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On May 10 2011 09:39 TALegion wrote:1/100, and I find that hard to believe. 1/30 is ridiculous.
Compared to what exactly? Some years ago we weren't even aware that it existed yet that didn't stop people living and coping with it.
23 years ago my brother was considered a retard by his teachers... turns out later that he has dyslexia and only couldn't tell the difference of some letters. The fear of being called stupid was the real problem.
Our definition of normal is pretty sketchy imho.
A bit of topic perhaps but Ken Robinson has a brilliant talk about this that might be of interest as a side note.
http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html
edit: forgot link ^^
On May 10 2011 09:51 BrTarolg wrote:
Its a spectrum, some people have it more than others
There are key and specific defining characteristics of it and the more boxes you tick, the further along the spectrum you are
Thats all there is to it really.
Having said that, society should be more accepting of people who are on that end of the autistic spectrum. It is very common that the further down you are, the more likely you are to be bullied, ostracised, and shunned by general society, especially as a young child. The further down you are, the slower your social and emotional development is going to be, and it affects your life adversely.
So no, it isn't just an "excuse" - that's just the way some people are. Some people find it difficult to socialise and empathise with how others feel. If more people could be understanding of that and be nice to each other regardless instead of using these people as easy targets, then there wouldn't be a problem in the first place
Some people on the high end of the autistic spectrum get better and develop socially, but slowly, in their own special, logical and reasoned way. Often they use their unique disposition to their advantage in life
Some people never get exposed to their own functions or dysfunctions and thus never really get to do anything about it. Some just don't know how or what to do about it.
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So no, it is not just a joke problem that one can be ignored. In fact, it shouldn't be viewed as a problem in the first place
As far as I care, anything that causes society to be more accepting and understanding of a wider variety of personalities, and not constantly demand that of the purist extrovert is a good path to follow.
edit: it also ruined the majority of my childhood. Nothing hurts more than people just hating you and not understanding why, or what you have done.
Excellent post man! I should let you do the talking. ^^
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On May 10 2011 10:12 Tjubatjubs wrote:
A bit of topic perhaps but Ken Robinson has a brilliant talk about this that might be of interest as a side note.
If possible, do you think you could provide a link? That sounds like something I'd like to listen to.
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I was diagnosed with ADD when i was like 8, and i started taking Ritalin which hugely improved my life quality, i stopped fighting all the time i actually payed attention in class and i got some work done.
But it has its downsides, like massive depressions, the fact that it works like speed on your body and you never want to eat, and the fact that you become a soulless emotionless machine.
Other then that it was really helpful in my youth, now im at an age where i have mostly outgrown it, at least the worst parts, i still rage like nobodies business and occasionally that gets me into quite a lot of trouble. But i deal with it, its better to feel something then not to feel at all is my take on it.
I do not have a lot of experience with Autism / aspregers but i had a friend when i was younger who was a little different and finally was diagnosed with aspergers, and it explained quite a lot, and it really helped him in school and in general life, so i think as long as the diagnose is actually real and not just an excuse for a overly energetic child or trying to cover up for some other diagnose/illness i dont see anything bad by people getting help with their disadvantages.
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ADHD is incredibly vague and many psychatrists outside of America will never ever diagnosis it. Aspergers less so, it has quite a few clear patterns, while it may be abused there is a very clear set of patterns of behavior to look for.
Bipolar on the other hand is really fucking hard to missdiagnose if you've ever known some one of that's suffered from it, or have it yourself. Mania is a pretty damn unique thing, and anyone who's ever experienced or seen someone in it knows what it looks like, and any psych misdiagnosing it is either abusive or retarded.
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On May 10 2011 09:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
I think ADD definitely is. When you go into the field of teaching, you find out that a ridiculous number of your kids need an IEP for... being energetic, off-the-wall, and occasionally bored.
those symptoms are merely personality traits and I agree with you. Levels of energy are also directly related to living conditions. I also feel ADHD and ADD are over diagnosed, much like autism. With ADD you can always go the "perscription drug conspiracy" but with autism it's different. I feel that people, and parents especially, would rather have a doctor stick a name on a potential symptom, write a prescriptio and not actually deal with the problem. It's easier that way.
