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Please guys, stay on topic.
This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria. |
On November 25 2015 03:10 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 02:53 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 02:36 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 01:38 oneofthem wrote:On November 25 2015 01:34 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 01:29 oneofthem wrote:
it's fairly obvious that turkey was primarily dissatisfied with russian intervention in syria, not in turkey. this was just an opportunity to do some firefights. this provocative stance is no good.
as i said before, little dogs bark the loudest. So how did Turkey make that Russian pilot violate their airspace, despite clearly stating them that the next incursion would be met by force? Russia called their bluff and lost. this is like shooting down jay walkers after ignoring them forever. both disproportionate and disruptive. Its like shooting someone who repeatedly trespasses in your yard with a missile strapped to his back. It could be done more tactfully but international law allows it. Going after and shooting at an aircraft that is still in your airspace is understandable if it doesn't want to leave. But following an aircraft that was in your airspace for under 10sec into another country (many km away from your own border) and shooting it down is wrong whichever way you look at it. Do you think the US never violated Iran's airspace during their war in Iraq? We don't know when Turkey engaged the Russian plane. They started warnings well before it reached the Turkish border so it is possible they engaged while it was in Turkish airspace. As for your other comment. There was no need for the aircraft to enter Turkish space, It was warned repeatedly and following previous incidents Turkey summoned the Russian ambassador and told him the next incursion would be met with force. If things transpired as Turkey claims then they were entirely within their right to shoot the plane down. The truth might come from another nations radar if they picked it up or else the fighters blackbox flight data. However if that shows Turkey in the right I ofc expect Russia to never release it. Maybe I should jog your memory a bit about some reactions when a Turkish aircraft was shot down for violating Syrian airspace: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872
The article mentions nothing about warnings being given. A rather important distinction. If it was warned and resumed regardless then my reaction to that is the same as now, you had it coming.
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On November 25 2015 03:14 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 01:38 oneofthem wrote:On November 25 2015 01:34 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 01:29 oneofthem wrote:
it's fairly obvious that turkey was primarily dissatisfied with russian intervention in syria, not in turkey. this was just an opportunity to do some firefights. this provocative stance is no good.
as i said before, little dogs bark the loudest. So how did Turkey make that Russian pilot violate their airspace, despite clearly stating them that the next incursion would be met by force? Russia called their bluff and lost. this is like shooting down jay walkers after ignoring them forever. both disproportionate and disruptive. Its like shooting someone who repeatedly trespasses in your yard with a missile strapped to his back. It could be done more tactfully but international law allows it. It's more like a confused grandpa running through the house without shorts again. Pretty awkward and you tell him that it's not socially acceptable, but you don't take him to the backyard and beat him up
Is grandpa wielding a loaded shotgun?
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On November 25 2015 03:14 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 03:10 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 02:53 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 02:36 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 01:38 oneofthem wrote:On November 25 2015 01:34 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 01:29 oneofthem wrote:
it's fairly obvious that turkey was primarily dissatisfied with russian intervention in syria, not in turkey. this was just an opportunity to do some firefights. this provocative stance is no good.
as i said before, little dogs bark the loudest. So how did Turkey make that Russian pilot violate their airspace, despite clearly stating them that the next incursion would be met by force? Russia called their bluff and lost. this is like shooting down jay walkers after ignoring them forever. both disproportionate and disruptive. Its like shooting someone who repeatedly trespasses in your yard with a missile strapped to his back. It could be done more tactfully but international law allows it. Going after and shooting at an aircraft that is still in your airspace is understandable if it doesn't want to leave. But following an aircraft that was in your airspace for under 10sec into another country (many km away from your own border) and shooting it down is wrong whichever way you look at it. Do you think the US never violated Iran's airspace during their war in Iraq? We don't know when Turkey engaged the Russian plane. They started warnings well before it reached the Turkish border so it is possible they engaged while it was in Turkish airspace. As for your other comment. There was no need for the aircraft to enter Turkish space, It was warned repeatedly and following previous incidents Turkey summoned the Russian ambassador and told him the next incursion would be met with force. If things transpired as Turkey claims then they were entirely within their right to shoot the plane down. The truth might come from another nations radar if they picked it up or else the fighters blackbox flight data. However if that shows Turkey in the right I ofc expect Russia to never release it. Maybe I should jog your memory a bit about some reactions when a Turkish aircraft was shot down for violating Syrian airspace: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872 The article mentions nothing about warnings being given. A rather important distinction. If it was warned and resumed regardless then my reaction to that is the same as now, you had it coming.
