On May 27 2011 13:37 garlicface wrote: Come on, threatening to get a "traditional" prayer cancelled?
I mean, it's Louisiana (or, more importantly, the US). Of course this was going to happen
That kind of thinking will persist as long as reason is abandoned in the face of adversity. This isn't an atheist or christian issue, it's constitutional.
On May 29 2011 23:10 Cyba wrote: Oh another thing in Romania we study religion in school. It's literarily shoved down our throats.
I'm an atheist never believed in any of that junk and never will, i still had the respect to let them do their thing attend the class and so on. If anything it was interesting to learn their point of view.
What the problem with "atheists" like that kid there is that they want to mock other people's beliefs, NO christian will ever force you to attend a prayer it's ridiculous to asume. Also that separation shit you keep floating around, man you have no idea what secularism means, that concept is saved for islam where the church tells people what to do, not a public school where some kids and teachers want to pray.
He is a brat. No Christians were forcing him to believe in Jesus. No one was harming him at all. Hiding behind the Establishment Clause is a convenient way to be a dick and grab Absolute Moral Authority (TM).
If he hadn't tried to get the prayer thrown out it would have happened and it would have absolutely no meaning to his life whatsoever. No one would have ostracized him and I doubt that two days later he would have even remembered what the wording of the prayer was. Maybe not even two hours later.
But the real point of modern atheism is to denigrate, marginalize, and destroy religion, not to disbelieve. So he had to "assert his rights" or whatever and cause a big stink. Atheists just can't leave religionists alone. But remember, it's religionists who are oppressive.
Name me one case of a Christian or any other religion suing in court to force atheists to do anythign. There are hundreds where atheists try to force religionists to stop practicing their religion in a certain place because the poor little atheists are being oppressed. When that claim of oppression is obviously bullshit, is it any wonder Christians or other religionists start to feel hostile towards atheists?
He was just upholding the law, presumably because he's intelligent enough to recognize the importance of the separation of state and religion.
Yes, removing a prayer from a school ceremony is certainly vital to upholding the separation of state and religion.
Slippery slopes and all.
This is the post-modern West, a concern that prayer at a graduation ceremony is a step of any size at all towards a theocracy is laughable.
Upholding the law is the last arrow in the quiver of the respectable atheist or atheist supporter, but it's a flimsy one. Sure, the Establishment Clause says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. Now take some leaps and bounds and a prayer at a graduation ceremony is an imposition of religion.
We've been taught in this country that we can express ourselves as we please almost without restriction, and practice whatever religion we wish - or none at all - likewise. To me, and I bet to a lot of theists who think about it, it looks more like atheists are trying to restrict their freedom because of what they believe, rather than atheists trying to protect their own freedoms.
So I think it's really hard for a Christian to see how a prayer at school (not before or during class when the students are in theory under the control of the teacher and as such the State, and it's education, so religious or non-religious influences should be kept to a minimum just the facts ma'am) harms an atheist. Hard for me to see it too. Maybe an atheist can explain it. Because "whining pussy" is all I can come up with.
If atheists stop trying to order theists around, maybe theists will stop ostracizing them for being jerks. Maybe not too, the American South is... a different universe nearly.
That post is brilliant you must be blind death and stupid to think it's wrong.
Kid's can pray if they want, the difference is a prayer endorsed by the government promoting a certain religion over another, you don't seem to understand that distinction. You must be blind death and stupid to think that guy's post is right.
This stuff goes on all the time. The kid didn't need to make a big deal out of it. I'm a Deist and quite irreligious and during Boot Camp they regularly had prayer at the end of the night. No one forced me to pray, no one pushed anything on me, nor did those of us who did not take part force ourselves upon them. I do not see anything wrong with a School-initiated prayer as long as no one is forced to take part -- which is what is Unconstitutional. Yes, it is an immensely good idea to seperate the Establishment of a State-religion which mandates all persons residing within the country, state, or otherwise to worship a certain religion. This did nothing of the sort.
I think Theists and Non-Theists need to respect each others views regardless if you disagree or not.
The writer is extremely bias.. but then the treatment the kid got is ridiculous. Ok I imagine If you were a hardline Christian having a kid try and stop you doing something would be rather horrible especially as he was the only one in effect trying to stop everyone else (I'm not up on american politics, cant comment on that side of it), but then they treatment they bestow on the kid can hardly be viewed as christian... Guessing they missed the whole. love thy neighbour part? I was always raised to think that Religion and Politics are something that should never be discussed because each is a personal preference and has nothing to do with anyone else... (I don't even know which side my girlfriend leans to politically, or if she told me it mattered so little to me, I've forgotten, it has no bearing on our relationship) I'm a Christian, that's my choice I'm not going to try and convince anyone else that's how to lead their lives.. I'm also not going to hate them if that's not their choice.
Why does religion / aethism everything.. have to have so much intolerance towards each other... can't we just accept people choose to see, think and believe different things?
On May 29 2011 23:10 Cyba wrote: Oh another thing in Romania we study religion in school. It's literarily shoved down our throats.
I'm an atheist never believed in any of that junk and never will, i still had the respect to let them do their thing attend the class and so on. If anything it was interesting to learn their point of view.
What the problem with "atheists" like that kid there is that they want to mock other people's beliefs, NO christian will ever force you to attend a prayer it's ridiculous to asume. Also that separation shit you keep floating around, man you have no idea what secularism means, that concept is saved for islam where the church tells people what to do, not a public school where some kids and teachers want to pray.
