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No doubt the Christians felt they were doing something that Jesus would have been proud of, feeling that sense of pride in their hearts for "standing up against Satan" and the evils of society that is becoming decayed to atheism - but they don't realise that in to everyone else (and specifically those that they were meant to help 'save' and show the meekness of Jesus to) they just come across as arrogant and chest-thumping.
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On May 30 2011 01:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 00:59 Wegandi wrote:On May 30 2011 00:44 Olinim wrote:On May 30 2011 00:40 Wegandi wrote:On May 30 2011 00:15 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 29 2011 23:10 Cyba wrote:
Oh another thing in Romania we study religion in school. It's literarily shoved down our throats.
I'm an atheist never believed in any of that junk and never will, i still had the respect to let them do their thing attend the class and so on. If anything it was interesting to learn their point of view.
What the problem with "atheists" like that kid there is that they want to mock other people's beliefs, NO christian will ever force you to attend a prayer it's ridiculous to asume. Also that separation shit you keep floating around, man you have no idea what secularism means, that concept is saved for islam where the church tells people what to do, not a public school where some kids and teachers want to pray.
The bolded part is cute. I like how you completely ignore the practically limitless examples of religion oppressing and forcing their views on masses of people throughout history (and even today) and try to paint the Christians like they're all good guys while the Atheists are all bad guys. Bias at its finest. There are no good guys here, no bad guys. This issue isn't about disrepecting Christian views - it's about breaking the law and doing something unconstitutional. This stuff goes on all the time. The kid didn't need to make a big deal out of it. I'm a Deist and quite irreligious and during Boot Camp they regularly had prayer at the end of the night. No one forced me to pray, no one pushed anything on me, nor did those of us who did not take part force ourselves upon them. I do not see anything wrong with a School-initiated prayer as long as no one is forced to take part -- which is what is Unconstitutional. Yes, it is an immensely good idea to seperate the Establishment of a State-religion which mandates all persons residing within the country, state, or otherwise to worship a certain religion. This did nothing of the sort.
I think Theists and Non-Theists need to respect each others views regardless if you disagree or not. This excuse is absolutely ridiculous. This isn't an issue of an atheist disrespecting Christians' views - it's an issue of a public, government-funded institution endorsing one specific religion, which is absolutely against the law. This logic is quite literally saying that if it doesn't inconvenience someone too much that we should allow people to break the law. Explain how it is justifiable to break the law in this situation and then we can listen to the "he shouldn't have made such a big deal out of it" argument. The State cannot Establish a religion (E.g. codify a National Religion). It is perfectly constitutional to have optional-prayer in School. Of course the SCOTUS also says that the NFA34, GCA68, and FOPA86 is also constitutional when it isn't (add to the fact Heller was 5-4! and the recent 8-1 Shredding of the 4th by them) I don't put much credibility in the SCOTUS being a non-biased arbiter (especially considering they are politically appointed and work for the same Government they are supposed to restrict their power). Now, I am not endorsing Socialized Government-Schools as they breed conflict (like any socialized good or service), but I do not see why this person had a problem with just not taking part in the prayer...No one was forcing him to pray, nor is there a law which makes it a crime to refuse to pray. Perhaps if people stopped forcing others to pay for their use of a good or service this wouldn't have arisen. Of course that subject is taboo -- it is Godly ordained that the State is the only institution capable of producing the good 'Education'. It was illegal, it was unconstitutional, this is a fact. Just because you are in denial of this is your problem, not ours. The government(school) was endorsing a specific religion. You could say, respecting an establishment of religion. Just like it is illegal to take an oath prior to taking the Stand in a court of law with your hand on a bible...Sure. The purpose of the First Amendment was to ensure the liberty of the individual to worship whom he or she chooses without Government authorities mandating State-worship or Religion. There is no mandate here. There is no State-Religion here. This was a purely voluntary prayer at a School-Graduation. Now, if the State of Mississippi established Christianity as the State-religion then I would be right there with you, but it hasn't. I'll be the first one on the front lines with you if the State established a State-Church (Such as Church of England), or prohibited the free exercise of religious belief. If it is voluntary I really do not have a problem with the activity. A non-Christian can ask to not be sworn in over a Bible. This was not an optional exercise. If this kid didn't want to listen to it, he'd have to not participate in the ceremony, and that isn't a viable excuse - it's already been mentioned how significant a person's high school graduation ceremony is in this culture. It's not ok to say that this kid would have to skip that to not go through a Christian prayer during a public school graduation ceremony.
especially since the prayer is completely illegal and should even still be happening due to the supreme court cases that i mentioned in earlier posts.