Why did you ommit Erdogans words out of your reply. Here, I'll type it out again for you, and bold it.
"A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack," he said.
hint: pay close attention to the words 'short term border violation' and 'can never be a pretext'
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On November 25 2015 03:15 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 03:14 Nyxisto wrote:On November 25 2015 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 01:38 oneofthem wrote:On November 25 2015 01:34 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 01:29 oneofthem wrote:
it's fairly obvious that turkey was primarily dissatisfied with russian intervention in syria, not in turkey. this was just an opportunity to do some firefights. this provocative stance is no good.
as i said before, little dogs bark the loudest. So how did Turkey make that Russian pilot violate their airspace, despite clearly stating them that the next incursion would be met by force? Russia called their bluff and lost. this is like shooting down jay walkers after ignoring them forever. both disproportionate and disruptive. Its like shooting someone who repeatedly trespasses in your yard with a missile strapped to his back. It could be done more tactfully but international law allows it. It's more like a confused grandpa running through the house without shorts again. Pretty awkward and you tell him that it's not socially acceptable, but you don't take him to the backyard and beat him up Is grandpa wielding a loaded shotgun?
more like a water pistol, what's a single aircraft going to do to Turkey? They know it's just muscle flexing.
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United States43510 Posts
Perhaps we should have a few minutes to absorb the news of the hypocrisy of a politician.
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On November 25 2015 03:16 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 03:14 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 03:10 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 02:53 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 02:36 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 01:38 oneofthem wrote:On November 25 2015 01:34 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 01:29 oneofthem wrote:
it's fairly obvious that turkey was primarily dissatisfied with russian intervention in syria, not in turkey. this was just an opportunity to do some firefights. this provocative stance is no good.
as i said before, little dogs bark the loudest. So how did Turkey make that Russian pilot violate their airspace, despite clearly stating them that the next incursion would be met by force? Russia called their bluff and lost. this is like shooting down jay walkers after ignoring them forever. both disproportionate and disruptive. Its like shooting someone who repeatedly trespasses in your yard with a missile strapped to his back. It could be done more tactfully but international law allows it. Going after and shooting at an aircraft that is still in your airspace is understandable if it doesn't want to leave. But following an aircraft that was in your airspace for under 10sec into another country (many km away from your own border) and shooting it down is wrong whichever way you look at it. Do you think the US never violated Iran's airspace during their war in Iraq? We don't know when Turkey engaged the Russian plane. They started warnings well before it reached the Turkish border so it is possible they engaged while it was in Turkish airspace. As for your other comment. There was no need for the aircraft to enter Turkish space, It was warned repeatedly and following previous incidents Turkey summoned the Russian ambassador and told him the next incursion would be met with force. If things transpired as Turkey claims then they were entirely within their right to shoot the plane down. The truth might come from another nations radar if they picked it up or else the fighters blackbox flight data. However if that shows Turkey in the right I ofc expect Russia to never release it. Maybe I should jog your memory a bit about some reactions when a Turkish aircraft was shot down for violating Syrian airspace: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872 The article mentions nothing about warnings being given. A rather important distinction. If it was warned and resumed regardless then my reaction to that is the same as now, you had it coming. Why did you ommit Erdogans words out of your reply. Here, I'll type it out again for you, and bold it. "A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack," he said. hint: pay close attention to the words 'short term border violation' and 'can never be a pretext'
I am pretty sure that only applies for one time violations and not constantly sending armed aircraft over a nation's airspace.