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I don't know much about autism, but looking at the symptoms could it be that very mild forms of autism are "normal". Could it sometimes even be a beneficial trait in the context of the latest human evolution?
I would be very careful to give medication against something we don't even fully understand, especially in cases where the disadvantages aren't even severe. Who is "normal" anyway?
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I tried to do a little bit of research, but I'm still confused on this issue.
So autism does not have any underlying physiological source? Like we can't identify something specifically wrong with the brain by which we could diagnosis people from? So our diagnosis comes purely from observed characteristics of the person?
If this is the case, I do not understand on what basis I could make a claim that it is over diagnosed. If people share the characteristics of it why would it make a difference how many there are?
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On May 10 2011 10:07 Aeres wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 10:04 Wonderballs wrote:
Yes; my personal reasoning behind the "over-diagnosis" is to keep pharmacists and doctors making cash. Everything is motivated by money, everything. I'll assume that this is a jab at my "pharmaceutical conspiracy" remark. That was a joke, and from the looks of it, a pretty bad one. It wasn't really meant to be taken seriously. If this is your actual perspective on the matter, then we'd better put on those tinfoil caps. :D
Not that i think its about the cash
I think it has more to do with the fact that young children are getting prescribed really powerful drugs from a young age that they POSSIBLY dont need. These drugs can affect chemistry in the brain and possibly cause more problems?
I mean; they are kids ! obviously they dont want to pay attention to homework and such(very basic diagnosis of add, im no doc so dont flame me for being wrong which i probably am). It may seem like they have a disorder but they probably Dont.
im not saying im right but its something to think about.
This post sums up what my opinion on over-diagnosed disorders is.
On May 10 2011 09:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
I think ADD definitely is. When you go into the field of teaching, you find out that a ridiculous number of your kids need an IEP for... being energetic, off-the-wall, and occasionally bored.
and this gentleman response to plasmaball
those symptoms are merely personality traits and I agree with you. Levels of energy are also directly related to living conditions. I also feel ADHD and ADD are over diagnosed, much like autism. With ADD you can always go the "perscription drug conspiracy" but with autism it's different. I feel that people, and parents especially, would rather have a doctor stick a name on a potential symptom, write a prescriptio and not actually deal with the problem. It's easier that way.
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When I was younger I had ADD and between ages 10-14 I was in a special class at my school.
We we're 7 kids in this class and even though I don't know the diagnosis of the others most we're socially inept and/or had learning disorders (atleast one girl was also mentally challenged).
And honestly that was the worst four years of my life as I basically didn't have any friends as I considered everyone else "weird" (I was young) and all my learning was done being with a teacher alone as I was keeping up with the normal education pace.
But that's typical generic treatment of a letter diagnosis which is why I feel you need to be very careful with them and tailor especially schools treatment of kids with them alot more sensitively to individual needs.
But thats costly and its so easy for schools to just choose a more convenient way like this.
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On May 10 2011 10:17 Befree wrote:
I tried to do a little bit of research, but I'm still confused on this issue.
So autism does not have any underlying physiological source? Like we can't identify something specifically wrong with the brain by which we could diagnosis people from? So our diagnosis comes purely from observed characteristics of the person?
If this is the case, I do not understand on what basis I could make a claim that it is over diagnosed. If people share the characteristics of it why would it make a difference how many there are?
My train of thought was basically this: Currently, it seems to me that autism / ADD / ADHD / etc. are being used to "conveniently" diagnose people who may not have the disorder in the first place. For example, say little Timmy is a pretty hyper kid. He is always full of energy, and can't seem to sit still during class. From some people I've talked to about this, it's fairly likely that Timmy could be diagnosed with ADHD or something. I feel that the possibility of "He's a hyper kid" and similar things are being cast aside in favor of a medical diagnosis that may not be accurate, but certainly works as an excuse.