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Nobody forced this kid to pray. They held a prayer. This isn't a battle of religion vs atheism, it's a battle between a smartass and everyone else. I'm not religious but I don't go shitting on people who are.
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On May 30 2011 06:18 Synapze wrote:
Nobody forced this kid to pray. They held a prayer. This isn't a battle of religion vs atheism, it's a battle between a smartass and everyone else. I'm not religious but I don't go shitting on people who are.
Yes they held a school sanctioned prayer during a graduation, this is a battle of its freaking unconstitutional and illegal vs "lolhowdare this kid stand up for his rights"
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Real religious people wouldn't shit on Damon the way they did, what the hell were they thinking... DEATH THREATS!?
Facepalm at the parents, kicking out your own son that you raised for 18 years or w/e because of something as silly as this, pieces of shit.
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It was an over reaction, but by the same token the guy's an idiot. It's just one public prayer, it wasn't going to hurt him. It's more like he was hating on them first, and they're retaliating.
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On May 30 2011 06:28 manicshock wrote:
It was an over reaction, but by the same token the guy's an idiot. It's just one public prayer, it wasn't going to hurt him. It's more like he was hating on them first, and they're retaliating.
More like they infringed on his rights, and he reacted.
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On May 30 2011 06:30 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 06:28 manicshock wrote:
It was an over reaction, but by the same token the guy's an idiot. It's just one public prayer, it wasn't going to hurt him. It's more like he was hating on them first, and they're retaliating. More like they infringed on his rights, and he reacted.
how did they infringe on his rights?
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On May 30 2011 06:32 FecalFrown wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 06:30 Olinim wrote:On May 30 2011 06:28 manicshock wrote:
It was an over reaction, but by the same token the guy's an idiot. It's just one public prayer, it wasn't going to hurt him. It's more like he was hating on them first, and they're retaliating. More like they infringed on his rights, and he reacted. how did they infringe on his rights?
Because school sanctioned prayer is illegal, and he shouldn't have to sit through it?
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so being forced to sit through some boring platitudes that you dont care about in school is illegal? i wish someone had told me that when i was in highschool.
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I wouldn't say that he was overreacting at all, in fact, I would have probably done the same thing. When your entire law and constitution is based on separation of church and state, and the prayer is governmentally funded, this suggests that the government favors Christianity which is true. For a country to be truly tolerant of all religions and cultures it must remain neutral on this matter. And the only way for that is for religious activities to not be sponsored by the government. It doesn't matter whether you are an atheist or a Christian you have to realize that the state cannot pick a religion because the US was created as a country of all cultures and traditions. This is why anything funded by the government CAN and SHOULD be religiously neutral. Everyone should have their rights, even the single atheist in a graduation ceremony. The only way for that to start happening and for non religious people to be taken seriously by the Christian politicians and government people is to stand up for our beliefs and rights. Only by protesting can change be made, not by "dealing" with it and letting it go
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I can see how his request could be annoying to the school, as most non-religious people don't have as much of a problem with public/sanctioned prayer, but the people have gone WAY to far in response. He absolutely does not deserve such treatment, especially not the death threats or rage of his parents. So what if you can't have an official prayer at graduation; it might bother some people but is certainly not worth acting like animals towards someone.
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You have the right not to be inconvenienced by something that makes alot of other people happy for a whole 5 minutes ! Should suit your asses in gray/black uniforms so nobody can be inconvenienced by your terrible taste, and maybe just not talk to eachother case you might disagree at which point you'll feel inconvenienced.
And something just has to be done about fibery food at the cafeteria, shouldn't be allowed to run around with coke bottles either since the pepsi drinkers might get offended.
Sounds like democracy and shit right there.
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On May 30 2011 06:52 Cyba wrote:
You have the right not to be inconvenienced by something that makes alot of other people happy for a whole 5 minutes ! Should suit your asses in gray/black uniforms so nobody can be inconvenienced by your terrible taste, and maybe just not talk to eachother case you might disagree at which point you'll feel inconvenienced.
And something just has to be done about fibery food at the cafeteria, shouldn't be allowed to run around with coke bottles either since the pepsi drinkers might get offended.
Sounds like democracy and shit right there.
Simply because you have absolutely no consideration or understanding of separation of church and state doesn't mean were easily offended.
Your analogy also fails since people are freely running around with their coke and pepsi bottles, it's just that neither should be promoted by the government institution.
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On May 30 2011 06:52 Cyba wrote:
You have the right not to be inconvenienced by something that makes alot of other people happy for a whole 5 minutes ! Should suit your asses in gray/black uniforms so nobody can be inconvenienced by your terrible taste, and maybe just not talk to eachother case you might disagree at which point you'll feel inconvenienced.