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On November 25 2015 03:16 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 03:14 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 03:10 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 02:53 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 02:36 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 01:38 oneofthem wrote:On November 25 2015 01:34 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 01:29 oneofthem wrote:
it's fairly obvious that turkey was primarily dissatisfied with russian intervention in syria, not in turkey. this was just an opportunity to do some firefights. this provocative stance is no good.
as i said before, little dogs bark the loudest. So how did Turkey make that Russian pilot violate their airspace, despite clearly stating them that the next incursion would be met by force? Russia called their bluff and lost. this is like shooting down jay walkers after ignoring them forever. both disproportionate and disruptive. Its like shooting someone who repeatedly trespasses in your yard with a missile strapped to his back. It could be done more tactfully but international law allows it. Going after and shooting at an aircraft that is still in your airspace is understandable if it doesn't want to leave. But following an aircraft that was in your airspace for under 10sec into another country (many km away from your own border) and shooting it down is wrong whichever way you look at it. Do you think the US never violated Iran's airspace during their war in Iraq? We don't know when Turkey engaged the Russian plane. They started warnings well before it reached the Turkish border so it is possible they engaged while it was in Turkish airspace. As for your other comment. There was no need for the aircraft to enter Turkish space, It was warned repeatedly and following previous incidents Turkey summoned the Russian ambassador and told him the next incursion would be met with force. If things transpired as Turkey claims then they were entirely within their right to shoot the plane down. The truth might come from another nations radar if they picked it up or else the fighters blackbox flight data. However if that shows Turkey in the right I ofc expect Russia to never release it. Maybe I should jog your memory a bit about some reactions when a Turkish aircraft was shot down for violating Syrian airspace: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872 The article mentions nothing about warnings being given. A rather important distinction. If it was warned and resumed regardless then my reaction to that is the same as now, you had it coming. Why did you ommit Erdogans words out of your reply. Here, I'll type it out again for you, and bold it. "A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack," he said. hint: pay close attention to the words 'short term border violation' and 'can never be a pretext'
Russia repeatedly violates airspace
Turkey tells the Russian ambassador next time will be met with force
Russia repeats airspace violation
My point remains the same.
This is not an isolated incident.
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On November 25 2015 03:22 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 03:16 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 03:14 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 03:10 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 02:53 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 02:36 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 01:38 oneofthem wrote:On November 25 2015 01:34 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 01:29 oneofthem wrote:
it's fairly obvious that turkey was primarily dissatisfied with russian intervention in syria, not in turkey. this was just an opportunity to do some firefights. this provocative stance is no good.
as i said before, little dogs bark the loudest. So how did Turkey make that Russian pilot violate their airspace, despite clearly stating them that the next incursion would be met by force? Russia called their bluff and lost. this is like shooting down jay walkers after ignoring them forever. both disproportionate and disruptive. Its like shooting someone who repeatedly trespasses in your yard with a missile strapped to his back. It could be done more tactfully but international law allows it. Going after and shooting at an aircraft that is still in your airspace is understandable if it doesn't want to leave. But following an aircraft that was in your airspace for under 10sec into another country (many km away from your own border) and shooting it down is wrong whichever way you look at it. Do you think the US never violated Iran's airspace during their war in Iraq? We don't know when Turkey engaged the Russian plane. They started warnings well before it reached the Turkish border so it is possible they engaged while it was in Turkish airspace. As for your other comment. There was no need for the aircraft to enter Turkish space, It was warned repeatedly and following previous incidents Turkey summoned the Russian ambassador and told him the next incursion would be met with force. If things transpired as Turkey claims then they were entirely within their right to shoot the plane down. The truth might come from another nations radar if they picked it up or else the fighters blackbox flight data. However if that shows Turkey in the right I ofc expect Russia to never release it. Maybe I should jog your memory a bit about some reactions when a Turkish aircraft was shot down for violating Syrian airspace: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872 The article mentions nothing about warnings being given. A rather important distinction. If it was warned and resumed regardless then my reaction to that is the same as now, you had it coming. Why did you ommit Erdogans words out of your reply. Here, I'll type it out again for you, and bold it. "A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack," he said. hint: pay close attention to the words 'short term border violation' and 'can never be a pretext' Russia repeatedly violates airspace Turkey tells the Russian ambassador next time will be met with force Russia repeats airspace violation My point remains the same. This is not an isolated incident.
Would you like to estimate how often Turkey violated Greece airspace in the last year alone? Around 2000 times, yeah you read that right. Unfortunately there (again) won't be a backlash for Turkey. They got away with a lot of shit during that war, from boosting islamic nutjobs in Syria to fueling ethnic conflict within Turkey, shooting the russian plane down all the while they are busy to change the once secular Turkey into another state dominated by islam.