He is a brat. No Christians were forcing him to believe in Jesus. No one was harming him at all. Hiding behind the Establishment Clause is a convenient way to be a dick and grab Absolute Moral Authority (TM).
If he hadn't tried to get the prayer thrown out it would have happened and it would have absolutely no meaning to his life whatsoever. No one would have ostracized him and I doubt that two days later he would have even remembered what the wording of the prayer was. Maybe not even two hours later.
But the real point of modern atheism is to denigrate, marginalize, and destroy religion, not to disbelieve. So he had to "assert his rights" or whatever and cause a big stink. Atheists just can't leave religionists alone. But remember, it's religionists who are oppressive.
Name me one case of a Christian or any other religion suing in court to force atheists to do anythign. There are hundreds where atheists try to force religionists to stop practicing their religion in a certain place because the poor little atheists are being oppressed. When that claim of oppression is obviously bullshit, is it any wonder Christians or other religionists start to feel hostile towards atheists?
He was just upholding the law, presumably because he's intelligent enough to recognize the importance of the separation of state and religion.
Yes, removing a prayer from a school ceremony is certainly vital to upholding the separation of state and religion.
Slippery slopes and all.
This is the post-modern West, a concern that prayer at a graduation ceremony is a step of any size at all towards a theocracy is laughable.
Upholding the law is the last arrow in the quiver of the respectable atheist or atheist supporter, but it's a flimsy one. Sure, the Establishment Clause says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. Now take some leaps and bounds and a prayer at a graduation ceremony is an imposition of religion.
We've been taught in this country that we can express ourselves as we please almost without restriction, and practice whatever religion we wish - or none at all - likewise. To me, and I bet to a lot of theists who think about it, it looks more like atheists are trying to restrict their freedom because of what they believe, rather than atheists trying to protect their own freedoms.
So I think it's really hard for a Christian to see how a prayer at school (not before or during class when the students are in theory under the control of the teacher and as such the State, and it's education, so religious or non-religious influences should be kept to a minimum just the facts ma'am) harms an atheist. Hard for me to see it too. Maybe an atheist can explain it. Because "whining pussy" is all I can come up with.
If atheists stop trying to order theists around, maybe theists will stop ostracizing them for being jerks. Maybe not too, the American South is... a different universe nearly.
That post is brilliant you must be blind death and stupid to think it's wrong.
Kid's can pray if they want, the difference is a prayer endorsed by the government promoting a certain religion over another, you don't seem to understand that distinction. You must be blind death and stupid to think that guy's post is right.
This stuff goes on all the time. The kid didn't need to make a big deal out of it. I'm a Deist and quite irreligious and during Boot Camp they regularly had prayer at the end of the night. No one forced me to pray, no one pushed anything on me, nor did those of us who did not take part force ourselves upon them. I do not see anything wrong with a School-initiated prayer as long as no one is forced to take part -- which is what is Unconstitutional. Yes, it is an immensely good idea to seperate the Establishment of a State-religion which mandates all persons residing within the country, state, or otherwise to worship a certain religion. This did nothing of the sort.
I think Theists and Non-Theists need to respect each others views regardless if you disagree or not.
Well the supreme court would disagree as both have been found unconstitutional in similar cases. This is a government institution favoring a certain religion over another, or non religion, which is unconstitutional, and wrong. And I have no such need to respect another persons absurd and insultingly stupid views, merely their right to have them.
On May 29 2011 23:10 Cyba wrote: Oh another thing in Romania we study religion in school. It's literarily shoved down our throats.
I'm an atheist never believed in any of that junk and never will, i still had the respect to let them do their thing attend the class and so on. If anything it was interesting to learn their point of view.
What the problem with "atheists" like that kid there is that they want to mock other people's beliefs, NO christian will ever force you to attend a prayer it's ridiculous to asume. Also that separation shit you keep floating around, man you have no idea what secularism means, that concept is saved for islam where the church tells people what to do, not a public school where some kids and teachers want to pray.
The bolded part is cute. I like how you completely ignore the practically limitless examples of religion oppressing and forcing their views on masses of people throughout history (and even today) and try to paint the Christians like they're all good guys while the Atheists are all bad guys. Bias at its finest.
There are no good guys here, no bad guys. This issue isn't about disrepecting Christian views - it's about breaking the law and doing something unconstitutional.
This stuff goes on all the time. The kid didn't need to make a big deal out of it. I'm a Deist and quite irreligious and during Boot Camp they regularly had prayer at the end of the night. No one forced me to pray, no one pushed anything on me, nor did those of us who did not take part force ourselves upon them. I do not see anything wrong with a School-initiated prayer as long as no one is forced to take part -- which is what is Unconstitutional. Yes, it is an immensely good idea to seperate the Establishment of a State-religion which mandates all persons residing within the country, state, or otherwise to worship a certain religion. This did nothing of the sort.
I think Theists and Non-Theists need to respect each others views regardless if you disagree or not.
This excuse is absolutely ridiculous. This isn't an issue of an atheist disrespecting Christians' views - it's an issue of a public, government-funded institution endorsing one specific religion, which is absolutely against the law. This logic is quite literally saying that if it doesn't inconvenience someone too much that we should allow people to break the law. Explain how it is justifiable to break the law in this situation and then we can listen to the "he shouldn't have made such a big deal out of it" argument.
