bible are that bad, they do teach some moral stuff. and come on, prayers don't hurt. .__.
Why is the kid the one 'who made it big'? why are you assuming that? He privately and politely contacted the school superintended, which is what he should have done. It's not like he organised some big public outcry against it is it? He was just upholding the law, presumably because he's intelligent enough to recognize the importance of the separation of state and religion.
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Why are you making this kind of judgement about the kid? There really isn't anything to suggest that that is his personality. You are acting remarkably unfair, and very similar to the assholes who ostracized him. What makes those assholes better than you?
Other than the fact that he decided to, in the darkness of night so to speak, alter the graduation ceremony in a way that he knew or should have known would be seen as petty and vindictive.
I mean ffs man, the kid just had life beat the shit out of him and you're calling him a brat? What is your problem?
He is a brat. No Christians were forcing him to believe in Jesus. No one was harming him at all. Hiding behind the Establishment Clause is a convenient way to be a dick and grab Absolute Moral Authority (TM).
If he hadn't tried to get the prayer thrown out it would have happened and it would have absolutely no meaning to his life whatsoever. No one would have ostracized him and I doubt that two days later he would have even remembered what the wording of the prayer was. Maybe not even two hours later.
But the real point of modern atheism is to denigrate, marginalize, and destroy religion, not to disbelieve. So he had to "assert his rights" or whatever and cause a big stink. Atheists just can't leave religionists alone. But remember, it's religionists who are oppressive.
Name me one case of a Christian or any other religion suing in court to force atheists to do anythign. There are hundreds where atheists try to force religionists to stop practicing their religion in a certain place because the poor little atheists are being oppressed. When that claim of oppression is obviously bullshit, is it any wonder Christians or other religionists start to feel hostile towards atheists?
He was just upholding the law, presumably because he's intelligent enough to recognize the importance of the separation of state and religion.
Yes, removing a prayer from a school ceremony is certainly vital to upholding the separation of state and religion.
Slippery slopes and all.
This is the post-modern West, a concern that prayer at a graduation ceremony is a step of any size at all towards a theocracy is laughable.
Upholding the law is the last arrow in the quiver of the respectable atheist or atheist supporter, but it's a flimsy one. Sure, the Establishment Clause says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. Now take some leaps and bounds and a prayer at a graduation ceremony is an imposition of religion.
We've been taught in this country that we can express ourselves as we please almost without restriction, and practice whatever religion we wish - or none at all - likewise. To me, and I bet to a lot of theists who think about it, it looks more like atheists are trying to restrict their freedom because of what they believe, rather than atheists trying to protect their own freedoms.
So I think it's really hard for a Christian to see how a prayer at school (not before or during class when the students are in theory under the control of the teacher and as such the State, and it's education, so religious or non-religious influences should be kept to a minimum just the facts ma'am) harms an atheist. Hard for me to see it too. Maybe an atheist can explain it. Because "whining pussy" is all I can come up with.
If atheists stop trying to order theists around, maybe theists will stop ostracizing them for being jerks. Maybe not too, the American South is... a different universe nearly.
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On May 29 2011 20:31 konadora wrote:
i don't see the need for the kid to make it this big. i'm an atheist but i attend a christian missionary school, i attend the chapel every fortnight and observe their prayers. why? because it's out of respect, it is their tradition. as long as they don't shove their ideology down on throats, i'm ok with it. besides, not all things said in the bible are that bad, they do teach some moral stuff. and come on, prayers don't hurt. .__.
Not everyone has to assume an attitude as condescending / tolerant as yours. Also, for every 'not all bad thing' in the Bible's texts there are three 'things' that are quite 'bad' for someone who is living this century. If you seek moral guidance, virtue ethics are much better of a source for an introduction to Ethics or plain morality, without having to deal with the fear-mongering and prejudices of past centuries that can serve no foreseeable purpose.
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On May 29 2011 21:07 DeepElemBlues wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Why are you making this kind of judgement about the kid? There really isn't anything to suggest that that is his personality. You are acting remarkably unfair, and very similar to the assholes who ostracized him. What makes those assholes better than you?