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On November 25 2015 03:45 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 03:22 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 03:16 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 03:14 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 03:10 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 02:53 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 02:36 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 01:38 oneofthem wrote:On November 25 2015 01:34 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]
So how did Turkey make that Russian pilot violate their airspace, despite clearly stating them that the next incursion would be met by force?
Russia called their bluff and lost. this is like shooting down jay walkers after ignoring them forever. both disproportionate and disruptive. Its like shooting someone who repeatedly trespasses in your yard with a missile strapped to his back. It could be done more tactfully but international law allows it. Going after and shooting at an aircraft that is still in your airspace is understandable if it doesn't want to leave. But following an aircraft that was in your airspace for under 10sec into another country (many km away from your own border) and shooting it down is wrong whichever way you look at it. Do you think the US never violated Iran's airspace during their war in Iraq? We don't know when Turkey engaged the Russian plane. They started warnings well before it reached the Turkish border so it is possible they engaged while it was in Turkish airspace. As for your other comment. There was no need for the aircraft to enter Turkish space, It was warned repeatedly and following previous incidents Turkey summoned the Russian ambassador and told him the next incursion would be met with force. If things transpired as Turkey claims then they were entirely within their right to shoot the plane down. The truth might come from another nations radar if they picked it up or else the fighters blackbox flight data. However if that shows Turkey in the right I ofc expect Russia to never release it. Maybe I should jog your memory a bit about some reactions when a Turkish aircraft was shot down for violating Syrian airspace: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872 The article mentions nothing about warnings being given. A rather important distinction. If it was warned and resumed regardless then my reaction to that is the same as now, you had it coming. Why did you ommit Erdogans words out of your reply. Here, I'll type it out again for you, and bold it. "A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack," he said. hint: pay close attention to the words 'short term border violation' and 'can never be a pretext' Russia repeatedly violates airspace Turkey tells the Russian ambassador next time will be met with force Russia repeats airspace violation My point remains the same. This is not an isolated incident. Would you like to estimate how often Turkey violated Greece airspace in the last year alone? Around 2000 times, yeah you read that right. Unfortunately there (again) won't be a backlash for Turkey. They got away with a lot of shit during that war, from boosting islamic nutjobs in Syria to fueling ethnic conflict within Turkey, shooting the russian plane down all the while they are busy to change the once secular Turkey into another state dominated by islam.
Did I make any statements about the Turkish/Greek situation because I wasn't aware I made any.
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On November 25 2015 03:10 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 02:53 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 02:36 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 01:38 oneofthem wrote:On November 25 2015 01:34 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 01:29 oneofthem wrote:
it's fairly obvious that turkey was primarily dissatisfied with russian intervention in syria, not in turkey. this was just an opportunity to do some firefights. this provocative stance is no good.
as i said before, little dogs bark the loudest. So how did Turkey make that Russian pilot violate their airspace, despite clearly stating them that the next incursion would be met by force? Russia called their bluff and lost. this is like shooting down jay walkers after ignoring them forever. both disproportionate and disruptive. Its like shooting someone who repeatedly trespasses in your yard with a missile strapped to his back. It could be done more tactfully but international law allows it. Going after and shooting at an aircraft that is still in your airspace is understandable if it doesn't want to leave. But following an aircraft that was in your airspace for under 10sec into another country (many km away from your own border) and shooting it down is wrong whichever way you look at it. Do you think the US never violated Iran's airspace during their war in Iraq? We don't know when Turkey engaged the Russian plane. They started warnings well before it reached the Turkish border so it is possible they engaged while it was in Turkish airspace. As for your other comment. There was no need for the aircraft to enter Turkish space, It was warned repeatedly and following previous incidents Turkey summoned the Russian ambassador and told him the next incursion would be met with force. If things transpired as Turkey claims then they were entirely within their right to shoot the plane down. The truth might come from another nations radar if they picked it up or else the fighters blackbox flight data. However if that shows Turkey in the right I ofc expect Russia to never release it. Maybe I should jog your memory a bit about some reactions when a Turkish aircraft was shot down for violating Syrian airspace: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872Show nested quote +Mr Erdogan spoke of Turkey's "rage" at the decision to shoot down the F-4 Phantom on 22 June and described Syria as a "clear and present threat".