On May 29 2011 23:10 Cyba wrote: Oh another thing in Romania we study religion in school. It's literarily shoved down our throats.
I'm an atheist never believed in any of that junk and never will, i still had the respect to let them do their thing attend the class and so on. If anything it was interesting to learn their point of view.
What the problem with "atheists" like that kid there is that they want to mock other people's beliefs, NO christian will ever force you to attend a prayer it's ridiculous to asume. Also that separation shit you keep floating around, man you have no idea what secularism means, that concept is saved for islam where the church tells people what to do, not a public school where some kids and teachers want to pray.
He is a brat. No Christians were forcing him to believe in Jesus. No one was harming him at all. Hiding behind the Establishment Clause is a convenient way to be a dick and grab Absolute Moral Authority (TM).
If he hadn't tried to get the prayer thrown out it would have happened and it would have absolutely no meaning to his life whatsoever. No one would have ostracized him and I doubt that two days later he would have even remembered what the wording of the prayer was. Maybe not even two hours later.
But the real point of modern atheism is to denigrate, marginalize, and destroy religion, not to disbelieve. So he had to "assert his rights" or whatever and cause a big stink. Atheists just can't leave religionists alone. But remember, it's religionists who are oppressive.
Name me one case of a Christian or any other religion suing in court to force atheists to do anythign. There are hundreds where atheists try to force religionists to stop practicing their religion in a certain place because the poor little atheists are being oppressed. When that claim of oppression is obviously bullshit, is it any wonder Christians or other religionists start to feel hostile towards atheists?
He was just upholding the law, presumably because he's intelligent enough to recognize the importance of the separation of state and religion.
Yes, removing a prayer from a school ceremony is certainly vital to upholding the separation of state and religion.
Slippery slopes and all.
This is the post-modern West, a concern that prayer at a graduation ceremony is a step of any size at all towards a theocracy is laughable.
Upholding the law is the last arrow in the quiver of the respectable atheist or atheist supporter, but it's a flimsy one. Sure, the Establishment Clause says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. Now take some leaps and bounds and a prayer at a graduation ceremony is an imposition of religion.
We've been taught in this country that we can express ourselves as we please almost without restriction, and practice whatever religion we wish - or none at all - likewise. To me, and I bet to a lot of theists who think about it, it looks more like atheists are trying to restrict their freedom because of what they believe, rather than atheists trying to protect their own freedoms.
So I think it's really hard for a Christian to see how a prayer at school (not before or during class when the students are in theory under the control of the teacher and as such the State, and it's education, so religious or non-religious influences should be kept to a minimum just the facts ma'am) harms an atheist. Hard for me to see it too. Maybe an atheist can explain it. Because "whining pussy" is all I can come up with.
If atheists stop trying to order theists around, maybe theists will stop ostracizing them for being jerks. Maybe not too, the American South is... a different universe nearly.
That post is brilliant you must be blind death and stupid to think it's wrong.
Kid's can pray if they want, the difference is a prayer endorsed by the government promoting a certain religion over another, you don't seem to understand that distinction. You must be blind death and stupid to think that guy's post is right.
This stuff goes on all the time. The kid didn't need to make a big deal out of it. I'm a Deist and quite irreligious and during Boot Camp they regularly had prayer at the end of the night. No one forced me to pray, no one pushed anything on me, nor did those of us who did not take part force ourselves upon them. I do not see anything wrong with a School-initiated prayer as long as no one is forced to take part -- which is what is Unconstitutional. Yes, it is an immensely good idea to seperate the Establishment of a State-religion which mandates all persons residing within the country, state, or otherwise to worship a certain religion. This did nothing of the sort.
I think Theists and Non-Theists need to respect each others views regardless if you disagree or not.
Well the supreme court would disagree as both have been found unconstitutional in similar cases. This is a government institution favoring a certain religion over another, or non religion, which is unconstitutional, and wrong. And I have no such need to respect another persons absurd and insultingly stupid views, merely their right to have them.
Antagonism will get you no where. A lot of good came from Dominican Scholastics and Thomistic Philosophers. At the very least mutual respect will reduce the unneeded conflict. You aren't going to influence anyone by telling them how stupid they are.
On May 29 2011 23:10 Cyba wrote: Oh another thing in Romania we study religion in school. It's literarily shoved down our throats.
I'm an atheist never believed in any of that junk and never will, i still had the respect to let them do their thing attend the class and so on. If anything it was interesting to learn their point of view.
What the problem with "atheists" like that kid there is that they want to mock other people's beliefs, NO christian will ever force you to attend a prayer it's ridiculous to asume. Also that separation shit you keep floating around, man you have no idea what secularism means, that concept is saved for islam where the church tells people what to do, not a public school where some kids and teachers want to pray.
He is a brat. No Christians were forcing him to believe in Jesus. No one was harming him at all. Hiding behind the Establishment Clause is a convenient way to be a dick and grab Absolute Moral Authority (TM).
If he hadn't tried to get the prayer thrown out it would have happened and it would have absolutely no meaning to his life whatsoever. No one would have ostracized him and I doubt that two days later he would have even remembered what the wording of the prayer was. Maybe not even two hours later.
But the real point of modern atheism is to denigrate, marginalize, and destroy religion, not to disbelieve. So he had to "assert his rights" or whatever and cause a big stink. Atheists just can't leave religionists alone. But remember, it's religionists who are oppressive.