Other than the fact that he decided to, in the darkness of night so to speak, alter the graduation ceremony in a way that he knew or should have known would be seen as petty and vindictive. I mean ffs man, the kid just had life beat the shit out of him and you're calling him a brat? What is your problem? He is a brat. No Christians were forcing him to believe in Jesus. No one was harming him at all. Hiding behind the Establishment Clause is a convenient way to be a dick and grab Absolute Moral Authority (TM). If he hadn't tried to get the prayer thrown out it would have happened and it would have absolutely no meaning to his life whatsoever. No one would have ostracized him and I doubt that two days later he would have even remembered what the wording of the prayer was. Maybe not even two hours later. But the real point of modern atheism is to denigrate, marginalize, and destroy religion, not to disbelieve. So he had to "assert his rights" or whatever and cause a big stink. Atheists just can't leave religionists alone. But remember, it's religionists who are oppressive. Name me one case of a Christian or any other religion suing in court to force atheists to do anythign. There are hundreds where atheists try to force religionists to stop practicing their religion in a certain place because the poor little atheists are being oppressed. When that claim of oppression is obviously bullshit, is it any wonder Christians or other religionists start to feel hostile towards atheists? He was just upholding the law, presumably because he's intelligent enough to recognize the importance of the separation of state and religion. Yes, removing a prayer from a school ceremony is certainly vital to upholding the separation of state and religion. Slippery slopes and all. This is the post-modern West, a concern that prayer at a graduation ceremony is a step of any size at all towards a theocracy is laughable. Upholding the law is the last arrow in the quiver of the respectable atheist or atheist supporter, but it's a flimsy one. Sure, the Establishment Clause says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. Now take some leaps and bounds and a prayer at a graduation ceremony is an imposition of religion. We've been taught in this country that we can express ourselves as we please almost without restriction, and practice whatever religion we wish - or none at all - likewise. To me, and I bet to a lot of theists who think about it, it looks more like atheists are trying to restrict their freedom because of what they believe, rather than atheists trying to protect their own freedoms. So I think it's really hard for a Christian to see how a prayer at school (not before or during class when the students are in theory under the control of the teacher and as such the State, and it's education, so religious or non-religious influences should be kept to a minimum just the facts ma'am) harms an atheist. Hard for me to see it too. Maybe an atheist can explain it. Because "whining pussy" is all I can come up with. If atheists stop trying to order theists around, maybe theists will stop ostracizing them for being jerks. Maybe not too, the American South is... a different universe nearly.
This subject is only tenuously about atheism. This is about secularism. Separating church and state from the beginning is an explicit way of disallowing the domestic onset of theocracy (though not the only way, as liberal Europe has demonstrated you can get to secularism other ways). If you truly want prayer at a public institution, you have to internalize the idea that you might end up with prayer of an opposing faith. And that faith might not be as forgiving to those who aren't its followers. And you end up letting it have undeserved public influence on youth, and letting it seep into the public sphere that it might realize its dream of theocracy.
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Made my day. Thank you sir.
On the subject of Pascal's Wager, what if you bet on the wrong god?
What if you bet on Jesus and it turns out Thor was the right choice after all?
One was nailed to a cross, one holds a hammer, simple choice really.
Jokes aside, it's not possible to feign belief, you either believe or you don't, and a deity too dumb to tell the difference, is a deity unlikely to be impressed with your fervent belief anyway.
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On May 29 2011 21:07 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +Why are you making this kind of judgement about the kid? There really isn't anything to suggest that that is his personality. You are acting remarkably unfair, and very similar to the assholes who ostracized him. What makes those assholes better than you?
