I was diagnosed with autism (specifically, Asperger's Syndrome) at a young age, and never really thought about it much until recently. I mean, I was aware that I was a bit different from most kids, but I was relatively okay with what I perceived to be a fairly innocuous and "lucky" disorder to get. My logic behind it was that, compared to conditions like muscular dystrophy or cerebral palsy, I was getting off easy on the "How much did life shit on you?" scale, and I tended not to dwell on it, instead focusing on the traits that I had gained from Asperger's (high overall intelligence and the like).
About a year or so ago, however, I began to notice news stories in the newspapers every now and then about how "common" autism might be. I read a good deal of reports about how autism might be "on the rise", or that the diagnosis itself is readdressed to establish a new definition for the disorder. On top of that, I have kept in touch with the special education teacher that presided at my old middle school, and she reports that more and more kids with a diagnosis of autism have been enrolled in her class every passing year.
To me, it seems that autism in general, and Asperger's in particular, is in a sense, "in vogue". It seems like a convenient catch-all diagnosis that medical personnel are tossing around toward anyone who exhibits even mild symptoms or attributes associated with the disorder. I'm not too comfortable with that; I don't feel that it's good practice to have this sort of "safety net" disorder to adequately label oddball kids. Of course, some people do possess autism, but recent times portray it as more and more common.
From a medical writer with the Associated Press:
A study in South Korea suggests about 1 in 38 children have traits of autism, higher than a previous U.S. estimate of 1 in 100.
By casting a wider net and looking closely at mainstream children, the researchers expected to find a higher rate of autism characteristics. But they were surprised at how high the rate was. They don't think South Korea has more children with autism than the United States, but instead that autism often goes undiagnosed in many nations. U.S. estimates are based on education and medical records, not the more time-consuming survey conducted in South Korea.
Two-thirds of the children with autism traits in the study were in the mainstream school population, hadn't been diagnosed before and weren't getting any special services. Many of those undiagnosed children likely have mild social impairments, rather than more severe autism.
"It doesn't mean all of a sudden there are more new children with (autism spectrum disorders)," said co-author Dr. Young-Shin Kim of the Yale Child Study Center. "They have been there all along, but were not counted in previous prevalence studies." It's not clear whether the children need special services or not, other experts said. "I'm sure some of these children probably could benefit from intervention, but I don't think we could make a statement that all would benefit from intervention," said Dr. Marshalyn Yeargin-Allsopp, chief of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's developmental disabilities branch.
The CDC wasn't involved in the new study, although another federal agency, the National Institute of Mental Health, provided some funding. The group, Autism Speaks, which advocates for more aggressive autism screening, also helped pay for the study. Autism Speaks had no role in the study's design.
The research, published Monday in the American Journal of Psychiatry, attempted to screen all 55,000 schoolchildren, ages 7 to 12, in a district of Goyang City, near Seoul. However, only about two-thirds of mainstream children participated. About 63 percent of their parents filled out a survey. The researchers acknowledged that parents of affected children might be more likely to fill out the survey.
The questionnaire used is a recognized screening tool for high-functioning autism such as Asperger's syndrome. It asks such questions as whether the child "stands out as different" in a number of ways, including lacking empathy, lacking best friends and being bullied by other children.
From there, some of the children who screened positive were tested further. Very few of the children actually completed the entire diagnosis process. But the researchers say they still were able to use the findings to estimate that about 2.6 percent of the population had some autism traits — compared to the U.S. estimate of 1 percent. The ambitious study took five years to complete. The U.S. government's approach is quicker and allows more ongoing results, Yeargin-Allsopp said.
"Community providers, researchers and others are interested in prevalence of autism on a frequent basis," Yeargin-Allsopp said. "This is not possible if you're doing a screening of an entire population" as was attempted by the South Korean researchers.
Other funders of the study were Children's Brain Research Foundation and the George Washington University Institute for Ethnographic Research.
This article surprised me, but also left me skeptical. 1 autistic out of 100 people as an estimate in the U.S. is already fairly difficult to believe, but 1 out of 38? To me, this statistic feels inflated, as if the definition for autism is too broad and is being applied to too many individuals.
In particular reference to Asperger's Syndrome, the World Health Organization (WHO) seems to have unusually loose requirements for diagnosis, which is odd to me. To qualify for a diagnosis of AS, the following must be met:
A. A lack of any clinically significant general delay in spoken or receptive language or cognitive development. Diagnosis requires that single words should have developed by two years of age or earlier and that communicative phrases be used by three years of age or earlier. Self-help skills, adaptive behaviour and curiosity about the environment during the first three years should be at a level consistent with normal intellectual development. However, motor milestones may be somewhat delayed and motor clumsiness is usual (although not a necessary diagnostic feature). Isolated special skills, often related to abnormal preoccupations, are common, but are not required for diagnosis.
B. Qualitative abnormalities in reciprocal social interaction (criteria as for autism).
C. An unusually intense circumscribed interest or restricted, repetitive, and stereotyped patterns of behaviour, interests and activities (criteria as for autism; however it would be less usual for these to include either motor mannerisms or preoccupations with part- objects or non-functional elements of play materials).
This set of criteria is quite vague and abstract. I am aware that mental conditions are often subject to nuance (being, as they are, entirely internal and not superficial), but with this set of conditions, I could probably diagnose about 50 of my friends. That's ridiculous. One of my friends is very interested in cars, and is a bit shy, so apparently that makes him eligible for AS. Where does one draw the line, anyway?
It's all very confusing.
So, TeamLiquid, what it comes down to is this: Do you feel that Asperger's Syndrome, along with other mental disorders such as ADD, are being "overdiagosed" to try and excessively label individuals that may not even have them? Is this rash of diagnosis for these conditions due to medical criteria that are simply too wide? Is this some widespread pharmaceutical scam to sell more prescription pills? *puts on tinfoil cap*
I made this thread partly because I'm genuinely interested in finding an answer to this, but I also want to know what you guys think. I could just go Google my way to victory, but I feel that input from you guys is far more varied and valuable.
EDIT: Thanks for the responses so far, guys. It's good to see varying perspectives on this. By all means, if you think I'm full of shit, let me know. I'm reading every post, and while I can't respond to all of them, I am definitely thinking about each one.
Also, Paperplane gives a more thorough set of criteria for diagnosis of autism; I suggest you read it.
On May 10 2011 22:34 Paperplane wrote: Here's the DSM criteria for diagnosis. It's a little bit more than just shy and very interested in cars.
A. A total of six (or more) items from (1), (2), and (3), with at least two from (1), and one each from (2) and (3)
(1) qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:
(a) marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction (b) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level (c) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest) (d) lack of social or emotional reciprocity
(2) qualitative impairments in communication as manifested by at least one of the following:
(a) delay in, or total lack of, the development of spoken language (not accompanied by an attempt to compensate through alternative modes of communication such as gesture or mime) (b) in individuals with adequate speech, marked impairment in the ability to initiate or sustain a conversation with others (c) stereotyped and repetitive use of language or idiosyncratic language (d) lack of varied, spontaneous make-believe play or social imitative play appropriate to developmental level
(3) restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:
(a) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus (b) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals (c) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g., hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements) (d) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects
B. Delays or abnormal functioning in at least one of the following areas, with onset prior to age 3 years: (1) social interaction, (2) language as used in social communication, or (3) symbolic or imaginative play
C. The disturbance is not better accounted for by Rett's Disorder or Childhood Disintegrative Disorder.
Yes, I think so. Its an easy way out for everyone involved--the kids, parents, and teachers all then have excuses for the rest of their lives. Its overused in some cases, especially since you sound like a very competent person indeed.
It seems highly plausible that these disorders are overdiagnosed, but my real question here is:
Do YOU currently display the symptoms of Asperger's Syndrome that was diagnosed when you were a kid or was it merely convenient given your behavior at that age?
On May 10 2011 09:30 stevarius wrote: It seems highly plausible that these disorders are overdiagnosed, but my real question here is:
Do YOU currently display the symptoms of Asperger's Syndrome that was diagnosed when you were a kid or was it merely convenient given your behavior at that age?
To be honest, I don't know. I certainly felt that I possessed those traits as an adolescent, but now, I find myself interacting and behaving pretty much the exact same way other people do it. However, the reason for that might be based on me being able to subconsciously hide my inabilities and adapt to the situation by mimicking what I perceive to be "normal" behavior.
On the other hand, on those occasions where I forget to take the pills prescribed to me, I feel the influence of my diagnosis far more. Whether this is from Asperger's itself, the placebo effect, the effects of a whole other disorder, or simple hyperactivity is unknown to me, and it would probably be a good idea for me to confirm this somehow.
To answer your question the best way I can, I feel that the diagnosis was convenient when I was young, but I honestly don't know if it still applies.
I think ADD is one of those disorders that is super excessively diagnosed. I go to a small, college-prep private school and to me, it seems that an unreasonably large proportion of our population gets extended time due to ADD, dyslexia, dysgraphia, and other cognitive disorders. I find it hard to believe that such a proportion is really true amongst the whole population.
On May 10 2011 09:31 bonifaceviii wrote: I'd say full-blown autism isn't overdiagnosed. It's just that the "spectrum" has been extended a bit too far.
As for the drug conspiracy, as far as I know there aren't any drugs prescribed for Asperger's?
The drug thing was a pretty lame joke. However, there are several medications to help suppress some symptoms of it, such as Concerta and Respidol. Maybe they're not used in every case, I'm not sure, but I do take those and another medicine.
Pretty much every mental disorder is characterized by a long list of somewhat vague symptoms that could apply to almost anyone. This is why your average joe should not try to diagnose a mental disorder, and yet here we are with unqualified doctors doing precisely that.
"Girl, Interrupted" is a pretty good book that kind of makes this point in a subtle way. Girl is relatively normal, but has some dysfunctions: A general lack of ambition, disinterest in the world around her, apathy, blunt social behavior. Ding, ding! Mental disorder, send her to the institution for crazy people.
I don't have any education on the subject, but just based off of reports such as these, that's what it sounds like. It must be hard to diagnose anything that not as simple as being physical or can tested with certainty. Where does a person stop being moderately different and start having a disorder?
Like, I look at the statistic 1/100, and I find that hard to believe. 1/30 is ridiculous. I can't even imagine something like that.
you state that you did seem to think you were different than other kids, what made you feel that one? how are you different?
I know very little on the subject, I have only met a couple of autistic kids while working for a chiropractor, but they were pretty bad(and saw wonders of what the chiro adjustments did) , and judging by how you write and communicate yourself on here you seem to be pretty normal nothing compared with those kids that I met.
did you feel you couldve been in normal classes instead of special ed in middle school or high school?
very interesting subject btw
edit: now remembering , I spoke with the Chiropractor couple of times about the subject, and he was very alarmed at the rate of how many more cases are seen today compared to even just 5 years ago. He has many theorys ranging from vaccines and the food we are ingesting
I was diagnosed as well with Asperger syndrome when i was younger. In relative terms I was one of the first of the kids diagnosed with it, 1993. In terms of medicine, i was on respidol for about 10 years, but i never liked how i felt on it. It made me feel less intelligent then i actually was, it did help with behavior problems i had, but i felt almost like i was floating sometimes, I don't mean like a high form drugs or anything, but..... man its hard to explain it really.
In terms of the 1 to 100 or something, i always hoped that was wrong because I never wanted anyone to go though school or growing up like i did. I defiantly feel like that is a higher estimate then it actually is, Given in a town if 75000 there were only like 25-30 kids with asperger syndrome
Edit: A couple people are asking what exactly are the symptoms of Asperger syndrome? It varies form person to person, but for me personnly, I had a very hard time being social with other kids growing up. I've always had problems with body language, even to this day and 'm 21 now. It has gotten better but there are plenty of times where i just miss signs your showing me, or not being able to tell whats going on. this made is very hard is school to making friends as i was constantly annoying people, so i was always an outsider growing up in school. I'm a very anti social person nowadays where i only have a few really good friends that i hang out with. I always been highly motivated in 1-2 subjects and absolute crap in others. I also have big problems with routine changes when i was younger. I'm better now with it, but it does annoy me sometimes.
I think ADD definitely is. When you go into the field of teaching, you find out that a ridiculous number of your kids need an IEP for... being energetic, off-the-wall, and occasionally bored.
I think it is as mild aspergers is roughly the equivalent of mild social anxiety. Sort of filling the trend of if the shoe might kind of maybe fit then we will tape it to your foot.
Its a spectrum, some people have it more than others There are key and specific defining characteristics of it and the more boxes you tick, the further along the spectrum you are Thats all there is to it really.
Having said that, society should be more accepting of people who are on that end of the autistic spectrum. It is very common that the further down you are, the more likely you are to be bullied, ostracised, and shunned by general society, especially as a young child. The further down you are, the slower your social and emotional development is going to be, and it affects your life adversely.
So no, it isn't just an "excuse" - that's just the way some people are. Some people find it difficult to socialise and empathise with how others feel. If more people could be understanding of that and be nice to each other regardless instead of using these people as easy targets, then there wouldn't be a problem in the first place
Some people on the high end of the autistic spectrum get better and develop socially, but slowly, in their own special, logical and reasoned way. Often they use their unique disposition to their advantage in life Some people never get exposed to their own functions or dysfunctions and thus never really get to do anything about it. Some just don't know how or what to do about it.
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So no, it is not just a joke problem that one can be ignored. In fact, it shouldn't be viewed as a problem in the first place As far as I care, anything that causes society to be more accepting and understanding of a wider variety of personalities, and not constantly demand that of the purist extrovert is a good path to follow.
edit: it also ruined the majority of my childhood. Nothing hurts more than people just hating you and not understanding why, or what you have done.
If the diagnose helps, let them have it. It's a personal thing, and you can't draw anything concise from that statistic. You don't know their situation, how the support system works for them in their location etc. Maybe some of them might be better off without it, but that's not really anything we can tell from reading newspapers and looking at statistics. I'd rather people have a wrong diagnosis and get the help they need, than them not getting one and suffer because of it.
It's easy to forget about the human factor when just looking at numbers, but that's the most important thing when discussing this subject. If you think they are overdiagnosing, challenge the science itself, though I guess that's hard to do unless you major in psychology or something.
On May 10 2011 09:44 mAKiTO wrote: you state that you did seem to think you were different than other kids, what made you feel that one? how are you different?
I know very little on the subject, I have only met a couple of autistic kids while working for a chiropractor, but they were pretty bad(and saw wonders of what the chiro adjustments did) , and judging by how you write and communicate yourself on here you seem to be pretty normal nothing compared with those kids that I met.
did you feel you couldve been in normal classes instead of special ed in middle school or high school?
very interesting subject btw
As a kid, I was far more introverted than everyone else. Pretty much all through grade school, I avoided social contact because I felt I didn't really need it; I was much more at ease just being by myself or with a couple of close friends, talking about relevant subjects, reading books, telling jokes, etc. I guess my social life in grade school was a drastically miniaturized version of your standard Joe Schmoe, in that I conversed normally with the few friends I had (about three or four), but far more often than not, I'd be playing on my DS, playing memory games, solving crossword puzzles, and all that. I did not react well to social stimuli from those I didn't know very well, so I tended to avoid them if at all possible. I was also a gigantic dick to people I disliked, and wasn't afraid to tell them that they were total sacks of shit. Mostly because I'm a blunt kind of person (I tell things like it is, and I despise euphemisms), but that sort of attitude led to other people describing me as strange.
As for normal classes, I definitely feel that I could be enrolled in / excel in them. It wasn't my choice to be able to do that, though, because at least in the US, children diagnosed with any sort of mental disorder that makes them eligible for special education are automatically assigned an IEP (individual education program). The IEP is basically law, and as a child, you don't get to argue with it. At least in my case, I had no say in what went in it, and it was basically my mother and several special education teachers that decided my curriculum. Sure, I was allowed at those meetings and was supposedly given a say, but I don't think any of my feedback was really taken into consideration; many of the entries I openly rejected were included anyway, while many suggestions I gave were not included.
Is there such a thing as people that are appropriately described as aspies? Yes, absolutely.
How many are there? Boring and stupid question IMO. It's just statistics and nobody here can have any input of value. (I would presume)
Is X number inflated for convenience? Now that's a really, really stupid question. It's a statement about the motivations of the people making the statistics or the people making the diagnoses. Impossible to discuss this rationally.
On May 10 2011 09:51 Myrtroll wrote: If the diagnose helps, let them have it. It's a personal thing, and you can't draw anything concise from that statistic. You don't know their situation, how the support system works for them in their location etc. Maybe some of them might be better off without it, but that's not really anything we can tell from reading newspapers and looking at statistics. I'd rather people have a wrong diagnosis and get the help they need, than them not getting one and suffer because of it.
It's easy to forget about the human factor when just looking at numbers, but that's the most important thing when discussing this subject. If you think they are overdiagnosing, challenge the science itself, though I guess that's hard to do unless you major in psychology or something.
Yes, but who's to say that they really need it? Like DarkPlasmaBall said, so many kids get IEPs nowadays for pretty fucking inane things. Who's to say that these diagnoses are helping anyone? Could it be that they're just band-aids for lack of a better description?
@DarkPlasmaBall Naturally when people are forced to sit for many hours, kids who eat so much sugar and consume so much caffeine are naturally inclined to be stir-crazy. I'm pretty ADHD though, when I get excited it's hard to stop me spewing a torrent of words from my mouth straight up from what I'm thinking.
Autism, on the other hand, is not always a convenient excuse. I've taught kids with true Autism, they usually create their own world, and its extremely hard to pull them out of it. No, it's nothing like daydreaming, one girl with Autism "killed her mother" and tried to choke herself because she was fighting her "mother" (in her storyline her mother argued and was cruel to her).] Nobody at the school knows how much of it is true of course, it's hard to judge a person unless you really really know them.
Mild Autism may or may not be sometimes mis-diagnosed, it's a difficult field of study, and fascinating in it's own right.
On May 10 2011 09:54 Fyodor wrote: Is X number inflated for convenience? Now that's a really, really stupid question. It's a statement about the motivations of the people making the statistics or the people making the diagnoses. Impossible to discuss this rationally.