Name me one case of a Christian or any other religion suing in court to force atheists to do anythign. There are hundreds where atheists try to force religionists to stop practicing their religion in a certain place because the poor little atheists are being oppressed. When that claim of oppression is obviously bullshit, is it any wonder Christians or other religionists start to feel hostile towards atheists?
He was just upholding the law, presumably because he's intelligent enough to recognize the importance of the separation of state and religion.
Yes, removing a prayer from a school ceremony is certainly vital to upholding the separation of state and religion.
Slippery slopes and all.
This is the post-modern West, a concern that prayer at a graduation ceremony is a step of any size at all towards a theocracy is laughable.
Upholding the law is the last arrow in the quiver of the respectable atheist or atheist supporter, but it's a flimsy one. Sure, the Establishment Clause says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. Now take some leaps and bounds and a prayer at a graduation ceremony is an imposition of religion.
We've been taught in this country that we can express ourselves as we please almost without restriction, and practice whatever religion we wish - or none at all - likewise. To me, and I bet to a lot of theists who think about it, it looks more like atheists are trying to restrict their freedom because of what they believe, rather than atheists trying to protect their own freedoms.
So I think it's really hard for a Christian to see how a prayer at school (not before or during class when the students are in theory under the control of the teacher and as such the State, and it's education, so religious or non-religious influences should be kept to a minimum just the facts ma'am) harms an atheist. Hard for me to see it too. Maybe an atheist can explain it. Because "whining pussy" is all I can come up with.
If atheists stop trying to order theists around, maybe theists will stop ostracizing them for being jerks. Maybe not too, the American South is... a different universe nearly.
That post is brilliant you must be blind death and stupid to think it's wrong.
Kid's can pray if they want, the difference is a prayer endorsed by the government promoting a certain religion over another, you don't seem to understand that distinction. You must be blind death and stupid to think that guy's post is right.
This stuff goes on all the time. The kid didn't need to make a big deal out of it. I'm a Deist and quite irreligious and during Boot Camp they regularly had prayer at the end of the night. No one forced me to pray, no one pushed anything on me, nor did those of us who did not take part force ourselves upon them. I do not see anything wrong with a School-initiated prayer as long as no one is forced to take part -- which is what is Unconstitutional. Yes, it is an immensely good idea to seperate the Establishment of a State-religion which mandates all persons residing within the country, state, or otherwise to worship a certain religion. This did nothing of the sort.
I think Theists and Non-Theists need to respect each others views regardless if you disagree or not.
Well the supreme court would disagree as both have been found unconstitutional in similar cases. This is a government institution favoring a certain religion over another, or non religion, which is unconstitutional, and wrong. And I have no such need to respect another persons absurd and insultingly stupid views, merely their right to have them.
Antagonism will get you no where. A lot of good came from Dominican Scholastics and Thomistic Philosophers. At the very least mutual respect will reduce the unneeded conflict. You aren't going to influence anyone by telling them how stupid they are.
Why should I respect a belief system that says I'm damned for an eternity in hell for not submitting to their nonsense? I have mutual respect in the sense that we are both human beings, and should be treated as such, but I'm not going to lie to make them feel better either.
I find it amazing how some people here are completely missing the point here. It's not about christianity or any other religion for that matter, nor is it about atheism. Imagine that this school, instead of having a christian prayer had a muslim prayer or some buddhist meditation or whatnot, the kid would have acted EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. Why? Because he is not bothered by the fact the it was a christian prayer, he was bothered by the fact that the school was allowing a religious ceremony to be taking place when the law (I'm not American but I think I understand a little about human rights and Brazil has a similar law) clearly states that religion and state must be separate, hence this school (or any PUBLIC institution) cannot endorse ANY religious ceremony of any sort. And this is the point that is being put to question here. And I believe this to be a huge matter in terms of rights. This is why, I have said this and will say again, I think this kid is such a courageous person for standing up and defending the law.
On May 29 2011 23:10 Cyba wrote: Oh another thing in Romania we study religion in school. It's literarily shoved down our throats.
I'm an atheist never believed in any of that junk and never will, i still had the respect to let them do their thing attend the class and so on. If anything it was interesting to learn their point of view.
What the problem with "atheists" like that kid there is that they want to mock other people's beliefs, NO christian will ever force you to attend a prayer it's ridiculous to asume. Also that separation shit you keep floating around, man you have no idea what secularism means, that concept is saved for islam where the church tells people what to do, not a public school where some kids and teachers want to pray.
The bolded part is cute. I like how you completely ignore the practically limitless examples of religion oppressing and forcing their views on masses of people throughout history (and even today) and try to paint the Christians like they're all good guys while the Atheists are all bad guys. Bias at its finest.
There are no good guys here, no bad guys. This issue isn't about disrepecting Christian views - it's about breaking the law and doing something unconstitutional.
This stuff goes on all the time. The kid didn't need to make a big deal out of it. I'm a Deist and quite irreligious and during Boot Camp they regularly had prayer at the end of the night. No one forced me to pray, no one pushed anything on me, nor did those of us who did not take part force ourselves upon them. I do not see anything wrong with a School-initiated prayer as long as no one is forced to take part -- which is what is Unconstitutional. Yes, it is an immensely good idea to seperate the Establishment of a State-religion which mandates all persons residing within the country, state, or otherwise to worship a certain religion. This did nothing of the sort.
I think Theists and Non-Theists need to respect each others views regardless if you disagree or not.