Other than the fact that he decided to, in the darkness of night so to speak, alter the graduation ceremony in a way that he knew or should have known would be seen as petty and vindictive. Show nested quote +I mean ffs man, the kid just had life beat the shit out of him and you're calling him a brat? What is your problem? He is a brat. No Christians were forcing him to believe in Jesus. No one was harming him at all. Hiding behind the Establishment Clause is a convenient way to be a dick and grab Absolute Moral Authority (TM). If he hadn't tried to get the prayer thrown out it would have happened and it would have absolutely no meaning to his life whatsoever. No one would have ostracized him and I doubt that two days later he would have even remembered what the wording of the prayer was. Maybe not even two hours later. But the real point of modern atheism is to denigrate, marginalize, and destroy religion, not to disbelieve. So he had to "assert his rights" or whatever and cause a big stink. Atheists just can't leave religionists alone. But remember, it's religionists who are oppressive. Name me one case of a Christian or any other religion suing in court to force atheists to do anythign. There are hundreds where atheists try to force religionists to stop practicing their religion in a certain place because the poor little atheists are being oppressed. When that claim of oppression is obviously bullshit, is it any wonder Christians or other religionists start to feel hostile towards atheists? Show nested quote +He was just upholding the law, presumably because he's intelligent enough to recognize the importance of the separation of state and religion. Yes, removing a prayer from a school ceremony is certainly vital to upholding the separation of state and religion. Slippery slopes and all. This is the post-modern West, a concern that prayer at a graduation ceremony is a step of any size at all towards a theocracy is laughable. Upholding the law is the last arrow in the quiver of the respectable atheist or atheist supporter, but it's a flimsy one. Sure, the Establishment Clause says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. Now take some leaps and bounds and a prayer at a graduation ceremony is an imposition of religion. We've been taught in this country that we can express ourselves as we please almost without restriction, and practice whatever religion we wish - or none at all - likewise. To me, and I bet to a lot of theists who think about it, it looks more like atheists are trying to restrict their freedom because of what they believe, rather than atheists trying to protect their own freedoms. So I think it's really hard for a Christian to see how a prayer at school (not before or during class when the students are in theory under the control of the teacher and as such the State, and it's education, so religious or non-religious influences should be kept to a minimum just the facts ma'am) harms an atheist. Hard for me to see it too. Maybe an atheist can explain it. Because "whining pussy" is all I can come up with. If atheists stop trying to order theists around, maybe theists will stop ostracizing them for being jerks. Maybe not too, the American South is... a different universe nearly.
This is exactly the point. Christians never do it in the court of law because they can't - the Christians were the ones breaking the law. Your post is so pathetically biased that it's insane. What, should we start bringing up all of the terrible things that religion has done to humanity throughout history and just start a flame war? The point is that the school was blatantly and unarguably breaking the law, and what you and a lot of other people in this thread are saying is that it's ok to break the law as long as the majority wants to. It scares me how foolish some of you are, and it disturbs me that you and so many others are just complete assholes. You have absolutely no basis for assuming that this kid was just acting out and trying to cause trouble, yet you assume so because of your extreme bias.
The second part of your post is just full of ignorance and bias. Being in the "post-modern west" doesn't mean jack shit. Humans are humans no matter what - it's not like humanity has magically changed since the Church had control and oppressed the population. The main thing that has changed is that we have laws against that crap - you stop following the laws, you leave room for it to happen again. And many non-Christians feel similar to your statement - there is still religion all over the place, even in a country that is supposed to be secular and non-religious in any government practice, and Christianity gets thrown into their faces all the time, from the president being sworn in on a Bible, to the vast, vast majority of politicians being Christian, to politicians routinely referring to Christian values to make policy decisions, to prayers and Christian practices in public spheres just like this graduation ceremony. But it's ok that a non-Christian has to sit through that shit and get it shoved into his face, right? Because the majority wants it? Because that's exactly what you and others here are saying - that it's ok for the minority to have to do or go through something they don't want to because most people want it.
Reality check: there is no oppression of Christians here. Christians have been the oppressors for hundreds of years and still are today.
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On May 29 2011 21:07 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +Why are you making this kind of judgement about the kid? There really isn't anything to suggest that that is his personality. You are acting remarkably unfair, and very similar to the assholes who ostracized him. What makes those assholes better than you?