Of course, I'm not suggesting that the statistics are artificially inflated. What I was trying to say was more along the lines of "Are excessively broad guidelines resulting in a significant degree more of diagnoses than there are cases?"
I was first diagnosed with ADHD, then they decided that it was a mis-diagnosis and then was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome (in my teens).
It seemed pretty obvious through my teen years that there wasn't something quite normal; I looked pretty normal just looking at me (well, except that I never wore what was in fashion) but once I opened my mouth you could tell that I was sometimes socially inept when talking to people of my own age. Sometimes I'd act far more mature than my age (so I conversed well with adults) and other times puerile.
It's considerably better now, I never took prescription drugs for it and only had therapy for less than a year, but just going through life with the knowledge that I had that allowed me to kind of "copy" other people's behaviour so that now (college age) I usually act in a "normal" way (though I'm still a bit weird, but probably not more than most people on tl.net forums).
idk, I would probably be diagnosed with it because it is convenient, but I'm just I'm not autistic as long as I want. Its funny because I know a lot of people who I can chat an be happy with, but I'm in an ambient where everyone seems to be the exact opposite of myself, so I'd be a "convenient" autistic. But should I put someone from the ambient I live on, on the ambient I wished to live on, this guy would be the 'convenient' autistic.
On the other hand, my brother suffered HARD due to ADD/Dyslexia, and because teachers wouldn't believe on it(even though he was stuffing himself in Ritalin), he repeated a year in school and had several problems doing tests - and now he goes to a private university because he couldn't do the public university test due to lack of school basis, even though he is even more intelligent than half people there.
Yes, these things are being overdiagnosed specially because they are being diagnosed wrong. People with actual ADD/Dyslexia have a defective brain connection which is fixed by Ritalin. Autistic people aswell. I don't know where/how is this connection, but I know it is like this. You have to go to a neurologist to actually diagnose this kinda of problem, not just a psychiatric.
I didn't read the whole post, but from what i did read as I skimmed i must say that I do indeed think that the definition is far too broad just like ADD which i was said to have when in reality i know that is not my issue I just choose not to pay attention for long times (mostly in school) but in sc2 I can focus and play 2 hour long TvTs and not break my focus once I feel that atm the medical field still is quite clueless when it comes to the human mind and so mental conditions ADD, aspergers and the like are all a little over diagnosed or just have broad definitions that when broken down simply say "is the patient human? if yes- they have condition X , if no....lolwut"
Whats you're special power? Just curious. I'm only aware of 1 person I know with autism and she's kinda kept 'a secret' if you will. Home schooled, isn't allowed out much. I guess severity is the case in a lot of this. Sounds like yours isn't severe at all.
On May 10 2011 09:48 puckstop101 wrote: I was diagnosed as well with Asperger syndrome when i was younger. In relative terms I was one of the first of the kids diagnosed with it, 1993. In terms of medicine, i was on respidol for about 10 years, but i never liked how i felt on it. It made me feel less intelligent then i actually was, it did help with behavior problems i had, but i felt almost like i was floating sometimes, I don't mean like a high form drugs or anything, but..... man its hard to explain it really.
In terms of the 1 to 100 or something, i always hoped that was wrong because I never wanted anyone to go though school or growing up like i did. I defiantly feel like that is a higher estimate then it actually is, Given in a town if 75000 there were only like 25-30 kids with asperger syndrome
Edit: A couple people are asking what exactly are the symptoms of Asperger syndrome? It varies form person to person, but for me personnly, I had a very hard time being social with other kids growing up. I've always had problems with body language, even to this day and 'm 21 now. It has gotten better but there are plenty of times where i just miss signs your showing me, or not being able to tell whats going on. this made is very hard is school to making friends as i was constantly annoying people, so i was always an outsider growing up in school. I'm a very anti social person nowadays where i only have a few really good friends that i hang out with. I always been highly motivated in 1-2 subjects and absolute crap in others. I also have big problems with routine changes when i was younger. I'm better now with it, but it does annoy me sometimes.
Well the mild diagnosis of aspergers fits almost any kid who is a nerd in high school tbh. It is sort of falling into the category of add on that side. It's not like there is a rise in people with the more serious symptoms just a rise in diagnosis on the light side in order to get money for research and perscriptions and such. The unfortunate side of mental health.
1 autistic out of 100 people as an estimate in the U.S. is already fairly difficult to believe, but 1 out of 38? To me, this statistic feels inflated, as if the definition for autism is too broad and is being applied to too many individuals.
This paragraph baffles me. You have no idea what criterion they're using. They may be including the most mild on the AS in these statistics. Many diagnosed with ASD can go undetected in society, and there will be many undiagnosed. I don't see why you hvae to right to criticize the criterion they're using when you have no idea what that criterion is and how robustly it's being applied. Your disbelief is without any basis whatsoever at this point in time.
On May 10 2011 10:00 Rickilicious wrote: Whats you're special power? Just curious. I'm only aware of 1 person I know with autism and she's kinda kept 'a secret' if you will. Home schooled, isn't allowed out much. I guess severity is the case in a lot of this. Sounds like yours isn't severe at all.
Special power? You might be referring to those "autistic savants" who have some extraordinary ability in some area, like constructing masterful LEGO castles or amazing woodwork.
I think ADD and autism (among others) are just "extremes" on a scale. Some people are on the "normal" side of the scale, some people are on the "extreme" side of the scale, most of us are somewhere inbetween.
The hard thing is to know where to draw the line.
(just something I've thought about myself, haven't done any research on this at all)
As a kid, I was far more introverted than everyone else. Pretty much all through grade school, I avoided social contact because I felt I didn't really need it; I was much more at ease just being by myself or with a couple of close friends, talking about relevant subjects, reading books, telling jokes, etc. I guess my social life in grade school was a drastically miniaturized version of your standard Joe Schmoe, in that I conversed normally with the few friends I had (about three or four), but far more often than not, I'd be playing on my DS, playing memory games, solving crossword puzzles, and all that. I did not react well to social stimuli from those I didn't know very well, so I tended to avoid them if at all possible. I was also a gigantic dick to people I disliked, and wasn't afraid to tell them that they were total sacks of shit. Mostly because I'm a blunt kind of person (I tell things like it is, and I despise euphemisms), but that sort of attitude led to other people describing me as strange.
As for normal classes, I definitely feel that I could be enrolled in / excel in them. It wasn't my choice to be able to do that, though, because at least in the US, children diagnosed with any sort of mental disorder that makes them eligible for special education are automatically assigned an IEP (individual education program). The IEP is basically law, and as a child, you don't get to argue with it. At least in my case, I had no say in what went in it, and it was basically my mother and several special education teachers that decided my curriculum. Sure, I was allowed at those meetings and was supposedly given a say, but I don't think any of my feedback was really taken into consideration; many of the entries I openly rejected were included anyway, while many suggestions I gave were not included.
I was the same way man, Hell i never even saw my IEP until grade 9, when i found out my parents and teachers had it in grade 1. I was pretty upset that day, and ended up just blowing off steam and yelling at anyone that even came close to me that day. I never had a meeting about the IEP until grade 9, and never really had any say in it when i was younger. Everyone seemed to believe they knew better then I because i was only a kid, even tho I was the one living through it
1 autistic out of 100 people as an estimate in the U.S. is already fairly difficult to believe, but 1 out of 38? To me, this statistic feels inflated, as if the definition for autism is too broad and is being applied to too many individuals.
This paragraph baffles me. You have no idea what criterion they're using. They may be including the most mild on the AS in these statistics. Many diagnosed with ASD can go undetected in society, and there will be many undetected. I don't see why you hvae to right to criticise the criteron they're using when you have no idea what that criteron is and how robustly it's being applied. Your disbelief is without any basis whatsoever at this point in time.
You're right, I don't have any real basis. I just feel that, even if they are including absolutely everyone who might fit onto the spectrum, that number is still quite vast. I'd love to figure out how they got that number, but that's not something I'm privy to at the moment, and for now, my opinion is that 1 in 38 is a bit farfetched.
Then again, maybe I'm full of crap and it really is that common. I don't know, which is why I made this thread.
Aspergers and autism is remarkably easy to spot as long as you understand how it works and what to look for
Most if not all people have some kind of autistic traits, but some people really REALLY have it. The only way to interact with them is to have a genuine understanding of what is going on in their brain, and if you can appreciate this, then all of a sudden what they say and do makes sense, but before that it can be a complete mystery.
Once meeting someone with a fairly heavy form of aspergers (he literally didn't talk to anyone, and whenever he said anything it would basically be a nonsensical statement that made no sense to anyone else) - i got the comment that "thats the first meaningful conversation i've seen anyone have with him in ages" (obviously an exaggeration) It wasn't really difficult, you just had to appreciate the way he thinks and what that means. He had little to no concept of empathising with other peoples emotions and feelings and he said things in a seemingly odd, random order, rambling on about a particular topic in a very nonsensical fashion. Simply by directing his ramble into a percieved point he was trying to make and providing obvious cues as to particular points of interest on a topic which culminate on that point, it would seem as if he was able to talk very intelligently and seamlessly on a topic of common interest
On May 10 2011 10:04 Wonderballs wrote: Yes; my personal reasoning behind the "over-diagnosis" is to keep pharmacists and doctors making cash. Everything is motivated by money, everything.
I'll assume that this is a jab at my "pharmaceutical conspiracy" remark. That was a joke, and from the looks of it, a pretty bad one. It wasn't really meant to be taken seriously.
If this is your actual perspective on the matter, then we'd better put on those tinfoil caps. :D
On May 10 2011 09:56 Reaper9 wrote: @DarkPlasmaBall Naturally when people are forced to sit for many hours, kids who eat so much sugar and consume so much caffeine are naturally inclined to be stir-crazy. I'm pretty ADHD though, when I get excited it's hard to stop me spewing a torrent of words from my mouth straight up from what I'm thinking.
Autism, on the other hand, is not always a convenient excuse. I've taught kids with true Autism, they usually create their own world, and its extremely hard to pull them out of it. No, it's nothing like daydreaming, one girl with Autism "killed her mother" and tried to choke herself because she was fighting her "mother" (in her storyline her mother argued and was cruel to her).] Nobody at the school knows how much of it is true of course, it's hard to judge a person unless you really really know them.
Mild Autism may or may not be sometimes mis-diagnosed, it's a difficult field of study, and fascinating in it's own right.
I completely agree with you. From my experiences in teaching students with learning disabilities, the vast majority of those students need the extra help. The autistic children I've worked with, for example, clearly need special modifications, as do most other students. I have yet to see autism diagnosed unnecessarily in a classroom environment.
As far as ADD and ADHD go, however, I'd say it's split 50/50 between students who actually have problems with these disorders, and students who really display no signs other than acting like every other kid (even when they're not on medication). A teacher who has good classroom management skills (smart and consistent rules and consequences) can control a class of these students. I fear that some doctors won't mind giving an easy diagnosis of this if they can make some money, and parents are eager to get their children any special treatment they possibly can when it comes to their education.
But with the exception of ADD/ ADHD, I haven't seen any other disorders often be misdiagnosed (in my humble, non-medical, teacher-based opinion).
On May 10 2011 10:04 Wonderballs wrote: Yes; my personal reasoning behind the "over-diagnosis" is to keep pharmacists and doctors making cash. Everything is motivated by money, everything.
To be honest, money makes this world go around son. Look at almost all business conducted today, and give any profitable career that isn't focused on the money.
On May 10 2011 09:39 TALegion wrote:1/100, and I find that hard to believe. 1/30 is ridiculous.
Compared to what exactly? Some years ago we weren't even aware that it existed yet that didn't stop people living and coping with it.
23 years ago my brother was considered a retard by his teachers... turns out later that he has dyslexia and only couldn't tell the difference of some letters. The fear of being called stupid was the real problem.
On May 10 2011 09:51 BrTarolg wrote: Its a spectrum, some people have it more than others There are key and specific defining characteristics of it and the more boxes you tick, the further along the spectrum you are Thats all there is to it really.
Having said that, society should be more accepting of people who are on that end of the autistic spectrum. It is very common that the further down you are, the more likely you are to be bullied, ostracised, and shunned by general society, especially as a young child. The further down you are, the slower your social and emotional development is going to be, and it affects your life adversely.
So no, it isn't just an "excuse" - that's just the way some people are. Some people find it difficult to socialise and empathise with how others feel. If more people could be understanding of that and be nice to each other regardless instead of using these people as easy targets, then there wouldn't be a problem in the first place
Some people on the high end of the autistic spectrum get better and develop socially, but slowly, in their own special, logical and reasoned way. Often they use their unique disposition to their advantage in life Some people never get exposed to their own functions or dysfunctions and thus never really get to do anything about it. Some just don't know how or what to do about it.
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So no, it is not just a joke problem that one can be ignored. In fact, it shouldn't be viewed as a problem in the first place As far as I care, anything that causes society to be more accepting and understanding of a wider variety of personalities, and not constantly demand that of the purist extrovert is a good path to follow.
edit: it also ruined the majority of my childhood. Nothing hurts more than people just hating you and not understanding why, or what you have done.
Excellent post man! I should let you do the talking. ^^
On May 10 2011 10:12 Tjubatjubs wrote: A bit of topic perhaps but Ken Robinson has a brilliant talk about this that might be of interest as a side note.
If possible, do you think you could provide a link? That sounds like something I'd like to listen to.
I was diagnosed with ADD when i was like 8, and i started taking Ritalin which hugely improved my life quality, i stopped fighting all the time i actually payed attention in class and i got some work done.
But it has its downsides, like massive depressions, the fact that it works like speed on your body and you never want to eat, and the fact that you become a soulless emotionless machine.
Other then that it was really helpful in my youth, now im at an age where i have mostly outgrown it, at least the worst parts, i still rage like nobodies business and occasionally that gets me into quite a lot of trouble. But i deal with it, its better to feel something then not to feel at all is my take on it.
I do not have a lot of experience with Autism / aspregers but i had a friend when i was younger who was a little different and finally was diagnosed with aspergers, and it explained quite a lot, and it really helped him in school and in general life, so i think as long as the diagnose is actually real and not just an excuse for a overly energetic child or trying to cover up for some other diagnose/illness i dont see anything bad by people getting help with their disadvantages.
ADHD is incredibly vague and many psychatrists outside of America will never ever diagnosis it. Aspergers less so, it has quite a few clear patterns, while it may be abused there is a very clear set of patterns of behavior to look for.
Bipolar on the other hand is really fucking hard to missdiagnose if you've ever known some one of that's suffered from it, or have it yourself. Mania is a pretty damn unique thing, and anyone who's ever experienced or seen someone in it knows what it looks like, and any psych misdiagnosing it is either abusive or retarded.
On May 10 2011 09:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I think ADD definitely is. When you go into the field of teaching, you find out that a ridiculous number of your kids need an IEP for... being energetic, off-the-wall, and occasionally bored.
those symptoms are merely personality traits and I agree with you. Levels of energy are also directly related to living conditions. I also feel ADHD and ADD are over diagnosed, much like autism. With ADD you can always go the "perscription drug conspiracy" but with autism it's different. I feel that people, and parents especially, would rather have a doctor stick a name on a potential symptom, write a prescriptio and not actually deal with the problem. It's easier that way.
I don't know much about autism, but looking at the symptoms could it be that very mild forms of autism are "normal". Could it sometimes even be a beneficial trait in the context of the latest human evolution?
I would be very careful to give medication against something we don't even fully understand, especially in cases where the disadvantages aren't even severe. Who is "normal" anyway?
I tried to do a little bit of research, but I'm still confused on this issue.
So autism does not have any underlying physiological source? Like we can't identify something specifically wrong with the brain by which we could diagnosis people from? So our diagnosis comes purely from observed characteristics of the person?
If this is the case, I do not understand on what basis I could make a claim that it is over diagnosed. If people share the characteristics of it why would it make a difference how many there are?
On May 10 2011 10:04 Wonderballs wrote: Yes; my personal reasoning behind the "over-diagnosis" is to keep pharmacists and doctors making cash. Everything is motivated by money, everything.
I'll assume that this is a jab at my "pharmaceutical conspiracy" remark. That was a joke, and from the looks of it, a pretty bad one. It wasn't really meant to be taken seriously.
If this is your actual perspective on the matter, then we'd better put on those tinfoil caps. :D
Not that i think its about the cash
I think it has more to do with the fact that young children are getting prescribed really powerful drugs from a young age that they POSSIBLY dont need. These drugs can affect chemistry in the brain and possibly cause more problems?
I mean; they are kids ! obviously they dont want to pay attention to homework and such(very basic diagnosis of add, im no doc so dont flame me for being wrong which i probably am). It may seem like they have a disorder but they probably Dont.
im not saying im right but its something to think about.
This post sums up what my opinion on over-diagnosed disorders is.
On May 10 2011 09:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I think ADD definitely is. When you go into the field of teaching, you find out that a ridiculous number of your kids need an IEP for... being energetic, off-the-wall, and occasionally bored.
and this gentleman response to plasmaball
those symptoms are merely personality traits and I agree with you. Levels of energy are also directly related to living conditions. I also feel ADHD and ADD are over diagnosed, much like autism. With ADD you can always go the "perscription drug conspiracy" but with autism it's different. I feel that people, and parents especially, would rather have a doctor stick a name on a potential symptom, write a prescriptio and not actually deal with the problem. It's easier that way.
When I was younger I had ADD and between ages 10-14 I was in a special class at my school.
We we're 7 kids in this class and even though I don't know the diagnosis of the others most we're socially inept and/or had learning disorders (atleast one girl was also mentally challenged).
And honestly that was the worst four years of my life as I basically didn't have any friends as I considered everyone else "weird" (I was young) and all my learning was done being with a teacher alone as I was keeping up with the normal education pace.
But that's typical generic treatment of a letter diagnosis which is why I feel you need to be very careful with them and tailor especially schools treatment of kids with them alot more sensitively to individual needs.
But thats costly and its so easy for schools to just choose a more convenient way like this.
On May 10 2011 10:17 Befree wrote: I tried to do a little bit of research, but I'm still confused on this issue.
