EPTIraq & Syrian Civil Wars - Page 394
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Please guys, stay on topic. This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14016 Posts
On April 05 2017 14:16 lastpuritan wrote: Is there an unwritten law somewhere on this earth that grants every ethnicity a nation? Or is this your imperial mind sickens you with a corrupt logic that makes you think supporting an uprising would be a good policy. This attitude needs to end, from individual levels, to international grounds. It's nothing but next level map designing that people cursed GB for almost a century, what makes you think yours would work? The Law of self determination that is the foundation for how the UN works? My Imperial mind would demand that they unify into a single state not balkanize into a series of mini states. GB didn't give every ethnicity a nation they thought they could simple create nations out of thin air bringing them together. Nothing about your argument makes sense or is real. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14016 Posts
On April 05 2017 13:33 Wrath wrote: Fuck the fact that the country is a sectarian based one. Fuck the fact that the country is not independent but merely a Governorate follows Iran. Fuck the fact that secret prisons, death squads are the same but with different loyalties and affiliations Fuck the fact that the country is on the brake of breaking into two states. But hey, we got Saddam hang. That what matters. Sometimes, I just wonder why we are even arguing. The country is a muslim country with a split three ways not two. The sunnies and the shiities are the same as old time prodestants and catholics. Its a democratically elected country that is young and needs support from like minded countries. I don't know where you get that there are more secret prisons and death squads but hey why should your arguments be based in anything resembling facts or reason at this point. You're the guy thats supporting the oppressive dictator that gasses his own people in this argument. Hes no different then Mao, pol pot, stalin, and assad at this point. If you think thats reasonable then you shouldn't be arguing with anyone. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
Democratically elected my ass. It is designed in a way to ensure Shiite supremacy over the Arabian region. What three ways are you talking about when one of them is nearly obliterated under the accusation of ISIS affiliation? Iraq is divided between Iraq - Shiite ruled country and Iraq-Kurdistan. Regarding the secret prisons and death squads, here are some actions by the "liberators": https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/02/16/iraq-looting-destruction-forces-fighting-isis http://fpif.org/if-aleppo-was-a-crime-against-humanity-isnt-mosul/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20161112-iraq-army-crushes-child-under-a-tank-amidst-war-crimes-allegations/ http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/mideast-crisis-iraq-militias/ https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/11/iraq-campaign-mass-murders-sunni-prisoners http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/secret-iraqi-government-prison-was-worse-than-abu-ghraib-1957302.html http://metro.co.uk/2010/04/28/human-rights-watch-reports-of-torture-at-the-muthanna-airport-baghdad-271416/ https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-03/forces-tied-to-iraqi-government-accused-of-sectarian-cleansing http://www.rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/12042016 Iraq died in 2003. What is there now is nothing more than mafias swearing loyalty to Iran ruling a wasteland that was once called Iraq. | ||
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mdb
Bulgaria4059 Posts
On April 05 2017 19:00 Wrath wrote: And how the heck would the rebels have access to chemical weapons? The best thing they can do is produce something with house hold items. it will never be effective as the Sarin gas which was used this time. https://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n08/seymour-m-hersh/the-red-line-and-the-rat-line | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18072 Posts
On April 06 2017 00:56 mdb wrote: https://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n08/seymour-m-hersh/the-red-line-and-the-rat-line It's definitely possible to produce Sarin, but as the very first comment states, it's a lot harder than the article author seems to imply. I tend to agree with the first comment that this is rather shakey ground, and it just makes far more sense to this be regime actions. Particularly stupid regime actions, but regime actions all the same. | ||
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ImFromPortugal
Portugal1368 Posts
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ImFromPortugal
Portugal1368 Posts
On April 05 2017 12:41 Sermokala wrote: No those WMD's were there the whole time from when Saddam used them to gas the kurds after we sold them to him. You just don't know the real reason why we went into Iraq and it was because of Nuclear weapons. The Syrians have chemical weapons that they use so your argument is moot about it being the same thing. A good start would be supporting the kurds to create a country because they're a large ethnic group in the area that doesn't have their own country while everyone around them does. Russia is clearly a more pressing concern to a Kurdish nation if you'd look at a map then all the nations that would lose a region that gives them trouble (other then Iran but Iran hasn't screwed with them). Iran has their problems with Kurds as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–PJAK_conflict | ||