Other than the fact that he decided to, in the darkness of night so to speak, alter the graduation ceremony in a way that he knew or should have known would be seen as petty and vindictive. Show nested quote +I mean ffs man, the kid just had life beat the shit out of him and you're calling him a brat? What is your problem? He is a brat. No Christians were forcing him to believe in Jesus. No one was harming him at all. Hiding behind the Establishment Clause is a convenient way to be a dick and grab Absolute Moral Authority (TM). If he hadn't tried to get the prayer thrown out it would have happened and it would have absolutely no meaning to his life whatsoever. No one would have ostracized him and I doubt that two days later he would have even remembered what the wording of the prayer was. Maybe not even two hours later. But the real point of modern atheism is to denigrate, marginalize, and destroy religion, not to disbelieve. So he had to "assert his rights" or whatever and cause a big stink. Atheists just can't leave religionists alone. But remember, it's religionists who are oppressive. Name me one case of a Christian or any other religion suing in court to force atheists to do anythign. There are hundreds where atheists try to force religionists to stop practicing their religion in a certain place because the poor little atheists are being oppressed. When that claim of oppression is obviously bullshit, is it any wonder Christians or other religionists start to feel hostile towards atheists? Show nested quote +He was just upholding the law, presumably because he's intelligent enough to recognize the importance of the separation of state and religion. Yes, removing a prayer from a school ceremony is certainly vital to upholding the separation of state and religion. Slippery slopes and all. This is the post-modern West, a concern that prayer at a graduation ceremony is a step of any size at all towards a theocracy is laughable. Upholding the law is the last arrow in the quiver of the respectable atheist or atheist supporter, but it's a flimsy one. Sure, the Establishment Clause says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. Now take some leaps and bounds and a prayer at a graduation ceremony is an imposition of religion. We've been taught in this country that we can express ourselves as we please almost without restriction, and practice whatever religion we wish - or none at all - likewise. To me, and I bet to a lot of theists who think about it, it looks more like atheists are trying to restrict their freedom because of what they believe, rather than atheists trying to protect their own freedoms. So I think it's really hard for a Christian to see how a prayer at school (not before or during class when the students are in theory under the control of the teacher and as such the State, and it's education, so religious or non-religious influences should be kept to a minimum just the facts ma'am) harms an atheist. Hard for me to see it too. Maybe an atheist can explain it. Because "whining pussy" is all I can come up with. If atheists stop trying to order theists around, maybe theists will stop ostracizing them for being jerks. Maybe not too, the American South is... a different universe nearly.
The students can express themselves, they just can not have government institutions, payed for by taxpayers, endorse that belief and alienate others. Your argument is basically, "forcing you to not overstep your rights and follow a perfectly good law is oppressive" "protip: it isn't. You really don't see how blatant school favoritism could harm or at least hinder a kid's experience in school, when he doesn't share the same belief?
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On May 29 2011 21:07 DeepElemBlues wrote:
He is a brat. No Christians were forcing him to believe in Jesus. No one was harming him at all. Hiding behind the Establishment Clause is a convenient way to be a dick and grab Absolute Moral Authority (TM).
So someone who tries to get an illegal prayer removed from a graduation deserves to be harassed day and night by an entire schoolful of students and at least one teacher, receive multiple death threats and be disowned by his parents, and therefore you're against him? I'd hate to hear what you consider to be going too far.
On May 29 2011 21:07 DeepElemBlues wrote:
If he hadn't tried to get the prayer thrown out it would have happened and it would have absolutely no meaning to his life whatsoever. No one would have ostracized him and I doubt that two days later he would have even remembered what the wording of the prayer was. Maybe not even two hours later.
And if a prayer that never should have been there was removed? It would have had absolutely no meaning to anyone's life whatsoever. If I mugged someone for fifty cents and they reported it to the cops, would they be an irritating brat who deserves to be bullied by hundreds of people and disowned by his parents? After all, it's not like those fifty cents actually mattered to anyone, he could have just let it slide.
On May 29 2011 21:07 DeepElemBlues wrote:
But the real point of modern atheism is to denigrate, marginalize, and destroy religion, not to disbelieve. So he had to "assert his rights" or whatever and cause a big stink. Atheists just can't leave religionists alone. But remember, it's religionists who are oppressive.
And the real point of religion is to scare people into following an archaic and arbitrary set of morals with threats of eternal torment in the fire of hell. So they have to threaten anyone who they can't bully with death. In other news, maybe making a personal attack on every atheist in the world is a tad unreasonable, just like my previous statement, so tone it down a little eh?