So autism does not have any underlying physiological source? Like we can't identify something specifically wrong with the brain by which we could diagnosis people from? So our diagnosis comes purely from observed characteristics of the person?
If this is the case, I do not understand on what basis I could make a claim that it is over diagnosed. If people share the characteristics of it why would it make a difference how many there are?
My train of thought was basically this: Currently, it seems to me that autism / ADD / ADHD / etc. are being used to "conveniently" diagnose people who may not have the disorder in the first place. For example, say little Timmy is a pretty hyper kid. He is always full of energy, and can't seem to sit still during class. From some people I've talked to about this, it's fairly likely that Timmy could be diagnosed with ADHD or something. I feel that the possibility of "He's a hyper kid" and similar things are being cast aside in favor of a medical diagnosis that may not be accurate, but certainly works as an excuse.
TBH I think 80% of the people labeled with ADHD are just stupid, hyper, or lazy and don't actually have anything mentally wrong with them. My best friend's mom was worried about him for sometime when he was in middle school and she took him to a doctor and he got diagnosed with ADHD and was given medicine for it. Eventually we got around to talking about it and he kinda admitted that he was just lazy and just didn't choose to do his homework or w/e was needed. He never had an attention problem he just wasn't motivated I guess.
I guess my thought process goes along the same route for Autism, the borderline people, not the "savants" and the noticeably mentally handicapped ones.
I think it's just another excuse something people can blame things on and not themselves to escape responsibilities.
Side note. I took a free test at a ADHD awareness stand at a festival once and I had 5/6 of the symptons they tested for. I always joke about it sometimes as my excuse for not doing things sometimes because I clearly don't have it or it's never effected me. Straight A/Bs through all my school and usually the hardest worker when compared to my co-workers. I guess ADHD is a good thing right?
on a personal level, i do feel that AD/HD is over diagnosed and in fact to my detriment.
as someone that has suffered from the disorder at an early age, my parents have grown ever weary of its over diagnosis and abuse of the medication prescribed for the diagnosis. unfortunately, because of people abusing the medication and my mom's paranoia, i have been ready to crawl out of my own skin and personally i think its a shame someone who has it should be suffering at the expense of those out there that are wrongfully diagnosed.
as for the autism spectrum disorders, i dont think its quite as severe. the symptoms (not so much for aspergers but definitely for the lower functioning end of the spectrum) are quite defined and its hard to be not classified/wrongfully classified as most of these children are non-verbal.
as the spectrum grows and expands, however I think that we will start to see more children diagnosed with a higher functioning disorder such as aspergers when in fact they are not actually affected with it.
On May 10 2011 10:13 Hut wrote: I was diagnosed with ADD when i was like 8, and i started taking Ritalin which hugely improved my life quality, i stopped fighting all the time i actually payed attention in class and i got some work done.
But it has its downsides, like massive depressions, the fact that it works like speed on your body and you never want to eat, and the fact that you become a soulless emotionless machine.
I remember Ritalin helping as well but eventually I rebeled against it because I was becoming very aware of what an extreme personality change that medicine was having on me.
On May 10 2011 09:31 bonifaceviii wrote: I'd say full-blown autism isn't overdiagnosed. It's just that the "spectrum" has been extended a bit too far.
As for the drug conspiracy, as far as I know there aren't any drugs prescribed for Asperger's?
I'd have to agree with this. I have a cousin who has full-blown autism and quite clearly needs assistance for many things for the rest of her life, which is a completely different situation than many other people who seem to be diagnosed with some form of autism. I do feel too like they are broadening the scope of it a bit too far and labeling even minor symptoms that really shouldn't be much of a problem.
On May 10 2011 10:19 Popss wrote: When I was younger I had ADD and between ages 10-14 I was in a special class at my school.
We we're 7 kids in this class and even though I don't know the diagnosis of the others most we're socially inept and/or had learning disorders (atleast one girl was also mentally challenged).
And honestly that was the worst four years of my life as I basically didn't have any friends as I considered everyone else "weird" (I was young) and all my learning was done being with a teacher alone as I was keeping up with the normal education pace.
But that's typical generic treatment of a letter diagnosis which is why I feel you need to be very careful with them and tailor especially schools treatment of kids with them alot more sensitively to individual needs.
But thats costly and its so easy for schools to just choose a more convenient way like this.
For what it's worth, American schools have taken a huge push towards moving students with learning disabilities into the "least restrictive environment".
This means that they won't be taken out of a regular classroom (and put into a private, special classroom) if they don't have to. Instead, they'll be put in regular courses with other students who don't need IEPs or modifications... these types of classrooms that include students with special diagnoses are called Inclusion Classrooms.
There are pros and cons of inclusive teaching that I won't go into right now (since it could derail the thread), but it may not cause as much ostracism for those with learning disabilities. Also, keep in mind that IEPs are private and personal, and teachers have to walk on eggshells so they don't embarrass students with problems.
its both imo. We've gotten better at diagnosing and more aware of things like autism. But there defintely is too much fear of not being "normal" and autism and such disability seems to be the common scapegoat.
On May 10 2011 10:13 Hut wrote: I was diagnosed with ADD when i was like 8, and i started taking Ritalin which hugely improved my life quality, i stopped fighting all the time i actually payed attention in class and i got some work done.
But it has its downsides, like massive depressions, the fact that it works like speed on your body and you never want to eat, and the fact that you become a soulless emotionless machine.
I remember Ritalin helping as well but eventually I rebeled against it because I was becoming very aware of what an extreme personality change that medicine was having on me.
Indeed, i felt like i was not myself whenever i was on the medicine, the changes it does to a persons personality is rather drastic at times.
On May 10 2011 09:31 bonifaceviii wrote: I'd say full-blown autism isn't overdiagnosed. It's just that the "spectrum" has been extended a bit too far.
As for the drug conspiracy, as far as I know there aren't any drugs prescribed for Asperger's?
I'd have to agree with this. I have a cousin who has full-blown autism and quite clearly needs assistance for many things for the rest of her life, which is a completely different situation than many other people who seem to be diagnosed with some form of autism. I do feel too like they are broadening the scope of it a bit too far and labeling even minor symptoms that really shouldn't be much of a problem.
The lower-end of the spectrum almost seems to currently be a hypochondriacs dream...
"Well I really don't like talking to people..." "Aspergers? Therapy? Only 50 bajillion dollars a week? OK!!!"
We seem to be reaching a point where each personality type can be deemed as a form of autism. It's definitely my personal opinion, but I think there is only so far you can go with diagnosing mental disorders and we are beginning to pass that point.
So tell me if I understand this correctly, there's a spectrum of social behaviors between autistic and normal and recently more and more of the medical field has decided to draw their dividing line a bit closer to the norm? I don't understand the problem here, would you rather have them ignore the mild cases and only focus on severe ones? It sounds like the problem isn't the diagnoses but rather the processes by which the treat/deal with people diagnosed
On May 10 2011 09:44 mAKiTO wrote: you state that you did seem to think you were different than other kids, what made you feel that one? how are you different?
I know very little on the subject, I have only met a couple of autistic kids while working for a chiropractor, but they were pretty bad(and saw wonders of what the chiro adjustments did) , and judging by how you write and communicate yourself on here you seem to be pretty normal nothing compared with those kids that I met.
did you feel you couldve been in normal classes instead of special ed in middle school or high school?
very interesting subject btw
As a kid, I was far more introverted than everyone else. Pretty much all through grade school, I avoided social contact because I felt I didn't really need it; I was much more at ease just being by myself or with a couple of close friends, talking about relevant subjects, reading books, telling jokes, etc. I guess my social life in grade school was a drastically miniaturized version of your standard Joe Schmoe, in that I conversed normally with the few friends I had (about three or four), but far more often than not, I'd be playing on my DS, playing memory games, solving crossword puzzles, and all that. I did not react well to social stimuli from those I didn't know very well, so I tended to avoid them if at all possible. I was also a gigantic dick to people I disliked, and wasn't afraid to tell them that they were total sacks of shit. Mostly because I'm a blunt kind of person (I tell things like it is, and I despise euphemisms), but that sort of attitude led to other people describing me as strange.
Cool, I just diagnosed myself as autistic :D
But yea, like others said. Medicine is not an exact science. It's really hard to accurately define who has autism and who doesn't. So inevitably, if the line is blurry, some doctors will miss the line. And it's just a good practice for any subjective profession for people to try to make the same decision as your colleagues. Just like jurisprudence works, when one judge makes one ruling in a specific case, that will set precedence for similar cases. Doctors try to do the same, if a few doctors are diagnosing mild cases of shyness as autism, then others will do the same. That's why you have these increasing surges in cases autism.
On May 10 2011 10:34 n.DieJokes wrote: So tell me if I understand this correctly, there's a spectrum of social behaviors between autistic and normal and recently more and more of the medical field has decided to draw their dividing line a bit closer to the norm? I don't understand the problem here, would you rather have them ignore the mild cases and only focus on severe ones? It sounds like the problem isn't the diagnoses but rather the processes by which the treat/deal with people diagnosed
I'm not saying to ignore it, but that we're getting to the point where any deviation from the norm automatically means you have a mental problem of some sort. In part it's because I believe there is no such thing as normal, no two people are alike and this representation of normal i seemingly dated...
Everyone has problems, but when it gets to the point where you're being diagnosed with such a "mild case" of any disorder when it doesn't actively affect your life its a whole other ball game. So while those who need help get it, the ones who don't need help are being convinced they do and their wallet subsequently get cleaned out.
I think it's definitely an overdiagnosis issue, and I have no idea why. I know someone who's been ADD, ADHD, and diagnosed with AS. Obviously, the various diagnoses superceded eachother throughout his life, rather than them saying he had all three.
I think people are trying too hard to label something they don't understand, more than anything, because honestly, he's perfectly high functioning, and just has shit social skills. Not to say the conditions don't legitimately exist, but I don't consider being smart and not having social skills to be a combination that has anything to do with a need to diagnose someone with anything.
I was homeschooled until High School, grew up in the middle of nowhere, knew only a few kids my own age from the church I was subjected to, and got into gaming and computers young. Growing up that way steered me clear of having any major predilection towards socialization later, and it would have been easy to put those traits together to diagnose me with Aspberger's under the OP's traits listed. However, for me, it wasn't medical, it was purely lack of practice.
My case is fairly clear, but now let's try muddying the waters a little and see if we can't find a similar sort of issue? The people diagnosed with AS are frequently in a high intelligence percentile for their age group, especially when young. Frequently the "geeks" will be slightly ostracized by their peers, and have a slightly different set of interests, owing perhaps to a more developed imagination. Gaming, books, and science as hobbies aren't a symptom, rather, they're the root, as they increase the distance between the smarter children and their peers, as they have little or no common ground. As the cliques develop, the "different" ones, or rather, the smarter minority, are seen as having something wrong with them by those who don't understand, and they seek to diagnose, rather than attempt to elevate the other children to the same level.
Again, I'm sure there are legitimate cases, but this is my take on the large number that I feel are misdiagnosed.
i do agree. i sometimes feel I like i fit into that category. I'm not sure if I have AS or just SAD all my life. i do pass all the AS tests but I havent gotten a diagnosis(possibly getting one this month).
No offence, but you're all criticizing over diagnosis, yet surprisingly enough you or a close relative ALL have ADD or a similar form of autism, and for your own cases, of course, its legit.
Take 20 cases from autism posters have brought up on this thread, compare it to the 2k views the thread has, boom 1/100 have autism on TL.
You know what the problem is ? People trying to act different, parents wanting their children to be weird geniuses, kids in their early ages approaching life from different angles etc. Taking a mild and early social misbehaviour for autism is ridiculous, yet a lot of people say they had it, and the difficult childhood that comes with it.
If what the OP describes is serious Aspergers, intelligent, very few friends, "bad reactions to social stimuli" honestly the whole thing seems overrated, half the kids in school are like that, the evolution from shyness to getting teased to hating everyone is exactly the same.
The OP sounds so proud of being "one of the first diagnoses", which I think is exactly the problem.
What I hate about autism is that it really stands out as a cry for difference, whether its the parents or the kids without really knowing it, or even knowing it could be possible. Mix in a bit of pharmaceutical lobbying, and half the kids in the US will have autism by 2020.
Anyway, met a few autistic kids once a few years back, they did seem disconnected from my world, and I do take the matter quite seriously, however this thread made me giggle, just sums up as "anti social kids getting a medical term and their own special treatment".
At least for ADD the notion that the disorder is being misdiagnosed is hurtful for people with ADD. It's the idea that it has to do with bad parenting or some other bogus thing, or that "natural" cures or stronger will power are the answer. The only cure for ADD that's been shown to work is medication and guidance.
I agree with most of the other replys that a lot of diseases and disorders are over diagnosed. Additionally I think the public response to a lot of them is a bit out of line. I remember a few years ago watching a program about ADD/ADHD diagnosis and there was specifically one story that kind of sealed the deal. There was a school that was giving extra tutoring/educational oppurtunities to the students that had been diagnosed and so a lot of the parents were "pressuring" their doctors to diagnose their kids with learning disabilities to get access to these programs. A woman was quoted (and now im paraphrasing) that "if my child does not have a learning disability, he is at a disadvantage"
Now I'm not trying to propose a solution but this is similar to SC2 tournaments that are bronze-plat only and then have some desirable prize. There will ALWAYS be someone who games the system and tanks their rank in order to have an advantage, just like if people are told "if your kid as a disability, we will give him extra time on tests, and a special tutor to help".
I think what it comes down to is that humans will do mostly anything to get ahead of their peers. I'm not condemning it, but dear lord leave the kids out of it.
On May 10 2011 11:17 Nqsty wrote: This thread itself reaks of ridicule.
No offence, but you're all criticizing over diagnosis, yet surprisingly enough you or a close relative ALL have ADD or a similar form of autism, and for your own cases, of course, its legit.
Take 20 cases from autism posters have brought up on this thread, compare it to the 2k views the thread has, boom 1/100 have autism on TL.
You know what the problem is ? People trying to act different, parents wanting their children to be weird geniuses, kids in their early ages approaching life from different angles etc. Taking a mild and early social misbehaviour for autism is ridiculous, yet a lot of people say they had it, and the difficult childhood that comes with it.
If what the OP describes is serious Aspergers, intelligent, very few friends, "bad reactions to social stimuli" honestly the whole thing seems overrated, half the kids in school are like that, the evolution from shyness to getting teased to hating everyone is exactly the same.
The OP sounds so proud of being "one of the first diagnoses", which I think is exactly the problem.
What I hate about autism is that it really stands out as a cry for difference, whether its the parents or the kids without really knowing it, or even knowing it could be possible. Mix in a bit of pharmaceutical lobbying, and half the kids in the US will have autism by 2020.
Anyway, met a few autistic kids once a few years back, they did seem disconnected from my world, and I do take the matter quite seriously, however this thread made me giggle, just sums up as "anti social kids getting a medical term and their own special treatment".
I'll say it again:
There exists no medical treatment for Asperger's Syndrome. You likely won't get any sort of prescription unless to manage a related symptom.
It's also ridiculous to dismiss AS as a cry for difference because that's precisely how you define it. It's an abnormality. Saying to people that you identify yourself as having AS is communicating your abnormality. By virtue of being a word with a certain definition, you can't do otherwise but communicate an abnormality when you use that word. I'm just saying that there is no need to accuse people of being attention whores because that would really pollute this discussion beyond repair.
If what the OP describes is serious Aspergers, intelligent, very few friends, "bad reactions to social stimuli" honestly the whole thing seems overrated, half the kids in school are like that, the evolution from shyness to getting teased to hating everyone is exactly the same.
Just adding, social difficulty is just a symptom, the diagnosis itself is far more advanced than that. Most likely you will have seen people with Aspergers that you never knew had it unless they told you. There are adults who have been diagnosed late in life ( late 40's etc.) and have lived a relative normal life until then with no problems. You don't see these people and that might lead you to think that the ones with social issues are the only ones with Aspergers, that's wrong.
On May 10 2011 09:27 Aeres wrote: So, TeamLiquid, what it comes down to is this: Do you feel that autism, along with other mental disorders such as ADD and bipolar disorder, are being "overdiagosed" to try and excessively label individuals that may not even have them? Is this rash of diagnosis for these conditions due to medical criteria that are simply too wide? Is this some widespread pharmaceutical scam to sell more prescription pills? *puts on tinfoil cap*.
I haven't read any replies yet but after seeing the name of the thread I'm surprised you include some commonly ignored logical parts.
Anyway I'll start with rhetorical questions on the thread name. "Autism as a "convenient" diagnosis?" In what way does it matter if autism is not a convenient diagnosis? In what way does it matter if autism is a convenient diagnosis?
Do you feel that autism, along with other mental disorders such as ADD and bipolar disorder, are being "overdiagosed" to try and excessively label individuals that may not even have them?
They are probably overdiagnosed in some areas etc but generally they are probably under diagnosed. Also, what would the point be with the "labeling"?
Is this rash of diagnosis for these conditions due to medical criteria that are simply too wide?
The medical criterias are probably too wide but that's how things work. The more you learn(in this case about the human brain) the more accurate things become. As usual there will be probably be new terms as we get more detailed knowledge, mistakes are corrected and so on.
Is this some widespread pharmaceutical scam to sell more prescription pills? *puts on tinfoil cap*.
Well it's great that you included a "why theory". That's what I meant with commonly ignored logical parts since so many discussions like this lacks some form of point.
I don't know, if these things are very over diagnosed it does not feel that likely that it would be because someone wants to sell more pills. The advertising, possible lobbying etc most likely have an effect on all medical conditions but I would guess those effects are usually in the +/- .01-10% range and not the 50-500% or whatever ranges this thread was created about.
Aspergers is an interesting case because it doesn't have a clearcut big pharma agenda behind it, yet the frequency of it being diagnosed has been increasing. This is a unique time in history where humans are actually identifying a difference between people who have a hard time functioning socially in a society and steps are being taken to help them.
Keep in mind that Aspergers is an Axis II disorder in the DSM-IV scale. People reading this thread should inform themselves about it to avoid misinformation being perpetuated.