This excuse is absolutely ridiculous. This isn't an issue of an atheist disrespecting Christians' views - it's an issue of a public, government-funded institution endorsing one specific religion, which is absolutely against the law. This logic is quite literally saying that if it doesn't inconvenience someone too much that we should allow people to break the law. Explain how it is justifiable to break the law in this situation and then we can listen to the "he shouldn't have made such a big deal out of it" argument.
The State cannot Establish a religion (E.g. codify a National Religion). It is perfectly constitutional to have optional-prayer in School. Of course the SCOTUS also says that the NFA34, GCA68, and FOPA86 is also constitutional when it isn't (add to the fact Heller was 5-4! and the recent 8-1 Shredding of the 4th by them) I don't put much credibility in the SCOTUS being a non-biased arbiter (especially considering they are politically appointed and work for the same Government they are supposed to restrict their power). Now, I am not endorsing Socialized Government-Schools as they breed conflict (like any socialized good or service), but I do not see why this person had a problem with just not taking part in the prayer...No one was forcing him to pray, nor is there a law which makes it a crime to refuse to pray.
Perhaps if people stopped forcing others to pay for their use of a good or service this wouldn't have arisen. Of course that subject is taboo -- it is Godly ordained that the State is the only institution capable of producing the good 'Education'.
On May 29 2011 23:10 Cyba wrote: Oh another thing in Romania we study religion in school. It's literarily shoved down our throats.
I'm an atheist never believed in any of that junk and never will, i still had the respect to let them do their thing attend the class and so on. If anything it was interesting to learn their point of view.
What the problem with "atheists" like that kid there is that they want to mock other people's beliefs, NO christian will ever force you to attend a prayer it's ridiculous to asume. Also that separation shit you keep floating around, man you have no idea what secularism means, that concept is saved for islam where the church tells people what to do, not a public school where some kids and teachers want to pray.
The bolded part is cute. I like how you completely ignore the practically limitless examples of religion oppressing and forcing their views on masses of people throughout history (and even today) and try to paint the Christians like they're all good guys while the Atheists are all bad guys. Bias at its finest.
There are no good guys here, no bad guys. This issue isn't about disrepecting Christian views - it's about breaking the law and doing something unconstitutional.
This stuff goes on all the time. The kid didn't need to make a big deal out of it. I'm a Deist and quite irreligious and during Boot Camp they regularly had prayer at the end of the night. No one forced me to pray, no one pushed anything on me, nor did those of us who did not take part force ourselves upon them. I do not see anything wrong with a School-initiated prayer as long as no one is forced to take part -- which is what is Unconstitutional. Yes, it is an immensely good idea to seperate the Establishment of a State-religion which mandates all persons residing within the country, state, or otherwise to worship a certain religion. This did nothing of the sort.
I think Theists and Non-Theists need to respect each others views regardless if you disagree or not.
This excuse is absolutely ridiculous. This isn't an issue of an atheist disrespecting Christians' views - it's an issue of a public, government-funded institution endorsing one specific religion, which is absolutely against the law. This logic is quite literally saying that if it doesn't inconvenience someone too much that we should allow people to break the law. Explain how it is justifiable to break the law in this situation and then we can listen to the "he shouldn't have made such a big deal out of it" argument.
The State cannot Establish a religion (E.g. codify a National Religion). It is perfectly constitutional to have optional-prayer in School. Of course the SCOTUS also says that the NFA34, GCA68, and FOPA86 is also constitutional when it isn't (add to the fact Heller was 5-4! and the recent 8-1 Shredding of the 4th by them) I don't put much credibility in the SCOTUS being a non-biased arbiter (especially considering they are politically appointed and work for the same Government they are supposed to restrict their power). Now, I am not endorsing Socialized Government-Schools as they breed conflict (like any socialized good or service), but I do not see why this person had a problem with just not taking part in the prayer...No one was forcing him to pray, nor is there a law which makes it a crime to refuse to pray.
Perhaps if people stopped forcing others to pay for their use of a good or service this wouldn't have arisen. Of course that subject is taboo -- it is Godly ordained that the State is the only institution capable of producing the good 'Education'.
It was illegal, it was unconstitutional, this is a fact. Just because you are in denial of this is your problem, not ours. The government(school) was endorsing a specific religion. You could say, respecting an establishment of religion.
People have said the Rosa Parks analogy doesn't apply here, I would say it does.
I ride the bus often. I honestly don't see why anybody would really care about riding in the front of the bus compared to the back of the bus. The difference between them is only a few steps, it doesn't matter unless your handicapped or elderly and the handicapped get priority at the front (although I'm not sure if buses had the motorized ramp back then for wheelchairs). In fact sitting in the back is preferred by a lot of people because the very back has the most room and sitting near the back of the bus means you aren't trouble as often by people needing to sit with you as often due to new people getting on the bus. Rosa Parks did not need to protest because it inconvenienced her, at the most it was humiliating, but she can still get to work and it's not really a big deal to have to sit in the back.
In the same way non-Christians don't have to oppose this prayer, it's not a big deal overall. The prayer promoted one religion over another and spread a message everyone in the US has has heard before. "Praise be to God for everything he has done for us and be thankful for that." Why should non-Christians be offended? And it is non-Christians not just atheists.
"Big whoop it's a tradition and Christians are the majority it doesn't hurt anyone."