"A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack," he said. The Turkish jet was on a training flight, testing Turkey's radars in the eastern Mediterranean, he said. Show nested quote +In a statement, the alliance's 28 members said the shooting down of the plane was "unacceptable" and they stood together with Turkey "in the spirit of strong solidarity".
Nato Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said: "It is another example of the Syrian authorities' disregard for international norms. Nato allies will remain seized of developments."
Earlier, in a letter to the UN Security Council, Turkey described the shooting down of its reconnaissance plane as a "hostile act" and "a serious threat to peace and security in the region".
You realize you're proving the point, yes? If you're implying Turkey was in the wrong then, they're obviously in the right now.
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@Gorsameth
that rhetoric of your is bullshit and you know it. you can not shoot down a plane in another country even if it passed through yours. that's an act of war under international law; lucky it happened on Syria's soil who is already at war right? ...
russians were bombing FSA, turkmen or whatever militias you have there, which were supported by Turkey. so instead of looking at how their terrorist allies are getting bombed, Turkey is trying to force NATO into all this shit.
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On November 25 2015 03:47 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 03:45 AngryMag wrote:On November 25 2015 03:22 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 03:16 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 03:14 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 03:10 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 02:53 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 02:36 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 01:38 oneofthem wrote:
[quote]
this is like shooting down jay walkers after ignoring them forever. both disproportionate and disruptive. Its like shooting someone who repeatedly trespasses in your yard with a missile strapped to his back. It could be done more tactfully but international law allows it. Going after and shooting at an aircraft that is still in your airspace is understandable if it doesn't want to leave. But following an aircraft that was in your airspace for under 10sec into another country (many km away from your own border) and shooting it down is wrong whichever way you look at it. Do you think the US never violated Iran's airspace during their war in Iraq? We don't know when Turkey engaged the Russian plane. They started warnings well before it reached the Turkish border so it is possible they engaged while it was in Turkish airspace. As for your other comment. There was no need for the aircraft to enter Turkish space, It was warned repeatedly and following previous incidents Turkey summoned the Russian ambassador and told him the next incursion would be met with force. If things transpired as Turkey claims then they were entirely within their right to shoot the plane down. The truth might come from another nations radar if they picked it up or else the fighters blackbox flight data. However if that shows Turkey in the right I ofc expect Russia to never release it. Maybe I should jog your memory a bit about some reactions when a Turkish aircraft was shot down for violating Syrian airspace: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872 The article mentions nothing about warnings being given. A rather important distinction. If it was warned and resumed regardless then my reaction to that is the same as now, you had it coming. Why did you ommit Erdogans words out of your reply. Here, I'll type it out again for you, and bold it. "A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack," he said. hint: pay close attention to the words 'short term border violation' and 'can never be a pretext' Russia repeatedly violates airspace Turkey tells the Russian ambassador next time will be met with force Russia repeats airspace violation My point remains the same. This is not an isolated incident. Would you like to estimate how often Turkey violated Greece airspace in the last year alone? Around 2000 times, yeah you read that right. Unfortunately there (again) won't be a backlash for Turkey. They got away with a lot of shit during that war, from boosting islamic nutjobs in Syria to fueling ethnic conflict within Turkey, shooting the russian plane down all the while they are busy to change the once secular Turkey into another state dominated by islam. Did I make any statements about the Turkish/Greek situation because I wasn't aware I made any.
No you justified shooting a plane down over a minor violation of airspace which is flatout ridiculous. If your standards become established worldwide there will be thousands of planes shot down each year.
What is right in case A must also be right in case B and shit. I am sure you are aware of that but have trouble to admit how little thought you put into your argument. That's ok just know that your line of argumentation is flawed and gladly not the international standard in these kind of disputes.
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On November 25 2015 03:51 xM(Z wrote:
@Gorsameth
that rhetoric of your is bullshit and you know it. you can not shoot down a plane in another country even if it passed through yours. that's an act of war under international law; lucky it happened on Syria's soil who is already at war right? ...
russians were bombing FSA, turkmen or whatever else you have there and they were supported by Turkey. so instead of looking at how their terrorist allies are getting bombed, Turkey is trying to force NATO into all this shit.
Not like Russia couldn't fly around the little tip of Turkey's airspace right?
You call shooting down the fighter an act of war. What is violating airspace with combat ready fighter-bombers under that?
