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Please guys, stay on topic. This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 25 2015 04:00 zlefin wrote: that doesn't mean it wasn't shot while in Turkey. Planes go pretty fast, they can crash quite aways from where they're hit. And they also travel really fast while the missile reaches them too. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 25 2015 04:00 xM(Z wrote: exactly why what Turkey did was an act of war. You are 100% correct. But repeatedly violating a nation's boarders with military forces after being told to stop doing so is also an act of aggression. Russia was playing with fire by doing so. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
On November 25 2015 04:00 zlefin wrote: that doesn't mean it wasn't shot while in Turkey. Planes go pretty fast, they can crash quite aways from where they're hit. it doesn't matter. you have to shoot it and the plane has to go down in your country to not be in violation of international laws. it's why nothing happens when war planes regularly cross other countries airspace. | ||
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Warfie
Norway2849 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 25 2015 04:02 xM(Z wrote: it doesn't matter. you have to shoot it and the plane has to go down in your country to not be in violation of international laws. it's why nothing happens when war planes regularly cross other countries airspace. Because they have approval to fly over from those nations, which is worked out in advance. If the US says don't send a warplane over our airspace, no one is going to do it. Russia was told to stop and didn't. | ||
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AngryMag
Germany1040 Posts
On November 25 2015 03:58 Gorsameth wrote: repeated violations* and yes if Turkey repeatedly violated Greek airspace and despite warnings kept doing so then I would consider Greece entirely in their right to respond. Borders should be respected, especially by armed forced. That's why those things tend to be negotiated over prior to military missions that cross another countries borders. Planes have speeds and momentum, missiles have travel times. Great job, you just started WWIII over nothing. Ten thousands of airspace violations each year would result in thousands of planes shot down each single year if we establish "your" rules, one of these incidents would surely escalate far enough to trigger a huge ass conflict. Your ego stands in the way of seeing sense and just admit that your initial point is nonsense and far from realistic to implement in the real world, whatever | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
Turkey does not belong with the west. Turkey invaded Cyprus. Turkey aids jihadis. Turkey is aiding ISIS. Turkey, a part of NATO, decides to go loose cannon and shoot down a Russian warplane in Syria to protect Turkey's jihadis. Amazing time we are living in. | ||
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CannonsNCarriers
United States638 Posts
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AngryMag
Germany1040 Posts
On November 25 2015 04:03 Warfie wrote: Will it even matter if Turkey was 'justified' to shoot it down, I mean no one gives a shit about the conventions and rules in this modern cold war type of conflict. I think what's more interesting is debating the consequences; Russia's response and NATO's stand on the issue NATO will only do a bit of rethoric, I would bet my left nut that no one in the NATO is even remotely happy with Ankara's actions in the last years. They are still important because of geostrategic stuff regarding the mideast and that is why they get away with a lot of bullshit but no NATO member will get itself drawn further into the conflict just because Ankara's temper tantrums and strong man rethoric. They are hellbent on getting rid of Assad and exploit NATO for that (after boosting islamic nutjobs didn't yield the desired results), it won't happen and NATO won't let itself get drawn into a conflict with Russia | ||
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CobaltBlu
United States919 Posts
The Soviet Union shot down many American planes during the Cold War for airspace violations and it never started a world war. Suggesting that Turkey defending its airspace will start one is silly. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
On November 25 2015 04:04 Plansix wrote: Because they have approval to fly over from those nations, which is worked out in advance. If the US says don't send a warplane over our airspace, no one is going to do it. Russia was told to stop and didn't. i'm not excusing the russians. they played in on the fact that turks could only half-ass the shooting of russian war planes, but saying Turkey was 100% right/justified in their action is stupid. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22675 Posts