Well to some preaching a religion that is not theirs to a ceremony that is supposed to be all inclusive is offensive. Attributing thanks to a false prophet for achievements people believe they did themselves is offensive. No it didn't hurt anyone, but this is just an ideological stand that is supported by the law because it endorses one religion plus alienates those not of that religion.
Here is the prayer at graduation at the school, mentioning they would do a moment of silence, but a definitive Christian prayer with Jesus. The purpose of the moment of silence is to replace a religious prayer...
On May 30 2011 00:49 Cyba wrote: As i said previousily i think both sides are at fault, not that the school ppl were awesome and the kid was a dick.
If it was such a terrible offense to other faiths you would have seen those complain, not 1 random atheist who shouldn't have given a shit anyway.
Then those other religions are awesome and you are the dick. Obviously you are unable to see the logic.
Say I take one dollar away from you everyday. It'll make zero difference to your life, but it's a dollar anyway that isn't meant to be mine, so what I am doing is in fact illegal (theft). It's a minor inconvenience to you. Are you going to stop me?
On May 29 2011 23:10 Cyba wrote: Oh another thing in Romania we study religion in school. It's literarily shoved down our throats.
I'm an atheist never believed in any of that junk and never will, i still had the respect to let them do their thing attend the class and so on. If anything it was interesting to learn their point of view.
What the problem with "atheists" like that kid there is that they want to mock other people's beliefs, NO christian will ever force you to attend a prayer it's ridiculous to asume. Also that separation shit you keep floating around, man you have no idea what secularism means, that concept is saved for islam where the church tells people what to do, not a public school where some kids and teachers want to pray.
The bolded part is cute. I like how you completely ignore the practically limitless examples of religion oppressing and forcing their views on masses of people throughout history (and even today) and try to paint the Christians like they're all good guys while the Atheists are all bad guys. Bias at its finest.
There are no good guys here, no bad guys. This issue isn't about disrepecting Christian views - it's about breaking the law and doing something unconstitutional.
This stuff goes on all the time. The kid didn't need to make a big deal out of it. I'm a Deist and quite irreligious and during Boot Camp they regularly had prayer at the end of the night. No one forced me to pray, no one pushed anything on me, nor did those of us who did not take part force ourselves upon them. I do not see anything wrong with a School-initiated prayer as long as no one is forced to take part -- which is what is Unconstitutional. Yes, it is an immensely good idea to seperate the Establishment of a State-religion which mandates all persons residing within the country, state, or otherwise to worship a certain religion. This did nothing of the sort.
I think Theists and Non-Theists need to respect each others views regardless if you disagree or not.
This excuse is absolutely ridiculous. This isn't an issue of an atheist disrespecting Christians' views - it's an issue of a public, government-funded institution endorsing one specific religion, which is absolutely against the law. This logic is quite literally saying that if it doesn't inconvenience someone too much that we should allow people to break the law. Explain how it is justifiable to break the law in this situation and then we can listen to the "he shouldn't have made such a big deal out of it" argument.
The State cannot Establish a religion (E.g. codify a National Religion). It is perfectly constitutional to have optional-prayer in School. Of course the SCOTUS also says that the NFA34, GCA68, and FOPA86 is also constitutional when it isn't (add to the fact Heller was 5-4! and the recent 8-1 Shredding of the 4th by them) I don't put much credibility in the SCOTUS being a non-biased arbiter (especially considering they are politically appointed and work for the same Government they are supposed to restrict their power). Now, I am not endorsing Socialized Government-Schools as they breed conflict (like any socialized good or service), but I do not see why this person had a problem with just not taking part in the prayer...No one was forcing him to pray, nor is there a law which makes it a crime to refuse to pray.
Perhaps if people stopped forcing others to pay for their use of a good or service this wouldn't have arisen. Of course that subject is taboo -- it is Godly ordained that the State is the only institution capable of producing the good 'Education'.
It was illegal, it was unconstitutional, this is a fact. Just because you are in denial of this is your problem, not ours. The government(school) was endorsing a specific religion. You could say, respecting an establishment of religion.
Just like it is illegal to take an oath prior to taking the Stand in a court of law with your hand on a bible...Sure. The purpose of the First Amendment was to ensure the liberty of the individual to worship whom he or she chooses without Government authorities mandating State-worship or Religion. There is no mandate here. There is no State-Religion here. This was a purely voluntary prayer at a School-Graduation. Now, if the State of Mississippi established Christianity as the State-religion then I would be right there with you, but it hasn't.
I'll be the first one on the front lines with you if the State established a State-Church (Such as Church of England), or prohibited the free exercise of religious belief. If it is voluntary I really do not have a problem with the activity.
On May 29 2011 23:10 Cyba wrote: Oh another thing in Romania we study religion in school. It's literarily shoved down our throats.
I'm an atheist never believed in any of that junk and never will, i still had the respect to let them do their thing attend the class and so on. If anything it was interesting to learn their point of view.
What the problem with "atheists" like that kid there is that they want to mock other people's beliefs, NO christian will ever force you to attend a prayer it's ridiculous to asume. Also that separation shit you keep floating around, man you have no idea what secularism means, that concept is saved for islam where the church tells people what to do, not a public school where some kids and teachers want to pray.
The bolded part is cute. I like how you completely ignore the practically limitless examples of religion oppressing and forcing their views on masses of people throughout history (and even today) and try to paint the Christians like they're all good guys while the Atheists are all bad guys. Bias at its finest.
There are no good guys here, no bad guys. This issue isn't about disrepecting Christian views - it's about breaking the law and doing something unconstitutional.