ADD is another interesting case. The reason ADD is being diagnosed so readily is because a significant portion of society has it. In the past, people with ADD struggled with it and either persevered and became professionals or failed and became bums. Prescribed medication allows people suffering with ADD to cope with their defeciencies and lower the probability that they fail in their career goals.
Is ADD being overdiagnosed? Yes, but that is due to the medical ethics policy. ADD is present to some degree in many people in society. It is medically unethical for the doctor to deny a patient medication if the patient requests it and there is some need for it. That means that parents who want Adderall so their kid doesn't get straight C's throughout school will get the medications. This will allow their child to actually continue his education, where in the past he would have dropped out and become a minimum-wage earner.
Most people who have severe ADD suffer from it because their parents are horrible parents. However, the doctor can't fix the lack of good parenting and his best course is to offer medication to alleviate the worst symptoms. I always here a lot of people say that the solution to ADD is to have better parenting, but they never mention a system that would accomplish that. Good parenting would help with a lot of the behavioral disorders that people face today, but there are very few good parents out there.
I'm not a doctor, have zero experience in the medical field, absolutely zero credentials, but having read Yahoo news articles about this subject, I want you to listen to me while I ask leading questions!"
Facepalm. Before you make a blanket statement like
It seems like a convenient catch-all diagnosis
how about you find one, just one case of a mis-diagnosed case of Aspergers before you jump on the entire field of psychology. That's all: just one. Then you can work your way up from there, connecting dots. I'm not saying every diagnosis is correct - I'm saying you have zero concrete evidence.
I made this thread partly because I'm genuinely interested in finding an answer to this, but I also want to know what you guys think. I could just go Google my way to victory, but I feel that input from you guys is far more varied and valuable.
...seriously? You're forgoing proper research in favor of internet heroing? You're basically saying "Instead of researching and looking up the opinions of a couple dozen PhDs who have spent decades of their life researching this subject, how about I survey the opinions of a few people who play a video game by asking a leading question?"
On May 10 2011 10:22 Zooper31 wrote: TBH I think 80% of the people labeled with ADHD are just stupid, hyper, or lazy and don't actually have anything mentally wrong with them. My best friend's mom was worried about him for sometime when he was in middle school and she took him to a doctor and he got diagnosed with ADHD and was given medicine for it. Eventually we got around to talking about it and he kinda admitted that he was just lazy and just didn't choose to do his homework or w/e was needed. He never had an attention problem he just wasn't motivated I guess.
I guess my thought process goes along the same route for Autism, the borderline people, not the "savants" and the noticeably mentally handicapped ones.
I think it's just another excuse something people can blame things on and not themselves to escape responsibilities.
Side note. I took a free test at a ADHD awareness stand at a festival once and I had 5/6 of the symptons they tested for. I always joke about it sometimes as my excuse for not doing things sometimes because I clearly don't have it or it's never effected me. Straight A/Bs through all my school and usually the hardest worker when compared to my co-workers. I guess ADHD is a good thing right?
TBH i think your post is full of shit.
In the world right now that is formed by majority and so called 'standards' there comes a point in most of the people where they ask themselfes "am i standard"? And i tell you a little secret, Nobody is standard. Everyone is a unique individual person with a unique mindset but we all live in the standardized society. There are several ways to deal with the problem that we are not standard. Most of the people can adapt their social life with the standards of their society. Some people can give a good show to their environment and 'play standard' regardless of their personal mindset. There are also some people that cannot overcome their non standard behavior for whatever reasons (ADHD, ADD, Borderline, Depression or whatsoever). That doesn't mean these people are looking for "excuses" or "are just stupid, hyper, or lazy". Actually most of these people are very smart and above average but they cannot focus on things for a longer period of time or things get boring fast or they get distracted very easy.
Im sorry that i am not a specialist in ADHD or ADD my personal theme is Depression but there are some similarities. Most of the people i am speaking with are not aware of my illness because im a good 'actor of life' and i dont go to people and say "hey how are you? my name is ... and i have Depressions". I cant say that because that inflicts some serios problems in the interaction with other people. Mostly because people dont care about other peoples problems and/or they dont have the correct information about these diseases, just some stereotypical thoughts.
Oh my... i cant concentrate any longer...
My thoughts about the OP: I'm not so familiar with the state of these diagnosis in the US or in Germany either. I think mental disorders are expressions of our mind that want break out of the standardized society. Our Environment should see what we really are. We are all Unique. The fear for the unknown has a big influence in this diagnoses and also our society. Be open-minded. Live and let live.
ADD probably is over-diagnosed. I know somebody who had her doctor diagnose her with ADD specifically so that she could get extra time on exams, which is actually quite scummy, but I've never said that to her face because she's a friend I've known since I was a tot.
Autism I don't think is over-diagnosed -- rather, it is overly broad in it's definition. It's kind of like how roughly 50% of the population has "some form" of irritable bowel syndrome. It's a blanket diagnosis that covers varying problems of varying severity that feature certain common symptoms and except for severe cases where day-to-day functionality is badly compromised, we just need to tell people to man up.
Truthfully speaking, almost everybody on the planet has something medically not quite right with themselves. A perfectly healthy person is a rarity. As a society, we simply cannot afford to take a time out for every single little problem. There aren't enough resources and nobody would be allowed to actually live.
Not all autistics or aspergers are alike, they are a behavioural spectrum, not a symptom. It's like saying too many people are called rich. On a global average, I'm 'rich' and bill gates is 'rich', I make 550 bucks a month, he makes 550 bucks a second.
it's simply a way of comparing people to other people, and unless you're willing to get down into specifics, it's about as useless as a submarine with a screen door.
Everyone's concept of autism in this thread is fucking wrong
I literally can't fathom the ignorance in this thread. Comparing autism to ADD is a disgrace, and I can't believe how widespread this belief is.
Autism is not a social disease, its a form of retardation. The blanket description of calling autism a "social disease" is like calling skin cancer an "aesthetic disease". Autism isn't merely some excuse for shy nerds to have a reason behind why they can't make friends. Autism has insane physical detriments, mental handicaps, and social problems is a blanket statement for the general problems.
No. Autism is NOT overdiagnosed. The families who have autistic children (mine) would be disgusted with this thread.
edit: I need to clarify this is directed at some of the comments in the thread, not the OP, which is very well written.
I was diagnosed with ADHD and I do believe that it is overdiagnosed. I believe some kids mature at an older age than others and also some kids have shorter attention spans, but that does not warrant feeding them drugs to keep them under control.
I feel like there are certain situations where taking medication may be beneficial, but these days it is far too easy to obtain these types of medications and it has even come to the point where kids that obviously don't have ADHD are taking them with the intentions of being able to study unnaturally better.
I strongly believe they are overdiagnosed. When I was about 13 years old my parents divorced and I refused to live with my dad half the time. I did it because I felt that having to move back and forth between two houses was like a punishment and he was the one who cheated on my mom, but he took me to a doctor and talked about how I wouldn't listen to him, refused to talk, and refused to look him in the eye. I was in the room and remained silent the entire time. Solely from that the doctor through out the word "autism", he suggested that I may have a mild form of it. I thought it was total bullshit.
Later in my life I was depressed and had to a complete psychiatric evaluation which consisted of a 400 question true or false test of questions like "I feel excluded when I am out with friends", an IQ test, and a bunch of those fringe pseudoscience tests where you do things like describe what pictures you see in a blob of colors. Just from that test they thought I had Asperger's Syndrome. They didn't even know why I was depressed in the first place. I knew it was total bullshit. It's all about the money they get from these medications.
On May 10 2011 13:04 mOnion wrote: Everyone's concept of autism in this thread is fucking wrong
I literally can't fathom the ignorance in this thread. Comparing autism to ADD is a disgrace, and I can't believe how widespread this belief is.
Autism is not a social disease, its a form of retardation. The blanket description of calling autism a "social disease" is like calling skin cancer an "aesthetic disease". Autism isn't merely some excuse for shy nerds to have a reason behind why they can't make friends. Autism has insane physical detriments, mental handicaps, and social problems is a blanket statement for the general problems.
No. Autism is NOT overdiagnosed. The families who have autistic children (mine) would be disgusted with this thread.
Several people have brought it up in this thread, and I'll agree with them: overdiagnosis for autism isn't the problem so much as the spectrum being so broad. I worded that poorly, and I apologize.
I have absolutely no issue with autism, to be clear. There are obviously, OBVIOUSLY many legitimate, severe cases of autism. I'm simply referring to that area of the spectrum that is, as you said, the "shy nerd" section.
On May 10 2011 13:04 mOnion wrote: Everyone's concept of autism in this thread is fucking wrong
I literally can't fathom the ignorance in this thread. Comparing autism to ADD is a disgrace, and I can't believe how widespread this belief is.
Autism is not a social disease, its a form of retardation. The blanket description of calling autism a "social disease" is like calling skin cancer an "aesthetic disease". Autism isn't merely some excuse for shy nerds to have a reason behind why they can't make friends. Autism has insane physical detriments, mental handicaps, and social problems is a blanket statement for the general problems.
No. Autism is NOT overdiagnosed. The families who have autistic children (mine) would be disgusted with this thread.
Several people have brought it up in this thread, and I'll agree with them: overdiagnosis for autism isn't the problem so much as the spectrum being so broad. I worded that poorly, and I apologize.
I have absolutely no issue with autism, to be clear. There are obviously, OBVIOUSLY many legitimate, severe cases of autism. I'm simply referring to that area of the spectrum that is, as you said, the "shy nerd" section.
I didn't mean to offend, mOnion. = /
I'm not lashing at you, sorry, I just feel like I've seen this kind of thread in general and in blogs with people doing this kind of comparison. Living in a family with someone who's autistic is something I don't think any of you can even fathom, and my sister isn't even heavy autistic.
It's just such a strange misconception, and it's literally driving me insane. I've seen at least 5 or 6 different threads on the subject and its ludacris that people think they can be "diagnosed" with autism anywhere beyond like age 7 or 8 at the latest. I'm sorry you guys had trouble in school, I did too, I was a nerd as well, but you're not autistic.
Aspergers is another story of course because its SIGNIFICANTLY more mild, and I would appreciate it if the OP would change the bolded text to read aspergers.
On May 10 2011 13:13 mOnion wrote: Aspergers is another story of course because its SIGNIFICANTLY more mild, and I would appreciate it if the OP would change the bolded text to read aspergers.
I've been diagnosed with AS a bunch of times (maybe 4) over the last 10years by various people in the medical profession so I do think they just throw it around like whatever. Most of these people had the diagnosis done before they met me in person or after one encounter with me. I was pretty convinced that they were full of shit since they had noting to back up their claims but unfortunately I had a huge amounts of tests done spanning over ~4months or so and well now I have to buckle down to the evidence. On the other hand it wont change anything in my life and it'll continue to be kinda fubar.
On May 10 2011 13:13 mOnion wrote: Aspergers is another story of course because its SIGNIFICANTLY more mild, and I would appreciate it if the OP would change the bolded text to read aspergers.
Yes. My mother and several of my female friends work in the mental health sector and they all feel this diagnosis is a very vague and as you say, "catch-all" diagnosis. A few of my friends have mental disorders of some form, none of them appear as extreme as you might think from the criteria to be diagnosed with this. Only one of whom I know have severe Aspbergers, it was my ex girlfriend's brother. He was functional up to a certain point, he couldn't let people very close to his personal space and required to work on his music for almost all of his days. If someone is unaware, autism/aspbergers persons often have a special area of expertise where they feel very comfortable and excel at. His was music and he rarely spoke.
My point is; There are varying degrees of all of the diagnosises we have. Are we more keen on picking up those who are on the very edge of each diagnosis now? Or have we just resorted to that each time a child is behaving somewhat out of the ordinary? Very good OP, thank you.
This was an interesting read to me. As a person not very knowledgeable of autism I don't think I'm qualified to say anything but i did notice a lot more people in our special ed program in elementary school towards the end. I think at the start there were like 4 and at the end there was a whole class. That may just be the school increasing in size though.
One of the angles I haven't really seen addressed so far is the misuse of prescription medication in academic settings. I feel like this is one of the reasons there is this idea that ADD is overdiagnosed but I really haven't seen enough evidence either way. Personally it seems unlikely that we have become worse at diagnosing people with mental illness especially with the stigma it carries. At the same time I understand what a lot of the posters here have been saying.
I feel like in the past there was a lot of ignorance on the subject which undoubtedly has led to more awareness but I am just not sure of what the current state of diagnoses is. I am more of the opinion that if the medication is helping people and it is given by a legitimate doctor than I will trust it. Good thread, I didn't go in knowing a lot about the topic.
Got a friend who says she has aspbergers. Like many others, she did one of those online test-yourself thingies, ended up positive. She has never gone to a doctor to check herself, of course, despite me constantly telling her to. As far as I can tell, she has plenty of friends and no difficulties socially.
It's an easy way to explain (read: blame) your inability to make friends. It makes the person sensitive and unempathic(?). And of course, with aspbergers you're automatically "smarter" than the rest. Another way to explain that, however, would be laziness, expecting friends to drop out from the sky, and an excuse to be mean and/or selfish towards others. And probably not much smarter than anyone else either. But the symptoms are similar, so hey.
Not trying to shit on those who really do suffer from it (seen autism in real life, it's pretty horrible...), but seriously. Many of those who claim they have it, have never gone to a doctor to check. When they say they have, they probably mean one of those online things. And even if they have, as you say, quite a lot of them are probably misdiagnosed as well.
By the way, according to most of those studies, I'm apparently also extremely likely to suffer from aspbergers. Wouldn't you know it.
I do think it's mainly a society problem that goes in the direction of "he doesn't do well with others - it's aspergers", "he has a lot of energy - must be ADD". In my opinion the problem often lies on the other side - "The others don't accept him because he is more intelligent than they are, so he has no way to develop social skills" or "he can't release his energy at home because his parents only let him spend time in front of the TV, so he can only spend the energy at school"
While i'm sure that there are quite a lot of cases of true aspergers/autism/add, i am very sure it's overdiagnosed because it's easier to say "something is wrong with him" than "something is wrong with his parents" or "something is wrong with the people in his environment".
I was in a situation where i would have surely been diagnosed with aspergers, mostly because i had at most a single friend, but some people later admitted to mostly picking on or avoiding me because they felt dumb compared to me, so it wasn't that something was wrong with me, i was just more intelligent than they were, which made me a social outcast with no chance to develop social skills, empathy, etc.
On what monion said, there are also key differences between autism and aspergers, even though there are many similarities
Aspergers is what you would describe as someone being "high up on the autistic spectrum" - not someone with autism. I don't know why medical science has described it this way because it is very confusing
Most people with aspergers are perfectly happy to engage with other people, and some will do so very readily and willingly.. even if they are to constantly fail. People with aspergers suffer no real learning difficulties academically People with autism usually do not enjoy social interaction at all and have severe learning difficulties that extend far beyond a social spectrum, and is as monion described, a direct form of mental retardation
People who say "you're just using it as an excuse cause you don't fit in" should be shot. No - people like THAT are the problem in society, people that constantly demand everyone fit an ideological social norm and that anyone outside of that simply doesn't "fit in" If people, especially adolescents, were more willing to accept people of a wide variety of personalities, including that of a minority, then there wouldn't be a problem in the first place
I haven't read the entire thread, but I did see DSM mentioned. DSM-IV is under revision, so things will change (DSM-V is set for release in 2013). For example, Asperger's will be "subsumed" into Autism Spectrum Disorder.
Here's a link to the proposed revision for ASD: Autism DSM-V
I do want to say that those online tests where you can see your autism score or whatever tend to be untrustworthy and meaningless beyond the idea of an 'autism potential score'. That is to say, if you feel like you might suffer from something like that, you can do one of those tests and it might give a better clue, but you do actually need to visit a medical professional to get a proper diagnosis. I think their existence is a little bit problematic though, since a lot of people just read some description of the syndrome and then decide they have it.
i have Asperger's Syndrome as well and i can feel a difference between me and other people ... but i still not willing to take anything against like medicin for be more "poltical correct" and puts better in this "socity" well i think it can be huge or not huge depends on how you react on that
On May 10 2011 18:13 Captain Mayhem wrote: Got a friend who says she has aspbergers. Like many others, she did one of those online test-yourself thingies, ended up positive. She has never gone to a doctor to check herself, of course, despite me constantly telling her to. As far as I can tell, she has plenty of friends and no difficulties socially. .
Oh wow. Diagnosing yourself through an online test is nothing short of ridiculous. It's those kinds of people who make autism look like an excuse, while it is a real mental illness.
On May 10 2011 18:48 BrTarolg wrote: On what monion said, there are also key differences between autism and aspergers, even though there are many similarities
Aspergers is what you would describe as someone being "high up on the autistic spectrum" - not someone with autism. I don't know why medical science has described it this way because it is very confusing
Most people with aspergers are perfectly happy to engage with other people, and some will do so very readily and willingly.. even if they are to constantly fail. People with aspergers suffer no real learning difficulties academically People with autism usually do not enjoy social interaction at all and have severe learning difficulties that extend far beyond a social spectrum, and is as monion described, a direct form of mental retardation
People who say "you're just using it as an excuse cause you don't fit in" should be shot. No - people like THAT are the problem in society, people that constantly demand everyone fit an ideological social norm and that anyone outside of that simply doesn't "fit in" If people, especially adolescents, were more willing to accept people of a wide variety of personalities, including that of a minority, then there wouldn't be a problem in the first place
I'm a bit at a loss here, most of what is described in here seems like an autist is someone who has trouble relating to others and socialazing, or doing so but not feeling it. But a lot of persons are like that naturally, the few autists I met where much different than that, not willing to talk at all to anybody they didn't know, not responding to them if talked to, and having to "accept" you before aknowledging you even exist. I'm very ignorant on the matter, I don't know the different scales and forms of autism. This is not a critique falling into your "you're just using it as an excuse cause you don't fit in" description but a question on how those different forms differentiate.
Autism is hardly crippling. There are plenty of successful, happy autistic individuals out there. Can't we just leave things at "people are different" for this "disorder"?
There is just a very, very wide spectrum. Some people are barely Autistic at all. Some people are extremely Autistic.