And something just has to be done about fibery food at the cafeteria, shouldn't be allowed to run around with coke bottles either since the pepsi drinkers might get offended.
Sounds like democracy and shit right there.
Why do people not understand that this is government issue, and that school is a government institution, and that not all kids in this world share the same religion (or have religion at all in some cases)?
It's insanely rude for a school to be holding Christian prayers at a graduation ceremony.
How the **** do some people not understand that?
Anyone is allowed to pray in this country as long as you do it on your own time. But when it comes to community events, run by the government and paid for by taxpayers, I'll gladly "infringe" on people's right to make a prayer out of it.
These "mild Christians" just couldn't bear to respectfully abstain their religion from what is supposed to be a simple, menial, secular, school event. Not out of respect for another human being who doesn't share their beliefs but yet has just as much right as anyone else to be there. Their lack of understanding, and their incapacity capacity for shame and doubt is a true disgrace.
They make a prayer out of vindictive behavior. They insult this Atheist kid, their school, their God, and themselves.
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On May 30 2011 06:41 FecalFrown wrote:
so being forced to sit through some boring platitudes that you dont care about in school is illegal? i wish someone had told me that when i was in highschool.
He didn't mean illegal as a hyperbole. It is literally illegal what they are doing.
Holding a prayer in the fashion that they did is utterly against the constitution. You can't even debate it, it's very clear. A seperation of church and state. Again, let me be clear, when we say it's illegal we don't just throw the word around to make a point, it actually is illegal in the sense that it's forbidden by law.
You have the right not to be inconvenienced by something that makes alot of other people happy for a whole 5 minutes ! Should suit your asses in gray/black uniforms so nobody can be inconvenienced by your terrible taste, and maybe just not talk to eachother case you might disagree at which point you'll feel inconvenienced.
And something just has to be done about fibery food at the cafeteria, shouldn't be allowed to run around with coke bottles either since the pepsi drinkers might get offended.
Sounds like democracy and shit right there.
Separation of church and state is one of the most important things for a modern civilized society. This is forbidden under that and regardless of how small you might consider it, breaching this would lead to very disturbing situations.
If they want to hold these they can do so in a private school or alter it to a point where it's essentially the same but not led by the school wich is part of the government. You don't chip away small parts of something like the separation of church and state and just shrug. People will come for more when they see you giving away the keys to a free society.
Separation of church and state cannot and should not be up for debate and permitting this stuff is a step in the worst possible direction.
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On May 30 2011 07:22 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 06:41 FecalFrown wrote:
so being forced to sit through some boring platitudes that you dont care about in school is illegal? i wish someone had told me that when i was in highschool. He didn't mean illegal as a hyperbole. It is literally illegal what they are doing. Holding a prayer in the fashion that they did is utterly against the constitution. You can't even debate it, it's very clear. A seperation of church and state. Again, let me be clear, when we say it's illegal we don't just throw the word around to make a point, it actually is illegal in the sense that it's forbidden by law. Show nested quote +You have the right not to be inconvenienced by something that makes alot of other people happy for a whole 5 minutes ! Should suit your asses in gray/black uniforms so nobody can be inconvenienced by your terrible taste, and maybe just not talk to eachother case you might disagree at which point you'll feel inconvenienced.
And something just has to be done about fibery food at the cafeteria, shouldn't be allowed to run around with coke bottles either since the pepsi drinkers might get offended.
Sounds like democracy and shit right there. Separation of church and state is one of the most important things for a modern civilized society. This is forbidden under that and regardless of how small you might consider it, breaching this would lead to very disturbing situations. If they want to hold these they can do so in a private school or alter it to a point where it's essentially the same but not led by the school wich is part of the government. You don't chip away small parts of something like the separation of church and state and just shrug. People will come for more when they see you giving away the keys to a free society. Separation of church and state cannot and should not be up for debate and permitting this stuff is a step in the worst possible direction.
This.
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I'll agree with you 100% when i see somebody of a different religion whine, not just 1 atheist.
How do you treat oldschool islamic students that need to pray every 4 hours or sum shit like that i wonder ? :D
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On May 30 2011 07:43 Cyba wrote:
I'll agree with you 100% when i see somebody of a different religion whine, not just 1 atheist.
How do you treat oldschool islamic students that need to pray every 4 hours or sum shit like that i wonder ? :D
Let them go do it on their own without having other students sit through it. I don't think anyone who isn't an Islamophobe would have a problem with that. But for a school to actually sanction a prayer during a graduation ceremony that all students are attending is a direct violation of the basic principle of separation of church from state.
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