On May 29 2011 21:07 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Yes, removing a prayer from a school ceremony is certainly vital to upholding the separation of state and religion.
Well yeah, it is. If taxpayers' money is being used to fund Christian prayers then something is going wrong with the system. There's a reason what the school was doing was illegal.
On May 29 2011 21:07 DeepElemBlues wrote:
So I think it's really hard for a Christian to see how a prayer at school (not before or during class when the students are in theory under the control of the teacher and as such the State, and it's education, so religious or non-religious influences should be kept to a minimum just the facts ma'am) harms an atheist. Hard for me to see it too. Maybe an atheist can explain it. Because "whining pussy" is all I can come up with.
For the same reason you get mightily pissed off whenever an atheist disses your religion. Pretty much every religion ever considers anyone who doesn't follow it to be an infidel who deserves to burn in hell forever, that's a rather offensive point of view to support in a school, even if the prayer itself wasn't. Covering the graduation with swastikas isn't oppressing anyone either, but it certainly leaves a bad taste in the mouth of anyone who isn't a Nazi*.
*I hate to invoke Godwin's Law, but there's a reason Nazi Germany references are so common. They're just so damn effective.
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I can't believe there is no rule about religion threads in TL. For the incredible level of moderation for everything else but not religion? Most forums I have been a part of allow no discussion of this simply because it becomes a flame fest real fast and nothing is accomplished.
It happens with 100% certainty every time. It is like Godwin's Law.
It is too bad for the kid. Everyone involved seemed to just have gone too far. Most of the world is populated by what I consider deluded people. I have come to accept that this is not going to change anytime soon. If you don't tread carefully you put yourself at risk.
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As Jesus said to the Elders at the temple "But woe unto you, ascribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."
"Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."
Jesus made it clear that a Samaritan who was good was a better candidate for heaven then people who claim to be faithful, but are hypocrites. My college is Catholic, and there are many good priests and students there of Christian faith, but the overall structure is heavily religious (duh) (it is mandatory to take theology classes.)
Given that it was my own choice to enter my college, I deem it fair for my school to do this, but a high school in my opinion is a different story, sometimes because the student themselves might not have a say where they want to learn.
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On May 29 2011 22:05 AzureD wrote:
I can't believe there is no rule about religion threads in TL. For the incredible level of moderation for everything else but not religion? Most forums I have been a part of allow no discussion of this simply because it becomes a flame fest real fast and nothing is accomplished.
It happens with 100% certainty every time. It is like Godwin's Law.
It is too bad for the kid. Everyone involved seemed to just have gone too far. Most of the world is populated by what I consider deluded people. I have come to accept that this is not going to change anytime soon. If you don't tread carefully you put yourself at risk.
Just because you personally dislike it doesn't mean that other people don't find it interesting. I can't stand people like you who complain in a thread when they could easily just ignore the thread.
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On May 29 2011 20:39 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2011 20:09 Cyba wrote:On May 29 2011 14:42 PSdualwielder wrote:
This is completely ridiculous. What hits me the most is that this is another example of harm being done by the religious people 'in the name of their god'. For some reason when non believers does something wrong, to them it is due to their lack of guidance in belief or something, and then when they bring harm directly upon others, it must be out of their rational self justification, and in this case with the excuse of tradition.
This just goes back to medieval periods where local communities pretty much bully their way into converting people. This is the sort of stuff that pisses me off so much and why I will never be religious.
Fact is, it doesn't take religion to guide a person into being good, and both sides of the coin can produce the same kind of people. And in this case, the Christians are just being a bunch of a-holes. Self directed communities stray far from their 'core' values. They deserve to be criticized by the world.