This stuff goes on all the time. The kid didn't need to make a big deal out of it. I'm a Deist and quite irreligious and during Boot Camp they regularly had prayer at the end of the night. No one forced me to pray, no one pushed anything on me, nor did those of us who did not take part force ourselves upon them. I do not see anything wrong with a School-initiated prayer as long as no one is forced to take part -- which is what is Unconstitutional. Yes, it is an immensely good idea to seperate the Establishment of a State-religion which mandates all persons residing within the country, state, or otherwise to worship a certain religion. This did nothing of the sort.
I think Theists and Non-Theists need to respect each others views regardless if you disagree or not.
This excuse is absolutely ridiculous. This isn't an issue of an atheist disrespecting Christians' views - it's an issue of a public, government-funded institution endorsing one specific religion, which is absolutely against the law. This logic is quite literally saying that if it doesn't inconvenience someone too much that we should allow people to break the law. Explain how it is justifiable to break the law in this situation and then we can listen to the "he shouldn't have made such a big deal out of it" argument.
The State cannot Establish a religion (E.g. codify a National Religion). It is perfectly constitutional to have optional-prayer in School. Of course the SCOTUS also says that the NFA34, GCA68, and FOPA86 is also constitutional when it isn't (add to the fact Heller was 5-4! and the recent 8-1 Shredding of the 4th by them) I don't put much credibility in the SCOTUS being a non-biased arbiter (especially considering they are politically appointed and work for the same Government they are supposed to restrict their power). Now, I am not endorsing Socialized Government-Schools as they breed conflict (like any socialized good or service), but I do not see why this person had a problem with just not taking part in the prayer...No one was forcing him to pray, nor is there a law which makes it a crime to refuse to pray.
Perhaps if people stopped forcing others to pay for their use of a good or service this wouldn't have arisen. Of course that subject is taboo -- it is Godly ordained that the State is the only institution capable of producing the good 'Education'.
It was illegal, it was unconstitutional, this is a fact. Just because you are in denial of this is your problem, not ours. The government(school) was endorsing a specific religion. You could say, respecting an establishment of religion.
Just like it is illegal to take an oath prior to taking the Stand in a court of law with your hand on a bible...Sure. The purpose of the First Amendment was to ensure the liberty of the individual to worship whom he or she chooses without Government authorities mandating State-worship or Religion. There is no mandate here. There is no State-Religion here. This was a purely voluntary prayer at a School-Graduation. Now, if the State of Mississippi established Christianity as the State-religion then I would be right there with you, but it hasn't.
I'll be the first one on the front lines with you if the State established a State-Church (Such as Church of England), or prohibited the free exercise of religious belief. If it is voluntary I really do not have a problem with the activity.
It's not just mandate, it's ANY KIND OF endorsement or support, any favoritism shown to a certain religion, at least that's how the supreme court and the law sees it, and I agree. And this was a graduation, he did have to sit through a prayer, what do you suggest that he just not graduate to avoid a prayer, or that he SHOULD be forced to sit through it?
[B]On May 30 2011 00:01 Wegandi wrote:I do not see anything wrong with a School-initiated prayer as long as no one is forced to take part -- which is what is Unconstitutional. Yes, it is an immensely good idea to seperate the Establishment of a State-religion which mandates all persons residing within the country, state, or otherwise to worship a certain religion. This did nothing of the sort.
Being required to sit through prayers of a religion that is not your own is "taking part".
On May 29 2011 21:07 DeepElemBlues wrote: He is a brat. No Christians were forcing him to believe in Jesus. No one was harming him at all. Hiding behind the Establishment Clause is a convenient way to be a dick and grab Absolute Moral Authority (TM).
If he hadn't tried to get the prayer thrown out it would have happened and it would have absolutely no meaning to his life whatsoever. No one would have ostracized him and I doubt that two days later he would have even remembered what the wording of the prayer was. Maybe not even two hours later.
Wow, it's shocking to me how twisted your arguments are... and I get the impression that you literally see this as the clear truth without any spin added to it at all.
Please step back and look at what you are doing here and at least recognize how it looks. First you belittle him and insult him for actually caring that the law was broken and that he was offended. This is no different than a bully insulting, shoving, and hitting a kid and then later saying "I was just playing, why is he making a big deal out of nothing here".
But the real point of modern atheism is to denigrate, marginalize, and destroy religion, not to disbelieve. So he had to "assert his rights" or whatever and cause a big stink. Atheists just can't leave religionists alone. But remember, it's religionists who are oppressive.
Name me one case of a Christian or any other religion suing in court to force atheists to do anythign. There are hundreds where atheists try to force religionists to stop practicing their religion in a certain place because the poor little atheists are being oppressed. When that claim of oppression is obviouslybullshit, is it any wonder Christians or other religionists start to feel hostile towards atheists?
No. The point of atheism is to be free of religion. When the government requires you to attend a prayer, that becomes a problem, so he did have to stand up and assert his rights.
Somehow you twist "please don't force me to do things illegally" into the story of an atheist who is trying to force Christians to do something. Basically your complaint is "stop forcing me to not force you to do things!", and that is patently ridiculous.
Atheists do not want to force Christians to do anything. They want Christians to stop breaking the law and stop forcing others to attend Christian prayers. There is a time and a place for religion, and neither of those are at government run events.