Russia was repeatedly told not to cross through Turkish airspace during their missions.
Russia ignored it.
Turkey said they would shoot down the next place to do it
Russia ignored it
Turkey shot down the plane
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On November 25 2015 03:51 xM(Z wrote:
@Gorsameth
that rhetoric of your is bullshit and you know it. you can not shoot down a plane in another country even if it passed through yours. that's an act of war under international law; lucky it happened on Syria's soil who is already at war right? ...
russians were bombing FSA, turkmen or whatever else you have there and they were supported by Turkey. so instead of looking at how their terrorist allies are getting bombed, Turkey is trying to force NATO into all this shit.
If the stuff going on in the Ukraine has taught me anything, you can totally shoot down a passenger plane and not one will do anything about it.
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can you even grasp the idea that the plane went down in Syria not in Turkey?.
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On November 25 2015 03:53 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 03:47 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 03:45 AngryMag wrote:On November 25 2015 03:22 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 03:16 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 03:14 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 03:10 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 02:53 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 02:36 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]
Its like shooting someone who repeatedly trespasses in your yard with a missile strapped to his back.
It could be done more tactfully but international law allows it. Going after and shooting at an aircraft that is still in your airspace is understandable if it doesn't want to leave. But following an aircraft that was in your airspace for under 10sec into another country (many km away from your own border) and shooting it down is wrong whichever way you look at it. Do you think the US never violated Iran's airspace during their war in Iraq? We don't know when Turkey engaged the Russian plane. They started warnings well before it reached the Turkish border so it is possible they engaged while it was in Turkish airspace. As for your other comment. There was no need for the aircraft to enter Turkish space, It was warned repeatedly and following previous incidents Turkey summoned the Russian ambassador and told him the next incursion would be met with force. If things transpired as Turkey claims then they were entirely within their right to shoot the plane down. The truth might come from another nations radar if they picked it up or else the fighters blackbox flight data. However if that shows Turkey in the right I ofc expect Russia to never release it. Maybe I should jog your memory a bit about some reactions when a Turkish aircraft was shot down for violating Syrian airspace: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872 The article mentions nothing about warnings being given. A rather important distinction. If it was warned and resumed regardless then my reaction to that is the same as now, you had it coming. Why did you ommit Erdogans words out of your reply. Here, I'll type it out again for you, and bold it. "A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack," he said. hint: pay close attention to the words 'short term border violation' and 'can never be a pretext' Russia repeatedly violates airspace Turkey tells the Russian ambassador next time will be met with force Russia repeats airspace violation My point remains the same. This is not an isolated incident. Would you like to estimate how often Turkey violated Greece airspace in the last year alone? Around 2000 times, yeah you read that right. Unfortunately there (again) won't be a backlash for Turkey. They got away with a lot of shit during that war, from boosting islamic nutjobs in Syria to fueling ethnic conflict within Turkey, shooting the russian plane down all the while they are busy to change the once secular Turkey into another state dominated by islam. Did I make any statements about the Turkish/Greek situation because I wasn't aware I made any. No you justified shooting a plane down over a minor violation of airspace which is flatout ridiculous. If your standards become established worldwide there will be thousands of planes shot down each year. What is right in case A must also be right in case B and shit. I am sure you are aware of that but have trouble to admit how little thought you put into your argument. That's ok just know that your line of argumentation is flawed and gladly not the international standard in these kind of disputes.
repeated violations*
and yes if Turkey repeatedly violated Greek airspace and despite warnings kept doing so then I would consider Greece entirely in their right to respond.
Borders should be respected, especially by armed forced.
That's why those things tend to be negotiated over prior to military missions that cross another countries borders.
On November 25 2015 03:57 xM(Z wrote:
can you even grasp the idea that the plane went down in Syria not in Turkey?.
Planes have speeds and momentum, missiles have travel times.
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On November 25 2015 03:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 03:51 xM(Z wrote:
@Gorsameth
that rhetoric of your is bullshit and you know it. you can not shoot down a plane in another country even if it passed through yours. that's an act of war under international law; lucky it happened on Syria's soil who is already at war right? ...
russians were bombing FSA, turkmen or whatever else you have there and they were supported by Turkey. so instead of looking at how their terrorist allies are getting bombed, Turkey is trying to force NATO into all this shit. If the stuff going on in the Ukraine has taught me anything, you can totally shoot down a passenger plane and not one will do anything about it.
stop with that shit forfucksake. it's not even remotely comparable.