And wow some parents they are. Better watch out for their final years. It's not in the name of their god, it's purely out of anger towards a deuchy kid, they'd react the same way if he found a way to try and stop them from having a graduation ceremony. The prayer itself was just the premise, besides all you people thinking that's so terrible having a "sponsored" prayer, what exactly do you think they needed any state money for ? And if another minority wanted a prayer aswell who do you think would denie it to them? They were assholes and their actions had nothing to do with god, but so was the kid, he's hardly any kind of hero more of a brat that felt it's time to live out his rebelious side, i bet he was just the outcast "no1 gives a shit about me" type thought leaving highschool with a blast would make him some sort of badass. Why are you making this kind of judgement about the kid? There really isn't anything to suggest that that is his personality. You are acting remarkably unfair, and very similar to the assholes who ostracized him. What makes those assholes better than you? I mean ffs man, the kid just had life beat the shit out of him and you're calling him a brat? What is your problem? Show nested quote +i don't see the need for the kid to make it this big. i'm an atheist but i attend a christian missionary school, i attend the chapel every fortnight and observe their prayers. why? because it's out of respect, it is their tradition. as long as they don't shove their ideology down on throats, i'm ok with it. besides, not all things said in the bible are that bad, they do teach some moral stuff. and come on, prayers don't hurt. .__. Technically the kid didn't make it this big, as he was trying to do everything in confidence. And I don't really see how this thought process applies because you're talking about a christian missionary school.
Got no problem at all, the media tends to victimize people that do stupid shit in this case him. If he was graduating he shoulda been smart enough not to bring that upon himself.
I'm not saying he was the one at fault but i deeply disagree that he's such a innocent poor kid who wanted to uphold the law.
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Oh another thing in Romania we study religion in school. It's literarily shoved down our throats.
I'm an atheist never believed in any of that junk and never will, i still had the respect to let them do their thing attend the class and so on. If anything it was interesting to learn their point of view.
What the problem with "atheists" like that kid there is that they want to mock other people's beliefs, NO christian will ever force you to attend a prayer it's ridiculous to asume. Also that separation shit you keep floating around, man you have no idea what secularism means, that concept is saved for islam where the church tells people what to do, not a public school where some kids and teachers want to pray.
He is a brat. No Christians were forcing him to believe in Jesus. No one was harming him at all. Hiding behind the Establishment Clause is a convenient way to be a dick and grab Absolute Moral Authority (TM).
If he hadn't tried to get the prayer thrown out it would have happened and it would have absolutely no meaning to his life whatsoever. No one would have ostracized him and I doubt that two days later he would have even remembered what the wording of the prayer was. Maybe not even two hours later.
But the real point of modern atheism is to denigrate, marginalize, and destroy religion, not to disbelieve. So he had to "assert his rights" or whatever and cause a big stink. Atheists just can't leave religionists alone. But remember, it's religionists who are oppressive.
Name me one case of a Christian or any other religion suing in court to force atheists to do anythign. There are hundreds where atheists try to force religionists to stop practicing their religion in a certain place because the poor little atheists are being oppressed. When that claim of oppression is obviously bullshit, is it any wonder Christians or other religionists start to feel hostile towards atheists?
He was just upholding the law, presumably because he's intelligent enough to recognize the importance of the separation of state and religion.
Yes, removing a prayer from a school ceremony is certainly vital to upholding the separation of state and religion.
Slippery slopes and all.
This is the post-modern West, a concern that prayer at a graduation ceremony is a step of any size at all towards a theocracy is laughable.
Upholding the law is the last arrow in the quiver of the respectable atheist or atheist supporter, but it's a flimsy one. Sure, the Establishment Clause says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. Now take some leaps and bounds and a prayer at a graduation ceremony is an imposition of religion.
We've been taught in this country that we can express ourselves as we please almost without restriction, and practice whatever religion we wish - or none at all - likewise. To me, and I bet to a lot of theists who think about it, it looks more like atheists are trying to restrict their freedom because of what they believe, rather than atheists trying to protect their own freedoms.
So I think it's really hard for a Christian to see how a prayer at school (not before or during class when the students are in theory under the control of the teacher and as such the State, and it's education, so religious or non-religious influences should be kept to a minimum just the facts ma'am) harms an atheist. Hard for me to see it too. Maybe an atheist can explain it. Because "whining pussy" is all I can come up with.
If atheists stop trying to order theists around, maybe theists will stop ostracizing them for being jerks. Maybe not too, the American South is... a different universe nearly.
That post is brilliant you must be blind death and stupid to think it's wrong.