On November 25 2015 04:11 CannonsNCarriers wrote: My theory is that this is more of a proxy war than is being let on. Russia's bombers aren't targeting ISIS, they are targeting regime opponent rebels. But Turkey has been supporting the regime opponent rebels (good reason to think Turkish nationals are amongst the rebels). I think Turkey shot this plane down to send a message to Russia: stop bombing our rebels. Its amazing how Turkey got a Russian pilot to violate their airspace so they could shoot him down. Especially considering they explicitly warned Russia this would happen if they continued. Was Turkey happy to take the opportunity? Maybe but Russia handed it to them on a silver platter. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 25 2015 04:14 xM(Z wrote: i'm not excusing the russians. they played in on the fact that turks could only half-ass the shooting of russian war planes, but saying Turkey was 100% right/justified in their action is stupid. Very few acts of violence are 100% justified or right. But this is what happens when nations are as cocky as Russia has been lately. At some point someone pushes back and lights your shit up. People have forgotten that this is how a lot of nations used to enforce their boarders. We used to be way more trigger happy back in the 60-70-80s. And Cannon's has it right that there is a proxy war going on. Turkey doesn't support Assad and assisting the rebels fighting him. And Russia isn't fighting ISIS like it claims and everyone knows it. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22675 Posts
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
On November 25 2015 04:17 Plansix wrote: Very few acts of violence are 100% justified or right. But this is what happens when nations are as cocky as Russia has been lately. At some point someone pushes back and lights your shit up. People have forgotten that this is how a lot of nations used to enforce their boarders. We used to be way more trigger happy back in the 60-70-80s. And Cannon's has it right that there is a proxy war going on. Turkey doesn't support Assad and assisting the rebels fighting him. And Russia isn't fighting ISIS like it claims and everyone knows it. i know, i said something similar in the previous page"... russians were bombing FSA, turkmen or whatever militias you have there, which were supported by Turkey...". still, some rules of engagement were broken. the future of warfare in that zone will definitely change. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4769 Posts
1)Military response -bombings will continue with assists from fighter jets. Russian will shot down any POTENTIAL threats to their machines. 2)Russia terminates any military coordination with Turkey immediately. 3)There will be other non military consequences not specyfied yet. Now the ball is on Turkey's side again, will they attempt to engage Russian jets when (eventualy) they cross their border again? | ||
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Narw
Poland884 Posts
Russians jets won't cross shit. | ||
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zeo
Serbia6343 Posts
On November 25 2015 04:14 xM(Z wrote: i'm not excusing the russians. they played in on the fact that turks could only half-ass the shooting of russian war planes, but saying Turkey was 100% right/justified in their action is stupid. Even if everyone believe's Turkeys story about the 1,4 miles of airspace the ground attack aircraft 'violated' we are expected to believe that in those 10 seconds a Turkish fighter jet was informed the target had entered Turkey, got authorisation from Ankara, informed the SU-24 that they will be shot down and fired that missile... all in 10 seconds... Anyway the Russian MOD put out a statement that anyone threatening Russian military aircraft during anti-terrorist operations will be destroyed. They have deployed the cruiser Moskva with the AA system 'Fort' (similar to the S-300) and it will be doing the destroying. Russian MOD map: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lUKIqOy.jpg) This has been confirmed by the Syrian Air Defence. No attempt was made by the Turkish aircraft to contact the SU-24, it was stuck by a missile in Syrian territory and fell 4km from the border. | ||
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hfglgg
Germany5372 Posts
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AngryMag
Germany1040 Posts
On November 25 2015 04:27 Silvanel wrote: Just read in Polish news: 1)Military response -bombings will continue with assists from fighter jets. Russian will shot down any POTENTIAL threats to their machines. 2)Russia terminates any military coordination with Turkey immediately. 3)There will be other non military consequences not specyfied yet. Now the ball is on Turkey's side again, will they attempt to engage Russian jets when (eventualy) they cross their border again? I guess it depends on what daddy NATO says behind closed doors. Their will be support rethoric for the public surely, but this isn't necessarily the same as what gets said behind closed doors. I guess they won't as NATO states have no interest to escalate the conflict with Russia further. The rebels Russia bombs have proven to be rather ineffective to get rid of Assad and the focus might have shifted more towards getting rid of the islamic state (no one on NATO side cared about their rampage in Syria in 2011-2013). | ||
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