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Sermokala
United States14016 Posts
On April 05 2017 23:40 Wrath wrote: So saying that the country was independent and much more stable while it was Saddam rule than it is today I'm now supporting oppressive dictators like Assad and the rest? Democratically elected my ass. It is designed in a way to ensure Shiite supremacy over the Arabian region. What three ways are you talking about when one of them is nearly obliterated under the accusation of ISIS affiliation? Iraq is divided between Iraq - Shiite ruled country and Iraq-Kurdistan. Regarding the secret prisons and death squads, here are some actions by the "liberators": https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/02/16/iraq-looting-destruction-forces-fighting-isis http://fpif.org/if-aleppo-was-a-crime-against-humanity-isnt-mosul/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20161112-iraq-army-crushes-child-under-a-tank-amidst-war-crimes-allegations/ http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/mideast-crisis-iraq-militias/ https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/11/iraq-campaign-mass-murders-sunni-prisoners http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/secret-iraqi-government-prison-was-worse-than-abu-ghraib-1957302.html http://metro.co.uk/2010/04/28/human-rights-watch-reports-of-torture-at-the-muthanna-airport-baghdad-271416/ https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-03/forces-tied-to-iraqi-government-accused-of-sectarian-cleansing http://www.rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/12042016 Iraq died in 2003. What is there now is nothing more than mafias swearing loyalty to Iran ruling a wasteland that was once called Iraq. You are when you question the only alternative to Saddam being a bad thing. Do you think the world would have just sat by while america makes Iraq the 51th state for a generation like we should have and turned it into a modern state? Do you think the American populace would be able to support violently putting down rebellions? Democracies are designed to have the majority have power. How you don't understand how democracy works I don't even want to think about. If there was just the Iraq shiite and kurdish-shiite there wouldn't have been a civil war in the country and ISIS wouldn't have had such an easy time rolling over half the nation. There are shockingly enough sunnies in the nation considering thats where saddam had his power base and was able to opress the majority of the nation from. Holy shit religiously motivated militia and poorly trained troops are going to do stupid things and commit war crimes against people they're fighting from the other religion? what a brand new revelation that everyone saw coming from the entirety of human history. Iraq is a young democratically elected nation that is culturally in the enlightenment age and is threatened by a caliphate next door that declared a holy war against them. For what they're facing they're actually doing pretty good I'd say. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Maybe "the only alternative to Saddam" being a bad thing is questioned because in this case there is no clear indication that the alternative is better, or as good, at all. (Though with Wrath there is never any clear indication that there is any rhyme or reason to what he supports, so I can't say I'm arguing on behalf of his position because I simply can't parse it.) | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
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Wrath
3174 Posts
You are when you question the only alternative to Saddam being a bad thing. Do you think the world would have just sat by while america makes Iraq the 51th state for a generation like we should have and turned it into a modern state? Do you think the American populace would be able to support violently putting down rebellions? Why is it so necessary to have an alternative for Saddam? Is it because he is a dictator? If so, what is stopping you so far from removing Assad? Who gave you authority to spread democracy by invading countries and bring it to ruin? If there was just the Iraq shiite and kurdish-shiite there wouldn't have been a civil war in the country and ISIS wouldn't have had such an easy time rolling over half the nation. There are shockingly enough sunnies in the nation considering thats where saddam had his power base and was able to opress the majority of the nation from. OK, here are some info about Iraq: It was a major Sunni popluation country. Saddam was a secular completely non-religious. His loyalty was for Iraq and his party "Ba'ath" (Same party that Assad rule). Saddam never gave a fuck whether it was Sunni Arab, Kurd or Shiite Arab. You dare stand against me, you die, you stand by me, you live. The 2003 Invasion came, at that time, there was a deal with the greatest religious Shiite Imam Al-Sistani to give an order that it is completely prohibited and "Haram" to fight the Invasion. After the fall of Baghdad, the Al-Qaeda rose up and other national resistance movements. Interestingly, there were only Arab Sunnis. Kurds and Shiite Arabs did not fought Americans after Invasion. In 2006, US promised some local Sunni Arab tribes that will make them share the government and give them a lot of money in exchange they fight Al-Qaeda (which changed its name to Islamic Iraq State) and other movements. They were very successful and all movements died and the survivors went to hide in the desert. Later, those local tribes forces that were trained and equipped to fight the resistance movements and Al-Qaeda no longer needed, Iraqi government started to assassinate them, together with revenge acts from those who fled