It is difficult to find a court case where a Christian is trying to force an atheist to stop forcing others to follow his ways, because it rarely ever happens. I suppose you could count the legal battle against teaching evolution in school, in which atheists want to "force" the teaching of hard facts only.
Upholding the law is the last arrow in the quiver of the respectable atheist or atheist supporter, but it's a flimsy one. Sure, the Establishment Clause says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. Now take some leaps and bounds and a prayer at a graduation ceremony is an imposition of religion.
Those "leaps and bounds" were made by the Supreme Court of the United States. Don't most Christians claim to love America and be patriotic etc... well why is the US Constitution being treated like it's irrelevant here? Supreme Court decisions are a mild annoyance that people shouldn't actually pay attention to?
Seems a lot like "I love America and the Constitution is great and the Founding Fathers knew best, except for when saying this doesn't suit me."
If atheists stop trying to order theists around, maybe theists will stop ostracizing them for being jerks. Maybe not too, the American South is... a different universe nearly.
This really is the crux of the argument. Once you can see that "stop forcing me to attend your religious services" is not exactly "ordering theists around" and being a jerk, then I think you'll understand the issue better.
The prayer at a public institution is illegal the same as a communal cigarette would be illegal. Now pretend the cigarette is religion and you don't want to be exposed to secondhand Christianity, and all the law agrees with you. If you're a Christian, as people have said before, pretend it were a prayer for some other religion (I assume this is more poignant than pretending you belonged to a different religion but the prayer was still some Christian sect).
On May 29 2011 23:10 Cyba wrote: Oh another thing in Romania we study religion in school. It's literarily shoved down our throats.
I'm an atheist never believed in any of that junk and never will, i still had the respect to let them do their thing attend the class and so on. If anything it was interesting to learn their point of view.
What the problem with "atheists" like that kid there is that they want to mock other people's beliefs, NO christian will ever force you to attend a prayer it's ridiculous to asume. Also that separation shit you keep floating around, man you have no idea what secularism means, that concept is saved for islam where the church tells people what to do, not a public school where some kids and teachers want to pray.
The bolded part is cute. I like how you completely ignore the practically limitless examples of religion oppressing and forcing their views on masses of people throughout history (and even today) and try to paint the Christians like they're all good guys while the Atheists are all bad guys. Bias at its finest.
There are no good guys here, no bad guys. This issue isn't about disrepecting Christian views - it's about breaking the law and doing something unconstitutional.
This stuff goes on all the time. The kid didn't need to make a big deal out of it. I'm a Deist and quite irreligious and during Boot Camp they regularly had prayer at the end of the night. No one forced me to pray, no one pushed anything on me, nor did those of us who did not take part force ourselves upon them. I do not see anything wrong with a School-initiated prayer as long as no one is forced to take part -- which is what is Unconstitutional. Yes, it is an immensely good idea to seperate the Establishment of a State-religion which mandates all persons residing within the country, state, or otherwise to worship a certain religion. This did nothing of the sort.
I think Theists and Non-Theists need to respect each others views regardless if you disagree or not.
This excuse is absolutely ridiculous. This isn't an issue of an atheist disrespecting Christians' views - it's an issue of a public, government-funded institution endorsing one specific religion, which is absolutely against the law. This logic is quite literally saying that if it doesn't inconvenience someone too much that we should allow people to break the law. Explain how it is justifiable to break the law in this situation and then we can listen to the "he shouldn't have made such a big deal out of it" argument.
The State cannot Establish a religion (E.g. codify a National Religion). It is perfectly constitutional to have optional-prayer in School. Of course the SCOTUS also says that the NFA34, GCA68, and FOPA86 is also constitutional when it isn't (add to the fact Heller was 5-4! and the recent 8-1 Shredding of the 4th by them) I don't put much credibility in the SCOTUS being a non-biased arbiter (especially considering they are politically appointed and work for the same Government they are supposed to restrict their power). Now, I am not endorsing Socialized Government-Schools as they breed conflict (like any socialized good or service), but I do not see why this person had a problem with just not taking part in the prayer...No one was forcing him to pray, nor is there a law which makes it a crime to refuse to pray.
Perhaps if people stopped forcing others to pay for their use of a good or service this wouldn't have arisen. Of course that subject is taboo -- it is Godly ordained that the State is the only institution capable of producing the good 'Education'.
It was illegal, it was unconstitutional, this is a fact. Just because you are in denial of this is your problem, not ours. The government(school) was endorsing a specific religion. You could say, respecting an establishment of religion.
Just like it is illegal to take an oath prior to taking the Stand in a court of law with your hand on a bible...Sure. The purpose of the First Amendment was to ensure the liberty of the individual to worship whom he or she chooses without Government authorities mandating State-worship or Religion. There is no mandate here. There is no State-Religion here. This was a purely voluntary prayer at a School-Graduation. Now, if the State of Mississippi established Christianity as the State-religion then I would be right there with you, but it hasn't.
I'll be the first one on the front lines with you if the State established a State-Church (Such as Church of England), or prohibited the free exercise of religious belief. If it is voluntary I really do not have a problem with the activity.
A non-Christian can ask to not be sworn in over a Bible. This was not an optional exercise. If this kid didn't want to listen to it, he'd have to not participate in the ceremony, and that isn't a viable excuse - it's already been mentioned how significant a person's high school graduation ceremony is in this culture. It's not ok to say that this kid would have to skip that to not go through a Christian prayer during a public school graduation ceremony.
EPT