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TBH I think 80% of the people labeled with ADHD are just stupid, hyper, or lazy and don't actually have anything mentally wrong with them. My best friend's mom was worried about him for sometime when he was in middle school and she took him to a doctor and he got diagnosed with ADHD and was given medicine for it. Eventually we got around to talking about it and he kinda admitted that he was just lazy and just didn't choose to do his homework or w/e was needed. He never had an attention problem he just wasn't motivated I guess.
I guess my thought process goes along the same route for Autism, the borderline people, not the "savants" and the noticeably mentally handicapped ones.
I think it's just another excuse something people can blame things on and not themselves to escape responsibilities.
Side note. I took a free test at a ADHD awareness stand at a festival once and I had 5/6 of the symptons they tested for. I always joke about it sometimes as my excuse for not doing things sometimes because I clearly don't have it or it's never effected me. Straight A/Bs through all my school and usually the hardest worker when compared to my co-workers. I guess ADHD is a good thing right?
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SoCal8910 Posts
on a personal level, i do feel that AD/HD is over diagnosed and in fact to my detriment.
as someone that has suffered from the disorder at an early age, my parents have grown ever weary of its over diagnosis and abuse of the medication prescribed for the diagnosis. unfortunately, because of people abusing the medication and my mom's paranoia, i have been ready to crawl out of my own skin and personally i think its a shame someone who has it should be suffering at the expense of those out there that are wrongfully diagnosed.
as for the autism spectrum disorders, i dont think its quite as severe. the symptoms (not so much for aspergers but definitely for the lower functioning end of the spectrum) are quite defined and its hard to be not classified/wrongfully classified as most of these children are non-verbal.
as the spectrum grows and expands, however I think that we will start to see more children diagnosed with a higher functioning disorder such as aspergers when in fact they are not actually affected with it.
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On May 10 2011 10:13 Hut wrote:
I was diagnosed with ADD when i was like 8, and i started taking Ritalin which hugely improved my life quality, i stopped fighting all the time i actually payed attention in class and i got some work done.
But it has its downsides, like massive depressions, the fact that it works like speed on your body and you never want to eat, and the fact that you become a soulless emotionless machine.
I remember Ritalin helping as well but eventually I rebeled against it because I was becoming very aware of what an extreme personality change that medicine was having on me.
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On May 10 2011 09:31 bonifaceviii wrote:
I'd say full-blown autism isn't overdiagnosed. It's just that the "spectrum" has been extended a bit too far.
As for the drug conspiracy, as far as I know there aren't any drugs prescribed for Asperger's?
I'd have to agree with this. I have a cousin who has full-blown autism and quite clearly needs assistance for many things for the rest of her life, which is a completely different situation than many other people who seem to be diagnosed with some form of autism. I do feel too like they are broadening the scope of it a bit too far and labeling even minor symptoms that really shouldn't be much of a problem.
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On May 10 2011 10:19 Popss wrote:
When I was younger I had ADD and between ages 10-14 I was in a special class at my school.
We we're 7 kids in this class and even though I don't know the diagnosis of the others most we're socially inept and/or had learning disorders (atleast one girl was also mentally challenged).
And honestly that was the worst four years of my life as I basically didn't have any friends as I considered everyone else "weird" (I was young) and all my learning was done being with a teacher alone as I was keeping up with the normal education pace.
But that's typical generic treatment of a letter diagnosis which is why I feel you need to be very careful with them and tailor especially schools treatment of kids with them alot more sensitively to individual needs.
But thats costly and its so easy for schools to just choose a more convenient way like this.
For what it's worth, American schools have taken a huge push towards moving students with learning disabilities into the "least restrictive environment".
This means that they won't be taken out of a regular classroom (and put into a private, special classroom) if they don't have to. Instead, they'll be put in regular courses with other students who don't need IEPs or modifications... these types of classrooms that include students with special diagnoses are called Inclusion Classrooms.
There are pros and cons of inclusive teaching that I won't go into right now (since it could derail the thread), but it may not cause as much ostracism for those with learning disabilities. Also, keep in mind that IEPs are private and personal, and teachers have to walk on eggshells so they don't embarrass students with problems.