I guess people in this thread would be happier if people who were borderline Autism spectrum were not diagnosed... but again, what is the point? There is no treatment. There is no drug cure. The only thing a diagnosis does is raise self-awareness of your own potential problems. You never even have to tell anyone. There is no harm in the diagnosis at all.
ADHD is an entirely different story and you shouldn't try to lump it into this topic.
On May 10 2011 19:32 dcemuser wrote: Autism is under-diagnosed, honestly.
There is just a very, very wide spectrum. Some people are barely Autistic at all. Some people are extremely Autistic.
I guess people in this thread would be happier if people who were borderline Autism spectrum were not diagnosed... but again, what is the point? There is no treatment. There is no drug cure. The only thing a diagnosis does is raise self-awareness of your own potential problems. You never even have to tell anyone. There is no harm in the diagnosis at all.
ADHD is an entirely different story and you shouldn't try to lump it into this topic.
Surely these diagnoses are very overused and are on the verge of losing their actual and important meaning.
Alot of kids get diagnosed simply because they find our school system to be dull. Todays information and technology society engage and stimulate our minds every second of our day, whereas the school system is the only institution still stuck in the unindividualistic and (now) unmodern ways of the 1900s.
How can one living today not have a very strong interest in stuff other than school? We need to come up with new ways to teach by using technology to its full potential, not simply as a mere tool. Books out, technology creativity and individualism in, the end of this almost archaic era.
A better school system, as thats often where the initial concerns of an eventual diagnosis starts, and I think these misdiagnoses will solve themselves.
Because everything exists on a sliding scale, it is inevitable that diagnosis will vary as the perception of certain grades of a condition slide.
What I mean is, one way to look at it is that everyone has autism(because autism is defined in terms of conditions that are in existence within the "diagnosed" individual) to a varying degree.
A more clear cut example because the very name of the disorder is so telling is the "Bi-polar personality disorder". Everyone is bi-polar in the sense that there are two extremes from which and to which their emotional state can travel(unless they do not have emotional states, a condition I am not familiar with if it exists).
However, as bi-polar became more prevalent in the community consciousness, the diagnosis became more common, just as you have described with autism.
The problem with this standard of psychiatry is that grouping people is only vaguely helpful in identifying the symptoms that they have. Furthermore, when you give someone a label, you encourage them to find out what that label means, which can actually cause them to enhance their symptoms in accord with the diagnosis.
It is more valuable instead to approach each person as unique and individual, rather than a faceless diagnosis.
The article said 1 in 38 have traits of autism. Having traits of autism isn't the same as being autistic. A lot of the symptoms of autism are personality traits that anyone might possess. It's having them in the right combination that makes you autistic. The article even goes on to say that some of that 1 in 38 probably could benefit from treatment but that they couldn't claim that all of them would.
You later quote a description of Asperger's and decide your shy friend who is into cars would qualify. No, he wouldn't. The phrases were "unusually intense, circumscribed interest" as opposed to "has a hobby" and "Qualitative abnormalities in reciprocal social interaction" as opposed to "is shy". If he had Asperger's you wouldn't be saying he's "very into cars". His interest would be more along the lines of memorization of a very narrow set of facts as opposed to genuine interest in a broad topic. AS also has nothing at all to do with shyness; it's not reacting appropriately to social interaction. It comes off more as insensitivity than shyness although someone with Asperger's might learn to be withdrawn after enough failed attempts at social interaction.
You're reading too much into the first article and simply not understanding what the criteria mean in the second example you quoted. If casting a wider net means that autistic kids lead more fulfilling lives then hooray for wider nets, in my opinion.
I agree one hundred percent. A ton of mental issues get over diagnosed. my sister for example, who is just lazy and doesn't want to do work/school, got diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and there is absolutely nothing wrong with her. Yet she gets benefits from the state to help her because she is "disabled" (Swedish welfare...).
Maybe that makes me sound like an asshole but it pisses me off since I am lazy as well but i still used to work (now i go to school again).
[QUOTE]On May 10 2011 20:33 piegasm wrote: The article said 1 in 38 have traits of autism. Having traits of autism isn't the same as being autistic. A lot of the symptoms of autism are personality traits that anyone might possess. It's having them in the right combination that makes you autistic. The article even goes on to say that some of that 1 in 38 probably could benefit from treatment but that they couldn't claim that all of them would.
You later quote a description of Asperger's and decide your shy friend who is into cars would qualify. No, he wouldn't. The phrases were "unusually intense, circumscribed interest" as opposed to "has a hobby" and "Qualitative abnormalities in reciprocal social interaction" as opposed to "is shy". If he had Asperger's you wouldn't be saying he's "very into cars". His interest would be more along the lines of memorization of a very narrow set of facts as opposed to genuine interest in a broad topic. AS also has nothing at all to do with shyness; it's not reacting appropriately to social interaction. It comes off more as insensitivity than shyness although someone with Asperger's might learn to be withdrawn after enough failed attempts at social interaction.
You're reading too much into the first article and simply not understanding what the criteria mean in the second example you quoted. If casting a wider net means that autistic kids lead more fulfilling lives then hooray for wider nets, in my opinion.[/QUOT
Fantastic post, exactly what I was thinking but more concise and well written .
Also in general it really bothers me when people confuse aspergers with classical autism. Though they both share similar traits in regards to social interaction, autism is far more debilitating in nearly every single way. Also not all aspergers and autism sufferers are savants, they are not all brilliant at a specific skill or area.
The article said 1 in 38 have traits of autism. Having traits of autism isn't the same as being autistic. A lot of the symptoms of autism are personality traits that anyone might possess. It's having them in the right combination that makes you autistic. The article even goes on to say that some of that 1 in 38 probably could benefit from treatment but that they couldn't claim that all of them would.
You later quote a description of Asperger's and decide your shy friend who is into cars would qualify. No, he wouldn't. The phrases were "unusually intense, circumscribed interest" as opposed to "has a hobby" and "Qualitative abnormalities in reciprocal social interaction" as opposed to "is shy". If he had Asperger's you wouldn't be saying he's "very into cars". His interest would be more along the lines of memorization of a very narrow set of facts as opposed to genuine interest in a broad topic. AS also has nothing at all to do with shyness; it's not reacting appropriately to social interaction. It comes off more as insensitivity than shyness although someone with Asperger's might learn to be withdrawn after enough failed attempts at social interaction.
You're reading too much into the first article and simply not understanding what the criteria mean in the second example you quoted. If casting a wider net means that autistic kids lead more fulfilling lives then hooray for wider nets, in my opinion
qft
At any rate there's no doubt doctors nowadays seem to like throwing arround this kind of diagnosis as an explanation.
You can notice ADD and Dyslexia becoming overused recently aswell, one out of every 2 sweedish people i know seems to suffer or have kids suffering of something of the sort. Imo it's a counterproductive thing to let your kid think he's dyslexic so he won't put up any effort in proper spelling. Even most people that suffer from it have np writing a proper paper if they concentrate.
As for ADD, man when i was a kid no1 even knew of that shit, though in hindsight i can remember a few kids that showed simptoms. Remedy was simple back then...some1 in school yelling at the SHUT UP AND LISTEN, and all the adders were cured in a year !
It's a common reaction when people are presented with the figures for diagnosed mental disorders in the "western" world vs other places to think that perhaps a lot of the disorders are being misdiagnosed by trigger happy doctors.
It's important to understand that as with any mental disorder, you can read off a list of symptoms and they might seem innocuous to you, and you might even think you have one or two, but that is not the same thing as being diagnosed. At least with the DSM-IV, for every disorder I've seen, there are multiple symptoms listed, and the disorder itself is a pattern of these symptoms, so multiple symptoms have to be present for a diagnosis. For autism specifically I believe the number is six, with some of those having to be in different categories.
I think whats more likely is that we are gaining a better understanding of how the mind works, and how certain mental disorders work, and this "rise" of autism is just the recognition of symptoms previously gone unnoticed. The rate of incidence rising just reflects that, its not that so many more people have autism now than before, its just being recognized. That being said, like others have mentioned, it is a spectrum disorder, so statistics like 1 in 100 are misleading. I've seen numbers from 1 in 50 to 1 in 2000, its important to know what criteria are being used
Your friend liking cars and being shy is in no way close close to what is described by what you've linked or any other criteria. The qualifications to get diagnosed as autistic arent that low. And its an evolving field... the increase in cases can very much just be a result of better knowledge being available in 2011 and not some kind of pharm pushed rush to diagnose everyone. While drugs are certainly used to treat it to some degree, it's not like ADD where drs are handing out pills left and right to every kid who comes in
A. A total of six (or more) items from (1), (2), and (3), with at least two from (1), and one each from (2) and (3)
(1) qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:
(a) marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction (b) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level (c) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest) (d) lack of social or emotional reciprocity
(2) qualitative impairments in communication as manifested by at least one of the following:
(a) delay in, or total lack of, the development of spoken language (not accompanied by an attempt to compensate through alternative modes of communication such as gesture or mime) (b) in individuals with adequate speech, marked impairment in the ability to initiate or sustain a conversation with others (c) stereotyped and repetitive use of language or idiosyncratic language (d) lack of varied, spontaneous make-believe play or social imitative play appropriate to developmental level
(3) restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:
(a) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus (b) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals (c) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g., hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements) (d) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects
B. Delays or abnormal functioning in at least one of the following areas, with onset prior to age 3 years: (1) social interaction, (2) language as used in social communication, or (3) symbolic or imaginative play
C. The disturbance is not better accounted for by Rett's Disorder or Childhood Disintegrative Disorder.
On May 10 2011 19:24 Acritter wrote: Autism is hardly crippling. There are plenty of successful, happy autistic individuals out there. Can't we just leave things at "people are different" for this "disorder"?
you are a moron
edit: alright alright, lemme clarify that you are speaking about asperger's and not autism. this video outlines some of the day to day tribulations associated with living with a child with autism. i suggest you watch it and read the DRM IV diagnosis for autism before making blanket statements like "autism is hardly crippling"
I definitely think it's being overused in an attempt to come up with an excuse for why certain children are a little different or aren't doing quite as well in one way or another. It's the same with ADD/ADHD/etc. Parents don't want to take responsibility for really raising the child and use it as an excuse to say that odd behaviors/not paying attention in school/etc. are perfectly fine. It also cheapens the diagnosis for those that actually have these problems and really need help. That said, I don't feel like it's just being diagnosed to every third kid that comes into a doctor's office with some social problems.
A. A total of six (or more) items from (1), (2), and (3), with at least two from (1), and one each from (2) and (3)
(1) qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:
(a) marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction (b) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level (c) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest) (d) lack of social or emotional reciprocity
(2) qualitative impairments in communication as manifested by at least one of the following:
(a) delay in, or total lack of, the development of spoken language (not accompanied by an attempt to compensate through alternative modes of communication such as gesture or mime) (b) in individuals with adequate speech, marked impairment in the ability to initiate or sustain a conversation with others (c) stereotyped and repetitive use of language or idiosyncratic language (d) lack of varied, spontaneous make-believe play or social imitative play appropriate to developmental level
(3) restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:
(a) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus (b) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals (c) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g., hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements) (d) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects
B. Delays or abnormal functioning in at least one of the following areas, with onset prior to age 3 years: (1) social interaction, (2) language as used in social communication, or (3) symbolic or imaginative play
C. The disturbance is not better accounted for by Rett's Disorder or Childhood Disintegrative Disorder.
seriously, throw that up in the op because it's pretty damn lacking.
I don't know about the USA, but I know that in Canada any symptoms of a disorder must be severe enough to affect your life for it to be considered a disorder, otherwise it is merely symptoms. 1/38 having symptoms is realistic, but 1/38 having the disorder is far different.
I know that I have Tourette Syndrome. My case was pretty severe when I was younger, but I have since learned how to control it (without medications), to the point that nobody would know I have it if I didn't tell them. I also consider myself lucky, because my case, while fairly severe when I was younger, still seemed incredibly mild to some of the worst cases out there. And the fact that I've learned to control it pretty well is definitely a good thing as well.
Autism may be a lazy diagnosis, but the really conspicuously terrible ones are ADD/ADHD, bipolar, and Starcraft addition. (One of these is not like the others).
Wonder why we never seem to discuss what appears to be a wide spread dislike of mental illness/personality disorder diagnoses in general.
Reading threads like this makes me want to know what the thought process behind the dislike is. If there is one since it's probably completely normal to simply dislike things. And it's probably to a degree what the thread is about.
But no one will reply and try to explain why they feel a dislike for for example the ADD diagnose itself so it's pointless to ask now when I think about it.
I think the excessive diagnosing occurs because parents simply want the best for their child even if what they are suffering from is extremely mild. Can you honestly blame them for that?
What I'm not down with is how being introverted and extremely interested in hobbies or activities that aren't very social means a person is autistic these days. Back in the 90s it was simply "oh he's just quiet and shy." Now it's some kind of disorder? I understand there's overlap. But as a very introverted and private person that keeps most things going on in my life to myself it's strange. People think there is a problem with me because I don't feel like it's necessary to carry on idle chatter with them. Not everybody is on the same social wavelength. I don't want to talk to you multiple times a day, every day. Even if we are dating or very close friends/family, it is overwhelming for me. But if we are close I am willing to find middle ground if the other person is much more craving of social attention from me.
I'm also not down with how readily docs throw prescriptions out. But they are under a lot of pressure from said parents.
Although individuals with Asperger syndrome acquire language skills without significant general delay and their speech typically lacks significant abnormalities, language acquisition and use is often atypical.[7] Abnormalities include verbosity, abrupt transitions, literal interpretations and miscomprehension of nuance, use of metaphor meaningful only to the speaker, auditory perception deficits, unusually pedantic, formal or idiosyncratic speech, and oddities in loudness, pitch, intonation, prosody, and rhythm.[3]
This would mean that the usual SC2 strategy forum poster has Asperger.
The whole article looks like the definition of it was achieved in a very unscientific way and could be applied to anyone with a job. These people must be desperate to stay in theirs, otherwise they wouldn't create such things.
On May 11 2011 04:22 Akta wrote: Wonder why we never seem to discuss what appears to be a wide spread dislike of mental illness/personality disorder diagnoses in general.
Reading threads like this makes me want to know what the thought process behind the dislike is. If there is one since it's probably completely normal to simply dislike things. And it's probably to a degree what the thread is about.
But no one will reply and try to explain why they feel a dislike for for example the ADD diagnose itself so it's pointless to ask now when I think about it.
I tend to believe that people like to operate on an assumption of free will and choice in individuals. Whenever people attempt to explain human behavior by pointing to factors beyond an individuals control, such as the physiology of the brain, it undermines the notion of will or choice in favor of a deterministic explanation for both thoughts and behavior. This in turn undermines a person's ability to apply responsibility, judgements, or other socially desirable attitudes towards an individual.
No two people are exactly the same when it comes to Asperger's. But those who are affected, exhibit superhuman traits in other mental areas - to make up for social deficiencies.
An aspergian might be able to completely visualize everything that's happening in the millions of pathways within a microchip. Or perform astoundingly accurate performances on a musical instrument(upon merely hearing the song once), or be able to communicate and manage animals in such a way that a normal human would find very challenging.
Aspergians can communicate very effectively in written form and tell you exactly what's on their mind and how they feel. Just don't force them to look you in the eye when you're talking to them. They're more likely shifting their eyes to the side or entirely avoiding face to face contact, or even looking down whilst listening.
The lack of empathy makes it very easy for them to say potentially very damaging things to another person, eg. they see that you're incompetent(in their eyes) at a specific task, and they'll just straight up tell you "you're useless", and in an even tone, too. That hurts you harder versus someone who's obviously saying it in a malicious manner. Due to this, they have to explicitly be told, or otherwise learn, that there are certain behaviors that they're supposed to show, or do, based on the situation. There are specific things that they've learned, they shouldn't say in specific situations.
For example if you tell them something bad happened to you, which really matters to you, and you needed to tell someone. A normal person would see your facial expressions, listen to your tone of voice, and empathize. An Aspergian would go "oh that's unfortunate" but there's no human warmth. Or heaven forbid they go "ok" and say "i'm hungry let's go eat". They don't "get" the emotional plea for empathy.
The key is, you can't take anything an Aspergian says personally. They can be very insulting(they're just speaking their mind), very cold(they're not equipped to understand or properly process your emotion). People who downplay emotion constantly, saying it's useless, nothing about emotion matters...makes you wonder if they're aspergians.
Aspergians can live through very productive lives otherwise, when they put their skills to use. Think about the guy who invented the bitorrent client.
So what if mental health problems exist in a spectrum ranging from debilitating to mild to normal? So what if a very large amount of people can benefit from special treatment, and even psychiatric drugs? Are these things automatically wrong without evidence? How are these things automatically out of the question? On what basis? On what evidence? Because it's common sense? You just know it? You feel it in your gut? Since when was reasoning like Stephen Colbert a substitute for medical science?
ADD and ADHD are the biggest bullshit "disorders" that exist in america, but i don't think autism has reached that level yet, hopefully it won't ever. But studies like this don't help. 1 in 35 is total crap, if somethings that common it doesn't really qualify as a disorder.
For every 15 kids i've ever met with "ADD", probably one of them actually has it. The rest are just like everyone else, but if you look hard enough everyone has these "symptoms" on some level.
I'm about as much of a fan of the whole Asperger's fuss as I am a fan of ADHD "diagnoses" and "treatment". We could very well invent a new condition called "Bachelor Frog Syndrome", diagnosis of which requires that at least 75% of all canon BF statements apply to you. Poof! Millions of new patients.
There is an amusing article on brain imaging studies that aimed to investigate the brains of normal people for some reason or another. At some point, people realised that what is considered "normal" is actually quite abnormal (Mazziotta et al., 2009).
I completely agree with OP. I haven't heard of anyone being diagnosed with Aspergers in this way, but ADD... ADD has lost all meaning, apparently everyone has it =.=
I totally agree with you Aeres. One time I was talking to one of my sisters/own friend's husband, about how their child who I babysitted before was rather out of control. They said he was being very violent and rebellious (to everyone), into pornography or something,and general bad behavior. He was maybe 11 years old at the time. They said when they brought him to metal assesment, they said the doctor diagnosed him with Asperger's.