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On November 25 2015 03:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 03:51 xM(Z wrote:
@Gorsameth
that rhetoric of your is bullshit and you know it. you can not shoot down a plane in another country even if it passed through yours. that's an act of war under international law; lucky it happened on Syria's soil who is already at war right? ...
russians were bombing FSA, turkmen or whatever else you have there and they were supported by Turkey. so instead of looking at how their terrorist allies are getting bombed, Turkey is trying to force NATO into all this shit. If the stuff going on in the Ukraine has taught me anything, you can totally shoot down a passenger plane and not one will do anything about it.
Not comparable since the plane in the Ukraine wasn't shot down by official forces, but seperatists (who admittedly get pushed by Russia) but it is still a huge difference.
The russian plane was shot down by turkish airforce probably on direct orders from the secretary of defense. Huge difference
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On November 25 2015 03:57 xM(Z wrote:
can you even grasp the idea that the plane went down in Syria not in Turkey?.
that doesn't mean it wasn't shot while in Turkey. Planes go pretty fast, they can crash quite aways from where they're hit.
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On November 25 2015 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 03:53 AngryMag wrote:On November 25 2015 03:47 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 03:45 AngryMag wrote:On November 25 2015 03:22 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 03:16 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 03:14 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 03:10 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 02:53 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 02:36 zeo wrote:
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Going after and shooting at an aircraft that is still in your airspace is understandable if it doesn't want to leave.
But following an aircraft that was in your airspace for under 10sec into another country (many km away from your own border) and shooting it down is wrong whichever way you look at it. Do you think the US never violated Iran's airspace during their war in Iraq?
We don't know when Turkey engaged the Russian plane. They started warnings well before it reached the Turkish border so it is possible they engaged while it was in Turkish airspace. As for your other comment. There was no need for the aircraft to enter Turkish space, It was warned repeatedly and following previous incidents Turkey summoned the Russian ambassador and told him the next incursion would be met with force. If things transpired as Turkey claims then they were entirely within their right to shoot the plane down. The truth might come from another nations radar if they picked it up or else the fighters blackbox flight data. However if that shows Turkey in the right I ofc expect Russia to never release it. Maybe I should jog your memory a bit about some reactions when a Turkish aircraft was shot down for violating Syrian airspace: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872 The article mentions nothing about warnings being given. A rather important distinction. If it was warned and resumed regardless then my reaction to that is the same as now, you had it coming. Why did you ommit Erdogans words out of your reply. Here, I'll type it out again for you, and bold it. "A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack," he said. hint: pay close attention to the words 'short term border violation' and 'can never be a pretext' Russia repeatedly violates airspace Turkey tells the Russian ambassador next time will be met with force Russia repeats airspace violation My point remains the same. This is not an isolated incident. Would you like to estimate how often Turkey violated Greece airspace in the last year alone? Around 2000 times, yeah you read that right. Unfortunately there (again) won't be a backlash for Turkey. They got away with a lot of shit during that war, from boosting islamic nutjobs in Syria to fueling ethnic conflict within Turkey, shooting the russian plane down all the while they are busy to change the once secular Turkey into another state dominated by islam. Did I make any statements about the Turkish/Greek situation because I wasn't aware I made any. No you justified shooting a plane down over a minor violation of airspace which is flatout ridiculous. If your standards become established worldwide there will be thousands of planes shot down each year. What is right in case A must also be right in case B and shit. I am sure you are aware of that but have trouble to admit how little thought you put into your argument. That's ok just know that your line of argumentation is flawed and gladly not the international standard in these kind of disputes. repeated violations* and yes if Turkey repeatedly violated Greek airspace and despite warnings kept doing so then I would consider Greece entirely in their right to respond. Borders should be respected, especially by armed forced. That's why those things tend to be negotiated over prior to military missions that cross another countries borders. Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 03:57 xM(Z wrote:
can you even grasp the idea that the plane went down in Syria not in Turkey?. Planes have speeds and momentum, missiles have travel times.
exactly why what Turkey did was an act of war.
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EPT