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its both imo. We've gotten better at diagnosing and more aware of things like autism. But there defintely is too much fear of not being "normal" and autism and such disability seems to be the common scapegoat.
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On May 10 2011 10:28 Popss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 10:13 Hut wrote:
I was diagnosed with ADD when i was like 8, and i started taking Ritalin which hugely improved my life quality, i stopped fighting all the time i actually payed attention in class and i got some work done.
But it has its downsides, like massive depressions, the fact that it works like speed on your body and you never want to eat, and the fact that you become a soulless emotionless machine. I remember Ritalin helping as well but eventually I rebeled against it because I was becoming very aware of what an extreme personality change that medicine was having on me.
Indeed, i felt like i was not myself whenever i was on the medicine, the changes it does to a persons personality is rather drastic at times.
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On May 10 2011 10:28 Angra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 09:31 bonifaceviii wrote:
I'd say full-blown autism isn't overdiagnosed. It's just that the "spectrum" has been extended a bit too far.
As for the drug conspiracy, as far as I know there aren't any drugs prescribed for Asperger's? I'd have to agree with this. I have a cousin who has full-blown autism and quite clearly needs assistance for many things for the rest of her life, which is a completely different situation than many other people who seem to be diagnosed with some form of autism. I do feel too like they are broadening the scope of it a bit too far and labeling even minor symptoms that really shouldn't be much of a problem.
The lower-end of the spectrum almost seems to currently be a hypochondriacs dream...
"Well I really don't like talking to people..." "Aspergers? Therapy? Only 50 bajillion dollars a week? OK!!!"
We seem to be reaching a point where each personality type can be deemed as a form of autism. It's definitely my personal opinion, but I think there is only so far you can go with diagnosing mental disorders and we are beginning to pass that point.
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So tell me if I understand this correctly, there's a spectrum of social behaviors between autistic and normal and recently more and more of the medical field has decided to draw their dividing line a bit closer to the norm? I don't understand the problem here, would you rather have them ignore the mild cases and only focus on severe ones? It sounds like the problem isn't the diagnoses but rather the processes by which the treat/deal with people diagnosed
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On May 10 2011 09:52 Aeres wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 09:44 mAKiTO wrote:
you state that you did seem to think you were different than other kids, what made you feel that one? how are you different?
I know very little on the subject, I have only met a couple of autistic kids while working for a chiropractor, but they were pretty bad(and saw wonders of what the chiro adjustments did) , and judging by how you write and communicate yourself on here you seem to be pretty normal nothing compared with those kids that I met.
did you feel you couldve been in normal classes instead of special ed in middle school or high school?
very interesting subject btw As a kid, I was far more introverted than everyone else. Pretty much all through grade school, I avoided social contact because I felt I didn't really need it; I was much more at ease just being by myself or with a couple of close friends, talking about relevant subjects, reading books, telling jokes, etc. I guess my social life in grade school was a drastically miniaturized version of your standard Joe Schmoe, in that I conversed normally with the few friends I had (about three or four), but far more often than not, I'd be playing on my DS, playing memory games, solving crossword puzzles, and all that. I did not react well to social stimuli from those I didn't know very well, so I tended to avoid them if at all possible. I was also a gigantic dick to people I disliked, and wasn't afraid to tell them that they were total sacks of shit. Mostly because I'm a blunt kind of person (I tell things like it is, and I despise euphemisms), but that sort of attitude led to other people describing me as strange. Cool, I just diagnosed myself as autistic :D
But yea, like others said. Medicine is not an exact science. It's really hard to accurately define who has autism and who doesn't. So inevitably, if the line is blurry, some doctors will miss the line. And it's just a good practice for any subjective profession for people to try to make the same decision as your colleagues. Just like jurisprudence works, when one judge makes one ruling in a specific case, that will set precedence for similar cases. Doctors try to do the same, if a few doctors are diagnosing mild cases of shyness as autism, then others will do the same. That's why you have these increasing surges in cases autism.
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