I couldn't believe that, and I told him that. He had hardly any sign of Asperger's in my opinion. If anything, I'd say his condition was sociopathy (psychopathy), not Asperger's. I don't think he took my comments too seriously, because we were with a whole bunch of other people and were drinking alcohol at the time, and I wasn't at all aggressive about it, but I did really think it was strange/stupid.
Anyway, that said I had an experience with someone who said he had Asperger's, and I definitely agree it seemed that way. On a VOIP server I regularly visit, this new person joins and starts chatting with me and some others. He oftentimes wouldn't seem to understand people's tone of voice much, or when they are sarcastic or joking, although definitely not all the time (people aren't mindless). He would make jokes sometimes (or at least say they were jokes afterwards), but they seemed pretty not funny, rather basic/obvious, or sometimes like not even jokes at all. With regards to focused interested... it seemed like he was totally enthralled about video (or more so PC) games...he didn't know much about PCs themselves, but had a pretty damn high knowledge of video games it seemed, and even movies and TV shows a bit too maybe (obviously lots of people are video game or especially TV enthusiasts though)
On May 10 2011 09:48 puckstop101 wrote: I was diagnosed as well with Asperger syndrome when i was younger. In relative terms I was one of the first of the kids diagnosed with it, 1993. In terms of medicine, i was on respidol for about 10 years, but i never liked how i felt on it. It made me feel less intelligent then i actually was, it did help with behavior problems i had, but i felt almost like i was floating sometimes, I don't mean like a high form drugs or anything, but..... man its hard to explain it really.
In terms of the 1 to 100 or something, i always hoped that was wrong because I never wanted anyone to go though school or growing up like i did. I defiantly feel like that is a higher estimate then it actually is, Given in a town if 75000 there were only like 25-30 kids with asperger syndrome
Edit: A couple people are asking what exactly are the symptoms of Asperger syndrome? It varies form person to person, but for me personnly, I had a very hard time being social with other kids growing up. I've always had problems with body language, even to this day and 'm 21 now. It has gotten better but there are plenty of times where i just miss signs your showing me, or not being able to tell whats going on. this made is very hard is school to making friends as i was constantly annoying people, so i was always an outsider growing up in school. I'm a very anti social person nowadays where i only have a few really good friends that i hang out with. I always been highly motivated in 1-2 subjects and absolute crap in others. I also have big problems with routine changes when i was younger. I'm better now with it, but it does annoy me sometimes.
I find your edit to describe what I would usually consider a "nerd or geek", and therefore aply it to a wide range of people I know. May I ask you what do u think what is different in you than a standard geek?
I mean, even I can relate with "having a hard time being social with other kids" and having awkward body language sometimes, and i'm sure many people do aswell.
A newer medical opinion than what you will get from most PCPs:
So the average practicing doc is in their late 30s. When they were educated, aka 15 years ago, the criterion upon which one would make a diagnosis of any disorder with a SIGNIFICANT social component was much broader. Their first 5-8 years in the field had little to no practical updates to what they were taught. It was only after they had been set in that we saw a significant boom in education and the definition of what Autism-spectrum disorders entailed (everything from Asberger's to classical autism) is STILL murky. I cannot blame any practicing physician not working in a hospital setting for being out of touch with Austism-spectrum disorders. Without the institutional support of a hospital, I doubt most older IM or Peds docs get to see enough variants to appreciate the range of the autism spectrum.
ADD/ADHD on the other hand is a diagnosis of convenience. The rates of which have not increased in non-Western countries for a reason. The combination of increasingly high-pressure situations on children (compare US elementary ed to Europe, for example), decreased parental involvement, increased demand on teachers, and the trouble of behavior modification rather than prescription-management methods of social behaviors makes a title and a scrip WAYYYY easier than dealing with the realization... "Not every kid is a genius, not every kid is well-behaved, this kid needs to be taught a bit about how to behave."
While I do not support physical discipline per se...I sure as hell grew up knewing I'd get my ass whooped if I acted out. I didn't know anyone with ADD/ADHD until later in my educational career because before those kids just got spanked/belted/punished more until they fell into line. That is anecdotal, not professional commentary.
On May 11 2011 09:34 funnybananaman wrote: ADD and ADHD are the biggest bullshit "disorders" that exist in america, but i don't think autism has reached that level yet, hopefully it won't ever. But studies like this don't help. 1 in 35 is total crap, if somethings that common it doesn't really qualify as a disorder.
For every 15 kids i've ever met with "ADD", probably one of them actually has it. The rest are just like everyone else, but if you look hard enough everyone has these "symptoms" on some level.
I agree, kids are excitable and energetic by their nature, some moreso than others but *usually* not so much that it warrants a label/disorder imo.
Also aspergers could well be the next ADD/ADHD and become ridiculously over diagnosed and loses it's meaning, which really sucks for the legit ones that may not get the attention that they need and what not.
I doubt asperger's are as "unconsciously tactless" as ppl think. Some ppl just aren't comfortable showing empathy or emotions in general. I always bottle up my emotions and then I burst occasionally when I'm alone.
There's no reason to look deeply into a diagnosis. A diagnosis is never definite since mental disorders are not diseases. You can overcome most mental disorders. I'm pretty sure you can overcome every single mental disorder that wasn't triggered by some form of brain damage. Someone with Social Anxiety could at a later time fit more as someone with Asperger's. A diagnosis doesn't say who you are, it just says what you struggles with overall. Also, I think it's unhealthy to get attached to a specific stereotype. It just makes it hard to break it. You can't "have" Asperger or Autism or whatever. Those are just words that describes groups of ppl that you could qualify under, but these words don't define who you are.
On May 11 2011 10:32 ninini wrote: I doubt asperger's are as "unconsciously tactless" as ppl think. Some ppl just aren't comfortable showing empathy or emotions in general. I always bottle up my emotions and then I burst occasionally when I'm alone.
There's no reason to look deeply into a diagnosis. A diagnosis is never definite since mental disorders are not diseases. You can overcome most mental disorders. I'm pretty sure you can overcome every single mental disorder that wasn't triggered by some form of brain damage. Someone with Social Anxiety could at a later time fit more as someone with Asperger's. A diagnosis doesn't say who you are, it just says what you struggles with overall. Also, I think it's unhealthy to get attached to a specific stereotype. It just makes it hard to break it. You can't "have" Asperger or Autism or whatever. Those are just words that describes groups of ppl that you could qualify under, but these words don't define who you are.
If you look at the list of symptoms, I have most symptoms of Asperger's, yet not inevitably and not categorically. "Aspies," as the community calls itself, will take the formidable position that "neuronormals" are no more normal than they are, they do not possess a syndrome as such, as it relegates them into an artificial and unworkable category, which undermines their individuality. Still, it makes you wonder why so many Aspies are so fascinated about their own condition.
I have never bothered to get a diagnosis, because I have never cared to know.
Sorry for the bump, but I thought I should mention that I just used this thread as a big reference for an important psychology presentation. Thanks to everyone who discussed the matter and to Aeres, the OP. It has provided me with an insight into the diagnosis of Autism.
On May 11 2011 09:34 funnybananaman wrote: ADD and ADHD are the biggest bullshit "disorders" that exist in america, but i don't think autism has reached that level yet, hopefully it won't ever. But studies like this don't help. 1 in 35 is total crap, if somethings that common it doesn't really qualify as a disorder.
For every 15 kids i've ever met with "ADD", probably one of them actually has it. The rest are just like everyone else, but if you look hard enough everyone has these "symptoms" on some level.
I disagree. I think autism has become so fashionable that the bullshit HAS reached that level. Fucking babies. People always looking for someone else to blame than themselves for their condtion or faults.
what a lot of people don't understand is that Asperger Syndrome is something that EVERYONE has. its a sliding scale or spectrum.
also Autism & Aspergers are different things.
-there is the very lower range which is the people who cant really function in normal society and have low IQ (generally referred to as "special")
-there is the lower range where people can function but are a bit "slow" / antisocial
-then there is "normal" where most people sit
-there is the higher range where people can function but usually a bit antisocial, as a general rule
- and then there is the very higher ranged where people cant function but have high IQ, people like the movie "Rainman"
so yeah, pretty much everyone has at least some of the checkboxes ticked for "Autism". So the chances that some Doctors & parents are misdiagnosing are probably quite high.
I am quite familiar with Aspergers because it runs in my family, I have many traits myself
On September 16 2011 10:38 TempusDESU wrote: Sorry for the bump, but I thought I should mention that I just used this thread as a big reference for an important psychology presentation. Thanks to everyone who discussed the matter and to Aeres, the OP. It has provided me with an insight into the diagnosis of Autism.
On May 10 2011 09:52 Aeres wrote: As a kid, I was far more introverted than everyone else. Pretty much all through grade school, I avoided social contact because I felt I didn't really need it; I was much more at ease just being by myself or with a couple of close friends, talking about relevant subjects, reading books, telling jokes, etc. I guess my social life in grade school was a drastically miniaturized version of your standard Joe Schmoe, in that I conversed normally with the few friends I had (about three or four), but far more often than not, I'd be playing on my DS, playing memory games, solving crossword puzzles, and all that. I did not react well to social stimuli from those I didn't know very well, so I tended to avoid them if at all possible. I was also a gigantic dick to people I disliked, and wasn't afraid to tell them that they were total sacks of shit. Mostly because I'm a blunt kind of person (I tell things like it is, and I despise euphemisms), but that sort of attitude led to other people describing me as strange.
so what you are saying is that you are perfectly normal?
I am pretty much just like this and by my doctors book ive always been the pinnacle of healthiness, both mentally and physically.
Not to belittle the disorder, but I do agree that austims (esp Aspergers), is dramatically over diagnosed. I have personal experience with a number of people suffering from forms of "autism" and at least in two of the cases I cant say that they are just on the other end of the Myers-Briggs test than the doctor who diagnosed them.
Im not saying Autism (or AS) is not a legit disorder, but I totally agree with your theory that it is just used as a last resort diagnosis for people when doctors cant figure out whats wrong (if anything).
That being said I find it hard to believe you would be considered "full blown" AS based on nothing but your writing. You seem very intuitive and self aware, and above all else skeptical of things, which I have always known (or been told) is one of the areas people with AS lack.
On May 10 2011 09:27 Aeres wrote: So, TeamLiquid, what it comes down to is this: Do you feel that Asperger's Syndrome, along with other mental disorders such as ADD, are being "overdiagosed" to try and excessively label individuals that may not even have them?
I highly doubt a single individual on TL knows. You'd need a large scale study with a random and i.i.d. drawn sample of individuals diagnosed with aspergers and then appose them to the DSM criteria using objective methodology and see the extent of the discrepancy. This then has to be repeated before we can be sure there is any over-diagnosing occuring.
On September 16 2011 11:53 Kh0rne wrote: what a lot of people don't understand is that Asperger Syndrome is something that EVERYONE has.
This is what many mental health professionals claim but it is not necessarily true from a neurological viewpoint. It may be a certain gene that some possess and some don't that causes abnormal brain development, and if this is the case then not everybody has it. Some may have 0 of it. You could perhaps say that "everybody fits into the DSM diagnosis at least a TINY bit", but that's a silly way of approaching it I think as there's biological/neurological causes and reasons for the symptoms, and just because someone may sit on the spectrum a tiny bit does not mean they suffer from the same underlying causes as high-functioning autistics. i.e. everyone has an extent of the symptoms =/= everyone suffers to an extent from high functioning autism.
arbitrageur: Aspergers and/or autism aren't diseases in the sense that aids or the cold are diseases, they are epithets applied to symptoms. Medically speaking it is called 'a condition on the scale of aspergers'. [tr from Dutch] If one were, rather crudely, take the empathy aspect of the conditions, and then take a representative reading from the human population, only the single best respondent would classify as "most emphatic", leaving the remaining respondents to be "deficient".
The biological/neurological causes you speak of are highly complex interactions within the human being's sub-faculties, they are very hard to pinpoint as is demonstrated by the loose definition currently used by the medical professions.
That is not to say that certain underlying conditions of autism cannot be determined, specific unusual and extreme cases being the easiest, but autism and aspergers cover everything from people catatonic due to complete lack of emotion to otherwise normal people not being very talkative because they've had a bad night.
Concerning the increase in the established cases of conditions on the asperger syndrome, I think it's a combination of three things: First the improved diagnostic capabilities of modern medicin, secondly the growing tendency to classify non-perfect character traits as disease to absolve the individual of responsibility of his/her imperfections, and thirdly the will to please care-customers by means of the second point and the ability to prescribe available medication.
disclaimer: I'm not a medical something, and I vowed to myself to keep out of this kind of discussions but I just can't help it TT
PS: In the time it took me to write this you edited your post, gg :p
On May 10 2011 09:27 Aeres wrote: So, TeamLiquid, what it comes down to is this: Do you feel that Asperger's Syndrome, along with other mental disorders such as ADD, are being "overdiagosed" to try and excessively label individuals that may not even have them?
I highly doubt a single individual on TL knows. You'd need a large scale study with a random and i.i.d. drawn sample of individuals diagnosed with aspergers and then appose them to the DSM criteria using objective methodology and see the extent of the discrepancy. This then has to be repeated before we can be sure there is any over-diagnosing occuring.
but he quite specificially said "do you feel, nothing to do with actual statistics, becuase they're less fun to discuss, but with how people perceive these sorts of disorders.
With that said: a thousand times yes, they're over the top, especially ADD (or, as we called it in my day, being a bit of a little shit). I'd not heard of aspergers being increasingly diagnosed at all, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was, and overly so. It's part of the "everyone is fine, equal, and there are no differences whatsoever. If you're different, you've got some disorder, and nothing is the parents' fault because it's a sacred duty" schtick going about, especially in childcare. You're not fat and slow, sports days aren't competitive, you're not thick, you're just doing the wrong subjects, and you're not an attention seeking irritating little prick because your parents don't have the slightest bit of control, you have adhd and it's all not your fault.
.. that was a little more vitriolic than I had intended, but I think anyone of my generation (mid-late twenties) has seen it happen over the course of going through education.
edit: I also realised it may sound as if I don't believe any of these disorders exist - I do, I just believe they're being vigourously misused as a scapegoat for awful parenting and teaching far too much.
Autism is a real disorder, not bad parenting, kids being kids or merely shyness or any other silly (and offensive) thing people come up with in their fantasies.
On September 16 2011 17:52 nepeta wrote: arbitrageur: Aspergers and/or autism aren't diseases in the sense that aids or the cold are diseases, they are epithets applied to symptoms. Medically speaking it is called 'a condition on the scale of aspergers'. [tr from Dutch] If one were, rather crudely, take the empathy aspect of the conditions, and then take a representative reading from the human population, only the single best respondent would classify as "most emphatic", leaving the remaining respondents to be "deficient"
I have only ever met 2 people that (I know) was diagnosed with aspergers syndrome (I may very well have met people that didn't tell me), and both of those were showing extremely clear signs of autism.
in my opinion there are so many problems that you can be born with that its practically impossible to be free of every single malady and diagnosis.
there are allergies, cancer, cronical problems, mental illness and in my case: dysmelia.
I bet you have never heard of that one before eh? interestingly enough I count myself lucky, why? you ask, because dysmelia is not a mental illness, congenital cancer, an allergy or something that hinders my thought-process nor anything that drastically hinders my every-day life.
it is not something that can be fixed or healed however.
in my case, I was born with no left hand. and guess what I have had the most trouble with so far in my 19 years of life: tying my shoes. thats right, I learned to tie my shoes in 7th grade. until then I couldn't. but today there is basicly nothing I can't do, as a matter of fact, there are some people out there driving cars using only their legs, don't ask me how they do it, I use my stump to take care of the wheel when I switch gears, thats the hardest thing I have to do when driving.
It's more than an increase in diagnostic ability. Enviromental factors such as increased premature birth survival rates are increasing the likely of the condition appearing.
Also psychology has risen to a respectable field in the last few decades... Taxpayer support ... Our child is a bit odd let's go get a heavily subsidized session when before it would've costed 120 dollars.
Not sure about the validity of this as you could've just gone to a subsidized psychiatrist.
You ask how I feel about the accuracy of diagnoses. This is an odd question, what would you learn from it and what would you do with this knowledge. I am scared of politics based on feelings rather than facts and as people pointed out before, it is very unlikely that people here have a deep insight into the field when you probably want to have a very deep insight in order to make up your mind about psychological disorders.
What really matters in the end is helping these people. You could make up the same line of logic about many disorders, lets say depression. However people do actually kill themselves and medicine can and does help these people. How important is an over diagnosis then? None whatsoever for when people use it as an excuse and you would take away this particular excuse, they will come up with another excuse. You feel that something isn't right here, I suggest that this does not matter much compared to other problems. After all it is very easy to come up with something that doesn't feel right and it is you who decides how much priority you give to it.
Finally a word about ADD. People are very fast in accusing an over diagnoses. What people rarely know though, some of these kids suffer physical pain, their mental problem establishes itself physically. These kids are so scared of school because they under perform (for example in math and because they cant concentrate much) and are bullied and blame themselves. Again the real world is much more complicated and difficult than the simple populism ADD doesn't really exist argument. And it is very difficult to have a reasonable argument going because of all the prejudice.
Our understanding of these disorders are so limited that the field is evolving rapidly. Autism in particular is very good source of information and gives much needed glimpse into human brain and the more its studied, the 'wider' it becomes as new information is uncowered. People such as Einstein, Van Gogh and Newton had symphtoms of varying degree iirc. It is only natural that medical research may feel bumpy these days when things are moving so fast.
Research has even led some research institutes to actually try to make artificial symptoms into healthy patients to increase their intelligence.
Is autism a bad thing? I dont know. All i know its not black and white, every case should be treated as individual, or we might ruin next Einstein or Mozart. It is certainly not something to be taken lightly.
It is unbelievably complex and fascinating phenomena, even for us laymen i feel.
To OP: What about environmental factors being a contributor and those environmental factors increasing? Could easily account for the increase in children born with autism/aspergers..
On September 16 2011 20:28 Undu wrote: To OP: What about environmental factors being a contributor and those environmental factors increasing? Could easily account for the increase in children born with autism/aspergers..