to the desert. They were too weak to have any role later on. Iraq became a bit safer than before and Shiite government ruled. Sunnis were exhausted after those years of fighting. They did not have any power to fight for anything later on. In 2012, influenced by the Arab spring, Sunni Provinces started protesting against bad services and anti-terrorism laws that felt targeting them specifically. Protests later escalated and ended in violent. This gave the momentum for ISIS to come back from Syria and use the momentum within the Sunni Arabs in Iraq and take over half of the nation. Holy shit religiously motivated militia and poorly trained troops are going to do stupid things and commit war crimes against people they're fighting from the other religion? what a brand new revelation that everyone saw coming from the entirety of human history. Iraq is a young democratically elected nation that is culturally in the enlightenment age and is threatened by a caliphate next door that declared a holy war against them. For what they're facing they're actually doing pretty good I'd say. When those religiously motivated militia openly state that they serve Iran not Iraq, when they Iraqi government openly recognize them as official government force and completely protect its members from any law suits against them. Those do not become "stupid things" anymore. Stupid things would be like fighting with citizens or stealing stuff from locals. Not running over a kid with a Tank or burning bodies or displacing people and prevent them from returning to their homes. All that under the protection of the government. Again, nobody asked you to spread "Democracy". Iraq is not a fucking lab rat for your experiments. Iraq has much older history than your few hundreds of years US. Iraq in the 50s was more advanced than the current Iraq, for the sake of your Democracy, you fucked up the country for generations for such a petty reason. And finally, they are doing pretty shit, without the collation air strikes and complete supervision and training from other nations and many Iranian volunteers from the IRGC, Baghdad would have fallen in 2014, or at best, they would not have taken back a single city from ISIS. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
I respect the desire for stability and to end the violence. Seeking that stability in violent, repressive dictators only seems viable because there are no good options. But that seems like the one that costs us(the West) the least. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On April 06 2017 05:44 LegalLord wrote: I think of it as an unstable equilibrium. "Stable" in the sense that the current status quo is so much better than what happens if you push too hard and make everything go to shit. Stable as: Iraqis felt they were Iraqis, not Sunnis, Kurds, Shiite. A Shiite could go to Anbar without feeling any threat, A Sunni could go to the south the same. Economy was not at best due to sanctions but still. Education was very good in Iraq. All that went in a complete shit hole after 2003 because "Democracy". | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 06 2017 05:59 Wrath wrote: Stable as: Iraqis felt they were Iraqis, not Sunnis, Kurds, Shiite. A Shiite could go to Anbar without feeling any threat, A Sunni could go to the south the same. Economy was not at best due to sanctions but still. Education was very good in Iraq. All that went in a complete shit hole after 2003 because "Democracy". Except that isn’t true. They never felt like Iraqis. Iraq is a made up nation created by Western meddling in the Middle East. Specifically the British in the 1920. They never chose to be a nation, like England or France. They have no sense of nationality or loyalty. That is why they go by tribal names to this day. The violence saw after the invasion was caused by the brutal rule of Saddam and his part, which heavily favored his own tribe. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On April 06 2017 06:03 Plansix wrote: Except that isn’t true. They never felt like Iraqis. Iraq is a made up nation created by Western meddling in the Middle East. Specifically the British in the 1920. They never chose to be a nation, like England or France. They have no sense of nationality or loyalty. That is why they go by tribal names to this day. The violence saw after the invasion was caused by the brutal rule of Saddam and his part, which heavily favored his own tribe. If you are talking about the WWI result and dividing the left over of Ottoman empire, then that implies on all the Arab world. It is true that in the middle east in general tribes loyalty was strong, but it was not sectarian that would result on killing on identity like it is now. After about 100 years of Ottoman empire fall, people started to have some loyalty to the nation they were born within. It is true that Saddam was a dictator, not defending that, if there was a revolt against him like the current one in Syria things would have been different. But what happened is that a nation that was "stable", no revolt or anything and suddenly it is under occupation for a never found WMDs until recently which makes it even more suspicious. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Philoctetes
Netherlands77 Posts
That doesn't make the US, and all the 'allies' that blindly followed Bush, any less guilty. But civil wars in Iraq and Syria were bound to happen. Same will be the case for Saudi Arabia or any other repressive regime. Sooner or later, it will collapse, and then everyone will lash out at anyone and strongmen will try to become the new dictator. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
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