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I don't understand why so many people are making this into a discussion about why the guy did what he did. it really doesn't matter.
If you steal money and a friend turns you in, it really doesn't matter if he did so because stealing is wrong or because he felt like being a prick. You still broke the law, just as the school did in this case.
On May 29 2011 23:10 Cyba wrote:
NO christian will ever force you to attend a prayer it's ridiculous to asume.
Felt the need to respond to this. The entire point is that he WAS forced to attend a prayer.
From Lee vs. Weisman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_v._Weisman)
"To say a teenage student has a real choice not to attend her high school graduation is formalistic in the extreme. True, Deborah could elect not to attend commencement without renouncing her diploma; but we shall not allow the case to turn on this point. Everyone knows that, in our society and in our culture, high school graduation is one of life's most significant occasions. A school rule which excuses attendance is beside the point. Attendance may not be required by official decree, yet it is apparent that a student is not free to absent herself from the graduation exercise in any real sense of the term "voluntary," for absence would require forfeiture of those intangible benefits which have motivated the student through youth and all her high school years."
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On May 29 2011 23:10 Cyba wrote:Oh another thing in Romania we study religion in school. It's literarily shoved down our throats. I'm an atheist never believed in any of that junk and never will, i still had the respect to let them do their thing attend the class and so on. If anything it was interesting to learn their point of view. What the problem with "atheists" like that kid there is that they want to mock other people's beliefs, NO christian will ever force you to attend a prayer it's ridiculous to asume. Also that separation shit you keep floating around, man you have no idea what secularism means, that concept is saved for islam where the church tells people what to do, not a public school where some kids and teachers want to pray. Show nested quote +He is a brat. No Christians were forcing him to believe in Jesus. No one was harming him at all. Hiding behind the Establishment Clause is a convenient way to be a dick and grab Absolute Moral Authority (TM).
If he hadn't tried to get the prayer thrown out it would have happened and it would have absolutely no meaning to his life whatsoever. No one would have ostracized him and I doubt that two days later he would have even remembered what the wording of the prayer was. Maybe not even two hours later.
But the real point of modern atheism is to denigrate, marginalize, and destroy religion, not to disbelieve. So he had to "assert his rights" or whatever and cause a big stink. Atheists just can't leave religionists alone. But remember, it's religionists who are oppressive.
Name me one case of a Christian or any other religion suing in court to force atheists to do anythign. There are hundreds where atheists try to force religionists to stop practicing their religion in a certain place because the poor little atheists are being oppressed. When that claim of oppression is obviously bullshit, is it any wonder Christians or other religionists start to feel hostile towards atheists?
He was just upholding the law, presumably because he's intelligent enough to recognize the importance of the separation of state and religion.
Yes, removing a prayer from a school ceremony is certainly vital to upholding the separation of state and religion.
Slippery slopes and all.
This is the post-modern West, a concern that prayer at a graduation ceremony is a step of any size at all towards a theocracy is laughable.
Upholding the law is the last arrow in the quiver of the respectable atheist or atheist supporter, but it's a flimsy one. Sure, the Establishment Clause says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. Now take some leaps and bounds and a prayer at a graduation ceremony is an imposition of religion.
We've been taught in this country that we can express ourselves as we please almost without restriction, and practice whatever religion we wish - or none at all - likewise. To me, and I bet to a lot of theists who think about it, it looks more like atheists are trying to restrict their freedom because of what they believe, rather than atheists trying to protect their own freedoms.
So I think it's really hard for a Christian to see how a prayer at school (not before or during class when the students are in theory under the control of the teacher and as such the State, and it's education, so religious or non-religious influences should be kept to a minimum just the facts ma'am) harms an atheist. Hard for me to see it too. Maybe an atheist can explain it. Because "whining pussy" is all I can come up with.
If atheists stop trying to order theists around, maybe theists will stop ostracizing them for being jerks. Maybe not too, the American South is... a different universe nearly. That post is brilliant you must be blind death and stupid to think it's wrong.
Kid's can pray if they want, the difference is a prayer endorsed by the government promoting a certain religion over another, you don't seem to understand that distinction. You must be blind death and stupid to think that guy's post is right.
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EPT