It is common opinion that there must be some environmental factor because genetics alone can't explain the rise in autism rates, although there is clearly a genetic component. Other disorders continue being diagnosed at similar rates, so autism isn't a "fad diagnosis" either where someone who previously would have gotten some other diagnosis nowadays gets autism instead.
I'm sure ADD is a legitimate concern for many people, but when I was in high school every kid (about 5 or 6) i knew who was diagnosed with ADD purposely tricked their doctor into giving them diagnosis by just saying they couldn't concentrate, and their was a list of reasons (i forget now) that if you just told the doctor he would diagnosis you with it. These kids would do this just to get the doctor to give them aderol and a couple other drugs which they would then just use them to get high or would sell them for couple bucks each to make money. The same with anti depressants though not as much, back in my school (for some kids) getting prescribed xanax or aderol was a big for them not because they needed it but because it was a steady supply of drugs to get high off of or make a quick buck.
On September 16 2011 20:47 -Duderino- wrote: I'm sure ADD is a legitimate concern for many people, but when I was in high school every kid (about 5 or 6) i knew who was diagnosed with ADD purposely tricked their doctor into giving them diagnosis by just saying they couldn't concentrate, and their was a list of reasons (i forget now) that if you just told the doctor he would diagnosis you with it.
Attention deficit disorder is not the same as autism. And yea I agree with your experiences, this is also something that's happening.
On September 16 2011 20:47 -Duderino- wrote: I'm sure ADD is a legitimate concern for many people, but when I was in high school every kid (about 5 or 6) i knew who was diagnosed with ADD purposely tricked their doctor into giving them diagnosis by just saying they couldn't concentrate, and their was a list of reasons (i forget now) that if you just told the doctor he would diagnosis you with it.
Attention deficit disorder is not the same as autism. And yea I agree with your experiences, this is also something that's happening.
ADD/ADHD is commonly refered to (here in DK) as "Alle drenge har det" which translates directly into "All boys have it" - those are definitely overdiagnosed imo, Aspergers and autism isn't really overdiagnosed here in DK is my feeling. At least those I met back when I worked at the psych. department were pretty "outstanding".
Call me ignorant (and I'm sure you will) but I find it rather unusual how 80% of these disorders didn't exist five decades ago. Seems like their astronomic rise is directly proportional to the number of shrinks out there... reminds me of viruses and anti-virus companies.
Ok, some people absolutely do have severe mental problems, but your average quirky kid is just that. Feeding young children with chemistry and telling them they have all kinds of disorders doesn't sound terribly constructive.
I don't know about asperger and autism, but I can tell you from personal experience that you can treat moderate to severe depression with nothing but a good dose of martial arts (discipline), music and fresh air.
On September 16 2011 20:28 Undu wrote: To OP: What about environmental factors being a contributor and those environmental factors increasing? Could easily account for the increase in children born with autism/aspergers..
It is common opinion that there must be some environmental factor because genetics alone can't explain the rise in autism rates, although there is clearly a genetic component. Other disorders continue being diagnosed at similar rates, so autism isn't a "fad diagnosis" either where someone who previously would have gotten some other diagnosis nowadays gets autism instead.
It is not like Asperger's has the most stringent diagnostic criteria. And the amount of cases varies pretty highly between studies. Do you have some links to the studies about increase in autism cases. Would like to see what do they actually measure. Because based on at least on my father's perspective (he is psychiatrist) Aspergers is overdiagnosed due to extending the cutoff point of the diagnosis further and further in time.
On September 16 2011 21:24 Kickboxer wrote: Call me ignorant (and I'm sure you will) but I find it rather unusual how 80% of these disorders didn't exist five decades ago. Seems like their astronomic rise is directly proportional to the number of shrinks out there... reminds me of viruses and anti-virus companies.
Ok, some people absolutely do have severe mental problems, but your average quirky kid is just that. Feeding young children with chemistry and telling them they have all kinds of disorders doesn't sound terribly constructive.
I don't know about asperger and autism, but I can tell you from personal experience that you can treat moderate to severe depression with nothing but a good dose of martial arts (discipline), music and fresh air.
I'm sorry, but saying that you can treat severe depression with martial arts and music really sounds like some kind of hippie bullshit haha :D
On September 16 2011 21:24 Kickboxer wrote: Call me ignorant (and I'm sure you will) but I find it rather unusual how 80% of these disorders didn't exist five decades ago. Seems like their astronomic rise is directly proportional to the number of shrinks out there... reminds me of viruses and anti-virus companies.
Ok, some people absolutely do have severe mental problems, but your average quirky kid is just that. Feeding young children with chemistry and telling them they have all kinds of disorders doesn't sound terribly constructive.
I don't know about asperger and autism, but I can tell you from personal experience that you can treat moderate to severe depression with nothing but a good dose of martial arts (discipline), music and fresh air.
In case of viruses it is easily because our detection technology actually improved in last 50 years unimaginably. Similarly that is part of the reason why there is increase in psychiatric diagnoses, but in my opinion it is also because as societies get wealthier they have more resources to spend on fixing conditions that are not deadly or even severe, but still people having them suffer in one way or another. There might be also some unnecessary diagnosing, but I would not call it really major.
EDIT: Also saying that treating severe depression with martial arts and music seems to indicate you actually do not know what severe depression is. Or you are one of the rare people lucky enough to get out of severe depression this way, but that does not mean everyone is the same as you. Generalizing you own life on all people seems kind of unreasonable.
On September 16 2011 21:24 Kickboxer wrote: Call me ignorant (and I'm sure you will) but I find it rather unusual how 80% of these disorders didn't exist five decades ago. Seems like their astronomic rise is directly proportional to the number of shrinks out there... reminds me of viruses and anti-virus companies.
Ok, some people absolutely do have severe mental problems, but your average quirky kid is just that. Feeding young children with chemistry and telling them they have all kinds of disorders doesn't sound terribly constructive.
I don't know about asperger and autism, but I can tell you from personal experience that you can treat moderate to severe depression with nothing but a good dose of martial arts (discipline), music and fresh air.
Well sometimes you can't (being depressed because you see daddy beating mommy isn't cured by fresh air), and you certainly can't treat actual medical afflictions with music.
But I do agree with you that it's rather unusual that so many kids are being diagnosed ADD/ ADHD, when a generation ago, those same kids would have been diagnosed with "having the energy and attention span of a kid".
Kickboxer wrote: I don't know about asperger and autism, but I can tell you from personal experience that you can treat moderate to severe depression with nothing but a good dose of martial arts (discipline), music and fresh air.
Many severe depressives would laugh in your face, if only they had the emotional will to do so. They can't actually DO martial arts or get fresh air because they suffer from psychomotor retardation. For light depressives, this is probably a good idea in addition to meds because both activities release the neurotransmitters in reward centers that depressives lack. Moderate to severe depressives should be on meds A-S-A-P, lest they wish to have severe hippocampus shrinking and permanent brain damage (certain anti-depression medication promotes the growth of new neurons and is experimentally proven to reduce the amount of hippocampus shrinking in long-term depressives).
On September 16 2011 21:56 arbitrageur wrote: (certain anti-depression medication promotes the growth of new neurons and is experimentally proven to reduce the amount of hippocampus shrinking in long-term depressives).
Link to article? Afaik there are no medications that stimulate growth of new neural tissue, only meds that inhibit the degredation of neurons.
On September 16 2011 21:24 Kickboxer wrote: Call me ignorant (and I'm sure you will) but I find it rather unusual how 80% of these disorders didn't exist five decades ago. Seems like their astronomic rise is directly proportional to the number of shrinks out there... reminds me of viruses and anti-virus companies.
Ok, some people absolutely do have severe mental problems, but your average quirky kid is just that. Feeding young children with chemistry and telling them they have all kinds of disorders doesn't sound terribly constructive.
They actually didn't exist 5 decades ago. Autism and asperger have been recently discovered, before they thought the children were just retarded.
I don't know about asperger and autism, but I can tell you from personal experience that you can treat moderate to severe depression with nothing but a good dose of martial arts (discipline), music and fresh air.
Oh boy, this is so wrong I don't know where to begin. Those all HELP treat depression,you can't treat severe depression with just those 3.
friend of mine has assburglers,OP was in same class with him, and hes sick smart when he wants to (plus side about it) yeah also anti-social is common with assburglers.
so the last time i heard from him,or any of my friends heard from him. was like... 5 months ago hes never online he only spends his time at the Tv watching movies.
Wow, I had no idea about any of this. Personally, I think it's horrible that doctors will just label someone something convenient and then they will have to live the rest of their lives with this "fact" in the back of their mind...
On September 16 2011 21:56 arbitrageur wrote: (certain anti-depression medication promotes the growth of new neurons and is experimentally proven to reduce the amount of hippocampus shrinking in long-term depressives).
Link to article? Afaik there are no medications that stimulate growth of new neural tissue, only meds that inhibit the degredation of neurons.
The cessation of hippocampus shrinking with meds is proven and the growth of new neurons in mice/rats is proven.
The papers are available in Robert Sapolsky's Stanfard lectures on the neuroscience of depression, available on Youtbe
I have worked at camp new hope (A camp for the mentally/physically challenged) for about a year now, and most of the kids I have worked with that had Aspergers have shown almost no symptoms. To be honest, if a doctor hadn't told them at a young age they had it I don't think anyone would even notice they are different.
It is exactly the same with ADD, i know that so many kids in australia get diagnosed with ADD even though they clearly are mildly too not even affected by a chemical imbalance and are just fools with shitty trash parents who don't know how to raise or discipline their kids.
That being said it is sad when these sort of mass diagnosis things happen because it really waters down the credibility of people who actually suffer from disorders or afflictions like autism/add and lead way to alot of scientists/doctors trying to make a name for themselves by completely denouncing such medical diagnosis to make a career out of it. I think its terrible and there should be stricter standards.
If anyone wants to convince me otherwise or has any argument please just PM me.
On September 16 2011 21:56 arbitrageur wrote: (certain anti-depression medication promotes the growth of new neurons and is experimentally proven to reduce the amount of hippocampus shrinking in long-term depressives).
Link to article? Afaik there are no medications that stimulate growth of new neural tissue, only meds that inhibit the degredation of neurons.
The cessation of hippocampus shrinking with meds is proven and the growth of new neurons in mice/rats is proven.
The papers are available in Robert Sapolsky's Stanfard lectures on the neuroscience of depression, available on Youtbe
Well yeah in mice & rats, that i knew ^.^ Just figured I might've missed some important phase 4 paper, but I guess not.
On September 16 2011 21:56 arbitrageur wrote: (certain anti-depression medication promotes the growth of new neurons and is experimentally proven to reduce the amount of hippocampus shrinking in long-term depressives).
Link to article? Afaik there are no medications that stimulate growth of new neural tissue, only meds that inhibit the degredation of neurons.
The cessation of hippocampus shrinking with meds is proven and the growth of new neurons in mice/rats is proven.
The papers are available in Robert Sapolsky's Stanfard lectures on the neuroscience of depression, available on Youtbe
Well yeah in mice & rats, that i knew ^.^ Just figured I might've missed some important phase 4 paper, but I guess not.
On September 16 2011 21:56 arbitrageur wrote: (certain anti-depression medication promotes the growth of new neurons and is experimentally proven to reduce the amount of hippocampus shrinking in long-term depressives).
Link to article? Afaik there are no medications that stimulate growth of new neural tissue, only meds that inhibit the degredation of neurons.
The cessation of hippocampus shrinking with meds is proven and the growth of new neurons in mice/rats is proven.
The papers are available in Robert Sapolsky's Stanfard lectures on the neuroscience of depression, available on Youtbe
Well yeah in mice & rats, that i knew ^.^ Just figured I might've missed some important phase 4 paper, but I guess not.
What is phase 4?
When meds are actually on the market, and the general populace using the meds are monitored to discover previously unknown traits of the medication. (ie look mom no arms in the case of softenon, or the stimulation of suicide in depressed patients with most anti-depressants)
Because neuronal growth/degredation processes are long term alterations the likelihood of discovering this increases with time, ergo the assumption of phase 4.
That means i have a couple of autistic symptoms like alexithymia, SID and repetitive behavior.
My parents wanted me to go to a special school but my doctor said its best for my development to go to a normal school, turned out pretty well (some exceptions). But i still have trouble keeping my focus, talking to people.
Thats it about me, any questions feel free to PM me.
I have met some people who`ve been diagnosed with classic autism. Most of them posses zero social skill. but some of them seem just a bit weird.
I also have met people who where diagnosed ADD. A couple of them clearly had ADD but the most i met seemed like normal people. The best student in my class has ADD! So i clearly agree that ADD is overdiagnosed. My guess is they tried to get the diagnose because they like the drugs or medicine or they got diagnosed when they were very young (most wrong diagnoses happen then)
Short: When you meet someone with (severe) ADD, you`ll know. When you meet someone who claims he is diagnosed ADD but isnt obvious, be skeptic!
I've read through many posts here about drugs and medication and diagnoses. The thing about autism spectrum disorders (ASD) is that the divisions by which they are diagnosed and classified are still very much in flux.
The other thing to note is that, to date, there is only one intervention that has had any measured and proven success towards improvement. Applied Behavioral Analysis and Intensive Behavioral Intervention.
I agree with the OP, I really think aspergers shouldn't really be a disorder, it pretty much describes almost anyone who is introverted or with poor social skills. I used to live next door to an autistic girl, she had severe problems and obsessions, and it was clearly an impediment to a normal life.
But aspergers is much much milder problem, an it feels to me as ludicrous as labeling anyone who is ugly as having a disorder. Sure its a disadvantage in life, but I mean some people are just born with poor social skills, same as some are born ugly, I don't think we can start naming everyone who gets an unfortunate gene as having a disorder, and then giving them an excuse to escape real world responsibilities because of it.
I wouldn't be surprised if I got diagnosed with aspergers if I went to get tested, but honestly, I feel it really doesn't matter. Yeah I'm antisocial and have trouble understanding social nuances, but I much prefer to try work on my weaknesses than take drugs or use it as an excuse for any failures. Not everyone can be perfect, and I basically think if you're going to use aspergers as a blanket diagnosis you might aswell start making up disorders for kids with crooked teeth, or kids with acne, or kids with bad breathe, or kids with low intelligence etc.etc.etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if I got diagnosed with aspergers if I went to get tested, but honestly, I feel it really doesn't matter. Yeah I'm antisocial and have trouble understanding social nuances, but I much prefer to try work on my weaknesses than take drugs c.
Severe depression is mental illness, some times lethal. You cant look at it like it was black and white. There are alot of people who really cant shake depression off by going out and listening music. Infact, those people might bring some rope with em the next time they go outside...
The fact that normal person cannot understand this is understandable.
On September 16 2011 22:59 Hittomogasin wrote: Severe depression is mental illness, some times lethal. You cant look at it like it was black and white. There are alot of people who really cant shake depression off by going out and listening music. Infact, those people might bring some rope with em the next time they go outside...
The fact that normal person cannot understand this is understandable.
There is still a massive lack of public awareness about mental illness, as well as tons and tons of stigma attached.
Mental illness is no less relevant than a lung or heart illness, and those that suffer from it are looked down upon in a way that disgusts me. (I work in the health care industry)
On September 16 2011 22:13 rezzan wrote: friend of mine has assburglers,OP was in same class with him, and hes sick smart when he wants to (plus side about it) yeah also anti-social is common with assburglers.
so the last time i heard from him,or any of my friends heard from him. was like... 5 months ago hes never online he only spends his time at the Tv watching movies.
Sounds like myself and I'm pretty sure I don't have it.
On September 16 2011 22:59 Hittomogasin wrote: Severe depression is mental illness, some times lethal. You cant look at it like it was black and white. There are alot of people who really cant shake depression off by going out and listening music. Infact, those people might bring some rope with em the next time they go outside...
The fact that normal person cannot understand this is understandable.
There is still a massive lack of public awareness about mental illness, as well as tons and tons of stigma attached.
Mental illness is no less relevant than a lung or heart illness, and those that suffer from it are looked down upon in a way that disgusts me. (I work in the health care industry)
To add: just ask Stephen Fry if he thinks manic depression is a problem. The man is more brilliant most of us combined, yet he has had bad problems with hes mental state all his life, and only at hes later years he discovered he was suffering from bipolar disorder.
Pretty much all the teens who live in my old neighbourhood (this in UK) have Autistic Spectrum Disorders diagnosed, including my niece. I don't think there is anything at all wrong with them and neither does my partner who is a neuroscience graduate. It's a tough area in a part of UK underdeveloped after industry closing, many of these kids come from 1 parent families etc. I would definitely think that what passes as ASD nowadays was just called personality when I was a kid. It's an insult to real autism cases in a lot of ways. Now I'm sure ASDs exist but throwing a brick through a window because your Mum refused to renew your WoW account doesn't equal ASD.
For my own part I was a total fruitbat when I was younger but very gifted with reading, writing, maths etc. I'm shy but never felt this a problem more than we all have our fair share of. Pretty sure I could have got a government handout for ASD myself if such a thing was commonly known in the 80s. And although I am still weird it is in a good way and I never had problems attracting friends, people think it's cute I suppose. There's nothing wrong with eccentic personalities, and when people get older and out of peer groups it's the eccentric ones that become attractive in some ways as they are interesting. I'm a scientist now and I can tell you there are many freaks here, and they are the cool ones.
If I was tested when i was younger I would have been diagnosed with autism xD But I'm trying to and am getting better at social interaction, I can imagine a lot of people being mislabeled, and I would be f**king mad if I had been labeled because I can imagine myself back then using it as an excuse. They're basically telling people, your socially inept, don't even bother trying, Being misdiagnosed can have huge affects even if its not a life-threatening disease.
Normality is becoming tighter and everyone is strange in one way or another. And now it seems like most people could be diagnosed with something. The draft of the new DSM-V (diagnostics manual) has received critizism because even more people will fall under diagnosises than before. Many seem to believe the pharmaceutical industry is lobbying for this and is partly behind it but I haven't looked into it any more than that myself.
But of course autism can be quite serious and in need of treatment as well. It just seems like things are developing towards being not normal = being sick which is pretty disturbing also in terms of where society is heading. I think things can be a problem for someone without it needing a diagnosis or label, and there are ways to improve without it.
On September 17 2011 00:14 Sablar wrote: I agree that too much is being diagnosed.
Normality is becoming tighter and everyone is strange in one way or another, and now it seems like most people could be diagnosed with something. The draft of the new DSM-V (diagnostics manual) has revieved critizism because even more people will fall under diagnosis than before. Many seem to believe the pharmaceutical industry is lobbying for this and is partly behind it but I haven't looked into it any more than that myself.
But of course autism can be quite serious and in need of treatment as well. It just seems like things are developing towards being not normal = being sick which is pretty disturbing also in terms of where society is heading. I think things can be a problem for someone without it needing a diagnosis or label, and there are ways to improve without it.
It's not about labeling people as sick. It's about identifying children early on that will require special education in order to learn those behaviors that come naturally to most people. We take things like understanding facial expressions and sarcasm and jokes and appropriateness for granted. Kids in the ASD spectrum need intensive help to GET this stuff.
On September 16 2011 22:13 rezzan wrote: friend of mine has assburglers,OP was in same class with him, and hes sick smart when he wants to (plus side about it) yeah also anti-social is common with assburglers.
so the last time i heard from him,or any of my friends heard from him. was like... 5 months ago hes never online he only spends his time at the Tv watching movies.
Uhhh... what? I'm inclined to believe that you're just trolling or whatever. I highly doubt that this friend of yours was in my class, and your use of "assburglers" makes me think you're just being a douche. PM me the name of this friend if you really think you're right, but until then, please don't be intentionally obnoxious.
On September 16 2011 23:12 Zorkmid wrote: Dr Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang Theory is the classic Aspergers guy.
Yeah the writers even made him like trains which, from what i understand, seems to be pretty common among people with Aspengers. Since there are some people diagones with Aspergers here, can anyone comment on the train thing? I think that's a pretty intersting fascination to have. (Also a pretty weird quesiton to ask probably)
It probably is being used as a convenient diagnosis, similar to what ADHD is becoming (although I see that as worse because drugs are often prescribed unnecessarily for that I don't think they are for autism). I read an article a while ago, about how schools would push for children to be diagnosed with ADHD to diminish their own responsibility for the child's actions, so maybe Autism is taking the same route.
On September 17 2011 00:14 Sablar wrote: I agree that too much is being diagnosed.
Normality is becoming tighter and everyone is strange in one way or another, and now it seems like most people could be diagnosed with something. The draft of the new DSM-V (diagnostics manual) has revieved critizism because even more people will fall under diagnosis than before. Many seem to believe the pharmaceutical industry is lobbying for this and is partly behind it but I haven't looked into it any more than that myself.
But of course autism can be quite serious and in need of treatment as well. It just seems like things are developing towards being not normal = being sick which is pretty disturbing also in terms of where society is heading. I think things can be a problem for someone without it needing a diagnosis or label, and there are ways to improve without it.
It's not about labeling people as sick. It's about identifying children early on that will require special education in order to learn those behaviors that come naturally to most people. We take things like understanding facial expressions and sarcasm and jokes and appropriateness for granted. Kids in the ASD spectrum need intensive help to GET this stuff.
We're probably talking about different things. I'm thinking about 'mild' symptoms and more and more things being considered as a sickness. Autism in it's typical form includes a pretty obvious defiency in the ability to live a normal life. As long as you can live a fairly normal life with some problems (like we all have..) I just don't think it should be considered a sickness/disorder.
On September 16 2011 23:12 Zorkmid wrote: Dr Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang Theory is the classic Aspergers guy.
Yeah the writers even made him like trains which, from what i understand, seems to be pretty common among people with Aspengers. Since there are some people diagones with Aspergers here, can anyone comment on the train thing? I think that's a pretty intersting fascination to have. (Also a pretty weird quesiton to ask probably)
More like an stereotype of a narcissictic personality disorder.
My next door neighbor has autism, and I worked with an Autism clinic in North Carolina for a while. There are a lot of factors that sort of effect how autism shows up. Kids who get special help often turn out fine, still a little awkward, but with no real issues. I work with one of the kids i used to mentor or whatever at my synagogue now and if i didn't know about his condition already I would assume he was normal. Kids who have more severe cases and are mainstreamed is where problems arise. They do need special attention, its just a matter of how much and also the cost of special schooling or what-have-you. I think Autism is often over diagnosed, and the vaccine thing is stupid (vaccinate your kids, ya'll) , but it's something that needs to be looked at more closely in schools which unfortunately there is no budget for.
For the record on the trains thing- A lot of Autistic kids have something they really focus on. For my neighbor it was roller coasters.
There's no simple litmus test for autism and I'm sure there are cases where they just got the diagnosis wrong. That's psychology for you, especially when it is a spectrum disorder like autism which by its very nature IS a catch-all for many combinations of symptoms, which are probably produced by multiple underlying disorders.
On September 16 2011 23:12 Zorkmid wrote: Dr Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang Theory is the classic Aspergers guy.
Yeah the writers even made him like trains which, from what i understand, seems to be pretty common among people with Aspengers. Since there are some people diagones with Aspergers here, can anyone comment on the train thing? I think that's a pretty intersting fascination to have. (Also a pretty weird quesiton to ask probably)
More like an stereotype of a narcissictic personality disorder.
No, I read a really cool article in the NYT about just this. You're wrong.
I have mild autism, I find it extremely hard to look into peoples eyes and randomly zone into social awkwardness without warning that leaves an entire room quiet. No matter how long I've tried to correct the problems it won't fix itself even after years of attempting to look people straight in the eye it always feels strange.
I also focus on things overly so, some years I'm obsessed with different things like say philosophers where I read everyone from Hegel to Marx to Freud to Nietchze by the time I was 15. At 17 I was reading chess every single day and knew Bobby Fischer's 10 or so opening to mid lines for black and white by heart within a week. The obsessions were almost grit my teeth obsessive, like seriously strange and intense beyond words. This left me otherworldly with my peers until college where although I was still ahead literacy wise at least I could meet some challenges.
I believe autism exists on varied levels and that mild autism really does exist. I've never been able to rid myself after years of practice of being able to execute basic social skills and trying to calm myself down from over-reading or over-obsessing about certain things. To say I view as a disadvantage is laughable, socially I may lack but my friends refer to me today as "the prophet" or "the advisor" because of my intellectual skills although when I was young I was viewed as a strange and lone wolf.
On September 16 2011 21:24 Kickboxer wrote: Call me ignorant (and I'm sure you will) but I find it rather unusual how 80% of these disorders didn't exist five decades ago. Seems like their astronomic rise is directly proportional to the number of shrinks out there... reminds me of viruses and anti-virus companies.
Ok, some people absolutely do have severe mental problems, but your average quirky kid is just that. Feeding young children with chemistry and telling them they have all kinds of disorders doesn't sound terribly constructive.
They actually didn't exist 5 decades ago. Autism and asperger have been recently discovered, before they thought the children were just retarded.
I don't know about asperger and autism, but I can tell you from personal experience that you can treat moderate to severe depression with nothing but a good dose of martial arts (discipline), music and fresh air.
Oh boy, this is so wrong I don't know where to begin. Those all HELP treat depression,you can't treat severe depression with just those 3.
They were not recently dicovered, but in the past you could be diagnosed with autism only if you lacked any way of meaningful verbal communication. Nowadays even slight (compared to "real" autism) social retardation is often considered autism (on the autism spectrum, mostly diagnosed as Asperger's).
Yeah you're right. I should've said like the definition of autism has evolved a lot during the years. Our view on autism now and 50 years ago are worlds apart.
Our best guess is that they occur in about 30 to 40 of every 10,000 people. Because we now have trained a generation of professionals who know how to recognize them, and because we are now counting even very mild cases, we know of more cases than we did years ago. This raises the question: Is there an epidemic of new cases occurring (is the incidence rising), or does it just look like there is an epidemic because we are finding previously overlooked cases (no change in prevalence)? This question is widely debated by researchers and parents today. My best guess, and I want to make sure you know this is just a guess, is that because we are better at finding and accurately diagnosing these disorders, it just looks like an epidemic. If my guess is correct then the rise in newly diagnosed cases will level out in the next few years as we finish picking up the previously overlooked ones, and more completely identify the new ones. The truth of the matter is that at this time no one knows the answer for sure. However, there are several large studies underway which, so far, support my “guess” that there is no true epidemic.
I don't know if there's over diagnosis or not, but if you include the very mild cases there's just a ton of people with ASD.
the problem with this kind of thinking is that people might not take a real autism diagnosis as seriously. I think it is better to be over-diagnosed rather than under-diagnosed.
Autism is modern psychology's schizophrenia. Look at all the medical literature in the late 1800s and early 1900s, people were obsessed with schizophrenia, calling it the "mental plague of the modern world." It slowly went out of fashion to be doing research with it, and it was relegated to the back shelves of science. Nowadays we have autism, a "syndrome" that exists in the gaps of our knowledge regarding the inner workings of the human mind. It's as fashionable as schizophrenia ever was, and just as inane, other than functioning as scientific fodder for the production of PhD dissertations.
I dont know, where i go to school the only people who have autism are really different, its noticeable for sure. Maybe im jaded, but the statistic seems right to me.
On September 17 2011 07:07 BalancedBreakfast wrote: the problem with this kind of thinking is that people might not take a real autism diagnosis as seriously. I think it is better to be over-diagnosed rather than under-diagnosed.
That's why Asperger's is defined as "high-functioning autism". Many (most) people with Asperger's live normal lives, they just appear to be a little odd.
"low-functioning autism" are the type you are calling "real autism".
Autism at its core is a social impairment, so all degrees of social impairment have to be covered by it. Whether you don't make eye contact well or you can barely talk and when you do you stutter every word and can't pronounce half the words right and hold your hands at odd angles, you're autistic either way.
Autism has this stigma with it that you have to be a drooling retard slurring every word and walking with your hands at odd angles to be autistic. That really isn't true.
On September 17 2011 00:14 Sablar wrote: I agree that too much is being diagnosed.
Normality is becoming tighter and everyone is strange in one way or another, and now it seems like most people could be diagnosed with something. The draft of the new DSM-V (diagnostics manual) has revieved critizism because even more people will fall under diagnosis than before. Many seem to believe the pharmaceutical industry is lobbying for this and is partly behind it but I haven't looked into it any more than that myself.
But of course autism can be quite serious and in need of treatment as well. It just seems like things are developing towards being not normal = being sick which is pretty disturbing also in terms of where society is heading. I think things can be a problem for someone without it needing a diagnosis or label, and there are ways to improve without it.
It's not about labeling people as sick. It's about identifying children early on that will require special education in order to learn those behaviors that come naturally to most people. We take things like understanding facial expressions and sarcasm and jokes and appropriateness for granted. Kids in the ASD spectrum need intensive help to GET this stuff.
Exactly. If you have autism you aren't sick, and most medications won't do shit to help you. It's not like they're trying to sell you drugs or anything.
They're just trying to identify children for special programs that TEACH children how to act (because autistic children don't understand interaction without teaching usually whereas other children know it instinctively).
On September 17 2011 07:40 dapanman wrote: I once had a lawyer mutter to me under her breath during a hearing with school district officials, "I could get a turnip diagnosed with autism."
Realistically, I'd say most autistic children don't even need the diagnosis to get an IEP from school officials.
I wasn't even diagnosed until I was older and I still got an IEP for laptop use because my writing speed is like... indescribably awful.
They can just classify that as "retarded fine motor skills development" or something.
On September 17 2011 07:07 BalancedBreakfast wrote: the problem with this kind of thinking is that people might not take a real autism diagnosis as seriously. I think it is better to be over-diagnosed rather than under-diagnosed.
That's why Asperger's is defined as "high-functioning autism". Many (most) people with Asperger's live normal lives, they just appear to be a little odd.
"low-functioning autism" are the type you are calling "real autism".
Autism at its core is a social impairment, so all degrees of social impairment have to be covered by it. Whether you don't make eye contact well or you can barely talk and when you do you stutter every word and can't pronounce half the words right and hold your hands at odd angles, you're autistic either way.
Autism has this stigma with it that you have to be a drooling retard slurring every word and walking with your hands at odd angles to be autistic. That really isn't true.
On September 17 2011 00:14 Sablar wrote: I agree that too much is being diagnosed.
Normality is becoming tighter and everyone is strange in one way or another, and now it seems like most people could be diagnosed with something. The draft of the new DSM-V (diagnostics manual) has revieved critizism because even more people will fall under diagnosis than before. Many seem to believe the pharmaceutical industry is lobbying for this and is partly behind it but I haven't looked into it any more than that myself.
But of course autism can be quite serious and in need of treatment as well. It just seems like things are developing towards being not normal = being sick which is pretty disturbing also in terms of where society is heading. I think things can be a problem for someone without it needing a diagnosis or label, and there are ways to improve without it.
It's not about labeling people as sick. It's about identifying children early on that will require special education in order to learn those behaviors that come naturally to most people. We take things like understanding facial expressions and sarcasm and jokes and appropriateness for granted. Kids in the ASD spectrum need intensive help to GET this stuff.
Exactly. If you have autism you aren't sick, and most medications won't do shit to help you. It's not like they're trying to sell you drugs or anything.
They're just trying to identify children for special programs that TEACH children how to act (because autistic children don't understand interaction without teaching usually whereas other children know it instinctively).
So say in my case my social impairments are severe eye contact problems and having trouble keeping a conversation with only 1 person. I can speak very well to many people, in fact I get often encouraged by groups to do the speaking and when I do I have no problems making eye contact during speeches.
I totally agree with you sir. Look at the way you can write, it's awesome! From what you wrote, you seem like a cool dude. I feel that these conditions might not be over diagnosed, but perhaps overemphasized. (I apparently have add btw). I really don't feel like its a minus for me, it lets me do a ton of stuff with a ton of energy! idk, maybe im crazy, but I think that shit is an advantage lol
On September 17 2011 07:25 lowercase wrote: Autism is modern psychology's schizophrenia. Look at all the medical literature in the late 1800s and early 1900s, people were obsessed with schizophrenia, calling it the "mental plague of the modern world." It slowly went out of fashion to be doing research with it, and it was relegated to the back shelves of science. Nowadays we have autism, a "syndrome" that exists in the gaps of our knowledge regarding the inner workings of the human mind. It's as fashionable as schizophrenia ever was, and just as inane, other than functioning as scientific fodder for the production of PhD dissertations.
Whitch is remarkable. It has ushered people like Einstein and Newton into unimaginable brilliance.
On September 17 2011 02:17 forgottendreams wrote: I have mild autism, I find it extremely hard to look into peoples eyes and randomly zone into social awkwardness without warning that leaves an entire room quiet. No matter how long I've tried to correct the problems it won't fix itself even after years of attempting to look people straight in the eye it always feels strange.
I also focus on things overly so, some years I'm obsessed with different things like say philosophers where I read everyone from Hegel to Marx to Freud to Nietchze by the time I was 15. At 17 I was reading chess every single day and knew Bobby Fischer's 10 or so opening to mid lines for black and white by heart within a week. The obsessions were almost grit my teeth obsessive, like seriously strange and intense beyond words. This left me otherworldly with my peers until college where although I was still ahead literacy wise at least I could meet some challenges.
I believe autism exists on varied levels and that mild autism really does exist. I've never been able to rid myself after years of practice of being able to execute basic social skills and trying to calm myself down from over-reading or over-obsessing about certain things. To say I view as a disadvantage is laughable, socially I may lack but my friends refer to me today as "the prophet" or "the advisor" because of my intellectual skills although when I was young I was viewed as a strange and lone wolf.
I think I could have been diagnosed with something. I just doubt the fact that it would help me. I think that many of my coping skills wouldn't have existed if I went through some kind of special education and blamed my shortcomings on a diagnosis indead of trying to work past it.
I think that abnormality should be praised. It would be awesome.
On September 17 2011 07:25 lowercase wrote: Autism is modern psychology's schizophrenia. Look at all the medical literature in the late 1800s and early 1900s, people were obsessed with schizophrenia, calling it the "mental plague of the modern world." It slowly went out of fashion to be doing research with it, and it was relegated to the back shelves of science. Nowadays we have autism, a "syndrome" that exists in the gaps of our knowledge regarding the inner workings of the human mind. It's as fashionable as schizophrenia ever was, and just as inane, other than functioning as scientific fodder for the production of PhD dissertations.
Whitch is remarkable. It has ushered people like Einstein and Newton into unimaginable brilliance.
What? Schizophrenia is probably the most validated diagnosis. The strong heredity and the severity of psychosis makes it pretty obvious.
edit. and of course the people previously mentioned weren't afflicted.
On September 17 2011 07:25 lowercase wrote: Autism is modern psychology's schizophrenia. Look at all the medical literature in the late 1800s and early 1900s, people were obsessed with schizophrenia, calling it the "mental plague of the modern world." It slowly went out of fashion to be doing research with it, and it was relegated to the back shelves of science. Nowadays we have autism, a "syndrome" that exists in the gaps of our knowledge regarding the inner workings of the human mind. It's as fashionable as schizophrenia ever was, and just as inane, other than functioning as scientific fodder for the production of PhD dissertations.
Whitch is remarkable. It has ushered people like Einstein and Newton into unimaginable brilliance.
What? Schizophrenia is probably the most validated diagnosis. The strong heredity and the severity of psychosis makes it pretty obvious.
edit. and of course the people previously mentioned weren't afflicted.
I wasnt talking about schizophrenia, but rather the "fashion" argument of autism.
I meant, that autism as fashion and "the thing to study" is remarkable. It has ushered people like Einstein and Newton into unimaginable brilliance, so instead of being just a fashion and the thing that doctors are worried about, we got mental disease in fashion thats potential for creating and brilliance we cannot even begin to imagine. Quite literally.
Not only are the studies going to help those with severe cases of autism, we may figure out its positive effects and how to artificially generate them. This might lead to new atomic bomb, or it could lead into working theory of everything. I wouldnt mind having new Mozarts or Van Goghs among us either.
EPT
